CSO report on public-private pay gap

woodoo

tayto lover wrote: »

Is that true? Were the senior PS left untouched? Find it hard to believe but I have been shocked before.

Yes it is true, i remember being almost sick when i heard that Lenihan backtracked on the senior guys. It was scandalous and one of my lasting memories if Lenihan when i hear his name.

Idbatterim

I pay the same taxes as any private sector worker and I also use public services. Am I happy with the service provided? Overall no. But hammering ordinary people at the coalface trying their best to provide same services with reduced resources is counterproductive.

see i agree with this, public servants are also tax payers, and users of public services, i assume most of them posting on here, arent for the most part the ones totally creaming it off, thats why i fail to see how there isnt almost civil war in the PS, when they get pay cuts etc, and they and their unions start bitching, there would be no need for it, if those creaming it off actually took a hit for a change!

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

Would you go and **** how much more would they be paying in tax if you took what a private sector employee would have to pay to garnish a public sector pension...

Not a valid comparison, and here's why: http://www.tridentconsulting.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Pension-Shock-public-service-pensions1.pdf

cosbloodymick

Idbatterim wrote: »

see i agree with this, public servants are also tax payers, and users of public services, i assume most of them posting on here, arent for the most part the ones totally creaming it off, thats why i fail to see how there isnt almost civil war in the PS, when they get pay cuts etc, and they and their unions start bitching, there would be no need for it, if those creaming it off actually took a hit for a change!

Thats whats going on. The people at the top are hiding behind the people at the bottom to protect themselves. You never hear a highly paid Public servant on the Radio/TV/Newspaper defending their large salaries. Oh no! They will say nothing and let the nurses union reps to defend nurses or clerical officer union reps to defend clerical officers and use these people defending the lower and middle income to inadvertantly protect the top of the pay scale.

ballyharpat

not yet wrote: »

Report issued only this week said the difference is between 3-10% does not suit your argument thou.

The report issued this week does not take into account that I work as a HCA, as qualified as one can get in that line of work, and if I were working in the Public Sector, I would get 50% more money, as I stated in an earlier post, and many more HCA's around the country get paid minimum wage, making a HCA in the public sector get a wage of 200%+ for doing the same job.....

Farmer Pudsey

frankosw wrote: »

Without meaning to sound unpleasant you really are in no position to offer ecnonomic advice with that level of written English.

English has nothing to do with economics or maths also if I passed a comment like that about a public service poster my card would be marked I find it a bit condecending from someone that cannot understand basic maths

frankosw wrote: »

So what happened to the grand a week they were earning? Did they put it towards thier pensions? Fill out income tax returns or self assesment forms?

How much of that did builders pay in tax?

I knew of blokes i went to school with working cash in hand on building sites for 700 quid a week in the mid-1990's.....why were they paying no tax?

How many tradesmen now are tax compliant? Any work on my house i've had done in the last six months offered a cash in hand price or a "VAT inluded" price which differed substantially...some didnt even bother with the VAT included option and several wanted either cash or cheques made out to cash.

If you're worried about the state of teh irish economy at least make sure everybody is paying thier share and not just victimising public sector staff.

This is a real bit of a rant as I explianed in my post most of these were young people who had the atitude easy come easy go with money. If any tradesman suggested that you should report him however as a side issue it is different from the PS where your wages are there at the end of the week no matter what it very different when you are trying to put bread on the table and trying as a legitimate sole trade to deal with the black economy. There is many a ps servant that would request a cash price from a tradesman.

not yet wrote: »

Most PS workers I know earn the average industrial wage,or slighty above.

For this wage they are on the whole dedicated, professional, have long service, and never earned huge money in the boom.

Are we now to go trough this sh1t for another 5 years about cut wages across the board. Yes, I know we are in a deep recession but for christ sake do people really want to smash the ordinary PS worker. I am the first to say something needs to be done about consultants earning 250k a year or County managers earning more then the spanish prime minister but a guy on 25-35k a year ?.........................

If you check my post and alot of the posters pointing out about excessive levels of pay in the public service most make the point that only modest cuts should be entertained between 40-50K and incremental cuts above that with radical pay cuts for those earning 100k and above.

not yet wrote: »

Report issued only this week said the difference is between 3-10% does not suit your argument thou.

If you an earlier post of mine this was not quite the findings you should read the report in full.

fliball123 wrote: »

Attack the ball not the man

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes and also stop the grants the farmers get. These people are the real "entitled" but only contribute .9% of the entire tax take which is disgraceful. Not even 1%.
There are too many depending on the taxes paid by too few.

The reasons that farmers pay very little tax is that most are on low incomes also some comes in through the paye system on bigger farms as some family will be employees. Also it is hard to distinguish which is the tax that come from sole trades who have multiple area's of intrest. For instance are Farm contractors treated as Farmers or general sole traders.

The importance of farming can be seen last week with the Kerry Group Investment in Kildare. TBH it is nearly impossible to avoid tax on farm income as all cattle are on a central database, grain has to be accounted for as either merchants or farmers who finish cattle use it and all there cattle are paid for by cheque in the mart. In the last 10 years I have never seen a cash transaction for farm produce,

barneystinson

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you check my post and alot of the posters pointing out about excessive levels of pay in the public service most make the point that only modest cuts should be entertained between 40-50K and incremental cuts above that with radical pay cuts for those earning 100k and above.

So how much do you want to save with this measure, and how much are you proposing to cut by - "modest" is a very subjective word?!

Does anyone have a link to any kind of breakdown of the income distribution in PS jobs - i.e. how many workers there are in various income brackets like 0 - 30k, 30k - 40k, etc...?

Farmer Pudsey

barneystinson wrote: »

So how much do you want to save with this measure, and how much are you proposing to cut by - "modest" is a very subjective word?!

Does anyone have a link to any kind of breakdown of the income distribution in PS jobs - i.e. how many workers there are in various income brackets like 0 - 30k, 30k - 40k, etc...?

The average PS wage is 930 euro's there are 295,000 of them costing 14.3 billion. If we could save in the order of 20% over the next 3 years through targated wage cut on those above 40K and especially those above the average as well as through natural wastage and through targated redundancy schemes.

It is very hard to get hard stastics about the public srvice after all they do not know how many quango's there is.
They have made a start look at the money that will be saved by getting rid of town councils and combining city and county councils in Limerick, Waterford and Galway the figure is over 400 million I believe.

ezra_pound

OMD wrote: »

But if the private sector worker wanted to get the same pension entitlements, ie pension of 1/80 final salary (remember final salary) per year worked and 3/80 final salary X years worked lump sum. Plus a pension for his wife and kids. How much would he have to pay?

