Ash Dieback Disease (Chalara fraxinea) in Ireland

fepper

Tim I was about to ask you about the fine looking lopping shears and where I could get one and then you broke it ?? cutting that ash tree,great information films though,well done

Blackcurrants

Interesting extract from a talk by Richard Mabey. Nature hates order.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w8soyFtV9A

timfromtang

Blackcurrants wrote: »

Interesting extract from a talk by Richard Mabey. Nature hates order.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w8soyFtV9A

Hi Blackcurrants,
Sadly he is less than accurate on the science, I do concur that the media has exaggerated and been universally doom and gloom about it.

tim

timfromtang

Howdy folks,
The reconstitution scheme has been updated with new procedures.
My knowledge of the likely disease progress has increased
Many folk whom I trust have advised me,
Notably Gerry Douglas of Teagasc,
and I have decided to go ahead with the reconstitution of our infected 6 year old ash plantation.

I will post here as it happens, with photographs and some video.

I plan a state of the art, multispecies, diverse hard/softwood mix to replace it, I would be hoping to include very short rotation species, short rotation species, medium rotation species, and long and very long rotation species, in small groups such that each group should contain at least one final crop tree at end of rotation. The idea here is to achieve a multilayered stand structure as soon as possible to facilitate continuous cover management, and I would hope that the diversity will increase disease resilience and plant vigour throughout the stand.

very short rotation, poplars, and perhaps some conifers,
short rotation, cherry et al
medium rotation sycamore and other acers, walnut, etc
long rotation beech and oaks, with hornbeam understorey
very long rotation, yew

any suggestions ?

tim

blue5000

Tim,
I'm not sure what soil types you have, but if you have some wetter spots how about some Alder to fix a bit of Nitrogen?

timfromtang

aye, thanks blue, the soil is good and dry, but there are a few little spots where alder will do ok, and it will go in as a short rotation tree.
It is good land, was used to grow sugar beet during the last war, had been used for grazing and hay and silage since then.

The site was not mounded, trees were planted beside rips last time, I would plan to do this again with the small change of ripping along contour lines rather than in straight lines, this to improve water availability and give an element of drought protection.

I will have to purchase some of the trees myself I expect in order to get the diversity i wish for, for example I would plan to buy some apples, pears, and damsons, for the flowers and fruit, planted beside the rides. I will certainly have to buy any trees that are not in common supply by none so hardy et al. Yew (long rotation) for example. I do not mind investing in what I hope will be a beautiful forest. I'll have 12 months from the site clearance to purchase trees, and plan the planting. A bit more like an arboretum or forest garden than a commercial forest, but since my family and I will manage it on the ground with secateurs, chainsaw etc, it should be doable, I hope to demonstrate what is possible in diversity of outputs from the forest, i.e. recreation, food, etc.

Species I am considering at the moment,
Cherry, spanish chestnut, lime, black and common walnut, beech, oak, hornbeam, sycamore, norway maple, alder, birch, white poplar and some hybrids, whitebeam, scots pine, holly, yew, I'd perhaps include a small number of exotics, western red cedar, sitka, etc, certainly some evergreens to balance the hardwoods. perhaps even some rowans, spindle, and guelder rose for the edges too. a couple of monkey puzzles and dawn redwoods near the entrance (the forest road will enter from the road in one of the fields).
Diversity and intimate mixture would be my preference, given my management style of hands on micromanagement, and preference for continuous cover.
I am a lifetime hobby woodworker, and although I will not live to harvest these, I would hope that my descendants will thank me for the planting, we have been living here since 1701 and have no plans to move, my children are woodworkers also, and will have walnut in their 50's and cherry in their 40's, poplar and alder in their thirties, etc etc.

I would plan to plant the trees in small groups such that each group should contain at least one final crop tree at end of rotation, and to mix short and long rotation species throughout in order to achieve a multilayered forest to facilitate continuous cover management.

I am aware that this will all be a little more expensive than the usual grant aided planting scheme would allow for, I am hoping to supplement the grant, i.e. pay the forestry company a bit extra, in order to achieve what I'd like. I am using SWS Forestry at the moment, and have found the forester I have to be brilliant, he answers his phone, listens to my needs, etc.

