Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

Oldtree

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Will chalara kill a young ash outright, or will the stem die and the root push up another young shoot

Yes its an outright kill, from all I have read there will be no regrowth from the roots.

tabby aspreme

Went to Stradbally today and listened to the talk given by Seamus Dunne chief inspector with the Forrest service and I reckon there's a lot more Chalara in the country , the first site they discovered in Letrim last October was planted in 2009 the plants were thought to have come from Holland but it has since been learned they were Danish but were sold by a Dutch Plant Broker, sounds familiar,

Allso plants in 15 nurseries have tested positive which must include most of the country

periodictable

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Went to Stradbally today and listened to the talk given by Seamus Dunne chief inspector with the Forrest service and I reckon there's a lot more Chalara in the country

What a nerve this guy has. He ought to hang his head in shame.

tabby aspreme

He was not very comfortable giving the talk, he also said that the latest research is showing that spores don't travel very far in the wind ,

TomOnBoard

periodictable wrote: »

What a nerve this guy has. He ought to hang his head in shame.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps not.

Regardless, this continued denigration of the people in the Forest Service, won't add a jot to the resolution of the current crisis. Practically every time anyone mentions something said or done by the State in relation to Chalara on here, we get this type of response from some.

How can we expect any helpful discourse with the FS on this forum when every time their statements and/or actions are reported it just provokes more blaming without any constructive actions being suggested.

I am fed up with this predictable type of response. It takes the discussion into entirely negative territory and derails potentially constructive discussion.

Frankly, it does absolutely nothing to prevent Chalara infection of my trees or to cure it if, God forbid, they have already been infected. And that is why I participate on this thread- not just to moan or vent my spleen!

Can we please focus on moving the issue forward.

Oldtree

tabby aspreme wrote: »

He was not very comfortable giving the talk, he also said that the latest research is showing that spores don't travel very far in the wind ,

Did he mention anything about the cluster of "wild" sites in the south east of england. I dont think its from localised infection. looks more like wind bourne from europe to me seems the most logical explaination.

periodictable

I knew that you'd be the first to respond TOB.
What's your Forest Service interest? I've never met someone apologize and defend the people who failed at their job.
I'm in the same boat as you- I don't want my ash to die of Chalara. But someone ****ed up. I want accountability.
Compare the BFC response to the disease to that of the FS. The best reporting on the disease in Ireland comes from a Boards poster, Oldtree. Fact! Maybe he's a FS official???
These guys get off the hook, and what's next? Spruce bark beetle?
I know these people-well meaning, but less than mediocre. Talk with most people in the industry and they absolutely despair of the current FS attempt at leadership.
They monitored chalara BEFORE it got here, and still they let it in.
I recommend the disbandment of the Forest Service, and the outsourcing of its Inspectorate activities to people who have every day field experience and who are not beholden to self preservation at any cost.
If you have a problem with my posts, avail of the IGNORE button.

periodictable

tabby aspreme wrote: »

He was not very comfortable giving the talk...

I wonder why?

Oldtree

periodictable wrote: »

Maybe he's a FS official???

:eek: No I'm not, I'm a qualified arborist with a serious anorack interest in ecology and preserving a native semi natural/ancient ash woodland.

St. Leibowitz

Oldtree wrote: »

:eek: No I'm not, I'm a qualified arborist with a serious anorack interest in ecology and preserving a native semi natural/ancient ash woodland.

Way over qualified for a position with the FS then ... pity.

tabby aspreme

No mention of wild sites in England, he said that there is a lot of debate among researchers as to how its spread with the latest research showing the spores don't travel very far , he didn't say how far they now think they travel but he did say they don't travel 30 to 40 km as previously thought
Apparently with some young trees, when the main stem dies from chalara, multiple leaders will start to grow but they will eventually die also ,
He said over the last few months Inspectors have been through all plantations planted with plants imported since 2009 though I never got to ask if landowners were informed when these inspections were taking place as I never saw anyone near mine , but will ask at the Tesgasc info meetings

Oldtree

Uk has today hit the 500 infected sites mark with now over 50 (52) in NI.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

Chisler2

Oldtree wrote: »

Uk has today hit the 500 infected sites mark with now over 50 (52) in NI.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara

What a refreshingly bias-free, jargon-free website!

tabby aspreme

I reckon the next 8 weeks will tell the tale here in Ireland, the site in Letrim was planted in 2009 and a big number of the trees were visibly affected last year when they were destroyed, so that's 4 years before it became very noticeable, so I'm thinking with the trees in letrim, the main shoots died back, new leaders started to grow in there place which covered up the seriousness of the situation until last year when the new leaders started to die and nothing grew to replace them

pachanco

tabby aspreme wrote: »