While you are at it how much extra would he have to pay into a permanent health insurance plan to get the same sick leave benefits as a PS worker.

Oh yeah and how much extra to get the equivalent of the in service death benefit?

Oh one final thing. Does pay include allowances?

In fairness this scheme is only for employees who joined public sector pre 1995.

The Pension for post 95 employees is years worked x 3/80 final salary minus 2 x state Pension

In other words what you state minus 460 per week!

barneystinson

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The average PS wage is 930 euro's there are 295,000 of them costing 14.3 billion. If we could save in the order of 20% over the next 3 years through targated wage cut on those above 40K and especially those above the average as well as through natural wastage and through targated redundancy schemes.

It is very hard to get hard stastics about the public srvice after all they do not know how many quango's there is.
They have made a start look at the money that will be saved by getting rid of town councils and combining city and county councils in Limerick, Waterford and Galway the figure is over 400 million I believe.

Holy Jebus, are we still stuck on "the average"?! :eek:

"The average" of a Clerical Officer in a Govt Department, a teacher, a nurse, and the Secretary General of the Dept of Finance and everyone in between is irrelevant - we need to bring down the total payroll, end of story. "The average" person doesn't exist, except for the purposes of statistics and arguments thereabout!

OK I found a breakdown of the numbers of Civil Servants in 2007 (from page 40 of the C&AG report on sick leave in 2009 - http://audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/69_Managing_Sickness_Absences.pdf)
If you plan on leaving people under 40k alone then in the Civil Service at least that means clerical officers and a good few EOs too. That's about 40% of the civil service.

And then you'll go gently on those between 40k - 50k, so that's the rest of the EO/SO grade staff and a majority of AO grade staff as well as some HEOs. That's about another 25%-30% of staff.

So now you're going to extract pretty much all of the hurt from about a third of the workforce in the civil service - a rule of thumb calculation based on the numbers in my own Dept (which has a similar grade distribution to what's on the table in the report) suggests that unless you propose to literally half the pay of staff at senior grades (PO, Asst Secretary and Secretary General) then you can't even get anywhere near to 10%.

Numerous posters on this thread have pointed out as a fact that it's actually at the lower end of the PS, which you want to leave alone, that the pay inequality is greatest. The simple fact is that there are people without even a leaving cert in some cases, who are paid over 35k to perform pretty basic clerical work which would never pay more than 25k-30k in the private sector - that's my take on it anyway. I don't see how a future benchmarking process could but reduce the pay level. (Interestingly but off-topic; the CO grade which makes up 35% of the workforce takes 49% of the sick days in the civil service.)

A feasible approach to me would be a cut of 2% (first 30k of income), 4% (next 30k of income) and 5% (remainder of income), in each of the next 2 years, so that's 4%, 8% and 10% over the 2 years, and bring the payroll cost down by about 6%. And apply it to PS pensioners too, so it brings down the pension payments cost too.

Japer

What about the perks people many in the public sector get. eg Gardai can retire after only 30 years service, and their average pension pot is worth 1.1 million - most of which they did not contribe to themselves.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-1664588.html

better pay, better holidays, more sickies, better pensions, more job security.....where is the incentive to take risks and create wealth in the economy / be a net contributer to government coffers?

barneystinson

Japer wrote: »

What about the perks people many in the public sector get. eg Gardai can retire after only 30 years service, and their average pension pot is worth 1.1 million - most of which they did not contribe to themselves.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-1664588.html

Ah yes, the old Garda pension chestnut - because that's the typical public sector pension isn't it... :rolleyes:

As if PS pensions weren't generous enough you're using an outlier that applies to what, 2-3% of the PS workforce to make your point; I have the impression of you foaming at the mouth and damaging your keyboard with the venom with which your hitting those keys...

Those Indo figures also overstate the actual economic cost of the Garda pension by over 50% (http://www.tridentconsulting.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Pension-Shock-public-service-pensions1.pdf); it's still very generous alright.

I still think the figure from my link is on the high side, because a post-1995 Garda will have paid A-class PRSI, and I don't think the value of the contributory pension that ends up being rolled up into that 26k Garda pension has been included, but I'm not a pensions expert.

Personally, given my age and circumstances, I'd much rather have my pension levy & contributions back if I could (I can't remember whether we've decided on the pension levy being a paycut or a pension contribution, it changes so often depending on what argument is going on at the time!), and be free to sort out my own pension provision in addition to my contributory state pension, which my A-class stamp gets me anyway.

Japer wrote: »

better pay, better holidays, more sickies, better pensions, more job security.....where is the incentive to take risks and create wealth in the economy / be a net contributer to government coffers?

Unlimited earning potential? Less restraints on engaging in extra work outside of your day-job? The likelihood of a more transferable / marketable skillset, and greater mobility.
The public sector and private sector aren't the same Japer; that's the case all over the world, not just Ireland, and I think it's very sad that you seem to see the entire PS and everyone in it as not being a "net contributer" whatever that is.

Riskymove

sarumite wrote: »

My understanding is that the pension levy doesn't actually affect the cost of pensions. It was specifically designed so that it wouldn't affect the cost of pensions as it is neither a contribution nor does it reduce the gross pay.

my inclusion of the pension levy in this context was about partially meeting the cost of pensions each year - i.e. the levy taken off PS workers could be put towards the cost of pensions

You are rigth that the levy will not actually reduce the gross cost of pensions

Farmer Pudsey

barneystinson wrote: »

Holy Jebus, are we still stuck on "the average"?! :eek:

.

You have to work off what are mathmatical figures. It amazes me the amount of people that cannot understan basic maths.

If the average is 940 euro/week nobody is disputing it then half the public service pay pot is paid above this 7.15 billion euro. There is no reason that alot of this could not be cut by the region of 25-30%. with some staff on 100K taking these kinds of hits. And yes part of it has to come from the semi=state sector that has suffered no cut in pay. In the last recession the government demanded super dividends from semi-state bodies. If this happened again then it could be used as a way to force the pay of semi state bodies down. It is the same with quango's.

No county manager should be on more than 100K and alot should be on less the same with hospital consultants if in Germany they pay them less than 100K so can we.

abd yes may some staff below 40K may have to take modest cuts but the bulk of the fat and the largess is at the top where most of the travel expenses are as well.

It was a disgrace that public service managers did not take a pay cut the same as the rest. how can we sit accross from senior French and German CS who are earning little more than half the irish rate.

