Vegetarianism - would you try it?

Eriopis

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

People with beards are more likely to die of a heart attack, that doesn't mean beards cause heart attacks or that removing your beard reduces your likelihood of a heart attack.

then.. link bombing

I did have a look at those and most of them don't support what you're claiming, in fact you're getting into serious beard territory there yourself.

ScumLord

It may not be as straightforward as making a choice, if our bodies developed to have a particular diet there may be health risks associated with whether we like it or not.

Why eating like we did 20,000 years ago may be the way of the future

The human genome has remained relatively unchanged for the past 120,000 years - a lengthy expanse of span of time during which our Paleolithic hunter-gatherer ancestors primarily ate meat, with some vegetables, fruits, nuts, and seeds. Evolution ensured that humans were well adapted to eat those types of foods, and their bodies were happy to receive them.

It's only been in the last 10,000 years, however, that humans have started to engage in agriculture, a technological and sociological development that has resulted in increased reliance on grains, legumes, and dairy — what are now Neolithic staples. Trouble is, our bodies haven't the foggiest idea what to do with these foods, and in some cases, they're actually toxic.

Shockingly, it's been over these past 10,000 years that humans have become significantly shorter, fatter, less muscular, and more prone to disease. It's this realization that has led some thinkers like Jared Diamond to proclaim that agriculture was the worst mistake our species has ever made. While it's been great for society as a whole, from a health perspective it's proven catastrophic for individuals.

Eriopis

ScumLord wrote: »

It may not be as straightforward as making a choice, if our bodies developed to have a particular diet there may be health risks associated with whether we like it or not.

Why eating like we did 20,000 years ago may be the way of the future

meh.. height isn't necessarily an indicator for health (I'm very tall myself, so not good news for me unfortunately) - check out this fella:

favoring increased growth is a false value because bigger bodies are tied to poorer health and reduced longevity.

For more information: http://www.humanbodysize.com

Tom Samaras

Our growth today is due to excess nutrition not better nutrition. The emphasis on animal protein and processed foods promote growth but this food system is considered a devastating by the global obesity expert, Barry Popkin.

Shenshen

ScumLord wrote: »

It may not be as straightforward as making a choice, if our bodies developed to have a particular diet there may be health risks associated with whether we like it or not.

Why eating like we did 20,000 years ago may be the way of the future

We've become shorter? That's interesting, seeing as in the last 100 or so years we've grown significantly taller on average.

Jared Diamond should make up his mind... in Guns, Germs and Steel he claims that agriculture and the consequent close-quarter living with animals was what immunised Westerners so that when Amercia was discovered, the germs brought along with the Europeans wiped out massive parts of the population there. Without agriculture, we would be more vulnerable to diseases.

And in fairness, without agriculture, we would not have developed the society we currently live on. It's all essentially based on a massive over-production of food, so that only a few people concentrate on the food production while the rest of us can specialise in other areas.

--Kaiser--

Shenshen wrote: »

We've become shorter? That's interesting, seeing as in the last 100 or so years we've grown significantly taller on average.

Jared Diamond should make up his mind... in Guns, Germs and Steel he claims that agriculture and the consequent close-quarter living with animals was what immunised Westerners so that when Amercia was discovered, the germs brought along with the Europeans wiped out massive parts of the population there. Without agriculture, we would be more vulnerable to diseases.

And in fairness, without agriculture, we would not have developed the society we currently live on. It's all essentially based on a massive over-production of food, so that only a few people concentrate on the food production while the rest of us can specialise in other areas.

It's only now that humans have reached the average height of what paleolithic humans were. From 10,000 years ago, when we started farming and eating grains, we grew shorter and weaker with less dense bones and far more dental caries. An anthropologist can tell from bones whether the individual was a hunter-gatherer or an agrarian

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/

crazy cabbage

ScumLord wrote: »

It may not be as straightforward as making a choice, if our bodies developed to have a particular diet there may be health risks associated with whether we like it or not.

Why eating like we did 20,000 years ago may be the way of the future

I am not denying what posted. Grains have only been introduced into our diet in the last cuple of thousand years. Our bodys may not be fully able to deal with them.

