What is rape?

minidazzler

shopaholic01 wrote: »

A woman can - and many do - rape a man

Not from a legal standpoint in this country. (which is what Procrastastudy seems to be getting at) Anything done to a man is sexual assault.

Procrastastudy

luckyfrank wrote: »

what if you have sex with your wife when she's passed out drunk, tell her the next morning and she doesnt mind, Is that rape

Yes but one where no complaint is made.

minidazzler

luckyfrank wrote: »

what if you have sex with your wife when she's passed out drunk, tell her the next morning and she doesnt mind, Is that rape

If she did mind it would be rape. Presumably it's the kinda thing you would have discussed with your wife?

While I am not saying there is no such thing as marital rape, presumably there'd be some level of implied consent in a marriage where limits have been discussed.

Procrastastudy

minidazzler wrote: »

Not from a legal standpoint in this country. (which is what Procrastastudy seems to be getting at) Anything done to a man is sexual assault.

She might be able to under 'section 4' rape but I'd have to go look it up to be sure and frankly I can't be arsed! Suffice it to say using woman bits on man bits a woman cant rape a man.

shopaholic01

minidazzler wrote: »

Not from a legal standpoint in this country. (which is what Procrastastudy seems to be getting at) Anything done to a man is sexual assault.

By definition that is still rape. This proves the point that the law is an ass.


It's amazing how legislation favours women in both criminal cases of rape/sexual assault and in family law. It's unfair and outdated.

Boombastic

minidazzler wrote: »

If she did mind it would be rape. Presumably it's the kinda thing you would have discussed with your wife?

While I am not saying there is no such thing as marital rape, presumably there'd be some level of implied consent in a marriage where limits have been discussed.

Darling do you mind if I have sex with you while your unconscious from the drink? Please sign this statement here in advance

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

Which is what I'm getting at, she may WANT him to stop, but does she do anything to stop it. Saying to him to Stop in an assertive manner or physically pushing him away.

It's very easy for a woman to decide during that she doesn't want, yet lie back and let him finish, only to make a complaint later. We can't be expected to ask every 30 seconds if she still wants to have sex. If a lady doesn't tell me stop or give me a feeling that she wants me to stop, I wouldn't not know that I should.

Lets not get stupid about this.

No-one is saying you should stop and ask every 30 seconds.

He is referring to if the woman wants to stop during the act and says stop she is entitled to. And you should stop.No-one is expecting you tomind read.

Procrastastudy

shopaholic01 wrote: »

By definition that is still rape. This proves the point that the law is an ass.


It's amazing how legislation favours women in both criminal cases of rape/sexual assault and in family law. It's unfair and outdated.

Its much more complicated than just saying the law is an ass. That said Irish legislation on the issue, and that of statutory rape, does favour the female and is pretty out moded. One suggestion is that it's because of pregnancy.

minidazzler

shopaholic01 wrote: »

By definition that is still rape. This proves the point that the law is an ass.


It's amazing how legislation favours women in both criminal cases of rape/sexual assault and in family law. It's unfair and outdated.

And lets not even get into our romeo-juliet law where a girl can legally commit statutory rape with another even younger minor and he have charges leveled against him.

JonSnuuu

minidazzler wrote: »

Not from a legal standpoint in this country. (which is what Procrastastudy seems to be getting at) Anything done to a man is sexual assault.

What about a man being raped by another man? Is that considered rape in Ireland or sexual assault too?

midlandsmissus

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I would have thought that if you are in a relationship you would know the person well enough to know it was ok to proceed. Going by this scenario I rape my OH regularly. If either of us didn't want sex we would simply say so at the start.


I have to say I agree with this, minidazzler. Being asked repeatedly during sex would be a complete turnoff too. If you're having sex and are obviously engaging willingly there should be no need to ask. Lying there like a sack of potatoes where you are obviously not enjoying is obvious to the other partner - ask then.

Again let's not get stupid about this - if you have a system in your relationship that works and no-one has ever complained then of course it's fine. You have got that decided - that you will tell each other if you're not comfortable. I would always ask,and I would want to always be asked. It all comes down to both people being happy,and respect being there.

minidazzler

Boombastic wrote: »

Darling do you mind if I have sex with you while your unconscious from the drink? Please sign this statement here in advance

In one of my relationships both of us were big drinkers, and the first time she passed out half way through sex I stopped and said it to her the next morning. She laughed and said that once we start it continue at my leisure even if she passes out. Just don't go past the discussed limits It's not like it's an awkward conversation.

shopaholic01

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Its much more complicated than just saying the law is an ass. That said Irish legislation on the issue, and that of statutory rape, does favour the female and is pretty out moded. One suggestion is that it's because of pregnancy.