He was not very comfortable giving the talk, he also said that the latest research is showing that spores don't travel very far in the wind ,

That may slow the spread of the disease somewhat, but ultimately there are ash trees in every hedgerow in the country so it won't necessarily need to travel too far on the wind to spread. Did he elaborate at all on this latest research? (who carried out the study etc.) Also what does he consider "far", a few 100 yards, a few miles, 10 miles?

tabby aspreme

What he said was there was much debate among researchers regarding how far the spores travel in the wind, with the latest findings that they don't go very far , maybe 500 m , and that up to recently it was thought they could travel 30 /40 km. At the Letrim site they took out all Ash within a few feilds of the plantation as a buffer zone

TomOnBoard

periodictable wrote: »

I knew that you'd be the first to respond TOB.
What's your Forest Service interest? I've never met someone apologize and defend the people who failed at their job.
I'm in the same boat as you- I don't want my ash to die of Chalara. But someone ****ed up. I want accountability.
Compare the BFC response to the disease to that of the FS. The best reporting on the disease in Ireland comes from a Boards poster, Oldtree. Fact! Maybe he's a FS official???
These guys get off the hook, and what's next? Spruce bark beetle?
I know these people-well meaning, but less than mediocre. Talk with most people in the industry and they absolutely despair of the current FS attempt at leadership.
They monitored chalara BEFORE it got here, and still they let it in.
I recommend the disbandment of the Forest Service, and the outsourcing of its Inspectorate activities to people who have every day field experience and who are not beholden to self preservation at any cost.
If you have a problem with my posts, avail of the IGNORE button.

If you want so-called accountability, how do you think you are going to get it on a message board for God's sake! But of course, you "know these people-well meaning, but less than mediocre". If they did not do their jobs in their dealings with you, fight them through the Ombudsman, or the Courts if necessary. Hire a lawyer and sue them if they've damaged you that much.

You ask to compare the FS response to Chalara with that of the BFC. So did the BFC let the disease into UK, as you accuse the FS of doing? After all "they monitored chalara BEFORE it got here, and still they let it in." How does their accountability differ? And yet the BFC is a paragon of virtue in your argument! So, based on your recommendation with respect to the FS, the British Forestry Commission should be disbanded as well?? Ridiculous!

As to my interest in the FS or whether anyone else here is a member of the FS or not, that is none of your business. And as for knowing that I'd be the first to respond; are you setting traps or hunting now? Or have I just become just as "periodictable" as your good self? :-)

This Board is the only place where interested people can discuss Chalara with other members. This banging on about who is responsible is highly speculative at best, and derails all meaningful discussion on resolving this problem whenever FS is mentioned.

There is a fire raging, and I am more interested in having that fire put out than I am in shouting at the firemen that they had not done enough inspections in the past.

TomOnBoard

pachanco wrote: »

That may slow the spread of the disease somewhat, but ultimately there are ash trees in every hedgerow in the country so it won't necessarily need to travel too far on the wind to spread. Did he elaborate at all on this latest research? (who carried out the study etc.) Also what does he consider "far", a few 100 yards, a few miles, 10 miles?

I too am confused.

If this new information is correct, then it may be a gamechanger.

If Chalara spores can travel 40 miles, then the whole eastern half of the country could be infected within 3 years in a worst case scenario. This would require 3 successive serious Summer storms (between June and Sept when spores are produced) with high winds etc, assuming a wind coming from the West South-West, and the culling of all currently infected sites.

If Chalara spores can travel only 400 metres, then assuming all current infections are removed, this becomes very manageable.

This distance issue needs urgent clarification.

pachanco

A few interesting points raised in this blog, worth a look, I wonder could our feathered friends play any part in the spread of the disease?

http://ramblingsofanaturalist.blogspot.ie/2012/12/ash-dieback-coastal-spread.html

periodictable

Let me repeat:

FS has been monitoring this disease in Europe since 2008 at least. They knew it was moving across a land mass, in a westerly direction. Logically, there's a disease of our most important broad-leaf all over the continent, so what to do? Let's not import ash wood, ash firewood or ash saplings. The same damned logic would apply to a disease of cattle. Remember foot and mouth?
In February 2012 it was found in a consignment of infected trees sent from a nursery in the Netherlands to a nursery in Buckinghamshire, England. http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara#Origins
Logically, the paddies ought to have noted this and immediately banned all ash imports. In October 2012 the UK govt issued a Plant Health Order prohibits all imports of ash seeds, plants and trees, and all internal movement of ash seeds, plants and trees. Here, the FS asked for a "voluntary ban" on imports from infected areas in Europe. You seriously believe that Dutch nursery grower in an infected area will burn 1 million plants and take a loss? No, nursery operators have told me that labels will be changed and someone in an uninfected area will sell them on. It's human nature to do such a thing.
Imagine, if you will, a bovine disease on the continent moving, westwards.....will the vets in the Dept. of Agriculture call for a voluntary restriction on the import of stock from affected areas? If you believe that, you believe in the tooth fairy.
What happens in the UK is their business-I simply make a comparison to how we do business here. This Chalara debacle is symptomatic of the appalling lack of vision and leadership in the Forest Service.
While it is possible that the disease might have entered the country in an airborne matter, the evidence points to the fact that all infected sites here were planted with stock from infected areas in Europe.
Who you are is of no consequence to me-I simply observe your defense of the FS whenever someone has the temerity to say that the emperor there is bollock naked.
I reserve the right to question any public servant in a position of power. One is paid by the taxpayer to do a job- to serve the public- and if one is not up to the task,admit it and resign or get reassigned to something within your competence.
As an example of my belief in calling senior public servants to account, you may have read of continuing attempts by senior departmental officials to block any banking inquiry. I know about forestry, and I want to know how this has come to pass here. Is it really too much to ask? Are you prepared to have an equally devastating disease affecting Sitka Spruce enter the state just because someone didn't do their job?
And in case you missed this:

The policy of the Forest Service in this area is to maintain a healthy forest environment by ensuring good management, identifying risks and maintaining a sustained commitment to measures which prevent the entry and establishment of destructive forest pests and diseases.
Under the EU Plant Health Directive, strict regulatory controls are in place to prevent the entry of exotic insect pests and diseases which could seriously damage our forests. These relate to the movement of forest plants and wood products into Ireland both from within the EU and from non-EU countries.

TomOnBoard

pachanco wrote: »

A few interesting points raised in this blog, worth a look, I wonder could our feathered friends play any part in the spread of the disease?

http://ramblingsofanaturalist.blogspot.ie/2012/12/ash-dieback-coastal-spread.html

This is a very interesting find- Well done!

I would love to bring such knowledge as Patrick Roper has as a naturalist, with someone who has a similar depth of knowledge in meteorology.

If the spores only live June to September, then analysis of the prevalence of winds, mapped to the information that Patrick has brought together might be very enlightening. If that info. was also coupled with info. on migratory bird patterns from the Baltic and Nordic regions, we might really get somewhere.

Again, well done on the find.

TomOnBoard

periodictable wrote: »

Let me repeat:

FS has been monitoring this disease in Europe since 2008 at least. They knew it was moving across a land mass, in a westerly direction. Logically, there's a disease of our most important broad-leaf all over the continent, so what to do? Let's not import ash wood, ash firewood or ash saplings. The same damned logic would apply to a disease of cattle. Remember foot and mouth?
In February 2012 it was found in a consignment of infected trees sent from a nursery in the Netherlands to a nursery in Buckinghamshire, England. http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara#Origins
Logically, the paddies ought to have noted this and immediately banned all ash imports. In October 2012 the UK govt issued a Plant Health Order prohibits all imports of ash seeds, plants and trees, and all internal movement of ash seeds, plants and trees. Here, the FS asked for a "voluntary ban" on imports from infected areas in Europe. You seriously believe that Dutch nursery grower in an infected area will burn 1 million plants and take a loss? No, nursery operators have told me that labels will be changed and someone in an uninfected area will sell them on. It's human nature to do such a thing.
Imagine, if you will, a bovine disease on the continent moving, westwards.....will the vets in the Dept. of Agriculture call for a voluntary restriction on the import of stock from affected areas? If you believe that, you believe in the tooth fairy.
What happens in the UK is their business-I simply make a comparison to how we do business here. This Chalara debacle is symptomatic of the appalling lack of vision and leadership in the Forest Service.
While it is possible that the disease might have entered the country in an airborne matter, the evidence points to the fact that all infected sites here were planted with stock from infected areas in Europe.
Who you are is of no consequence to me-I simply observe your defense of the FS whenever someone has the temerity to say that the emperor there is bollock naked.
I reserve the right to question any public servant in a position of power. One is paid by the taxpayer to do a job- to serve the public- and if one is not up to the task,admit it and resign or get reassigned to something within your competence.
As an example of my belief in calling senior public servants to account, you may have read of continuing attempts by senior departmental officials to block any banking inquiry. I know about forestry, and I want to know how this has come to pass here. Is it really too much to ask? Are you prepared to have an equally devastating disease affecting Sitka Spruce enter the state just because someone didn't do their job?
And in case you missed this:

The policy of the Forest Service in this area is to maintain a healthy forest environment by ensuring good management, identifying risks and maintaining a sustained commitment to measures which prevent the entry and establishment of destructive forest pests and diseases.
Under the EU Plant Health Directive, strict regulatory controls are in place to prevent the entry of exotic insect pests and diseases which could seriously damage our forests. These relate to the movement of forest plants and wood products into Ireland both from within the EU and from non-EU countries.