However i dont see how it is revelent to becoming a vegetarian. I eat no more grains now than when i was a 'meat eater'. I used to have a ham sammichs during the day. Now i have a vegy based sammichs. I am not increasing my grain intake.

Just becouse you arn't eating meat doesn't mean that you are eating more grains. It just means that you are eating more veg.

Think of whatever meal you ate last. Swap the meat for a lode of veg. How does that equal more grains
It is something to be looked into but isn't revelent here

Esoteric_

I was veggie for 4 or 5 years.

My doctor told me to start eating meat again though, when I was 17, because I am allergic to milk so was eating an almost vegan diet, but also hated vegetables at the time, so was pretty much surviving on carbs and became malnourished to the point where my hair was falling out and I developed terrible acne.

Now, I love vegetables and all that sort of good stuff. I'd happily go back to being veggie, as I don't eat much meat anyway. I only eat meat about twice a week as it is. I'd miss bacon though.

Lawrence1895

No. I love my meat

Jimoslimos

crazy cabbage wrote: »

I eat no more grains now than when i was a 'meat eater'. I used to have a ham sammichs during the day. Now i have a vegy based sammichs. I am not increasing my grain intake.

Just becouse you arn't eating meat doesn't mean that you are eating more grains. It just means that you are eating more veg.

Think of whatever meal you ate last. Swap the meat for a lode of veg. How does that equal more grains
It is something to be looked into but isn't revelent here

Because like it or not, vegetarianism isn't defined by by how much fruit or veg you eat, but rather the lack of meat in your diet.

I could eat twice the amount of veg as you do and meat once a week and still not be considered vegetarian compared to someone with a grain-based diet and few veg.

Unpopular opinion: Other than taste preferences and finance, I regard most of the moral/environmental/religious reasons for strict vegetarianism to be largely bullsh1t.

ScumLord

crazy cabbage wrote: »

However i dont see how it is revelent to becoming a vegetarian. I eat no more grains now than when i was a 'meat eater'.

Grains have been brought up as a healthy supplement to meat and specifically as an alternative to all the imported food vegetarians need.

King Of Wishful Thinking

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I've slept with vegetarians yeah - no different from other women really.

Did you go down to chow town with any of 'em?

As, in my experience (all be it somewhat limited) Vegan punanai tastes soo much better than carnivore punanai (human variety at least).

crazy cabbage

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Because like it or not, vegetarianism isn't defined by by how much fruit or veg you eat, but rather the lack of meat in your diet.

I know. My point was that the grain debate is pointless here. That is what people were discussing which isn't really revelent in my opinion

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I could eat twice the amount of veg as you do and meat once a week and still not be considered vegetarian compared to someone with a grain-based diet and few veg.

Again i agree. A largly grain based diet isn't healty.

ScumLord wrote: »

Grains have been brought up as a healthy supplement to meat and specifically as an alternative to all the imported food vegetarians need.

I have never heard of grains being used as a healthy supplement to meat and i think that most vegatariens know enough about food to realise that that isn't the case. This is a generalisation i know but in my experience vegaterians know more about there food than the average person.

In fairness it isn't like we import loads of food for just vegatariens. Meat eaters like there fruit and veg too :eek:

G.muny

Been a vegetarain for 14 years, am perfectly healthy and of course my diet keeps me slim without much effort which is also nice

I am a veggie because I can't justify killing something without necessity and in places like Europe and America its not necessary. There are easy alternatives you can eat and still live a healthy life without having to kill something in the process. I think mind you if you live somewhere that food is scarce and it is necessary by all means I understand that but not here where its just because people like how it tastes.

BUT...thats just how I feel. I can't justify it to myself so I don't do it. But if you can then by all means keep eatting your Big Macs....and I have no problem with you or your choice to do that.

I don't like the preachy types. Your diet is your choice, as are your beliefs. Vegetarians that try and push their views onto other people or belittle others for eatting meat are in my opinon as bad as meat eatters that try and tell me I should eat meat.

