Vegetarianism - would you try it?

nervous_twitch

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I've never been a vegetarian and I never will be. I know far too much about nutritional science and evolutionary biology to ever think that it's either good or natural. I also don't have the moral compass of a five year old

I love a good superiority complex of a Monday morning

DB21

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I've never been a vegetarian and I never will be. I know far too much about nutritional science and evolutionary biology to ever think that it's either good or natural. I also don't have the moral compass of a five year old

I'm so very tempted to take up the argument against you on this. However, I doubt any reasonable scientist/person using scientific argument would have included that last sentence. So, I shall not waste my time arguing against someone as pig-headed (heh) to believe that all non-meat eaters have the moral compass of a five year old. Good day, sir.

--Kaiser--

DB21 wrote: »

I'm so very tempted to take up the argument against you on this.

Are you one of those vegetarians who attempts to argue that humans are naturally herbivorous? If so then don't bother

Shenshen

humbert wrote: »

No, I didn't say I would increase the consumption of those things. I wouldn't have to. That's the point. I could just drop white bread. I'd say there's a better chance of my health improving as a result that deteriorating.

(All the fullstops make that paragraph look like a telegram)

I think you can only really do that if white bread is not an everyday part of your diet, otherwise you'll have to substitue it for something.
If you have two slices of toast for breakfast normally, and you decided to cut out the bread, surely you would substitute it? Or would you just go with a cup of tea and a handful of jam?

L.Jenkins

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

You either didn't read or didn't understand any word of my post

By consuming a vegatarian meal, like one should consume junk food in moderation, it can't hurt. Some of the best food I've tasted have vegatarian.

Dravokivich

Shenshen wrote: »

I think you can only really do that if white bread is not an everyday part of your diet, otherwise you'll have to substitue it for something.
If you have two slices of toast for breakfast normally, and you decided to cut out the bread, surely you would substitute it? Or would you just go with a cup of tea and a handful of jam?

Ah come on in civilized society these days, we can use spoons! :pac:

admiralofthefleet

god no. i love meat too much

DyldeBrill

Could never go veggie!

Nothing better than a good steak, or roast dinner on a Sunday! Would be in no mood to be eating those Linda McCartney Veggie Sausages as a substitute meaty treat

darlett

_GOD_ wrote: »

The trick is that veggie bbqs dont have to be healthy.
you can make really good veggie burgers with 2 tins of black beans mixed with breadcrumbs, black pepper, flour and cholula chipotle hot sauce. It takes about 2 minutes to make and is deadly. If you go to the effort of making guacamole its goes really well with it too. you can also throw some linda mc carthney sausages on and portabello mushrooms.

Agh, see that does sound good. Its bizarre thinking of all the times Ive been stuck for something to cook a vegetarian, and paniced into going the frozen veggie burger route, never even considering the option to make one which sounds a very superior bite. Oh well theres always next time.

bbam wrote: »

Just for interest sake why do most people give up meat?
It it an animal rights issue, do you not miss meat, I can't imagine not having a nice medium rib eye steak, nothing comes close in taste or sadisfaxtion from a meal.

seamus wrote: »

I don't think there is a "most" answer tbh. Every vegetarian has their own reasons and most will differ in one way or another as to their reasonsing.

Im going to be a bit anecdotal and possibly overly simple/silly. Off the top of my head I can think of about 10 vegetarians I know, 3 in particular are good friends. What all these vegetarians have in common is that they are...female. I dont know of any males personally who are vegetarian-but Im not saying they dont exist :P In this thread Ive seen evidence that they do. Question: Are there any stats to show on a large scale a difference in the ratio.
Females are generally more given to compassion. Males are generally more given to justice. Psychology 101 right there. I believe the justice approach is a bit like "we can get the nutrient elsewhere and its more healthy vs we treat the animals correctly, we need the nutrients, we ll eat them". Compassion argument is a bit more based on "I dont wish to eat something that was living or has a face vs...eh its just too tasty-or we re MEANT to eat meat". Basically theres no real way of beating the compassionate argument apart from been able to ignore it which males are 'better' able to do. From conversations with my vegetarian friends this is the most common reason I've heard for their giving up meat. Thats my overly simplified opinion

mrsoundie

Just had a Ham Sandwhich. Yum Yum!