A dizzy twit plan i have is to plant some distinctive species in a big C in a circle with 2018 on the south side "© 2018" so that it can be seen from the sky, and sue microshaft for copyright infringement when the image appears on bing maps (giggle).


tim

SILVAMAN

Sounds interesting. Spanish chestnut unavailable in Ireland due to a voluntary ban on importation because of inkspot disease which is wiping it out in Francs and the UK.
As a forester, I think we need to seriously examine the planting of broadleaves just for the sake of planting them. I've come across any number of sites of ash plantations which should never have been planted with ash i.e wet gleys, peaty gleys etc. These sites would have been better off under either Sitka with significant scattered groupings of a birch/alder /rowan mix.

Dozer1

latest Dept circular 6 available on their site now
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/grantsandpremiumschemes2015-2017/schemecirculars/2017circulars/

Oldtree

Dozer1 wrote: »

latest Dept circular 6 available on their site now
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/grantsandpremiumschemes2015-2017/schemecirculars/2017circulars/

Still no further figures on the spread of ash dieback from the dept since last September.

However up north they have given some more recent figures

Ash Dieback disease in Northern Ireland

Year/Inspections/infected sites/nursery etc

2012 1028 76 3
2013 1895 12. 0
2014 1306 2. 0
2015 1896 18. 0
2016 2680 68. 0

As a result of buffer surveillance at affected sites in 2015, Ash Dieback was detected in mature hedgerow ash trees at 3 locations close to infected recently planted trees, suggesting very localised spread at that stage

Will try do another all Ireland map shortly.

tabby aspreme

Good day to all, how is everyone getting on with the clearance and replanting on the ash ground, it was a good spring weather wise for getting work done , from talking to my forester there are plenty more cases of die back about.

The_Conductor

What are people replanting with ?
Heard a few people were thinking of Scots Pine- for amenity rather than commercial purposes?

timfromtang

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Good day to all, how is everyone getting on with the clearance and replanting on the ash ground, it was a good spring weather wise for getting work done , from talking to my forester there are plenty more cases of die back about.

A timely inquiry,
Hi Tabby,
I just pulled (uprooted) the last of 14500 ash stems on 5.2 Ha at home here in Tang on friday last.

Heading out to fire the last pile in a few minutes.

The trees were uprooted with a modified Japa skidding grapple, afterward gathered and piled (neatly in square stacks root end out).

I am happy enough with the fairly minimal ground disturbance involved.

We are still dithering about what to replant with.

Nice fertile brown earth on a flat to south facing aspect, land was previously in grass and tilled for beet in the past.

The Ash had been struggling to a degree due to grass competition.

I'd prefer short to medium rotation choices as i am getting older and the rest of the holding has a considerable portion of long rotation oak and beech.

There is already a portion of ADB (additional broadleaves) in the cleared plots, rowan, whitethorn, black walnut, spanish chestnut, wild cherry, hazel, and scots pine.

suggestions welcome,

we plan to replant this winter, although i am unsure whether or not the forest service will require that we leave the plot unplanted for 12 months post clearance or whether replanting this coming nov, dec, jan and feb would be acceptable.

some documentation of our work thus far here
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpsi5CNfvIq1UD6GvqOgj_w

pulling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL-WUvjZtxE

piling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRnnYoO65SI

Ash to ash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck-T8md9izU


tim

St. Leibowitz

Jebus Tim, that's heartbreaking. So sorry lad.

tabby aspreme

It's hard to watch them burning Tim , after minding them and trying to get them to grow.
That's a great system for pulling up small trees, how many years are they planted.
When my time comes to replant, and it will , I would like to plant birch for short rotation and firewood with walnut and cherry for quality final crop , I also like Norway maple, I have about 100 and they grow well but deer are fond of them .

Genghis Cant

It's fairly sobering Tim.
Can I ask why you changed from pulling them up with a chain to the grapple?
You've a lor of work on your hands there. Best of luck with it.

Oldtree

I can't bring myself to watch your videos yet Tim. But well done on making a record.

Perhaps a bit of willow in the mix. A wide variety of Osier basket willows might give an income on a regular basis after the stools are set up. And some for medium term firewood and cricket bats .