Greentopia

Not a vegetarian but I rarely eat red meat-I'll have a bacon and black pudding fry maybe once every 6 or 8 weeks. I very rarely have steak or lamb, once or twice a year perhaps. Organic mince for bolognese or Mexican chilli once a month or so.

I'll eat vegetarian maybe half the time (love my legumes, nuts and veg!) and the rest fish, free range chicken, or turkey based meals.

I wish there was more free range pork available here at affordable prices. Would love to rear my own free range rare breed pigs some day. Chickens too.

Even though I eat meat animal welfare is important to me and I just wish I was in a position to be able to afford to be able to rear all my own free range organic meat. For now I do the best I can.

ScumLord

Greentopia wrote: »

I wish there was more free range pork available here at affordable prices. Would love to rear my own free range rare breed pigs some day. Chickens too.

I don't think you want to go raising pigs for slaughter. You'll get attached to them, maybe not the sows they're horrible and dangerous apparently but the boars are like shy dogs (in my experience with one boar) and it's easy to get attached to them. You could easily end up with a load of giant pigs (they're huge) running around your house as pets.

I think better conditions for pigs should be a must, I think they deserve a standard of living that's quite high. Once the pig has a good life and humane slaughter happens I have no problem with eating it though. I think domestic animals can get a good deal as far as the hand all living things get dealt.

Domestic animals get to live a sheltered life where the dangers of life in the wild are for the most part removed, they get free medical care, they get feed and rarely ever feel the kind of hunger they'd more than likely face at some stage in their life in the wild. They get a quick death, compared to the horrible deaths they can have in the wild it's a good deal for a animal that's not going to know there's any other way of living and wouldn't be able to survive in the wild even if it did know.

GisforGrenade

Since I know where all my meat comes from I have absolutely no qualms eating meat. Every bit of meat I am going to eat this christmas my father reared and had a hand in killing. If you say soya is a suitable alternative to meat, think were that soya came from, its very likely it came from the fields that once used to be rainforest. There is feck all soya grown in Ireland, think of the air miles spend getting that foreign soya here.

Benny_Cake

GisforGrenade wrote: »

Since I know where all my meat comes from I have absolutely no qualms eating meat. Every bit of meat I am going to eat this christmas my father reared and had a hand in killing. If you say soya is a suitable alternative to meat, think were that soya came from, its very likely it came from the fields that once used to be rainforest. There is feck all soya grown in Ireland, think of the air miles spend getting that foreign soya here.

The vast majority of that soya is being used as animal (largely cattle) feed. Obviously that isn't such a huge concern here in Ireland as our cattle are largely grass fed.

I'm a vegetarian myself but I've a lot of respect for those who rear their own meat or choose to buy ethically produced meat.

ScumLord

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'm a vegetarian myself but I've a lot of respect for those who rear their own meat or choose to buy ethically produced meat.

The one major benefit is it's tastier meat.

sky2424

Not a vegetarian but spent a few days on a alternative/hippish yoga retreat place in Asia and now I completely understand why people might choose to be vegetarian. Before this, I never really understood it and thought a meal wasnt complete without some form of meat. Since being back in Ireland, its SOOO hard to avoid meat (Im talking family/friends dinners).

And so whilst im not vegetarian, I am actively trying to reduce my meat intake for health reasons.

Odysseus

I went off all meat for just under 3 years a long time ago. I went back on meat after the following episode, I was on a bus home one night there was only me and two young lads on the bus. My stomach was bubbling a bit and I let this silent one off. Fcuk me it was really the foulest thing I had encountered.

I'm sitting there coming to terms with the odour; the two lads behind me start accusing each other of the foul act. I looked behind with a look of disgust, which they believed. They actually started boxing the head off each other, shout "it wasn't me you dirty bastard" it was gas [literally]

However, after that I went with the idea that my stomach wasn't suited to veggie life, but every time I think about those two lads thumping each other.

Greentopia

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think you want to go raising pigs for slaughter. You'll get attached to them,

That's what I fear I'm a bit of a softie when it comes to animals. I know it'll be tough for me to kill my own chickens let alone pigs, and pigs are very intelligent (the same level as a 3 yr. old from what I've read) curious and social animals so yes I think it'd be really hard to send them to be humanely slaughter but I'm glad in a way that I'll be faced with having to make that choice, most people never are. It's all too easy to buy bacon (or any meat) wrapped in plastic from a supermarket or butchers. It disconnects us from the reality of sentient animals having to be killed in order for us to have that meat on our plate.