Riskymove

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If the average is 940 euro/week nobody is disputing it then half the public service pay pot is paid above this 7.15 billion euro.

nope

thats the median, which is lower, so less than half are paid over the average

There is no reason that alot of this could not be cut by the region of 25-30%. with some staff on 100K taking these kinds of hits.

that's just unrealistic

And yes part of it has to come from the semi=state sector that has suffered no cut in pay.

while I dont disagree that pay rates remain high in semi-states, their wages are not part of the PS wage bill so wont really affect efforts at tackling the deficit.

itzme

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You have to work off what are mathmatical figures. It amazes me the amount of people that cannot understan basic maths.

If the average is 940 euro/week nobody is disputing it then half the public service pay pot is paid above this 7.15 billion euro. There is no reason that alot of this could not be cut by the region of 25-30%. with some staff on 100K taking these kinds of hits. And yes part of it has to come from the semi=state sector that has suffered no cut in pay. In the last recession the government demanded super dividends from semi-state bodies. If this happened again then it could be used as a way to force the pay of semi state bodies down. It is the same with quango's.

I'm afraid its not a lack of understanding of basic maths that is the problem it is where this basic form of maths is applicable and what information, meaning and substance can get obtained from it.

If you use the average/median and are going to attribute any meaning to it, you first have to examine its statistical significance. This includes calculating the standard deviation or variance in the data. If these are high then there is little meaning to the data. That is the whole reason for this CSO report, it is trying to use regression modelling to try and overcome the problems with interpreting average/medians. Take a look at the first two paragraphs of the CSO report

Comparing pay in the public and private sectors is not a straightforward task. A range of different results can be derived depending on the methodology or model specification used to estimate pay differentials. Complexity also arises as the composition of the two sectors are heterogeneous, comprising of a variety of different industries, occupations and workers who themselves come with a variety of education, experience and skill sets. Using simple average mean (or median) hourly or weekly pay to compare earnings across the public and private sectors will therefore, most likely, be misleading. For example, pay differentials may arise from a range of structural differences: skill levels required for a particular job; experience; qualifications; or location. Typically the relative distribution of men and women also has an impact. For these reasons CSO have employed a number of multivariate statistical techniques in an attempt to standardize these effects and present comparable data.

For a breakdown of the actual pay in the public service please take a look http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0723/howlin-defends-public-service-pay-increments.html
Now if you honestly think that a 25-30% reduction can be achieved I would assume you would do some maths from these figures and show how it can be done.

Again I don't disagree with reductions in PS pay or tackling the pension problem. I always have a problem with the bandying about of random (in my eyes) figures like 30%. Especially since there is no consideration of the other side of the balance sheet. Take 30% out of PS pay would not save 30% of the 14(ish)bn, it would save 15% at best (this has been explained many many times on boards).

fliball123

cosbloodymick wrote: »

I am well aware of the hardship in the private sector and anyone that loses their job has my utmost sympathy.
With regard to your point regarding allowances and increments, I would also prefer if their were none of either. But unfortunately in the Public Sector workers have to undergo an incremental progression to get to the proper rate for the job they do. If the powers that be don't want an incremental scale and a never ending rising Public sector pay bill they can put staff on the correct rate for the job (as what happens in most private sector companies). Leo Varadkar who recently called for an end or suspension of increments is in the happy position of starting at the rate for the job he does, which happens to be remunerated at double what most Public servants earn.
I also agree some of the allowances are wrong, especially the ones politicians get, but unfortunately over the years rather than give a pay rise for extra work they gave an allowance which in my opinion should never have been the way to go about things.
I pay the same taxes as any private sector worker and I also use public services. Am I happy with the service provided? Overall no. But hammering ordinary people at the coalface trying their best to provide same services with reduced resources is counterproductive.

Dont make it personal about Varadkar, IMO Varadkar is has his finger on the pulse of the mood of the people who voted his party the biggest party in gov. He may be as you say earning the top of his salary..We are broke and borrowing and yet increments some of which reached 1/4 of a billion are still being paid over the last 4/5 years and yet every December the tax payer and services get hit continuously the PS got one hit of a pay cut at about 7% and where asked to pay a bit more for a pension that in the majority of instances will never be covered by what they pay either by the levy or their other pensions contributions. See this is the other thing...People in general dont want ps workers earning at the lower end to be hit but anyone earning from say 30k onwards can take a hit we cant afford it. The public sector is out of kilter with other countries in the OCED and with the private sector...Yet in December the tax payer will pay more and services will yet again be slashed....so paying more for less...How long did the PS think people would take this..we are now 5 years into it and finally we are getting pressure from the troika to say we are paying too much to our public sector...I would like to leave cpa alone and when it finishes a 3rd bout of benchmarking and bring the PS back in line to whats going on in the country

fliball123

not yet wrote: »

So why don't all the people so desperate to save money go chase this..

I believe they are chasing it.. But how hard and how expensive would it be to have someone monitoring babysitting, giving grinds...even things that are very very easy to spot such as building work most of the builders are legitimate and will do cash deals providing no one is inspecting or if they dont get rumbled...It would cost a hell of a lot to actually do...The best way to tackle it is to stop taxing the fcuk out of work which when you take the costs of doing work in this country is very high.

itzme

fliball123 wrote: »

every December the tax payer and services get hit continuously the PS got one hit of a pay cut at about 7% and where asked to pay a bit more for a pension that in the majority of instances will never be covered by what they pay either by the levy or their other pensions contributions.

In another thread I addressed this misconception that you keep propagating, please stop telling this mistruth about the pension levy. For clarity I am quoting the act and linking to it again.
The truth is that the contributions from the pension levy do not go to the pension for public servants and do not give any additional benefit to the payees pension themselves. The money goes to the exchequer. To prove this, I bring your attention to page 9 of the act

15 7.—
(1) Nothing in this Act is to be read as conferring any
additional benefit payable, or that may become payable, under a public service pension scheme.
(2) A deduction under section 2 is not a pension contribution for the purposes of the Pensions Act 1990.

ardmacha

but anyone earning from say 30k onwards can take a hit we cant afford it.

Presumably if people in the PS earning over €30k can "afford" to "take a hit" then everyone earning over €30k can afford to pay more tax?

Gumbo

fliball123 wrote: »

anyone earning from say 30k onwards public ans private can take a hit

I look forward to the tax payer paying my mortgage again then.
After the last round of cuts, i then qualified for FIS. Might get more now in January

Head The Wall

cosbloodymick wrote: »

But unfortunately in the Public Sector workers have to undergo an incremental progression to get to the proper rate for the job they do.