I assume these laws were passed prior to the ready availability of contraception? I know in the case of rape contraception (bar emergency contraception) is unlikey to be used unless the woman is using some form already, but the idea that a woman can't rape a man is simply ludricious.

minidazzler

johnt91 wrote: »

What about a man being raped by another man? Is that considered rape in Ireland or sexual assault too?

AFAIR that's sexual assault because the definition of Rape specifically mentions penis and vagina. Which is probably the reason the meedja in this country always referred to the churches rape of children as the "child sex abuse" scandal. rather than child rape scandal.

HeyThereDeliah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Like if I for example was giving my boyfriend a blow job, I would no way just stop and jump up and have sex with him, I'd get his consent! I would ask - do you want to.

The way you describe this makes it sound like a business transaction.
It's two people enjoying each other and stopping asking "do you want" would be a turn off and would kill the moment.

midlandsmissus

luckyfrank wrote: »

what if you have sex with your wife when she's passed out drunk, tell her the next morning and she doesnt mind, Is that rape

That's rape.

midlandsmissus

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

The way you describe this makes it sound like a business transaction.
It's two people enjoying each other and stopping asking "do you want" would be a turn off and would kill the moment.

Not for me. I felt the most happiest and respected when I was with a man who asked me 'Do you want to have sex'. It made the experience so much better for me because I felt safe, trusted and respected.

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That's rape.

You're the one that brought up a system that works in a relationship. So really it's a discussion between him and his wife, it's not quite as simple as saying it's rape just because she's not awake, it depends on their own boundaries.

UCDVet

The legal definition of rape doesn't matter. You can ask for verbal confirmation at every step of the encounter and your partner can say 'Yes' to each.

The next day, presuming you two were alone, it's still a matter of 'she said' verse 'he said' (assuming heterosexuals). And in our society, whether it is right or not, women are still viewed as weaker and more vulnerable whereas men are seen as stronger and predatorial.

In many places they'll even print the accused's name in the local paper; but not the alleged victim's name. And for most people, simple reading that someone was arrested or accused of something means 'He is probably guilty'.

In short, all it takes is an accusation to potentially ruin your life; particularly if you are male and 10x more likely if you work with students or children in any way.

Procrastastudy

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I assume these laws were passed prior to the ready availability of contraception?

You'd think that; but I believe the quote was an obiter comment made by the current Chief Justice Denham. BTW do be aware of the fact that the law doesn't provide for sexual assault by a woman against a man. There is some arguments that the law should skew slightly towards the female as the procedure, rightly, skews in favour of the accused (male).

shopaholic01

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Again let's not get stupid about this - if you have a system in your relationship that works and no-one has ever complained then of course it's fine. You have got that decided - that you will tell each other if you're not comfortable. I would always ask,and I would want to always be asked. It all comes down to both people being happy,and respect being there.

I'm not getting stupid, it just seems a bit OTT to always ask before having penetration. In the situation you gave would you have obtained your boyfriends permission prior to giving him a blowjob? I know all relationships are different, and you're comfortable with yours, but it just sounds like a mood killer.

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

You're the one that brought up a system that works in a relationship. So really it's a discussion between him and his wife, it's not quite as simple as saying it's rape just because she's not awake, it depends on their own boundaries.

Come on! There's a difference with setting boundaries and acceptabilities in a relationship and having sex with your unconscious girlfriend!

I'm fairly sure that the law classifies if the person is incapable of giving consent then it is clearly rape.

Come on, are you telling me you think having sex with an unconscious person is a good idea? What world are we in????

HeyThereDeliah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Not for me. I felt the most happiest and respected when I was with a man who asked me 'Do you want to have sex'. It made the experience so much better for me because I felt safe, trusted and respected.

That's fair enough.
In your example you are giving him a BJ so it's safe to assume he is enjoying it or he would have stopped you in this scenario having sex would seem like the natural thing to do.

If one partner has oral and is satisfied but then says no don't want sex how does the other person feel?

minidazzler

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Come on! There's a difference with setting boundaries and acceptabilities in a relationship and having sex with your unconscious girlfriend!

I'm fairly sure that the law classifies if the person is incapable of giving consent then it is clearly rape.

Come on, are you telling me you think having sex with an unconscious person is a good idea? What world are we in????