I want to see how I'll really feel when faced with seeing pigs I've reared and probably grown attached to having to be sent to the slaughter house when their time comes. The experience will mean I'll either stop eating meat or I'll learn to deal with it I guess.

ScumLord wrote: »

You could easily end up with a load of giant pigs (they're huge) running around your house as pets.

That's why I'd only get a couple to start

ScumLord wrote: »

I think better conditions for pigs should be a must, I think they deserve a standard of living that's quite high. Once the pig has a good life and humane slaughter happens I have no problem with eating it though.

That's the way I feel too. Unfortunately even though they may be humanely slaughtered for the most part in this country, I think the quality of life for pigs reared on intensive factory farms in concrete pens is poor and is unnatural for them. They should be out in woodlands and grassland-their natural habitat-rooting, foraging, nesting and rolling in mud in their social groups so they can display their natural and instinctive behaviour. With shelter and bedding provided too of course.

I understand this would mean higher cost meat but it would also mean higher quality meat. In the U.K. there are a lot of organic and free range pig farms but it's still a rarity here unfortunately.
We're crying out for jobs in this country so why don't more farmers and small holders get into this area?? there are a couple of free range and organic farms who sell direct to customers online or at farmers markets but the market is very under developed here.

Tar.Aldarion

Odysseus wrote: »

I went off all meat for just under 3 years a long time ago. I went back on meat after the following episode, I was on a bus home one night there was only me and two young lads on the bus. My stomach was bubbling a bit and I let this silent one off. Fcuk me it was really the foulest thing I had encountered.

I'm sitting there coming to terms with the odour; the two lads behind me start accusing each other of the foul act. I looked behind with a look of disgust, which they believed. They actually started boxing the head off each other, shout "it wasn't me you dirty bastard" it was gas [literally]

However, after that I went with the idea that my stomach wasn't suited to veggie life, but every time I think about those two lads thumping each other.

ಠ_ಠ

bbam

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think you want to go raising pigs for slaughter. You'll get attached to them, maybe not the sows they're horrible and dangerous apparently but the boars are like shy dogs (in my experience with one boar) and it's easy to get attached to them. You could easily end up with a load of giant pigs (they're huge) running around your house as pets.

I think better conditions for pigs should be a must, I think they deserve a standard of living that's quite high. Once the pig has a good life and humane slaughter happens I have no problem with eating it though. I think domestic animals can get a good deal as far as the hand all living things get dealt.

Domestic animals get to live a sheltered life where the dangers of life in the wild are for the most part removed, they get free medical care, they get feed and rarely ever feel the kind of hunger they'd more than likely face at some stage in their life in the wild. They get a quick death, compared to the horrible deaths they can have in the wild it's a good deal for a animal that's not going to know there's any other way of living and wouldn't be able to survive in the wild even if it did know.

We rear pigs for our own table..
Getting attached to them isn't so much of a problem as you think. We name them and feed them, the kids enjoy feeding them... but we all know why they are here..
They are free-range, out rooting in the ground and access to a nice bedded house so they get the best of both worlds..
They're more enjoyable than cattle in many ways, far better characters and much healthier.
We keep chickens and cattle too...

bluecode

Absolutely no problem eating vegetarian food. It's just food. Will even buy Linda McCartney stuff and Quorn.

But I do really think vegetarinism is a bit Darwinium. I cannot imagine being that fussy.

Really it's anti evoloutinary. Fussy eating is not conducive to survival.

Yeah sure it's a bad thing for the fluffy animals that get eaten. But in the real world they wouldn't exist at all if we didn't eat them.

Greentopia

bluecode wrote: »

But I do really think vegetarinism is a bit Darwinium. I cannot imagine being that fussy.

Really it's anti evoloutinary. Fussy eating is not conducive to survival.