Another deluded poster that thinks everybody should start on the top of their scale because that is the correct rate for it. Obviously gaining experience (supposedly, according to PMDS) doesn't factor into your thought process.

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Pension Levy of 7.5% + Pay cut of 8.5 % = 15% reduction aswell as the USC and other tax increases.
The Taoiseachs right hand men walked into his office and said the public sector pay cuts don't apply to me and my senior public sector colleagues and amazingly the Taoiseach agreed. Quelle surprise!!
One rule for the elite another for the rest of us

You don't do cold hard facts very well do you,

Public Servants earning from 125,000 – 165,000 will see an 8% pay reduction.

You must be on a pretty good wage if you received an 8.5% cut

cosbloodymick wrote: »

It is true. They appealed to Brian Lenihan on the grounds that they no longer got a bonus so they should be spared the pay cut and he acquiesced.

You may not like to hear it but the reason they got it reversed was because they considered the bonus as part of their core pay. This is the very same reason all these ridiculous allowances and "increments" are still in place. That makes you a hypocrite if you ask me.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The average PS wage is 930 euro's there are 295,000 of them costing 14.3 billion. If we could save in the order of 20% over the next 3 years through targated wage cut on those above 40K and especially those above the average as well as through natural wastage and through targated redundancy schemes.

Farmer Pudsey you constantly ask for wage reductions but not on the lower paid when they are the ones that get overpaid the most. What's your connection to this situation because if you really cared about it you would want to get rid of all waste but especially the waste that is so out of kilter with comparable roles elsewhere?

Gumbo

Head The Wall wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey you constantly ask for wage reductions but not on the lower paid when they are the ones that get overpaid the most. What's your connection to this situation because if you really cared about it you would want to get rid of all waste but especially the waste that is so out of kilter with comparable roles elsewhere?

Are you really qualified to ask that question considering you neither reside in or pay taxes in Ireland?

southsiderosie

Head The Wall wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey you constantly ask for wage reductions but not on the lower paid when they are the ones that get overpaid the most. What's your connection to this situation because if you really cared about it you would want to get rid of all waste but especially the waste that is so out of kilter with comparable roles elsewhere?

kceire wrote: »

Are you really qualified to ask that question considering you neither reside in or pay taxes in Ireland?

MOD NOTE:

People in this forum do not need to justify their 'connection' to a situation in order to discuss it, so please stop with this line of argument/questioning.

Farmer Pudsey

Riskymove wrote: »

nope

thats the median, which is lower, so less than half are paid over the average




that's just unrealistic




while I dont disagree that pay rates remain high in semi-states, their wages are not part of the PS wage bill so wont really affect efforts at tackling the deficit.

Sorry that is the average, total pay bill divided by the no of workers. Haif the wage bill is above this and half below.The median is totally different this is where you try ( and you can only try to find what wage is the middle worker it is on 295K workers divides by 2. This serves little or no purpose in calculating paybills or costs.

Anything that affect public sector workers is unrealistic as far as I can see.

There is no reason that semi-state bodies cannot make a contribution in the form of a super divident to the exchequer. This happened in the late eighties where I think Ray MacSharry as Finance Minster made Telecom Eireann ( even though it was looseing money) and the ESB pay a dividend to the exchequer after the state is the only shareholder in these bodies. If as the result of this these bodies have to reduce pay so be it The level of pay at the ESB, Board Gais, RTE the DAA etc is way out of line with private Industry.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

As usual, a thread involving the public sector is turning uncivil. If you cannot discuss the topic without leveling personal insults and snide remarks at other posters, then don't post.

frankosw wrote: »

Without meaning to sound unpleasant you really are in no position to offer ecnonomic advice with that level of written English.

Completely inappropriate. This is the Politics forum, not the Spelling and Grammar forum.

fliball123 wrote: »

Attack the ball not the man

sarumite wrote: »

If you are going to attack someone on their spelling and typographical errors, you really need to be beyond reproach yourself. Otherwise you end up looking like a foolish hypocrite.

If you see posts that you feel are insulting or inappropriate, please report them rather than chastising on-thread. The latter veers into backseat modding territory.

itzme

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Sorry that is the average, total pay bill divided by the no of workers. Haif the wage bill is above this and half below.The median is totally different this is where you try ( and you can only try to find what wage is the middle worker it is on 295K workers divides by 2. This serves little or no purpose in calculating paybills or costs.

I'm sorry but your understanding of average is wrong. An average is not a guaranteed 50/50. Only if the distribution of the input data is a normal distribution is this true. Please take a look at page 20 (Figure 1.16) of the CSO report which demonstrates that the data is not normally distributed. So it is fair to say that this 50/50 split you are claiming is incorrect.

Also please take a look at the link I posted in response to you which shows the breakdown of numbers and wage groupings in the PS where you can work out the actual breakdown. To help you out I've done it for you, it shows that for 930/940 (you seem to switch between the two) a week wage you are quoting which works out at 48.8k a year (ish) then 60% of the workforce is under this amount with 40% above. (in this case I have taken all those earning below 50k, so it would be fair to say that it is not 60.54/39.46 split but less than 60%, but at the same time I would find it crazy for someone to try and imply that 10% of the workforce earn between 49-50 either.)

Farmer Pudsey

Head The Wall wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey you constantly ask for wage reductions but not on the lower paid when they are the ones that get overpaid the most. What's your connection to this situation because if you really cared about it you would want to get rid of all waste but especially the waste that is so out of kilter with comparable roles elsewhere?

I will try to answer even though maybe I should not. My connection is that I am an ordinary tax payer I am both a PAYE worker and Farm part time.

I think that there is a misconception out there about the issues concerning our problems. If we look at other countries the level of pay at higher levels in the PS are nowhere near in Ireland. Our Semi-state bodies have over the last 10 years failed to contribute anything to the economy (privatising them will not rectify the issue as we cann see from Eircom/Aer Lingus and Greencore) Rather at the top of the PS we again need to employ people (not necessarily the best and brightest as this has failed) who have an intrest in Public Service and not in there pocket

When I see a public servant quoting what they will recieve in the private sector and not taking into account there present term and conditions my attitude is let them off to the faraway green hills. Guards/Teacher/Middle Management in the public service now earn as much if not more than people middle management in the private sector.