I have an earlier post in this thread about it. If sex was initiated and a girlfriend of mine passed out, she wanted me to continue. I stopped the first time, after that she told me to simply respect the things she doesn't want to do.

That extended to sexual wake ups for each of us too. Maybe I am guilty of sexual assault now, but my mind isn't guilty given that I did have consent.

midlandsmissus

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I'm not getting stupid, it just seems a bit OTT to always ask before having penetration. In the situation you gave would you have obtained your boyfriends permission prior to giving him a blowjob? I know all relationships are different, and you're comfortable with yours, but it just sounds like a mood killer.

Not ask every step of the way, just be clear that that person is happy with what you're doing.

Respect for each other is the key.

shopaholic01

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You'd think that; but I believe the quote was an obiter comment made by the current Chief Justice Denham. BTW do be aware of the fact that the law doesn't provide for sexual assault by a woman against a man. There is some arguments that the law should skew slightly towards the female as the procedure, rightly, skews in favour of the accused (male).

This is only true where a woman is the victim.

No wonder so few men are willing to report being sexually assaulted by either a man or a woman - many are ridiculed, especially if they were assaulted by a woman ('man-up/'sure you must have enjoyed it' etc), and if they do the perpetrator is likely to get away lightly.

2rkehij30qtza5

If someone says "no" and the man continues anyway, that's rape. If the woman is inebriated and the man is not (say in a one-night-stand situation) where the woman would not be in a fit state to know what she was doing, but the man is, then that's rape. If it's a committed relationship with very regular sex then I don't think this would apply unless of course the woman said no.
Two very equally inebriated people having consensual sex is not rape to me. It's when a person in a more vulnerable position is taken advantage of or ignored when they say no, then that's rape.

Procrastastudy

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

That's fair enough.
In your example you are giving him a BJ so it's safe to assume he is enjoying it or he would have stopped you in this scenario having sex would seem like the natural thing to do.

If one partner has oral and is satisfied but then says no don't want sex how does the other person feel?

There's a difference between not feeling good and vitiating consent. Someone can be in quite a bit of pain but still be consenting. This is up to a point however - see R v Brown.

RoyalMarine

if a man wakes up to his gf giving him head, is that rape?

99.99999% no, its an amazing day.

Procrastastudy

Barbara Mealy Bathhouse wrote: »

If the woman is inebriated and the man is not (say in a one-night-stand situation) where the woman would not be in a fit state to know what she was doing, but the man is, then that's rape.

This is very nuanced and requires the jury to be instructed correctly. It's not a case of being an objective outside observer, you have to look at what was going on in the mind of the accused. The standard of mens rea for rape in that situation is recklessness but it's not impossible to imagine situations here the guy doesn't have the elements needed to convict him.

midlandsmissus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

This is very nuanced and requires the jury to be instructed correctly. It's not a case of being an objective outside observer, you have to look at what was going on in the mind of the accused. The standard of mens rea for rape in that situation is recklessness but it's not impossible to imagine situations here the guy doesn't have the elements needed to convict him.

Hi Procrasta, you seem to know alot about this, do you work in this area? I'll pm you, would like your advice on something.

Hippo

Procrastastudy wrote: »

This is very nuanced and requires the jury to be instructed correctly. It's not a case of being an objective outside observer, you have to look at what was going on in the mind of the accused. The standard of mens rea for rape in that situation is recklessness but it's not impossible to imagine situations here the guy doesn't have the elements needed to convict him.

Of course the subjective opinion of the accused is just an element to be considered by the jury in their deliberations; the less 'reasonable' the accused's belief the less likely it is to be believed.

Procrastastudy

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Hi Procrasta, you seem to know alot about this, do you work in this area? I'll pm you, would like your advice on something.

Know a lot is a huge overstatement. I'm a fairly average second year law student.

Procrastastudy

Hippo wrote: »

Of course the subjective opinion of the accused is just an element to be considered by the jury in their deliberations; the less 'reasonable' the accused's belief the less likely it is to be believed.

Yes sorry my post was very badly phrased. It is an objective observation but not an entirely detached one... that's still not making a lot of sense. What I mean to say is its very much case by case and not a great idea to try and attach clear cut rules to.

HeyThereDeliah

Procrastastudy wrote: »

There's a difference between not feeling good and vitiating consent. Someone can be in quite a bit of pain but still be consenting. This is up to a point however - see R v Brown.

I'm not sure what you are saying here or the relevance of it tbh.