It doesn't have to be fussy. I have a few vegetarian dishes I make that are as easy as meat dishes to cook. And lots of meat dishes can be very "fussy" and complicated to make.

bluecode wrote: »

Yeah sure it's a bad thing for the fluffy animals that get eaten. But in the real world they wouldn't exist at all if we didn't eat them.

Lots of animals are kept for their milk or their fur/hair too you know!-goats, sheep, rabbits, alpacas...and cattle are not just for eating, we get milk, cheese, butter and so on from them. Ok domesticated pigs might die out but there are lots of wild pig breeds.

Most domesticated livestock would still survive (albeit in far fewer numbers) if we all became vegetarian.

Spread

I eat vegetarian pizzas and vegetarian curries occasionally. Yummy!

Shenshen

bluecode wrote: »

Absolutely no problem eating vegetarian food. It's just food. Will even buy Linda McCartney stuff and Quorn.

But I do really think vegetarinism is a bit Darwinium. I cannot imagine being that fussy.

Really it's anti evoloutinary. Fussy eating is not conducive to survival.

Yeah sure it's a bad thing for the fluffy animals that get eaten. But in the real world they wouldn't exist at all if we didn't eat them.

I honestly don't think eating for survival is an issue in the developed world any more.

Yes, fussy eating is dangerous when you never know where your next meal might be coming from, but considering the obesity epidemic we're facing here and now, I suggest that being picky in this particular situation will actually improve your evolutionary chances of survival and reproduction.

And while personally I'm still clearly obese, I've lost some 20 kilos since changing to a fully vegetarian diet. My cholesterol has gone down significantly, my blood pressure has gone down, my skin has improved (used to get a bit spotty before), and I'm getting fewer migraines.
As I said before, it's not for everyone, but I see no reason for me to go back to eating meat.

King Of Wishful Thinking

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I've never been a vegetarian and I never will be. I know far too much about nutritional science and evolutionary biology to ever think that it's either good or natural.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

My opinions are based on hard science.

You throw the word science around a lot, I'm guessing in the hope that people will give your posts more weight that they deserve.

The hard science on Paleolithic diet is far from complete and sketchy at best. What was presumed to be facts by scientists and anthropologists for many many years, is now heavily questioned and much now dismissed as being incorrect. For example, the ways in which they had tested for proteins is now far different, as quite often when found, no effort was made to try and differentiate between animal proteins and vegetable proteins:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12071424

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/neanderthals-vegetable-diet_n_1685882.html

ScumLord

Greentopia wrote: »

I understand this would mean higher cost meat but it would also mean higher quality meat. In the U.K. there are a lot of organic and free range pig farms but it's still a rarity here unfortunately.

I don't mind paying a bit extra for nicer meat, I wish I had more options for organic meat. When it comes to chicken all I can do is buy a whole chicken, organic pork is non existent in my locals.

I think Ireland should go for quality on our food products. We've been pushing the quality brand on packaging for years but not really putting the efforting into the actual product.

saysaywatson

Shocking video... I'm not against eating meat, I think it's natural and happens in the wild - my issue is with the suffering. I would definitely pay over the odds for meat if I knew the animal had been treated ethically

Scanlas The 2nd

King Of Wishful Thinking wrote: »

You throw the word science around a lot, I'm guessing in the hope that people will give your posts more weight that they deserve.

The hard science on Paleolithic diet is far from complete and sketchy at best. What was presumed to be facts by scientists and anthropologists for many many years, is now heavily questioned and much now dismissed as being incorrect. For example, the ways in which they had tested for proteins is now far different, as quite often when found, no effort was made to try and differentiate between animal proteins and vegetable proteins:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12071424

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/neanderthals-vegetable-diet_n_1685882.html

Neither of those articles contradicts what is thought of as a palaeolithic diet. The palaeolithic diet is one which contains meat AND vegetables. Those articles do not state hunter gatherers didn't eat meat.

King Of Wishful Thinking

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Neither of those articles contradicts what is thought of as a palaeolithic diet. The palaeolithic diet is one which contains meat AND vegetables. Those articles do not state hunter gatherers didn't eat meat.