I am absolutly astonished that so called unionised workers can allow a situtation where
1. we will have a two tier Public service wage rates because as long as mine are not touched it alright jack
2 Unions are no longer to any great extent involved in the private sector and do not seem to care about these workers
3.There cannot see that we cannot pay present rates of pay and not affect services
4 A Cabal of politicians/senior PS/unions/semi-state management fail to see the connection between reward and work and what is right for the country.
5 What about our childern what will this country be like in 10 years time

Riskymove

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Sorry that is the average, total pay bill divided by the no of workers. Haif the wage bill is above this and half below..

er..well perhaps I just dont see what point you were trying to make then by "half the public service pay pot is paid above this 7.15 billion euro". we know what the paybill is and we know what half of the paybill is. What point are you making?

the average is as you say, but I also dont see how its any use to "calculate pay costs"...you need to know the overall cost and the number of workers in the first place in order to calculate it!

the median is lower than the average in this report and therefore, in this case, the person "in the middle" earns less than the average therefore more people earn below the average than above- a more relevant point in these discussions

Head The Wall

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I will try to answer even though maybe I should not. My connection is that I am an ordinary tax payer I am both a PAYE worker and Farm part time.

I think that there is a misconception out there about the issues concerning our problems. If we look at other countries the level of pay at higher levels in the PS are nowhere near in Ireland. Our Semi-state bodies have over the last 10 years failed to contribute anything to the economy (privatising them will not rectify the issue as we cann see from Eircom/Aer Lingus and Greencore) Rather at the top of the PS we again need to employ people (not necessarily the best and brightest as this has failed) who have an intrest in Public Service and not in there pocket

When I see a public servant quoting what they will recieve in the private sector and not taking into account there present term and conditions my attitude is let them off to the faraway green hills. Guards/Teacher/Middle Management in the public service now earn as much if not more than people middle management in the private sector.

I am absolutly astonished that so called unionised workers can allow a situtation where
1. we will have a two tier Public service wage rates because as long as mine are not touched it alright jack
2 Unions are no longer to any great extent involved in the private sector and do not seem to care about these workers
3.There cannot see that we cannot pay present rates of pay and not affect services
4 A Cabal of politicians/senior PS/unions/semi-state management fail to see the connection between reward and work and what is right for the country.
5 What about our childern what will this country be like in 10 years time

That still doesn't answer my question, benchmarking should be imposed on everyone. Those still underpaid should get increases while those overpaid should get decreased. If that happened it would be the lower paid getting cut the most backed up by the recent reports.

You still don't seem to accept that they should be cut alongside the rest of those that are overpaid.

I can't ever see the unions agreeing to a benchmarking situation where some staff get increases while others get decreases. While this kind of thing goes on we have porters earning more than paramedics, it's madness

Riskymove

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I am absolutly astonished that so called unionised workers can allow a situtation where
1. we will have a two tier Public service wage rates because as long as mine are not touched it alright jack

tbh this is human nature, it has happened many times before in pay deals

these other future PS workers dont exist yet so it is easier to screw them

2 Unions are no longer to any great extent involved in the private sector and do not seem to care about these workers

imo it is the other way around, in the good years many workers did not see any benefit in a union and numbers fell. We also saw the introduction of many multinationals with union unfriendly approaches

I would say that there are still many areas of the private sector unionised - indeed most disuptes/labour court cases appear to involve private sector

Unions such as Unite and SIPTU are particularly active

itzme

A more entertaining example of the danger of putting importance on averages without examining the underlying data its worth checking out hans rosling
http://www.usablellc.net/the-joy-of-statistics.
What is the average number of legs for Swedish people? 1.9999
That means that the vast majority of people in Sweden have more than the average number of legs.
We should be wary of placing significance or our own interpretation on averages, and any scientist or mathematician is.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I will try to answer even though maybe I should not. My connection is that I am an ordinary tax payer I am both a PAYE worker and Farm part time.

Rather at the top of the PS we again need to employ people (not necessarily the best and brightest as this has failed) who have an intrest in Public Service and not in there pocket

#

You see I have a problem with this type of sentiment.

I could come on here and say that instead of paying farmers money from Europe that would be better spent on say public sector salaries or social welfare, that the farmers should survive on subsistence farming because of their "love of the land", I would be rightly castigated. Or that musicians should not be paid because of their love of what they do.

Yet many many times, posters come on here and say that for reasons of "public service" or "patriotism", public servants should settle for second-best salaries. These posters think there is nothing wrong with expecting someone else to survive on less for the "good of the country" and for "public service".

I am not talking about those who argue (rightly in some cases) that public servants are overpaid because of comparisons with Europe or the private sector - at least those are empirical arguments that can be dismissed with facts. But to argue that somehow that public servants should accept less because of a love of public service doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense when you similar demands are not made of other groups.

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

#

You see I have a problem with this type of sentiment.

I could come on here and say that instead of paying farmers money from Europe that would be better spent on say public sector salaries or social welfare, that the farmers should survive on subsistence farming because of their "love of the land", I would be rightly castigated. Or that musicians should not be paid because of their love of what they do.

Yet many many times, posters come on here and say that for reasons of "public service" or "patriotism", public servants should settle for second-best salaries. These posters think there is nothing wrong with expecting someone else to survive on less for the "good of the country" and for "public service".

I agree with your argument, however it does go both ways. Its quite often you will hear someone on here say "well next time your house in on fire and look for a public servant fireman......" or "next time you are in the hospital" etc. Both sides play emotive argument. If you can't (and shouldn't) use 'public service' as a reason for supporting a reduction in PS pay it should equally apply that you can't use the fact that an employee does a 'public service' as a reason to why that reduction should come from somewhere else in the budget and not in PS pay.

Head The Wall

Riskymove wrote: »

I would say that there are still many areas of the private sector unionised - indeed most disuptes/labour court cases appear to involve private sector

Unions such as Unite and SIPTU are particularly active

70.4% of the PS are in a union while it's 19.4% for the private sector.

tayto lover

Head The Wall wrote: »

70.4% of the PS are in a union while it's 19.4% for the private sector.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

Martin Niemöller

cosbloodymick

Head The Wall wrote: »

Another deluded poster that thinks everybody should start on the top of their scale because that is the correct rate for it. Obviously gaining experience (supposedly, according to PMDS) doesn't factor into your thought process.




You don't do cold hard facts very well do you,



You must be on a pretty good wage if you received an 8.5% cut






You may not like to hear it but the reason they got it reversed was because they considered the bonus as part of their core pay. This is the very same reason all these ridiculous allowances and "increments" are still in place. That makes you a hypocrite if you ask me.




Farmer Pudsey you constantly ask for wage reductions but not on the lower paid when they are the ones that get overpaid the most. What's your connection to this situation because if you really cared about it you would want to get rid of all waste but especially the waste that is so out of kilter with comparable roles elsewhere?