Course willows are great as an early source of nectar so maby have a few hives going too.

blue5000

Tim all I can say is that's rough. Very tempted to say put in wall to wall sitka, none of us are getting any younger.

timfromtang

Genghis Cant wrote: »

It's fairly sobering Tim.
Can I ask why you changed from pulling them up with a chain to the grapple?
You've a lor of work on your hands there. Best of luck with it.

The Grapple was a little slower, but required only one man not two and so a bit more cost effective. Furthermore the constant bending and shuffling involved with the converted stillson tree puller and chain was really hard on my poor old body. The grapple was hard on the body too, lots of reversing.
Altogether the operation took 448 man hours, trees were uprooted, picked, piled, burned, grass cut, and site raked to remove leaf litter. 5.2 hectares or so. 14500 trees, just under 2 minutes a tree for the whole operation.

Bless my Wife and family and friends, I never would have got through the labour without their help.

tim

Danzy

timfromtang wrote: »

The Grapple was a little slower, but required only one man not two and so a bit more cost effective. Furthermore the constant bending and shuffling involved with the converted stillson tree puller and chain was really hard on my poor old body. The grapple was hard on the body too, lots of reversing.
Altogether the operation took 448 man hours, trees were uprooted, picked, piled, burned, grass cut, and site raked to remove leaf litter. 5.2 hectares or so. 14500 trees, just under 2 minutes a tree for the whole operation.

Bless my Wife and family and friends, I never would have got through the labour without their help.

tim

The decency that comes across in your videos is reflected in those who know you, in what is a tough job to do.

Oldtree

A timely video just put up by Teagasc.
(Dramatic music stab used for emphasis at the end of the video.:rolleyes:)

There are currently 384 forestry plantations with positive samples distributed over 24 counties:
Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Cork, Dublin, Galway, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Louth,
Mayo, Meath, Monagan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo, Tipperary, Waterford, Westmeath, Wexford,
and Wicklow.

There are currently 17 counties with individual positive samples taken from trees in native hedgerows:
Cavan, Clare, Donegal, Galway, Kildare, Kilkenny, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Mayo, Meath, Monaghan,
Roscommon, Sligo, Tipperary, Wexford, and Wicklow.

There are currently 14 counties with individual positive samples taken from trees in roadside / motorway
landscaping plantings:
Clare, Cork, Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny, Limerick, Laois, Louth, Meath, Monaghan, Offaly, Tipperary,
Waterford, and Westmeath.

New DOA map



looks less dramatic than the old style map

timfromtang

thanks for that oldtree, however i suggest that those of us who have up close and personal experience of the disease may differ somewhat with the official figures, I do not suggest that the figures are wrong, I am sure they represent the extent of the departments of governance's various knowledge of the situation, however wherever I go, i see it, locally and on various journeys farther afield.

I'd like to offer my opinion that removal of infected trees is somewhat less helpful than simply spraying the leaf litter at leaf fall with a bit of urea (50% solution in water) to promote decomposition and prevent breeding of the infective agent.

tim

tabby aspreme

Thanks for that tip about the urea Tim, I was thinking about spreading fast acting granulated lime to break down the leaves but that gives me another option. I would agree with you about the spread of the disease, it's starting to steamroll now.

Oldtree

timfromtang wrote: »

thanks for that oldtree, however i suggest that those of us who have up close and personal experience of the disease may differ somewhat with the official figures, I do not suggest that the figures are wrong, I am sure they represent the extent of the departments of governance's various knowledge of the situation, however wherever I go, i see it, locally and on various journeys farther afield.

I would suggest that current findings figures by the dept are not the full tally, and have not been for some time. Stating "no of counties" on the current findings instead of actual numbers of findings has been/is disingenuous.



The Dept map is also somewhat disingenuous, as it does not give even a rough location of commercial nurseries and garden centres. These clear vector sites, even roughly indicated, would have given a better indication of possible locally future infected sites.

timfromtang wrote: »

I'd like to offer my opinion that removal of infected trees is somewhat less helpful than simply spraying the leaf litter at leaf fall with a bit of urea (50% solution in water) to promote decomposition and prevent breeding of the infective agent.

tim

Thats a very good idea tim. Taken a step further, spray the trees too, to catch any detritus, etc. Sounds like an excellent containment measure, rather than potentially wafting the spores up into the wind by tree removal.

timfromtang

Quote
Thats a very good idea tim. Taken a step further, spray the trees too, to catch any detritus, etc. Sounds like an excellent containment measure, rather than potentially wafting the spores up into the wind by tree removal.[/quote]

I'd like to stress that I first heard of this treatment from Dr Gerry Douglas Teagasc.
Not my idea.