I am not suggesting that they do. They are posted to show that someone merely saying that they have seen the science here means very very little, due to how frequent the "science" on paleolithic diet changes. The jury on whether or not Man is a natural omnivore or herbivore is still well and truly out.

My opinion, based on what I've read, is that humans were / are predominately herbivorous but only when the diet consisted of raw fruits, nuts and vegetables. Cooking food is what really changed it all as then our digestive systems changed, as we lost the ability to digest cellulose ((humans lost their intestinal cilia when they started cooking with fire) and so ultimately became devoid of B12 rich bacteria in our guts.

I think all humans would benefit from avoiding grains, but switching to a 100% herbivore diet is not suddenly going to have us digesting cellulose or becoming abundant with B12 rich bacteria and so for that reason, I do eat some organic chicken, grass fed beef and wild fish occasionally, but never eat grains, starchy tubers or potatoes.

In saying all that, many anecdotes from vegans, particularly those eating a raw vegan diet, are quite impressive. Was recently watching many videos from Woodstock Fruit Festival which happens annually and it would appear that raw veganism has never been as popular. Mainly down to a guy called Dr Doug Graham who has been eating a raw vegan diet for over 30 years or mor. He wrote a book called 80/10/10, here's a short interview with him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBvdpC9iBN0

bbam

saysaywatson wrote: »

Shocking video... I'm not against eating meat, I think it's natural and happens in the wild - my issue is with the suffering. I would definitely pay over the odds for meat if I knew the animal had been treated ethically

But suffering in the Irish meat system is near not heard of. Animals are treated to the best conditions available, best feeds available and their health and welfare is a priority to all involved. We have a good system, it would be nice to see more free range pork available commercially, and there has been a definite move to free range chicken and eggs.. Beef and milk are of course for the most part free range in Ireland with the goal being on minimal housing periods due to the cost and health implications.

If people are genuinely worried, near every town has a butcher who brings in local grown beef and slaughters it on site, it doesn't get much more humane and indeed local than that.. Ask around and ask him how its run, reassure yourself.

I cant run the video, one of the perks of living in the country is poor broadband

Sirsok

I was a veggie for three years......did it as a bet though to prove to someone i could do it....didnt win anything but had a deadly corned beef sandwhich on my 3year anniversary to end it

planetX

bbam wrote: »

But suffering in the Irish meat system is near not heard of. Animals are treated to the best conditions available, best feeds available and their health and welfare is a priority to all involved. We have a good system, it would be nice to see more free range pork available commercially, and there has been a definite move to free range chicken and eggs.. Beef and milk are of course for the most part free range in Ireland with the goal being on minimal housing periods due to the cost and health implications.

If people are genuinely worried, near every town has a butcher who brings in local grown beef and slaughters it on site, it doesn't get much more humane and indeed local than that.. Ask around and ask him how its run, reassure yourself.

I cant run the video, one of the perks of living in the country is poor broadband

live exports are increasing, don't kid yourself that welfare is high on the agenda for irish farmers.

Benny_Cake

bbam wrote: »

But suffering in the Irish meat system is near not heard of. Animals are treated to the best conditions available, best feeds available and their health and welfare is a priority to all involved. We have a good system, it would be nice to see more free range pork available commercially, and there has been a definite move to free range chicken and eggs.. Beef and milk are of course for the most part free range in Ireland with the goal being on minimal housing periods due to the cost and health implications.

The conditions for cattle in Ireland are probably a lot better than average internationally. It's quite a different story for poultry and pigs however - yes, free range meat is available to a limited extent, but the cheaper chicken and pork, which constitutes the bulk of sales, is certainly a long way from free range and the animals are kept in conditions of outright cruelty.

That said, if someone is prepared to spend the extra money purchasing ethically produced chicken and pork, that is no bad thing.

bbam

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The conditions for cattle in Ireland are probably a lot better than average internationally. It's quite a different story for poultry and pigs however - yes, free range meat is available to a limited extent, but the cheaper chicken and pork, which constitutes the bulk of sales, is certainly a long way from free range and the animals are kept in conditions of outright cruelty.