Gauss

At what point does an organism become immoral to kill. Is it wrong to kill flies or bacteria?

iDave

mrsoundie wrote: »

Just had a Ham Sandwhich. Yum Yum!

Chicken curry myself. Yum Yum

Shenshen

Gauss wrote: »

At what point does an organism become immoral to kill. Is it wrong to kill flies or bacteria?

Again, personal decision.
I would say that trying not to kill bacteria is taking it definitely a little too far, considering that in evolutionary development terms, they are not as far along as plants.
And aside from the moral aspect, it's not exactly practical.

humbert

Shenshen wrote: »

I think you can only really do that if white bread is not an everyday part of your diet, otherwise you'll have to substitue it for something.
If you have two slices of toast for breakfast normally, and you decided to cut out the bread, surely you would substitute it? Or would you just go with a cup of tea and a handful of jam?

Say it's a fry with a couple of slices of bread? But to prevent this getting very ridiculous, meat satisfies a nutritional requirement in most people's diet that the other components of their diet would not make up for. White bread doesn't.

humbert

Gauss wrote: »

At what point does an organism become immoral to kill. Is it wrong to kill flies or bacteria?

For me it's when the creature becomes self-aware. That makes it ok for me to eat fans of reality tv.

Shenshen

humbert wrote: »

Say it's a fry with a couple of slices of bread? But to prevent this getting very ridiculous, meat satisfies a nutritional requirement in most people's diet that the other components of their diet would not make up for. White bread doesn't.

Again, that would depend on how much white bread the person in question is eating.
Some people will eat it 3 meals a day, so if they were to cut it out it would need replacing, as it's their main source of carbohydrates.

By the same token, some people eat very small quantities of meat, and only once or twice a week. They wouldn't need to replace anything much if they cut it out altogether.

TheFruitarian

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Are you one of those vegetarians who attempts to argue that humans are naturally herbivorous? If so then don't bother

Why not? Afraid some long held beliefs might get challenged?

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/todays-paper/tp-life/article2204749.ece

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I also don't have the moral compass of a five year old

Well maybe you should - as if you left a five year old in a garden with Fruits, Tender Greens and Rabbit, I know which one my money is on them biting into first.

Mousewar

Einhard wrote: »

Cows and sundry animals are slaughtered for more than just food- animal by-products are in a myriad of items we use daily, from jelly babies to leather shoes. Do you also refrain from those things? Just curious. I don't really get why somebody would go vegetarian because of the alleged cruelty, and not go fully vegan.

As for moi- I love meat too much to ever go veggie. I do try to buy free range stuff though, and try to buy as ethically as possible.

Those who have gone vegetarian for ethical reasons but don't get themselves in knots about the fact that they have a pair of leather shoes or whatever do so for the same reason that someone buys a Prius but doesn't have geothermal heating at home. We recognise somewhere in our lives where we could reduce our impact on something significant and act accordingly.
So I am a vegetarian for 12 years now but I am not a vegan even though I think it would be a superior effort - simply because I'm not currently willing and able to go that further step. Hopefully, I can someday soon.

However, the effort that I am currently making is not worthless just because I still occasionally use animal byproducts. Just like the effort of someone who chooses to drive an eco-friendly car is not worthless just because he hasn't made himself 100% carbon neutral.

Ultimately, this is about the animals - not about ego trips for veggies or vegans. Accusations of hypocrisy (not saying you're making any accusations personally) are pointless as the impact someone makes by not eating meat is not negated because they still wear a leather belt.

For me, as a veggie of 12 years, I actually do not think it is morally wrong to kill and eat animals. Clearly, it is a part of the natural order. However, what is not part of the natural order is mass farming animals, reducing their entire existence to serving humans. When a hunter went out hundreds of years ago and killed and ate an animal (sometimes saying a prayer of thanks to the animal's spirit - and religious beliefs are irrelevant here, it's merely offered as a display of respect) there was a certain dignity and balance to it. Having cows and pigs born into captivity, and then conveyor-belted to execution and then to our dinner tables strikes me personally as having very little dignity.

humbert

Shenshen wrote: »

Again, that would depend on how much white bread the person in question is eating.
Some people will eat it 3 meals a day, so if they were to cut it out it would need replacing, as it's their main source of carbohydrates.