Tim

Danzy

Notice a fair few young Ash trees in my place that are looking very yellow with leaves at the tip going black.

tabby aspreme

Danzy wrote: »

Notice a fair few young Ash trees in my place that are looking very yellow with leaves at the tip going black.

Are the branches turning brown or purple in color, this time of the year leaves will start to change color especially with ash

CaraK

Any idea if this is Ash borer beetle

timfromtang

CaraK wrote: »

Any idea if this is Ash borer beetle

Hi Carak,
I think not, see here for a good description and images https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_ash_borer

tim

ps your post put the heart crossways in me!!

Blackcurrants

Pretty sure its a stink bug.

CaraK

Apologies for making your heart race

I kind of had same sinking feeling when I seen it too

The underside is all green which leads me to thinks it's the Hawthorn Shield bug which would make sense as I have been trying unsuccessfully to cut mature Hawthorn trees the last few days, they are definitely the hardest wood I have encountered

http://staffweb.itsligo.ie/staff/dcotton/Hawthorn_shieldbug.html

tabby aspreme

Have had a few of those shield bugs land on my arms and hands over the years, I never knew what they were but they are impressive looking, the effort cutting Hawthorn if it's for firewood is worth it as not many other types of timber can match it for heat.

JJayoo

Speaking of Hawthorne/whitethorn I just found out that you can graft pears onto them.

tabby aspreme

At last the Dept being honest about Ash Dieback.
Article in the Irish Times last week, Department admit Dieback will not be eradicated, cannot post link

greysides

tabby aspreme wrote: »

At last the Dept being honest about Ash Dieback.
Article in the Irish Times last week, Department admit Dieback will not be eradicated, cannot post link

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/eradication-of-ash-dieback-not-feasible-in-ireland-minister-1.3468836

woollyman

Teagasc are holding an event tomorrow 23rd Oct in Ballyhaise college, Co. Cavan, on management of ash in the light of ash dieback. See Teagasc Forestry Events webpage for more info.

tabby aspreme

Anyone go to this today, I'd like to know what the latest plan is with infected ash.

Accidentally

Are we at the stage where fighting it is waste of time. If its going to happen anyway I'd prefer to start replacing sick trees with other species, or growing whips from local ash which shows signs of resistance.

Blackcurrants

We're actively managing our woods to favour all other species and to remove any Ash that is impeding the development of other trees. I'm going to try Birch as a possible replacement for the Ash where it is suited to the site. Cherry and Sycamore in other areas. Chalara is so effective at killing Ash regen and young plants that I can't see how we're going to have much Ash in the not so distant future. Hopefully some resistant stock is available soon.

Danzy

Accidentally wrote: »

Are we at the stage where fighting it is waste of time. If its going to happen anyway I'd prefer to start replacing sick trees with other species, or growing whips from local ash which shows signs of resistance.

Yes , unfortunately.

Sadly the ash will lose its niche even if resistant ones are found.

The gap on the ditch will be filled.

LogLady

Hello all, not sure if resurrecting this thread is the right way to go, but I'm primarily here to pick Old Tree's brains and some of the other old hands if ye don't mind. A loooong time ago, I had a different account that I closed, but had previously posted in this thread as the owner of a very small Ash plantation. I'm back up here now because it's difficult to know what to do and the Department isn't the place to have a chat about potentially not doing everything strictly by the book!

Ok, so having sold a number of acres to get a smaller headache than the massive migraine I had, I still own 2 acres next to the house. Not much and easier to handle. In Spring 2019 I went ahead and did the 2nd thinning without waiting for the grant (mostly because I was waiting on the forms so long that my felling guy was going to be gone somewhere else for the months I needed him) and it was then I discovered the extent of the dieback. Of course now, I see it everywhere - there is hardly a tree without it and it's obvious I am going to have to clear-fell. I took the decision to sell 2/3 to a neighbour (with full disclosure about the obligations, obviously) and I will replant the remaining 2 acres with mixed native Irish woodland, suitable to the different ground qualities and intend to leave 3 small clearings for the purposes of "glamping in the woods" (I asked the department forester and he said they wouldn't have a problem with this.....surprisingly!).