That said, if someone is prepared to spend the extra money purchasing ethically produced chicken and pork, that is no bad thing.

The amount of free range chicken has increased dramatically in the last five years.. And more needs to go that way..

Pork is a different story altogether and I couldn't locate one commercial free range pork farm .
However the current intensive rearing of pork is about to end as the costs have risen astronomically in the last two years... Maybe free range will become the more chosen method going forward.. fingers crossed

as a farmer I hate to go into the intensive battery houses or piggeries.. the sooner they change the better. Thats why we have our own pigs and chickens

Jimoslimos

King Of Wishful Thinking wrote: »

In saying all that, many anecdotes from vegans, particularly those eating a raw vegan diet, are quite impressive. Was recently watching many videos from Woodstock Fruit Festival which happens annually and it would appear that raw veganism has never been as popular. Mainly down to a guy called Dr Doug Graham who has been eating a raw vegan diet for over 30 years or mor. He wrote a book called 80/10/10, here's a short interview with him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aBvdpC9iBN0

The problem with ancedotes is you tend to only hear the good news stories, the people who are happy, as well as those with an agenda (something to sell). With everyone else there's always a excuse it's not working -
vegetarian: try harder, go vegan
vegan: next step raw
raw vegan diet not doing anything? by this stage you're probably to weak to get out of bed, let alone make a youtube vid.

As for Doug Graham, he has a fcuking chiropractic degree. Doctor indeed:mad:

ScumLord

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The conditions for cattle in Ireland are probably a lot better than average internationally. It's quite a different story for poultry and pigs however - yes, free range meat is available to a limited extent, but the cheaper chicken and pork, which constitutes the bulk of sales, is certainly a long way from free range and the animals are kept in conditions of outright cruelty.

Even so called free range chicken isn't all that free range, the standards are fairly low and very little is done to achieve the free range status. It's like being upgraded from daily torture to just a miserable existence.

I've heard that as long as the chickens can step foot outside and see the sun it's basically free range, for the most part they just put in less chickens and throw in the most basic distractions. Organic often only relates to the feed they're given.

I don't think farmers are the problem though, international supermarket chains are driving conditions threw the floor. The groups that buy the products like too big of a cut too.

I think laws have to be brought in, including incentives to buy locally produced organic/free range food. Reorganise the system so farmers can make a good living producing ethically reared produce. I'm sure that can be done at a reasonable price without massive subsidies but it would need a clean sweep of corruption in places like co-ops.

Tar.Aldarion

Not really gonna happen though is it when people are just happy to keep eating it? And wanting low prices? Even people that say they eat organic, they don't ever say no to meat out, fast food, meat in products that isn't organic and so on. People want to make money and people want cheap things, not enough care at all. There is no way 99% of people that are unhappy with pork conditions ever say no to it? I have often heard it from people as they eat it.

ScumLord

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Not really gonna happen though is it when people are just happy to keep eating it? And wanting low prices? Even people that say they eat organic, they don't ever say no to meat out, fast food, meat in products that isn't organic and so on.

It works for beef with McDonalds getting most of their meat from Ireland.

People are just so disconnected from how their food is produced. I think that's true for a lot of things. People don't know how their food is produced, how their roads are made, how their government works, how their products are made. We're too consumed with our modern lifestyles to give it all a second thought so corporations can run riot.

blue note

I think this thread should be in the LGBT section.

Eriopis

blue note wrote: »

I think this thread should be in the LGBT section.

Why? Does having any form of empathy automatically make a person gay? Good grief. That's quite insulting to heteros actually. Anyway, trust me, it's not the case - I'd quite happily punch a bigot in the nuts for example

Eriopis

..referring of course to ethically sourced almonds,.. or somesuch

Irishchick

No. It's a farce and its not healthy.

You wont eat a cow but you''ll drink its milk. What do you think happens to her when she can't provide that milk? She goes to the factory. Your milk drinking will eventually cause her death.

Eggs: You eat a chickens eggs. What do you think happens to her when she stops laying? She gets slaughtered for the food industry. Eating eggs will eventually lead to her meat being consumed.

Your veg is fertilised with animal by products.

your leather came from that dead cow who's milk you drank.