By the same token, some people eat very small quantities of meat, and only once or twice a week. They wouldn't need to replace anything much if they cut it out altogether.

I'm sorry, but that's an absurd argument. You are effectively saying that giving up meat is not more difficult than giving up white bread because if someone was eating almost no meat and another person was eating an enormous amount of white bread giving them up would be similar.

Shenshen

humbert wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that's an absurd argument. You are effectively saying that giving up meat is not more difficult than giving up white bread because if someone was eating almost no meat and another person was eating an enormous amount of white bread giving them up would be similar.

No, the opposite.
It's easy to give up something you eat very little of to begin with, be it bread or meat. And it wouldn't need substitution.
However, it's difficult to cut out something you eat lots of, and you will need to look around what to replace it with.

wes

I find the entire notion of giving up meat, to be rather silly. I would btw feel the exact same way about being asked if I was willing to give up vegtables.

I find either notion equally silly.

DB21

wes wrote: »

Ì find the entire notion of giving up meat, to be rather silly.

Why though? Is it simply down to tradition? Because there are proven health benefits if you cut out out even just red meat.

humbert

Shenshen wrote: »

It's easy to give up something you eat very little of to begin with, be it bread or meat. And it wouldn't need substitution.
However, it's difficult to cut out something you eat lots of, and you will need to look around what to replace it with.

That's restating the same point, is still taking extreme cases and is still ignoring the thrust of my point, that meat satisfies a much greater nutritional requirement than white bread which is particularly lacking in nutrition.

wes

DB21 wrote: »

Why though? Is it simply down to tradition? Because there are proven health benefits if you cut out out even just red meat.

Tradition? I am an omnivore, so I eat both.

As for health, well seeing as the advice I have gotten from various professionals such as Doctors, nutrionists etc, have never said I should get rid of meat. I would trust those people, over people who are trying to either defend there own choices, or preach about them.

Now, if someone wants to eat vegatables, then more power to them, but again if someone asks me to try it, I will be honest and say I find the entire thing silly, same as if someone asked me to give up vegtables.

Da Shins Kelly

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Maybe "lecturing" was the wrong word. Smugness or self-righteousness might be more appropriate.

No it wouldn't. And I haven't seen any "lecturing" or "self-righteousness" or "smugness" from anyone really apart from a couple of people who feel the need to immediately attack vegetarian or vegan lifestyles.

Zillah

I've been vegetarian for about two months now. I had been building up to it for about a year I would say. Back then I decided that I agreed with them in principle but didn't have the discipline to actually do it. I did, however, find myself eating less and less meat, and one day I realised it had been a full week since I had eaten any, so I said "Y'know what, I'm gonna do it". It's been really really easy. Only two things have been a problem so far; a very small percentage of restaurants have bad vegetarian options, and people seem to think choosing not to eat animals should make me a target for ridicule. Cost has not been a factor, nor has variety, health or meal-satisfaction...although I did have one hiccup where I ate a chicken nugget at a party and only two hours later suddenly went "...wait a second...whoops".

I'm getting really sick of people asking me why I am a vegetarian, and then rolling their eyes, making faces or getting angry and defensive when I answer them. If you're not genuinely curious then just fuck off please. I've had people start making faces literally before I have finished a sentence along the lines of "I don't think animals should have to suffer needlessly..."

I could write an essay on my reasons, but I think this would be the summary: That is a really horrible way to treat creatures that can experience pain and fear, and I think we should be better than that. In a modern society we are perfectly capable of living a healthy, happy life without eating animals - they die not for our survival but for our pleasure, and it is petty and cruel to kill them to take their flesh.

On the weekend I had a distant relative tell me that she felt animals were put here for us by God...she also didn't believe in evolution, so I'm not sure it is worth having a discussion there.

