What is rape?

ViveLaVie

up for anything wrote: »

To answer that first question, perhaps they rely on witness statements - if the woman is practically comatose but the man is just very drunk but able to support her as they leave wherever they have been for wherever the sex is going to take place that could be an assessment of their levels of drunkenness. I'm sure every case is different.

As to the second SPECIFIC scenario, how many rapes are reported to have taken place in this way and how many actually get prosecuted to a successful conclusion for you to ask this question? In the real world I would imagine that there are few like this but not many, because to cry rape like that takes a very nasty person. How many ordinary people do you think would put themselves through the ordeal of a rape exam and trial just because they regretted a drunken act of sex?

Yes well obviously if it can be shown the man is aware of what is happening and the woman isn't then that is rape. However a lot of people on a specific thread expressed the opinion that even if the man and woman are equally drunk, the responsibility lies only with the man.

I hope not many. I started this thread because I was surprised to read how many people held this viewpoint on the Reddit thread.

Unfortunately it does sometimes happen though. There was a case in the UK recently where a woman had sex with three men and claimed rape. It was proven afterwards that she lied and had fully consented but just cried rape because she was embarrassed. It is cases like this that make it harder for real victims to be taken seriously.

In the case of the Reddit thread, many anonymous females stated they had been raped and described scenarios very similar to the one I did. Personally I find it difficult to reconcile with.

stop animal cruelty

Stheno wrote: »

Wasn't replying to you there?



True I was being limited thinking of penetration



Hard to quantify as an average

I can't see most men wanting to go ahead and have sex with someone who is comatose from drink though.

If there is anything that boils my blood it's false rape allegations, but there is a line that should not be crossed.

Be sure you both want to and go ahead.

you quoted my comment.......

ViveLaVie

Stheno wrote: »

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yes I believe that is rape, absolutely. She was intimidated and he basically kidnapped her.

Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?

Would it really be that difficult for the boy to ask if the girl would like to have sex?

Perhaps not but some feel it kills the mood and most people don't do so. I feel like consent is implied in this scenario.

Stheno

I made a mistake with quotes is all

Stheno

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Perhaps not but some feel it kills the mood and most people don't do so. I feel like consent is implied in this scenario.

What someone feels about it killing the moment is very different from someone feeling they have been raped not having been asked if they want to have sex.

ViveLaVie

say_who_now? wrote: »

Stheno wrote: »

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Another thread on boards had me thinking about drunken sex and rape too. A significant number of people believed that when a man and a woman have drunken sex, the man has raped the woman because she was unable to consent. I found this line of thinking appalling.

Why? Do you think it's ok for a guy who is drunk to go ahead and have sex with a drunk woman who may not be aware of what is going on?

I remember the thread the OP is talking about, and it was nothing even like a "significant" number, more like five out of 80 or so contributors to the thread. That's why I wasn't going to bother contributing to this one as I can see it already taking the same circular argument nit picking direction the last one did.

Apologies, I meant to say both the boards thread and the Reddit thread. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

ViveLaVie

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I only got through page one of the replies, but women are quite capable of rape, as well.

It's not an act that is only limited to the male of the species.

Yes absolutely. I only spoke in terms of female rape as the Reddit and boards threads were concerned with that.

Lingua Franca

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?

I really feel that in this case the onus is on the girl to indicate that she is uncomfortable with what is going on, to be honest. But still, if the fella senses that she is suddenly reluctant then he should stop and confirm with her that it's ok to continue.

The onus is on the girl, though. She really needs to make her wishes known if she is adamant that she does not want it to happen and is capable of indicating such. We can't leave the issue of consent up to the fella's ESP if he's had no real negative feedback.

ViveLaVie

Stheno wrote: »

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Perhaps not but some feel it kills the mood and most people don't do so. I feel like consent is implied in this scenario.

What someone feels about it killing the moment is very different from someone feeling they have been raped not having been asked if they want to have sex.

Yes but is consent not implied?

