Vegetarianism - would you try it?

StankyStevie

cowzerp wrote: »

I did, but it's stupid and unnatural.

Unnatural? on the contrary Mr. Mod.

Millicent

Eriopis wrote: »

Vegan here. I just had my blood values checked last month, all parameters (including iron and B12) are absolutely normal. None of my vegan friends are falling down with autoimmune diseases either. If anything they're all remarkably fit, healthy and slim. If you're eating an unbalanced diet, you'll get deficiencies, regardless what kind of diet that is.

Can I ask are you male or female? I'm considering vegetarianism but I'm susceptible to anaemia and don't want to have to rely on supplements. Iron from non-heme sources doesn't seem to me to be anywhere near sufficient enough for the average woman. Any female vegetarians doing okay for iron without meat or supplements?

Jimoslimos

ScumLord wrote: »

Meat and dairy cattle are completely different beasts. A cow breed for milking won't end up being consumed by humans from what I know. They may end up in other types of factories.

I think that's the case across the board, they have particular breeds for particular tasks and they're not interchangeable.

AFAIK there are one or two breeds that can be used for both but even then they are farmed for one purpose, either dairy or meat but not both, i.e they don't get slaughtered for human consumption once milk production drops off.

IM0

only if it came with meat sauce

Princess Peach

If God hadn't intended for us to eat meat, he wouldn't have made it so delicious.

Irishchick

ScumLord wrote: »

Meat and dairy cattle are completely different beasts. A cow breed for milking won't end up being consumed by humans from what I know. They may end up in other types of factories.

I think that's the case across the board, they have particular breeds for particular tasks and they're not interchangeable.

Yes she will, depending on her age. A young dairy cow suffering multiple bouts of mastitis may be culled from the herd. It doesn't really matter any way she is still being killed.

There are several breeds which can be used for meat and milk.

Irishchick

Eriopis wrote: »

Unless you're vegan, in which case all of the above is void.


Yeah, except that the vast majority of that corn is being grown to feed animals. Nice try. See here: http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/vegan/quickfacts.html

That's a myth. Most of it is processed to high fructose corn syrup which ends up in almost every packaged food that you buy.

Our cows are fed on pasture and silage in the winter. It is completely unnatural for a cow to be fed corn.

Irishchick

Eriopis wrote: »

Vegan here. I just had my blood values checked last month, all parameters (including iron and B12) are absolutely normal. None of my vegan friends are falling down with autoimmune diseases either. If anything they're all remarkably fit, healthy and slim. If you're eating an unbalanced diet, you'll get deficiencies, regardless what kind of diet that is.

Tell me then, where are you getting your B12 from??

Eriopis

Irishchick wrote: »

That's a myth. Most of it is processed to high fructose corn syrup which ends up in almost every packaged food that you buy.

Our cows are fed on pasture and silage in the winter. It is completely unnatural for a cow to be fed corn.

No, it really isn't a myth. You said the majority of agricultural land is used for growing vegetables, this simply isn't true. The vast majority of agriculture is for livestock, and fuel.
I don't eat products with corn syrup in them (or palm oil).

As for B12, Marmite is a great source, as is seaweed as you previously mentioned, nutritional yeast is another.. a product you might not be familiar with but it's widely available, eco-friendly and very healthy, and has the added benefit of tasting like cheese (so great for making pasta sauce for example). It is also in most plant milks.

Irishchick

Eriopis wrote: »

I don't eat products with corn syrup in them (or palm oil).

Just because you don't eat it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Read a book called "Food Inc." It will open your eyes as to where corn really goes.

As was mentioned before those sources of B12 are not very biochemically available to the body.

Eriopis

Irishchick wrote: »

Just because you don't eat it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Read a book called "Food Inc." It will open your eyes as to where corn really goes.

As was mentioned before those sources of B12 are not very biochemically available to the body.

Yeah, meat exists too but I don't eat that either it's a personal, ethical choice.

--Pounds of grain needed to produce enough meat and other animal products to feed a person on a meat-based diet for a year: 2,000.

--Pounds of grain needed to feed a person for a year if the grain is eaten directly: 400.

--Percentage of:
Soybean crops grown to feed livestock in the US: 90%
Corn crops grown to feed livestock in the US: 80%
All grains grown to feed livestock in the US: 70%

--Livestock production accounts for 70% of all agriculture land and 30% of the surface of the planet. (UN Food and Agriculture Organization, Livestock’s Long Shadow, 2006)

As for B12, that must be why I'm so horribly deficient then.. oh wait. I'm not at all. :rolleyes:

--Kaiser--

King Of Wishful Thinking wrote: »

My opinion, based on what I've read, is that humans were / are predominately herbivorous but only when the diet consisted of raw fruits, nuts and vegetables. Cooking food is what really changed it all as then our digestive systems changed, as we lost the ability to digest cellulose ((humans lost their intestinal cilia when they started cooking with fire) and so ultimately became devoid of B12 rich bacteria in our guts.

I'm not interested in your opinion on the natural human diet and neither should anyone else be. It is a scientific fact that humans are omnivores.