Almost every cosmetic and cleaner in your house was at some point in time, tested on animals to ensure it was safe for human use.

A few books to consider reading:

"the vegetarian myth" - suggests the constant corn growing with no rotation is destroying top soil and will eventually leave the land Barron. Natural Habitats are destroyed to create land that usually used to grow vegetables, rarely is it used for grazing animals.

"The meat fix" How a years of eating "healthy" almost killed me"

The healthiest diet is the varied diet that consists of Fruit, veg and animal protein.

As for welfare, our meat animals here are on the whole treated well. Standard for chickens are improving with battery cages banned since January. Farrowing crates are going to be banned for long period in the pig industry. A lot of pig farmers are giving their pigs more space now with opportunities for foraging and play.

Im a vet nurse and Ive seen how much cattle farmers care about their animals. I once saw a farmer break down in tears when his bull died. The thing was practically a pet!!

The best way to improve welfare standards it to choose brands that actively continue to make living better for their food animals. Not eating meat will not change the meat industry at all.

ThinlyVeiled

Irishchick wrote: »

No. It's a farce and its not healthy.

Millions of healthy vegetarians worldwide show us different. Sure, there are some very unhealthy ones, just as there many meat eaters out there who are also quite unhealthy.

Some very inspiring posts on the thread and also throughout the internet for going Vegetarian, something which I have been hmm'ing and hah'ing about for years now.

Seen Tonya Kay on TV there recently and I found her to so full of emery and vitality and passion also when discussing veganism:

http://www.tonyakay.com/

Irishchick

Vegan-ism is very unhealthy. Most vegans suffer from hypocobalaminemia/pernicious anemia. they try to get B12 from other sources such as seaweed or supplementation but it is no where near as biologically available to the body.

Leading vegan researchers have even confirmed that there is no source of naturally occurring B12 in vegetable matter that will satisfy the minimum requirements of the human body.

This can lead to further autoimmune diseases.

ScumLord

Irishchick wrote: »

You wont eat a cow but you''ll drink its milk. What do you think happens to her when she can't provide that milk? She goes to the factory. Your milk drinking will eventually cause her death.

Meat and dairy cattle are completely different beasts. A cow breed for milking won't end up being consumed by humans from what I know. They may end up in other types of factories.

I think that's the case across the board, they have particular breeds for particular tasks and they're not interchangeable.

Eriopis

Irishchick wrote: »

Vegan-ism is very unhealthy. Most vegans suffer from hypocobalaminemia/pernicious anemia. they try to get B12 from other sources such as seaweed or supplementation but it is no where near as biologically available to the body.

Leading vegan researchers have even confirmed that there is no source of naturally occurring B12 in vegetable matter that will satisfy the minimum requirements of the human body.

This can lead to further autoimmune diseases.

Vegan here. I just had my blood values checked last month, all parameters (including iron and B12) are absolutely normal. None of my vegan friends are falling down with autoimmune diseases either. If anything they're all remarkably fit, healthy and slim. If you're eating an unbalanced diet, you'll get deficiencies, regardless what kind of diet that is.

Eriopis

Irishchick wrote: »

No. It's a farce and its not healthy.

You wont eat a cow but you''ll drink its milk. What do you think happens to her when she can't provide that milk? She goes to the factory. Your milk drinking will eventually cause her death.

Eggs: You eat a chickens eggs. What do you think happens to her when she stops laying? She gets slaughtered for the food industry. Eating eggs will eventually lead to her meat being consumed.

Your veg is fertilised with animal by products.

your leather came from that dead cow who's milk you drank.

Almost every cosmetic and cleaner in your house was at some point in time, tested on animals to ensure it was safe for human use.

Unless you're vegan, in which case all of the above is void.

A few books to consider reading:

"the vegetarian myth" - suggests the constant corn growing with no rotation is destroying top soil and will eventually leave the land Barron. Natural Habitats are destroyed to create land that usually used to grow vegetables, rarely is it used for grazing animals.

Yeah, except that the vast majority of that corn is being grown to feed animals. Nice try. See here: http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/vegan/quickfacts.html