LisaLee

I was a vegetarian for about 2 years back in my teens. It was watching a bullfight live on TV when I was in Spain that put me off eating animals. There's lots of tasty alternatives, but a rasher sandwich was just too tempting after one horrible hangover. :P

Haven't looked back since, although I still like Linda McCartney sausages and veggie burgers, nom!

Dravokivich

Zillah wrote: »

On the weekend I had a distant relative tell me that she felt animals were put here for us by God...she also didn't believe in evolution, so I'm not sure it is worth having a discussion there.

All that does is show an opinion you have of your relative. It's not how other/all people associate food when it comes to meat, or any other ideas such as evolution.

Gauss

DB21 wrote: »

wes wrote: »

Ì find the entire notion of giving up meat, to be rather silly.

Why though? Is it simply down to tradition? Because there are proven health benefits if you cut out out even just red meat.

No that's based on bad science whereby they assume correlation equals causation.

You are worse off nutritionally not eating red meat.

Gluten and vegetable oil are two of the biggest dangers to our health, not red meat.

Zillah

Dravokivich wrote: »

All that does is show an opinion you have of your relative. It's not how other/all people associate food when it comes to meat, or any other ideas such as evolution.

I know. It just came to mind as it was yesterday.

Sleepy

Far too fond of my meat to even consider it really.

Even if I wasn't, I'd find it too much hassle to be a veggie: Quorn and other meat substitutes are horrible crap so I'd have to develop an entirely new set of tastes and repertoire of meals I can cook rather than simply modifying existing ones and trying to ensure protein content was high enough would be a challenge too (especially if you went the whole hog and went vegan).

Then there's the hassle of eating out: as none of my friends are vegetarian I'd have to be the awkward one insisting on restaurants that do decent veggie options, or worse, have to ask people to take my new eating habits into consideration if I was coming around to theirs for dinner etc.

It's simply too much work for no real reward and I hate putting other people out.

seamus

Dravokivich wrote: »

All that does is show an opinion you have of your relative. It's not how other/all people associate food when it comes to meat, or any other ideas such as evolution.

Although it is a good example - there are just as many people out there with reasons why we should eat meat that are as irrational and bat**** crazy as anything the crustiest hippy can come up with

--Kaiser--

DB21 wrote: »

Why though? Is it simply down to tradition? Because there are proven health benefits if you cut out out even just red meat.

No there aren't.
You may be referring to the China Study (refutal here) or the recent Harvard Red Meat study (debunked here)

--Kaiser--

TheFruitarian wrote: »

Why not? Afraid some long held beliefs might get challenged?

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/todays-paper/tp-life/article2204749.ece



Well maybe you should - as if you left a five year old in a garden with Fruits, Tender Greens and Rabbit, I know which one my money is on them biting into first.

I don't have any 'beliefs'. My opinions are based on hard science.

Are you an actual fruitarian?

smellslikeshoes

Dravokivich wrote: »

That doesn't mean the meat eater is anti veg. Just that veg is part of their diet as much as meat. With it being seen as the default diet here, it can be odd to see someone eat differently.

What I meant by some vegetarians having an anti meat agenda, is that they go all out to condemn those who eat meat. You'll see the attitude you referred to as a reaction to that.

I know a few vegetarians and for them it's a matter of preference. They just don't like meat.

I don't think you realise how personal some meat eaters can make vegetarian bashing, it's easily the equivalent of even the most militant vegetarian. The difference is there is much much more meat eaters so we deal with these people every day. How often do you see a vegetarian bashing meat eaters, wouldn't be a daily occurrence because there just isn't that many vegetarians.
Honestly it's militant veggies that are a reaction of meat eaters constantly bashing veggies not the other way round.
Even in this thread we have people coming out with the quote below, the fact is we deal with this stuff every day and usually much worse.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I've never been a vegetarian and I never will be. I know far too much about nutritional science and evolutionary biology to ever think that it's either good or natural. I also don't have the moral compass of a five year old

Dravokivich

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

I don't think you realise how personal some meat eaters can make vegetarian bashing, it's easily the equivalent of even the most militant vegetarian. The difference is there is much much more meat eaters so we deal with these people every day. How often do you see a vegetarian bashing meat eaters, wouldn't be a daily occurrence because there just isn't that many vegetarians.
Honestly it's militant veggies that are a reaction of meat eaters constantly bashing veggies not the other way round.
Even in this thread we have people coming out with the quote below, the fact is we deal with this stuff every day and usually much worse.