Procrastastudy

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are saying here or the relevance of it tbh.

I've possibly misunderstood your post - I assumed it was On Topic but perhaps it was just about feelings?

ViveLaVie

As a female, I personally wouldn't like for a man to ask me if I want to have sex when I am making it clear by virtue of my actions that I do.

I feel like lines can be crossed here though simply because so many people disagree.

If a woman doesn't want sex once it has started and hasn't said no but lets it happen has she been raped? Posters are saying 'just ask' which is the ideal in this scenario but if he doesn't? Can she legitimately claim rape?

Procrastastudy

ViveLaVie wrote: »

If a woman doesn't want sex once it has started and hasn't said no but lets it happen has she been raped? Posters are saying 'just ask' which is the ideal in this scenario but if he doesn't? Can she legitimately claim rape?

Its less of a case of 'has she been raped' and more 'has the man committed a rape'. The woman may feel the former has happened but legally speaking the man hasn't committed a rape because he is under the impression there is ongoing consent.

Potatoeman

It seems quite insulting to women to assume that they cannot make their opinion known and to assume they are victim. What happened to no means no?

Procrastastudy

Potatoeman wrote: »

It seems quite insulting to women to assume that they cannot make their opinion known and to assume they are victim. What happened to no means no?

For no to mean no someone has to say no.

No one is advocating 'silence means consent' but where the act has started it requires a positive act to vitiate consent. Thats assuming the act started with consent.

GalwayGuy2

The woman may feel the former has happened but legally speaking the man hasn't committed a rape because he is under the impression there is ongoing consent.

Don't some rapists believe that the women are just "playing hard to get" or that no=yes?

Just going to quote my own post:O

Agree, but what about the cases where a woman pretends to be on the pill, or other form of contraceptive, would that be the woman guilty of sexual assault or rape?

Would it be rape if she deliberately wanted a child and she did get pregnant? Or the roles were reversed and the man wanted to have a child? Would both or only one case be rape?
And what sort of can of worms would that be if the woman was convicted of rape while having the man's child?

Hippo

A woman cannot be guilty of rape, she is physically unable to commit the essential elements of the illegal act.

Procrastastudy

Hippo wrote: »

A woman cannot be guilty of rape, she is physically unable to commit the essential elements of the illegal act.

She commit 'section 4' rape but I *THINK* it has to be on another woman.

Hippo

Procrastastudy wrote: »

She commit 'section 4' rape but I *THINK* it has to be on another woman.

Yep I was answering in the context of statements above, should've used the quote function. S4 is specific to the use of objects iirc

UCDVet

Hippo wrote: »

A woman cannot be guilty of rape, she is physically unable to commit the essential elements of the illegal act.

Women can (and do) commit rape.

Procrastastudy

UCDVet wrote: »

Women can (and do) commit rape.

How? I think the discussion is limited to Ireland.

shopaholic01

Hippo wrote: »

Yep I was answering in the context of statements above, should've used the quote function. S4 is specific to the use of objects iirc

I made reference to women raping men - I now know that from a legal point of view that it's classed as sexual assault. The legal distinction is based on anatomy only, as far as I can tell (again I may be incorrect).

It's seem very unfair - a woman can forcibly have sex with a man, but because she doesn't have a penis and therefore doesn't penetrate a man, it's a less serious offence. However, forcing a man to penetrate a woman should really be viewed to be as violating.

Apologies if I am incorrect again!

Madam Marie

Hippo wrote: »

A woman cannot be guilty of rape, she is physically unable to commit the essential elements of the illegal act.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/nurse-who-raped-woman-in-hotel-toilet-starts-appeal-2641769.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118300/Rebecca-Helen-Elder-accused-raping-man-breaking-house-stand-trial.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/black-widow-woman-who-drugged-raped-ten-men/story-e6freuy9-1225737488169

Hippo

UCDVet wrote: »

Women can (and do) commit rape.

No they cannot, not legally, if that's what we're discussing. It is AH though, so I'm out of here, shouldn't have started!

minidazzler

Madam Marie wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/nurse-who-raped-woman-in-hotel-toilet-starts-appeal-2641769.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118300/Rebecca-Helen-Elder-accused-raping-man-breaking-house-stand-trial.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/black-widow-woman-who-drugged-raped-ten-men/story-e6freuy9-1225737488169

If you read the post in the literal sense and in the context of Ireland, he is right. A woman cannot be guilty of Rape because it's not what the crime is called here.