You are making my argument for me. You can't have it both ways. You either accept an incremental scale or you don't. If you don't then you accept that one starts at the rate for the job. If you do then you accept an incremental scale of progression. Which is it?

Less of the personal abuse please. I do not consider my position in any way hypocritical. The senior civil servants did not make their case on the grounds that their bonus was core pay. There was no mention of core pay at the time. The reason they were not cut the same as the rest of the Public Service is because they had the ministers ear, simple as.
For what were they getting bonus's anyway? bankrupting the country?
If only the frontline could get a bonus. We don't even get as much as a cracker at Christmas!!

frankosw

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I will try to answer even though maybe I should not. My connection is that I am an ordinary tax payer I am both a PAYE worker and Farm part time.

I think that there is a misconception out there about the issues concerning our problems. If we look at other countries the level of pay at higher levels in the PS are nowhere near in Ireland. Our Semi-state bodies have over the last 10 years failed to contribute anything to the economy (privatising them will not rectify the issue as we cann see from Eircom/Aer Lingus and Greencore) Rather at the top of the PS we again need to employ people (not necessarily the best and brightest as this has failed) who have an intrest in Public Service and not in there pocket

When I see a public servant quoting what they will recieve in the private sector and not taking into account there present term and conditions my attitude is let them off to the faraway green hills. Guards/Teacher/Middle Management in the public service now earn as much if not more than people middle management in the private sector.

I am absolutly astonished that so called unionised workers can allow a situtation where
1. we will have a two tier Public service wage rates because as long as mine are not touched it alright jack
2 Unions are no longer to any great extent involved in the private sector and do not seem to care about these workers
3.There cannot see that we cannot pay present rates of pay and not affect services
4 A Cabal of politicians/senior PS/unions/semi-state management fail to see the connection between reward and work and what is right for the country.
5 What about our childern what will this country be like in 10 years time

Whoah..the largest union in Ireland is SIPTU..it is a private-sector union.

cosbloodymick

Head The Wall wrote: »

Another deluded poster that thinks everybody should start on the top of their scale because that is the correct rate for it. Obviously gaining experience (supposedly, according to PMDS) doesn't factor into your thought process.




You don't do cold hard facts very well do you,



You must be on a pretty good wage if you received an 8.5% cut






You may not like to hear it but the reason they got it reversed was because they considered the bonus as part of their core pay. This is the very same reason all these ridiculous allowances and "increments" are still in place. That makes you a hypocrite if you ask me.




Farmer Pudsey you constantly ask for wage reductions but not on the lower paid when they are the ones that get overpaid the most. What's your connection to this situation because if you really cared about it you would want to get rid of all waste but especially the waste that is so out of kilter with comparable roles elsewhere?

fliball123 wrote: »

Dont make it personal about Varadkar, IMO Varadkar is has his finger on the pulse of the mood of the people who voted his party the biggest party in gov. He may be as you say earning the top of his salary..We are broke and borrowing and yet increments some of which reached 1/4 of a billion are still being paid over the last 4/5 years and yet every December the tax payer and services get hit continuously the PS got one hit of a pay cut at about 7% and where asked to pay a bit more for a pension that in the majority of instances will never be covered by what they pay either by the levy or their other pensions contributions. See this is the other thing...People in general dont want ps workers earning at the lower end to be hit but anyone earning from say 30k onwards can take a hit we cant afford it. The public sector is out of kilter with other countries in the OCED and with the private sector...Yet in December the tax payer will pay more and services will yet again be slashed....so paying more for less...How long did the PS think people would take this..we are now 5 years into it and finally we are getting pressure from the troika to say we are paying too much to our public sector...I would like to leave cpa alone and when it finishes a 3rd bout of benchmarking and bring the PS back in line to whats going on in the country

I mentioned Leo Varadkar because he said increments should be stopped.
Easy for him when he is not relying on them. This is the same Leo who promised pre election "not another red cent to the banks".
See how that turned out!!

Farmer Pudsey

frankosw wrote: »

Whoah..the largest union in Ireland is SIPTU..it is a private-sector union.

Yes it is the largest however most of its members are in the state services I imagine.

Farmer Pudsey

Just came accross this now to put it in prespective the prime Minster of Spain earns a little over 100K i believe puts it in perspective



Carlow
County manager (Tom Barry): €132,511
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Vet inspector: €94,392
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €81,232
* What the top 10 earn: €1,103,986

Cavan
County manager (Jack Keyes): €132,511
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
5 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €995,696

Clare
County manager (Tom Coughlan): €142,469
Chief veterinary inspector: €93,436 to €109,927
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
2 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,025,383

Cork City
City manager (Tim Lucey): €153,260
Assistant city manager: €90,453 to €106,900
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
3 heads of function: €90,453 to €106,900
* What the top 10 earn: €1,115,360

Cork County
County manager (Martin Riordan): €162,062
3 divisional managers: €125,885
Chief vet officer: €93,436 to €111,177
10 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
1 county engineer: €81,077 to €98,379
4 vet inspectors: €60,555 to €94,392
19 senior professionals (engineer/architect/planner/solicitor/scientist): €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,185,394

Donegal
County manager (Seamus Neely): €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
4 senior engineers: €74,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,025,437

Dublin City
City manager (John Tierney): €189,301
City engineer/director of traffic: €142,469
Assistant city manager: €132,511
Head of finance: €132,511
Personnel officer: €132,511
Executive manager: €90,453 to €106,900
Dublin city librarian: €90,453 to €106,900
Financial accountant: €90,453 to €106,900
ICT manager: €90,453 to €106,900
* What the top 10 earn: €1,263,803

Dún Laoighre-Rathdown
County manager (Owen Keegan): €153,260
8 directors of services: €106,900
County law agent: €95,540
County architect: €95,540
* What the top 10 earn: €1,104,000

Fingal
County manager (David O’Connor): €162,062
6 directors of services: €106,900
County architect: €95,540
Law agent: €95,540
5 senior engineers (five of them on the top point of the scale): €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior planners: €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,081,714

Galway city
City manager (Joe O’Neill, acting): €132,511
3 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance and ICT: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
2 management accountants: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €992,615

Galway county
County manager (Martina Moloney): €142,469
5 directors of service: €90,453 to €106,900
2 veterinary inspectors:€60,555 to €94,392
Chief fire officer €76,884 to €91,472
6 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,044,342

Kerry
County manager (Tom Curran): €142,469
6 directors of services: €106,900 (one not in place; seconded to Limerick Regeneration Agency)
Law agent: €95,540
Veterinary inspector: €94,392
Head of finance: €90,453
* What the top 10 earn: €1,064,254