ViveLaVie

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I really feel that in this case the onus is on the girl to indicate that she is uncomfortable with what is going on, to be honest. But still, if the fella senses that she is suddenly reluctant then he should stop and confirm with her that it's ok to continue.

The onus is on the girl, though. She really needs to make her wishes known if she is adamant that she does not want it to happen and is capable of indicating such. We can't leave the issue of consent up to the fella's ESP if he's had no real negative feedback.

THIS. I agree and I assumed this was a general viewpoint but the Reddit thread convinced me otherwise. A lot of women on that thread disagreed. It really shocked me.

Stheno

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yes but is consent not implied?

Not in my opinion, I actually have had several relationships where the first time we had sex the guy asked if I was comfortable to go ahead.

Rather than killing the moment, it gave me reassurance.

ViveLaVie

Stheno wrote: »

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yes but is consent not implied?

Not in my opinion, I actually have had several relationships where the first time we had sex the guy asked if I was comfortable to go ahead.

Rather than killing the moment, it gave me reassurance.

What if it isn't the first time? Is it okay then?

Lingua Franca

ViveLaVie wrote: »

THIS. I agree and I assumed this was a general viewpoint but the Reddit thread convinced me otherwise. A lot of women on that thread disagreed. It really shocked me.

The problem is that, that's just my opinion about one imaginary scenario. There's so many shades and depths and different circumstances that no one answer fits all.

ViveLaVie wrote: »

What if it isn't the first time? Is it okay then?

Consenting once doesn't mean permanent consent.

Stheno

ViveLaVie wrote: »

What if it isn't the first time? Is it okay then?

Why wouldn't you ask if it's ok, do you just go barging in there for no reason?

Phrased nicely it can actually add to the act?

Lingua Franca

Stheno wrote: »

Phrased nicely it can actually add to the act?

This, very much.,

After many happy years with my partner he will still snuggle up ask in a cheeky manner "Hey, d'ya wanna have sex?!" I find it totally adorable and sexy, and also easy to turn down if I'm not up for it.

Stheno

Lingua Franca wrote: »

This, very much.,

After many happy years with my partner he will still snuggle up ask in a cheeky manner "Hey, d'ya wanna have sex?!" I find it totally adorable and sexy, and also easy to turn down if I'm not up for it.

Exactly this

Love it, makes the anticipation so much more fun

Millicent

policarp wrote: »

There should be no such thing as rape.
A woman with her skirt up can run faster than a man with his trousers down. . .

Hope it's warm under that bridge you're posting from. :rolleyes:

ViveLaVie

I suppose I just mean in a scenario where sexual behaviour has been consented to and initiated by both parties and sex is on the cards and the woman is responding in a favourable way physically. In this situation is consent implied?

Like obviously not just randomly whipping off the clothes and doing it immediately.

mackg

up for anything wrote: »

How is a court supposed to assess levels of drunkenness?



Perhaps the fact that he has to hold a knife at her throat?

In many rapes the person being raped doesn't indicate unwillingness or say an outright no because they are in fear of the rapist and think that by staying quiet they have a better chance of living after the rape. Does that mean that they haven't been raped because they didn't say either verbally or physically? I don't think so.

Even if their is no unwillingness or outright no it's still rape if there is an implied threat and I reckon a knife to the throat would count as one.

Stheno wrote: »

In fairness most men in that state of drunkeness wouldn't be able to get it up?

I imagine that theory would make an interesting prosecution.

policarp

Millicent wrote: »

Hope it's warm under that bridge you're posting from. :rolleyes:

This is After Hours not Personal Issues.
Sorry if my type of weird humour offends you.

randylonghorn

policarp wrote: »

This is After Hours not Personal Issues.
Sorry if my type of weird humour offends you.

It's not the back of the bicycle shed either.

SuperInfinity

ViveLaVie wrote: »

One man said that he is so concerned about accidentally raping a girl that he makes sure to pause before progressing to each sexual act and gain her express verbal consent to continue.