Oh God, not again!

OK. I'll take your advise. You have now been ignored!

crossbill

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Oh God, not again!

OK. I'll take your advise. You have now been ignored!

I must say that I find little fault with periodictables viewpoint. However, I dont think that the Forest Service is the problem, it appears that no money is available to control this disease, yuo have to look at who controls the finance!
Foresters are pulling up the imported forestry ash but im unaware of any effort with amenity planting or the roadside trees. Remember, the imported Ash was brought in to nurseries and garden centres and sold to the public with no traceability.
What was required was a "Herod" scheme to destroy all imported Ash less than ,say, 5 years of age but its probably too late now. This would have required a significant amount of money, and obviously none is available. Apparently the funds for the forestry removal were taken from the planting budget.
The answer is always in the money!

Oldtree

crossbill wrote: »

I must say that I find little fault with periodictables viewpoint. However, I dont think that the Forest Service is the problem, it appears that no money is available to control this disease, yuo have to look at who controls the finance!
Foresters are pulling up the imported forestry ash but im unaware of any effort with amenity planting or the roadside trees. Remember, the imported Ash was brought in to nurseries and garden centres and sold to the public with no traceability.
What was required was a "Herod" scheme to destroy all imported Ash less than ,say, 5 years of age but its probably too late now. This would have required a significant amount of money, and obviously none is available. Apparently the funds for the forestry removal were taken from the planting budget.
The answer is always in the money!

They have invested in 1 (one) genie II! :rolleyes:
I suppose we should be thankful for small mercys.

Oldtree

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I too am confused.

If this new information is correct, then it may be a gamechanger.

If Chalara spores can travel 40 miles, then the whole eastern half of the country could be infected within 3 years in a worst case scenario. This would require 3 successive serious Summer storms (between June and Sept when spores are produced) with high winds etc, assuming a wind coming from the West South-West, and the culling of all currently infected sites.

If Chalara spores can travel only 400 metres, then assuming all current infections are removed, this becomes very manageable.

This distance issue needs urgent clarification.

Tbh I dont see how studies can restrict the traveling distance, there are so many variables. Hot air rises and can take the spores with it, for example.

The UK map is very clear. I find it impossible to believe that the wider environment infected sites have been infected from locally planted infected sites in the south east, given the sheer number of wider environment infected sites that are noted on the map (red dots) far outweighs the number of planted infected sites (yellow dots).

Even if it were true that wider environment infected sites have been infected from locally planted infected sites, that would indicate that the spread of the disease in local terms is very rapid indeed.

pachanco

Close up images of Chalara fraxinea growing on the leaf stem of infected ash.

http://phys.org/news/2013-05-images-chalara-fraxinea-leaf-stem.html

Oldtree

13th May 2013

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/newsrele.nsf/web-allbysubject/F64F11B38877219E80257B6A004C3DFA

and its not too far away from us on the south west of wales, see the above map.

Oldtree

Some positive news

http://www.tgac.ac.uk/news/52/68/Unravelling-the-genetic-code-of-the-Ash-Dieback-survivor-tree-35/

Oldtree

Kew's Millennium Seed Bank is establishing the UK's first national collection of tree seeds to ensure the country has a comprehensive and genetically diverse assortment of seeds for research into threats facing trees.

Dr Smith said: "We have 93% of the plant species banked as seed, but the problem is we don't have many samples. We need full genetic representation because what we're looking for is disease resistance."

The five-year project, funded by a £100,000 donation from the People's Postcode Lottery, aims to gather samples of each species from 24 "seed zones" across the UK where the trees occur.

Targeted species include: Common ash (Fraxinus excelsior),

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/10411876.Seeds_from_threatened_trees_to_be_collected_in_Sussex/

http://www.kew.org/science-conservation/save-seed-prosper/millennium-seed-bank/index.htm

Oldtree

Confirmed findings (as of 17 May 2013) of ash dieback (Chalara fraxinea)

Forestry Plantations 36 up 5
Counties: Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Galway, Kildare, Kilkenny, Leitrim, Longford, Meath, Tipperary, Waterford
Horticultural Nurseries 15 up 1
Garden Centres 3 same
Private Garden 2 up 1
Farm planting/REPS/AEOS 13 up 10
Roadside Planting 13 up 8

Total in the Republic now 82 up 25 from the last update on the 27th March 2013
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/ashdiebackchalara/

With the 52 in NI that totals 134 on the island.

Uk has just put up some new pictures of symptoms at the top of their web page: (2,3 and 6 are the most helpful)
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/chalara