Kildare
County manger (Michael Malone): €153,260
6 directors of service: €86,408 to €106,900
6 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,056,011

Kilkenny
County manager (Joe Crockett): €142,469
3 directors of service: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,392
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,012,989

Laois
County manager (Peter Carey): €132,511
2 director of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Financial management accountant: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €888,796

Leitrim
County manager (Jackie Maguire): €132,511
4 director of services: €90,453 to €106,900 Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,392
* What the top 10 earn: €1,022,754

Limerick city
City manager (Tom Mackey): €142,469
4 directors of service: €98,677 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €81,886 to €87,117
Senior executive officer: €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,006, 258

Limerick county
County manager (Gerry Behan, acting): €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,393
5 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Regional waste co-ordinator: €73,223 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,052,496

Longford
County manager (Tim Caffrey): €132,511
2 directors of services (plus one acting director of services): €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Senior resident engineer: €80,076
2 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
4 senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
8 senior executive engineers: €62,276 to €78,501
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
2 resident engineers: €59,680 to €68,030
Site technician: €48,147 to €52,363
* What the top 10 earn: €1,066,529

Louth
County manager (Conn Murray) €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
6 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
11 in senior executive officer/financial management accountant/senior social worker/county librarian/head of IT posts: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,025,437

Mayo
County manager (Peter Hynes): €142,469
County engineer: €90,453 to €106,900
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Project resident engineer: €88,698
Vet inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
* What the top 10 earn: €1,054,076

Meath
County Manager (Tom Dowling) €153,260
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 €106,900
County Vet: €88,898 to €98,945
Project resident engineer: €88,698
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
4 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,049,637

Monaghan
County manager (David Fallon): €132,511
2 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Acting director of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
Senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €999,890

North Tipp
County manager (Joe MacGrath): €132,511
3 directors of service: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
4 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,002,971

Offaly
County manager (Pat Gallagher): €132,511
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €995,696

Roscommon
County manager (Frank Dawson): €132,511
3 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,002,971

Sligo County
County manager (Hubert Kearns): €136,509
3 directors of services: €99,970 to €109,268
Senior executive officer: €104,885
Project engineer: €96,167
2 senior engineers: €86,818 to €92,919
Veterinary inspector: €91,336
Chief librarian: €86,573
* What the top 10 earn: €1,012,872

Sligo Borough
Acting director of services: €102,787
Senior executive officer: €81,234
4 senior executive engineers: €71,824 to €76,118
Executive engineer and acting senior executive engineers: €64,373
Executive engineer: €62,374
3 administrative officers: €59,324 to €61,420
* What the top 10 earn: €653,182

South Dublin
County manager (Philomena Poole, acting): €162,062
8 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Project engineer (construction): €87,117
County architect: €78,368 to €95,540
Law agent: €78,368 to €95,540
15 in senior engineer/senior architect/senior planner/parks superintendent/solicitor/health and safety adviser posts: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,104,379

South Tipp
County manager (Billy McEvoy): €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
4 veterinary inspectors: €60,555 to €94,393
* What the top 10 earn: €1,054,541

Waterford City Council
City manager (Michael Walsh): €132,511
3 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Senior engineer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior architect: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
City librarian: €64,426 to €84,036
Head of information systems: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €989,534

Waterford County Council
County manager (Denis McCarthy): €132,511
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
County librarian: €68,496
4 senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €973,994

Westmeath
County manager (Danny McLoughlin) €142,469
2 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,392
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
County librarian: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €990,065

Wexford
County manager (Eddie Breen): €142,469
3 directors of services: €102,787 to €106,900
Head of finance: €94,565
County veterinary officer: €94,392
2 senior engineers: €87,117
Chief fire officer: €84,500
Senior engineer: €84,500
* What the top 10 earn: €991,247

Wicklow
County manager (Eddie Sheehy): €142,469
6 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Law agent: €78,368 to €95,540
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
* What the top 10 earn: €1,080,701

frankosw

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes it is the largest however most of its members are in the state services I imagine.

You imagine wrong.

SIPTU is a private sector union.

Farmer Pudsey

frankosw wrote: »

You imagine wrong.

SIPTU is a private sector union.

Nurses, health service professionals. local authority workers , semi state workers etc.

barneystinson

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Just came accross this now to put it in prespective the prime Minster of Spain earns a little over 100K i believe puts it in perspective

Another gem out of you Pudsey; how does the Spanish PM's salary have any relevance for comparison with Irish local authority staff - unless the "perspective" you're seeking is of the "look, there's some apples & oranges!" variety...?!

The only valid comparison is either what their equivalent (if any) in the Irish private sector earns, or what their equivalents in other countries' local authorities earn...

By the way I'm not suggesting that the figures above aren't crazy money for some of those jobs, but you make your own argument look kinda silly when you make wild / childish / lazy comparisons (like where you harped on about people not understanding simple maths when you were the one struggling with the significance of the average - by the way you only addressed the first line of a lengthy post I made...).

Head The Wall

Yes maybe he should compare it with Enda Kenny, 92,000 vs 200,000. Obviously it's down to the cost of living

itzme

Head The Wall wrote: »

Yes maybe he should compare it with Enda Kenny, 92,000 vs 200,000. Obviously it's down to the cost of living

Well obviously our taoiseach should be paid 92k then, well that's that sorted.

Hang on isn't the leader of Germany paid something different, maybe we should pay him that salary, but then there is Portugal and America and the UK and........

There was quite a decent thread on this topic already not so long ago, one that got past the simplistic comparisons of absolute pay which are generally only brought up to forward a particular perspective. Similar to comparing "average" pay.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056639104

barneystinson

Head The Wall wrote: »

Yes maybe he should compare it with Enda Kenny, 92,000 vs 200,000. Obviously it's down to the cost of living

At least that's a valid comparison!

cosbloodymick

barneystinson wrote: »

At least that's a valid comparison!