I guess the ol' fantasy rape with whips and chains is out of the question then....

Tombi!

OP, I get that you speaking about women being raped by men. That's fine but here's my take on rape (in general):
If the person doesn't actively give a signal for the go ahead, then you need to stop.
Regardless if it's "okay, I want to have sex" or if they're ripping your clothes off, it's safe to go ahead.

If they're drinking, you should make sure you ask if they want to do it before you start actually having sex even if they're the ones that ripped their own clothes and your clothes of and is on the bed waiting.

I'd imagine if you kiss someone and then stop you/say not to do it again and you do it anyway, that isn't equal to rape exactly but it's still assault and while I wouldn't scream for their head, then I wouldn't trust them.

But to put it bluntly, if your clothes or their clothes need to come off and you're not 100% sure they want it, don't do it. Regardless if it's a man and woman, two men or two women, it should still apply.

Don't anyone get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a rapist if grab a girl's boobs in a club, you're still a bad person and should be punished.
Just make sure the other person is willing and you're fine.

Bipolar Joe

I hate these types of threads. You literally can not make an argument against without being branded a rapist.

Tombi!

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

I hate these types of threads. You literally can not make an argument against without being branded a rapist.

Of course you can once you're not stupid about it.
For example: I think if two people are drunk, it's either both the fault of both parties or else neither is a rapist.

What exactly did you want to make an argument about though?

Gyalist

Rivard told the Journal-Sentinel that his comments were "taken out of context," saying his father meant to convey that if "you do (have premarital sex), just remember, consensual sex can turn into rape in an awful hurry."

"Because all of a sudden a young lady gets pregnant and the parents are madder than a wet hen and she's not going to say, 'Oh, yeah, I was part of the program.' All that she has to say or the parents have to say is it was rape because she's underage. And he just said, 'Remember, Roger, if you go down that road, some girls,' he said, 'they rape so easy,'" Rivard said.

LINK

jill_valentine

SuperInfinity wrote: »

I guess the ol' fantasy rape with whips and chains is out of the question then....

Safety words and hard limits. Go forth and learn.

Boombastic

minidazzler wrote: »

Oh, one more thing from me on it, if a girl consents to sex saying put a condom on and a guy doesn't strap up, that's at very least sexual assault to me, but more probably rape. She didn't consent to non-protected sex.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Agree, but what about the cases where a woman pretends to be on the pill, or other form of contraceptive, would that be the woman guilty of sexual assault or rape?

Stheno wrote: »

Deception at the very least, and if I understand it correctly and the man then gets an STI, assault

Wow - it's not ok for a man for a man to deceive a woman about contraception but it is ok for a woman to deceive a man about contraception, unless the man gets a sti??

Both are as despicable as each other. What if the woman gets pregnant through her own deceit, is she still the victim? - she must be or else there would be more cases of men bringing assault cases against women who lied and ended up pregnant, instead-we give them a monthly wage and a free house.

The Big Red Button

The scary thing is that, in many cases, the exact definition of rape doesn't really matter, because all it's going to come down to is one person's word against another's. And historically the law seems to side in favour of the woman.

If I were a man, I think I'd be terrified of having sex with a woman I didn't know well. Because, no matter how much verbal/implied consent was given at the time, there's always the risk that, afterwards, they'll decide that they hadn't wanted it after all, and decide that it was "rape". Obviously, the only physical evidence (if there is any) is that sexual intercourse took place. So it really will be down to the woman's statement versus the man's.

Feeona

The public worry about being accused of rape reminds me of the public worry of being raped. I'm lucky enough to never have had such an horrible incident happen to me, but there are times when the media report on a rape, and I often think 'What would I do if it happened to me?'. My answer is to take precautions, but not in such a way that my enjoyment of life is limited.

midlandsmissus

chatterpillar wrote: »

The scary thing is that, in many cases, the exact definition of rape doesn't really matter, because all it's going to come down to is one person's word against another's. And historically the law seems to side in favour of the woman.