Yes, but then again this is a thread that was started off on the basis of a video that is meant to guilt those who eat meat.

TheFruitarian

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Are you an actual fruitarian?

Yes, an actual real live one.

You ask in the tone of someone chancing upon a leprechaun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StlfrIBu8Xc

Eriopis

I'm vegan since early this year - I've been building up to it for years though: I've just always really enjoyed my veg much more than than meat! Even as a child, everyone else was looking forward to the turkey, and I couldn't wait to get my hands on the brussels sprouts
Maybe I've weird taste buds/ odd sense of smell but I can't stand the smell of meat, especially red meat, it just smells decayed to me, as does chicken, don't even mention pork!

I'm not militant though and don't go around pushing my views or tastes on others. No point really, I'm a really good cook so will just show people how good vegan food tastes, but if they still want meat that's not for me to decide.

Just to clarify a few points others have made - you don't need to "make sure you get enough protein" when you don't eat meat - there's protein in practically everything. Vegans usually get it from beans, lentils etc. (dal ftw!), it's not something we have to watch out for really!
The only thing a vegan diet doesn't readily have is vitamin B12, and this is easily supplemented.

Someone else also mentioned the fact that crop farming also kills wild animals and uses resources (water, land) etc. True, but people who use this argument always forget that crop farming is necessary for meat production as well! Silage/hay harvesting, grain and maize for animal foods, which get fed to the animals, which then get eaten, take up far more resources (and ultimately kill more animals) than those eating a plant-based diet who don't feed other animals to feed themselves. There are tonnes of statistics out there for those who care to look.

I do feel much healthier since switching to a vegan diet too - I've lost a crazy amount of weight eating whatever I want as long as its vegan, blood pressure and cholesterol are way down, my tummy generally feels a lot happier, and I never get that "uff, ate too much" feeling, no matter how much I eat. I definitely won't be going back!

Feathers

Eriopis wrote: »

Just to clarify a few points others have made - you don't need to "make sure you get enough protein" when you don't eat meat - there's protein in practically everything. Vegans usually get it from beans, lentils etc. (dal ftw!), it's not something we have to watch out for really!
The only thing a vegan diet doesn't readily have is vitamin B12, and this is easily supplemented.

Don't dispute that you can easily get enough protein if you know what to cook & how to cook it, but to be fair a Western diet doesn't really accommodate you too much to start with.

For those who can't cook or just know what they were thought at home, it can be harder to find stuff to make initially if they go the veggie route - I think it's these people that do need to watch what they eat & make sure it's balanced.

Eriopis

Feathers wrote: »

Don't dispute that you can easily get enough protein if you know what to cook & how to cook it, but to be fair a Western diet doesn't really accommodate you too much to start with.

For those who can't cook or just know what they were thought at home, it can be harder to find stuff to make initially if they go the veggie route - I think it's these people that do need to watch what they eat & make sure it's balanced.

The Western Diet places way too much emphasis on protein anyway. Seriously, if you just ate potatoes and veggies/plant foods for a month you'd be absolutely fine! There's tonnes of protein in nuts/ seeds and grains like quinoa as well as the aforementioned legumes (peanut butter is a good source for example). I've never heard of a vegan with a protein deficiency to be honest.
I think the mistake many new vegetarians make when switching is to go for lots of carbs and cheese as an alternative, (so pasta, pizza for example), and they, like many meat eaters, simply aren't getting enough veggies, and eating too much cholesterol and fat. You could still follow the "meat two veg" pattern fairly healthily if you just switch out beans for the meat, it doesn't necessarily involve learning to cook exotic food.

smellslikeshoes

Dravokivich wrote: »

Yes, but then again this is a thread that was started off on the basis of a video that is meant to guilt those who eat meat.

I won't argue there but I have to concede even though it was started in a silly way there has been more reasoned discussion on this thread than any other Veggie thread I've seen in AH. Just goes to show how bad they usually end up here, usually they aren't started by us mind :P

Red Pepper

I have almost become a pescatarian. I absolutely love fish but I will have vegetarian meals too. Hardly ever eat red meat now but the odd steak is nice.