Yeah, lets copy the Spanish! Oh hang on they are bankrupt also!!

cosbloodymick

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Just came accross this now to put it in prespective the prime Minster of Spain earns a little over 100K i believe puts it in perspective



Carlow
County manager (Tom Barry): €132,511
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Vet inspector: €94,392
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €81,232
* What the top 10 earn: €1,103,986

Cavan
County manager (Jack Keyes): €132,511
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
5 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €995,696

Clare
County manager (Tom Coughlan): €142,469
Chief veterinary inspector: €93,436 to €109,927
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
2 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,025,383

Cork City
City manager (Tim Lucey): €153,260
Assistant city manager: €90,453 to €106,900
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
3 heads of function: €90,453 to €106,900
* What the top 10 earn: €1,115,360

Cork County
County manager (Martin Riordan): €162,062
3 divisional managers: €125,885
Chief vet officer: €93,436 to €111,177
10 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
1 county engineer: €81,077 to €98,379
4 vet inspectors: €60,555 to €94,392
19 senior professionals (engineer/architect/planner/solicitor/scientist): €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,185,394

Donegal
County manager (Seamus Neely): €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
4 senior engineers: €74,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,025,437

Dublin City
City manager (John Tierney): €189,301
City engineer/director of traffic: €142,469
Assistant city manager: €132,511
Head of finance: €132,511
Personnel officer: €132,511
Executive manager: €90,453 to €106,900
Dublin city librarian: €90,453 to €106,900
Financial accountant: €90,453 to €106,900
ICT manager: €90,453 to €106,900
* What the top 10 earn: €1,263,803

Dún Laoighre-Rathdown
County manager (Owen Keegan): €153,260
8 directors of services: €106,900
County law agent: €95,540
County architect: €95,540
* What the top 10 earn: €1,104,000

Fingal
County manager (David O’Connor): €162,062
6 directors of services: €106,900
County architect: €95,540
Law agent: €95,540
5 senior engineers (five of them on the top point of the scale): €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior planners: €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,081,714

Galway city
City manager (Joe O’Neill, acting): €132,511
3 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance and ICT: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
2 management accountants: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €992,615

Galway county
County manager (Martina Moloney): €142,469
5 directors of service: €90,453 to €106,900
2 veterinary inspectors:€60,555 to €94,392
Chief fire officer €76,884 to €91,472
6 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,044,342

Kerry
County manager (Tom Curran): €142,469
6 directors of services: €106,900 (one not in place; seconded to Limerick Regeneration Agency)
Law agent: €95,540
Veterinary inspector: €94,392
Head of finance: €90,453
* What the top 10 earn: €1,064,254

Kildare
County manger (Michael Malone): €153,260
6 directors of service: €86,408 to €106,900
6 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,056,011

Kilkenny
County manager (Joe Crockett): €142,469
3 directors of service: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,392
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,012,989

Laois
County manager (Peter Carey): €132,511
2 director of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Financial management accountant: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €888,796

Leitrim
County manager (Jackie Maguire): €132,511
4 director of services: €90,453 to €106,900 Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,392
* What the top 10 earn: €1,022,754

Limerick city
City manager (Tom Mackey): €142,469
4 directors of service: €98,677 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €81,886 to €87,117
Senior executive officer: €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,006, 258

Limerick county
County manager (Gerry Behan, acting): €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,393
5 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Regional waste co-ordinator: €73,223 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,052,496

Longford
County manager (Tim Caffrey): €132,511
2 directors of services (plus one acting director of services): €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Senior resident engineer: €80,076
2 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
4 senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
8 senior executive engineers: €62,276 to €78,501
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
2 resident engineers: €59,680 to €68,030
Site technician: €48,147 to €52,363
* What the top 10 earn: €1,066,529

Louth
County manager (Conn Murray) €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
6 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
11 in senior executive officer/financial management accountant/senior social worker/county librarian/head of IT posts: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €1,025,437

Mayo
County manager (Peter Hynes): €142,469
County engineer: €90,453 to €106,900
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Project resident engineer: €88,698
Vet inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
* What the top 10 earn: €1,054,076

Meath
County Manager (Tom Dowling) €153,260
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 €106,900
County Vet: €88,898 to €98,945
Project resident engineer: €88,698
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
4 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,049,637

Monaghan
County manager (David Fallon): €132,511
2 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Acting director of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
Senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €999,890

North Tipp
County manager (Joe MacGrath): €132,511
3 directors of service: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
4 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,002,971

Offaly
County manager (Pat Gallagher): €132,511
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior planner: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €995,696

Roscommon
County manager (Frank Dawson): €132,511
3 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,002,971

Sligo County
County manager (Hubert Kearns): €136,509
3 directors of services: €99,970 to €109,268
Senior executive officer: €104,885
Project engineer: €96,167
2 senior engineers: €86,818 to €92,919
Veterinary inspector: €91,336
Chief librarian: €86,573
* What the top 10 earn: €1,012,872

Sligo Borough
Acting director of services: €102,787
Senior executive officer: €81,234
4 senior executive engineers: €71,824 to €76,118
Executive engineer and acting senior executive engineers: €64,373
Executive engineer: €62,374
3 administrative officers: €59,324 to €61,420
* What the top 10 earn: €653,182

South Dublin
County manager (Philomena Poole, acting): €162,062
8 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Project engineer (construction): €87,117
County architect: €78,368 to €95,540
Law agent: €78,368 to €95,540
15 in senior engineer/senior architect/senior planner/parks superintendent/solicitor/health and safety adviser posts: €73,223 to €87,117
* What the top 10 earn: €1,104,379

South Tipp
County manager (Billy McEvoy): €142,469
5 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
4 veterinary inspectors: €60,555 to €94,393
* What the top 10 earn: €1,054,541

Waterford City Council
City manager (Michael Walsh): €132,511
3 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Senior engineer: €73,223 to €87,117
Senior architect: €73,223 to €87,117
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
City librarian: €64,426 to €84,036
Head of information systems: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €989,534

Waterford County Council
County manager (Denis McCarthy): €132,511
4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
County librarian: €68,496
4 senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €973,994

Westmeath
County manager (Danny McLoughlin) €142,469
2 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Veterinary officer: €60,555 to €94,392
Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
3 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
County librarian: €64,426 to €84,036
* What the top 10 earn: €990,065

Wexford
County manager (Eddie Breen): €142,469
3 directors of services: €102,787 to €106,900
Head of finance: €94,565
County veterinary officer: €94,392
2 senior engineers: €87,117
Chief fire officer: €84,500
Senior engineer: €84,500
* What the top 10 earn: €991,247

Wicklow
County manager (Eddie Sheehy): €142,469
6 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
Head of finance: €90,453 to €106,900
Law agent: €78,368 to €95,540
Veterinary inspector: €60,555 to €94,392
* What the top 10 earn: €1,080,701

Wow! those are ridiculous salaries. But lets keep on vilifying Nurses and Teachers, that should solve things!!

Japer

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Wow! those are ridiculous salaries. But lets keep on vilifying Nurses and Teachers, that should solve things!!

There are many many managers and managers of managers in charge of the Nurses and teachers who are also paid "ridiculous salaries" and pensions. There are countless retired public servants in Ireland who get more of a pension than the Spanish prime minister gets for working.