If I were a man, I think I'd be terrified of having sex with a woman I didn't know well. Because, no matter how much verbal/implied consent was given at the time, there's always the risk that, afterwards, they'll decide that they hadn't wanted it after all, and decide that it was "rape". Obviously, the only physical evidence (if there is any) is that sexual intercourse took place. So it really will be down to the woman's statement versus the man's.

I don't think it happens that way that often Chatterpiller...

af_thefragile

Is it still rape if you yell "surprise!"???

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I don't think it happens that way that often Chatterpiller...

Even an accusation and recanted statement is enough for a man to be tarnished as a rapist in this country, you don't need to be guilty in the eyes of the court to be guilty in the eyes of everyone else.

midlandsmissus

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Yes I believe that is rape, absolutely. She was intimidated.

Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?

He should ask her 'Does she want to have sex?'

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

He should ask her 'Does she want to have sex?'

In his scenario, penetration has already occured after seeming welcome, so if she says no now, and he with draws, has rape occured?

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

Even an accusation and recanted statement is enough for a man to be tarnished as a rapist in this country, you don't need to be guilty in the eyes of the court to be guilty in the eyes of everyone else.

Obviously I don't know everyone in the country.

Just from my experience of my circle of female acquaintances who nearly all have spoken about an incident to me that distressed them at some time in their lives.

It was never a case of - that they had sex and then she regretted it,it was a always a case of saying no and that person going ahead anyway, or that person actually using physical force. These were all by acquaintances/ boyfriends or at house parties etc.

I know so many women upset about things that happened years ago. And I,myself am another one.

If there is so much suffering among women,and believe me there is, things are not working the way they are. I think men should ask any woman 'Do you want to have sex' before doing it, it would be a better world.

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

In his scenario, penetration has already occured after seeming welcome, so if she says no now, and he with draws, has rape occured?

No. I would say it's bad practice,and he should learn from it, and always ask in future.

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

No. I would say it's bad practice,and he should learn from it, and always ask in future.

When everything points to sex happening, a girl pulling him in, taking some of his clothes off etc. While asking is best practice it's not necessarily needed if the situation "feels" right. The girl needs to take a bit of personal responsibility too and if she is uncomfortable say stop.

I've no need to respond to your last post, I agree with pretty much every point it IS best practice, but if everything points towards sex and nothing was said in the negative, even if a guy doesn't ask specifically it's NOT rape. If he doesn't think what he is doing is against her will then he isn't raping her.

Procrastastudy

There is nothing to stop a woman withdrawing consent in the middle of the act, even if it was there before. If you don't withdraw your penis - it's rape. Pick up any criminal law text book, there's loads of different scenarios discussed. What makes it more complicated it there doesn't just have to be the physical act (Actus reus) there has to be a mental element as well (Mens rea).

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

When everything points to sex happening, a girl pulling him in, taking some of his clothes off etc. While asking is best practice it's not necessarily needed if the situation "feels" right. The girl needs to take a bit of personal responsibility too and if she is uncomfortable say stop.

I've no need to respond to your last post, I agree with pretty much every point it IS best practice, but if everything points towards sex and nothing was said in the negative, even if a guy doesn't ask specifically it's NOT rape. If he doesn't think what he is doing is against her will then he isn't raping her.

Minidazzler, there's a difference, if she's pulling him into her - obviously I would say she wants to have sex.

If the girl is lying there, or has not made moves that explicitly suggest she wants to move to full sex, - ask.

Like if I for example was giving my boyfriend a blow job, I would no way just stop and jump up and have sex with him, I'd get his consent! I would ask - do you want to.

It makes sense - it's all about being respectful for the other person.

shopaholic01

The easiest way for a man to gain consent is simply to ask 'shall I put a condom on now?'. A woman can express a desire for intercourse by asking a man to put a condom on.

Both partners have a responsibility to ensure the other is comfortable with what is happening, and to be clear if they themselves are not comfortable.