Tar.Aldarion

Zillah wrote: »

I've been vegetarian for about two months now. I had been building up to it for about a year I would say. Back then I decided that I agreed with them in principle but didn't have the discipline to actually do it. I did, however, find myself eating less and less meat, and one day I realised it had been a full week since I had eaten any, so I said "Y'know what, I'm gonna do it". It's been really really easy. Only two things have been a problem so far; a very small percentage of restaurants have bad vegetarian options, and people seem to think choosing not to eat animals should make me a target for ridicule. Cost has not been a factor, nor has variety, health or meal-satisfaction...although I did have one hiccup where I ate a chicken nugget at a party and only two hours later suddenly went "...wait a second...whoops".

I'm getting really sick of people asking me why I am a vegetarian, and then rolling their eyes, making faces or getting angry and defensive when I answer them. If you're not genuinely curious then just fuck off please. I've had people start making faces literally before I have finished a sentence along the lines of "I don't think animals should have to suffer needlessly..."

I could write an essay on my reasons, but I think this would be the summary: That is a really horrible way to treat creatures that can experience pain and fear, and I think we should be better than that. In a modern society we are perfectly capable of living a healthy, happy life without eating animals - they die not for our survival but for our pleasure, and it is petty and cruel to kill them to take their flesh.

On the weekend I had a distant relative tell me that she felt animals were put here for us by God...she also didn't believe in evolution, so I'm not sure it is worth having a discussion there.

I still remember you PMing me saying my arguments for vegetarianism in some thread seemed quite logical and that you'd think about giving it a try...sniff. :pac:

Dunno why people are talking about protein, it's a non issue for vegetarians, bit more thought needs to be put in for being vegan however, but even then it's not protein you have to worry about.

ScumLord

Once the zombie apocalypse happens and vegetarians can't ship their meals in from across the globe we'll all be meat eaters again.

Eriopis

ScumLord wrote: »

Once the zombie apocalypse happens and vegetarians can't ship their meals in from across the globe we'll all be meat eaters again.

Nah, we'll be grand! "Grrraaaiiiinnnssss, grrraaaainnnnss!"

alphabeat

YAAAAWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

another veggie / meat thread

theres a suprise .

ScumLord

Eriopis wrote: »

Nah, we'll be grand! "Grrraaaiiiinnnssss, grrraaaainnnnss!"

Grains and fruit are seasonal so unfortunately you're going to have to turn to meat at some stage, especially if you become a zombie.

kowloon

Would a vegetarian zombie turn to human flesh? Or would they, like the shopping zombies in Dawn of the Dead, retain old habits?

Millicent

This thread has really got me thinking. I consider becoming a vegetarian at least twice a year and have done for years but it's not to do with the morals of eating dead animals, it's to do with the manner in which they're kept and killed.

I do what I can in that regard, eating free range where possible, but buying any meat that is not free range chicken gives me cause for concern. Currently, there seems to be no way in Ireland to guarantee the provenance of your meat. While in the UK, people like Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall have taken up the mantle of responsible farming, there hasn't been the trickle-down effect to Ireland that I would have expected.

I guess what I'm asking, in a roundabout way, is: is there any way to guarantee an animal you are eating has lived and died in the most humane way? I am not morally opposed to eating meat but until I can ensure that the animals I'm eating are not suffering needlessly, the question will continue to trouble me while I continue to be a meat-eater.

I would rather eat hunted meat than farmed meat for this reason but I don't think that's a viable alternative.

Anyone any advice or pointers?

ScumLord

Millicent wrote: »

I guess what I'm asking, in a roundabout way, is: is there any way to guarantee an animal you are eating has lived and died in the most humane way?

Irish beef is as free range as you can get, same goes for mutton and lamb. You don't need to feel any guilt eating mutton either, I got attacked by a sheep in Connemara, they're all assholes that deserve to die and be eaten. Cattle don't mind being eaten, I tell them I'm going to eat them on a regular basis and they seem fine with it.