My issue is whether to go ahead and do this myself NOW this coming winter without all the rigmarole of departments, foresters, contractors, etc and just sell the standing trees to another neighbour who has already made me an offer for felling and clearing, and then go ahead and fund the replanting without a grant (which would be half nothing anyways). I still have a felling license in date until next year. I personally think the department won't come near me, and even if they did, I AM replanting and will maintain the integrity of a woodland (20m x 20m, with the potential for the canopy to close over is what the Dept forester told me). Is it strictly illegal not to inform the department I'm clear-felling and replanting myself?! At this stage, having managed the bigger plantation for 15 years over the 1st and 2nd thinning, I am very reluctant to throw money at every contractor I meet and end up paying for the timber twice over, when I could actually break even doing this my own way. Bearing in mind I am a woman of a certain age who does none of the work myself, until hauling the blocked logs up to the house ;-)

Any thoughts?! (sorry for the long post)

Re-edit: There is precisely NO access for logging trucks and it is entirely land-locked. Tractors and mini-forwarders only and extraction is a big issue. That's why this neighbour's offer is the least hassle and the fewest contractors.

Dempo1

Hi,

I posted some grim photos of a number of Ash Trees in my garden earlier in the year, I actually had resigned myself to the fact they were dead, decided to save the trunks of two by pruning severely and retain them as features.

To my astonishment (and I really removed alot)

Both came back and better than ever. I can't explain it but this photos taken just now.

LogLady

"Both came back and better than ever. I can't explain it but this photos taken just now."

Hi Dempo, I've seen it in various articles that regrowth is very susceptible to the dieback, but actually the regrowth after the 2nd thinning of my plot looks healthy too. I can imagine that after I've clear-felled (see post above your's), I will have the same thing going on. Once I plant in between, I should end up with a nice canopy. Your trees are looking healthy alright!

Dinzee Conlee

We have an ash growing out the front of the house, and I noticed that the tips are all black

is this ash dieback?

blue5000

No. If you have any trees 20 to 30 foot tall with dead branches at the top, that’s dieback, will get you a photo later.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065693#Comment_119065693

Ash has black buds and comes into leaf later than most trees. But you'll see ash die back quick enough, there'll be branches without leaves and the tree will look a bit thin in terms of foliage. Seems to be endemic now, we have about two dozen ash of various ages and I'd estimate that at least 2/3rds are visibly affected.

blue5000

This one is on the way out.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119130060#Comment_119130060

We're going to have loads of trees for firewood from now on, a lot of trees affected

timfromtang

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131733#Comment_119131733

When you come on a dead or dying Ash,

you are going to cut it up and burn its bits....

Save all the logs fit for making handles, Ash for handles will be in short supply in coming years.

Have you seen the price of a shovel handle recently?!!

imho the best approach to this is to split the handle stock into quarters and stack in a dry shed.

Lengths suitable for shovels, forks, spades or scythes will be at a premium id say, although these are much more difficult to split for storage.

tim

jaffa20

I've noticed lots of ash dieback in public parks that are just left as they are, with healthy ask trees surrounding them. Why is there no control on the spread of this? I'm guessing it spreads from infected trees to healthy trees.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119132925#Comment_119132925

At a guess it's impractical unless diseased Trees are in a dangerous state. There's no way to stop it's spread (open to correction).

I've had an interesting journey with Ash Die Back. I posted pics very early on this Thread of a number of Trees affected in my garden and surrounds , the disease is rampant in the Midlands.

A number of Trees died , young Trees mainly but Two strategically placed in my Garden , I decided to retain and just leave as features. I literally pruned them entirely, leaving Trunk and large branches. Left it and within a year it started to sprout new branches and growth. I can't explain it but in essence severe pruning seems to have rescued both Trees (about 20 years old) , they've now recovered fully .

On the other hand , I've another enormous Ash , must be over 100 feet tall , just to big to prune. It has pockets of Ash Die Back and areas of excellent foliage. I'm unsure but I believe older Trees fare better with Ash Die Back.

I've other Ash trees bordering an adjoining site , some have Died, some are blooming.

Very perplexing Disease but not always fatal in my experience.