Forced to have sex under fear of attack is rape (I include vaginal, oral, anal and digital/object penetration in that definition), as is someone having sex with you if they are comatose.

As for a woman lying about being on the pill, well that's an unbelievably shitty thing to do. I'm surprised so many men are willing to believe this, especially if both partners have not been screened for STI's. I certainly wouldn't believe a man who just told me 'it's alright babe I'm on the pill'.

Procrastastudy

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Like if I for example was giving my boyfriend a blow job, I would no way just stop and jump up and have sex with him, I'd get his consent! I would ask - do you want to.

You cant rape your boyfriend though.

minidazzler

Procrastastudy wrote: »

There is nothing to stop a woman withdrawing consent in the middle of the act, even if it was there before. If you don't withdraw your penis - it's rape. Pick up any criminal law text book, there's loads of different scenarios discussed. What makes it more complicated it there doesn't just have to be the physical act (Actus reus) there has to be a mental element as well (Mens rea).

Which is what I'm getting at, she may WANT him to stop, but does she do anything to stop it. Saying to him to Stop in an assertive manner or physically pushing him away.

It's very easy for a woman to decide during that she doesn't want, yet lie back and let him finish, only to make a complaint later. We can't be expected to ask every 30 seconds if she still wants to have sex. If a lady doesn't tell me stop or give me a feeling that she wants me to stop, I wouldn't not know that I should.

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Minidazzler, there's a difference, if she's pulling him into her - obviously I would say she wants to have sex.

If the girl is lying there, or has not made moves that explicitly suggest she wants to move to full sex, - ask.

I agree completely.

Procrastastudy

minidazzler wrote: »

Which is what I'm getting at, she may WANT him to stop, but does she do anything to stop it. Saying to him to Stop in an assertive manner or physically pushing him away.

It's very easy for a woman to decide during that she doesn't want, yet lie back and let him finish, only to make a complaint later. We can't be expected to ask every 30 seconds if she still wants to have sex. If a lady doesn't tell me stop or give me a feeling that she wants me to stop, I wouldn't not know that I should.

Lets say she does do that. You would be committing the Actus reus of rape but you wouldn't have the mens rea - you couldn't (shouldn't) be convicted. In reality there is case law on the point that she must make it clear that you have to stop.

shopaholic01

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Like if I for example was giving my boyfriend a blow job, I would no way just stop and jump up and have sex with him, I'd get his consent! I would ask - do you want to.
It makes sense - it's all about being respectful for the other person.

I would have thought that if you are in a relationship you would know the person well enough to know it was ok to proceed. Going by this scenario I rape my OH regularly. If either of us didn't want sex we would simply say so at the start.

minidazzler wrote: »

We can't be expected ask every 30 seconds if she still wants to have sex. If a lady doesn't tell me stop or give me a feeling that she wants me to stop, I wouldn't not know that I should.

I have to say I agree with this, minidazzler. Being asked repeatedly during sex would be a complete turnoff too. If you're having sex and are obviously engaging willingly there should be no need to ask. Lying there like a sack of potatoes where you are obviously not enjoying is obvious to the other partner - ask then.

shopaholic01

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You cant rape your boyfriend though.

A woman can - and many do - rape a man

Hersheys

Procrastastudy wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Like if I for example was giving my boyfriend a blow job, I would no way just stop and jump up and have sex with him, I'd get his consent! I would ask - do you want to.

You cant rape your boyfriend though.

What about a sneaky finger up the bum that your boyfriend wasn't comfortable with? Rape is undesired penetration...

Procrastastudy

Hersheys wrote: »

What about a sneaky finger up the bum that your boyfriend wasn't comfortable with? Rape is undesired penetration...

Not by a woman. Has to be by a man and has to be a mickey. You've described sexual assault.

luckyfrank

what if you have sex with your wife when she's passed out drunk, tell her the next morning and she doesnt mind, Is that rape