Since you questioned the 'hard science' line, this site has plenty
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

Some examples of evidence.

The fossil record. Approximately 2.5 million years of human omnivory/faunivory are apparent in the record, with genetic adaptation to that diet the inevitable and inescapable outcome of evolution. The supporting evidence here includes isotope analysis of fossils, providing further evidence of consumption of animal foods.

Comparative anatomy of the human gut. The best scientific evidence available to date on gut morphology--analyzed using two different statistical approaches--shows evidence of adaptations for which the best explanation is the practice of faunivory. (Faunivory as an explanation is also supported by optimal foraging theory in hunter-gatherer tribes.) Further, the human gut morphology is not what might be expected for a strict vegetarian/fruit diet.

Intestinal receptors for heme iron. The existence of intestinal receptors for the specific absorption of heme iron is strong evidence of adaptation to animal foods in the diet, as heme iron is found in nutritionally significant amounts only in animal foods (fauna).

B-12 an essential nutrient. Similarly, the requirement for vitamin B-12 in human nutrition, and the lack of reliable (year-round) plant sources suggests evolutionary adaptation to animal foods in the human diet.

Plant foods are poor sources of EFAs. In general, the EFAs in plant foods are in the "wrong" ratio (with the exception of a very few exotic, expensive oils), and the low synthesis rates of EPA, DHA, and other long-chain fatty acids from plant precursors point to plant foods as an "inferior" source of EFAs. This strongly suggests adaptation to foods that include preformed long-chain fatty acids, i.e., fauna.

Taurine synthesis rate. The low rate of taurine synthesis in humans, compared to that in herbivorous animals, suggests human adaptation to food sources of taurine (fauna) in the human diet.

Slow conversion of beta-carotene. The sluggish conversion rate of beta-carotene to vitamin A, especially when compared to the conversion rate in herbivorous animals, suggests adaptation to dietary sources of preformed vitamin A (i.e., a diet that includes fauna).

Plant foods available in evolution were poor zinc and iron sources. The plant foods available during evolution (fruits, vegetative plant parts, nuts, but no grains or legumes) generally provide low amounts of zinc and iron, two essential minerals. These minerals are provided by grains, but grains are products of agriculture (i.e., were not available during evolution), and contain many antinutrients that inhibit mineral absorption. This suggests that the nutritional requirements for iron and zinc were primarily met via animal foods during human evolution.

Bitter taste threshold as a trophic marker. An analysis of the human bitter taste threshold, when compared to the threshold of other mammals, suggests that our sensitivity to the bitter taste is comparable to that of carnivores/omnivores.

There is no such thing as a veg*n gatherer tribe. And there are no records to indicate that any such tribes ever existed; also no evidence of any vegan societies either.

Maybe you should go back to your vegan dogma websites where your beliefs won't be challenged

Zwillinge

Immaculate Pasta wrote: »

Already am one. :cool:

I've been one all my life. My parents gave it up for Lent before I was born and just carried on with it. I don't know what I'm missing because I've never tried it. Not in the slightest bit curious either, I have no intention of eating a dead animal.

Same as myself Never touched the stuff!

Parents eat meat though, as my brother says, I was just born a feckin' eejit :rolleyes:

Eriopis

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I'm not interested in your opinion on the natural human diet and neither should anyone else be. It is a scientific fact that humans are omnivores.

Since you questioned the 'hard science' line, this site has plenty
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

Some examples of evidence.



Maybe you should go back to your vegan dogma websites where your beliefs won't be challenged

Good grief, hostile much? What vegan p*ssed on your fry-up this morning?
I really don't understand the hostility that some meat-eaters have for vegetarians/ vegans. If any of the posts by plant-eaters here are on the heavy side, it is only in answer to aggressive questioning (and false statements) by meat advocates. I'm not about to go and whip the steak off your plate, why are you trying to convince us to eat meat, when we neither like it, want it nor see any particularly compelling argument for it?

As for vegan societies - veganism is ultimately just a strict form of vegetarianism, and vegetarian societies have been around for thousands of years. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_vegetarianism.

bronte

Millicent wrote: »

Any female vegetarians doing okay for iron without meat or supplements?

Yep! I've been doing fine for about 19 years.
Never had any symptoms so far.

dearg lady

bronte wrote: »

Yep! I've been doing fine for about 19 years.
Never had any symptoms so far.

Some people are naturally better at absorbing B12 though. I'm a meat eater but I have to take a supplement. a strong enough one too, they're always a little cagey about selling it to me in the chemist!

Shenshen

Millicent wrote: »

Can I ask are you male or female? I'm considering vegetarianism but I'm susceptible to anaemia and don't want to have to rely on supplements. Iron from non-heme sources doesn't seem to me to be anywhere near sufficient enough for the average woman. Any female vegetarians doing okay for iron without meat or supplements?

Female vegetarian here, have been for going on 4 years now, and no problems to report.

As I posted previously, in my workplace there are 3 more female vegetarians, and 1 female vegan, and as far as I'm aware none of them have any health problems either.
That said, if you are liable to deficiencies, I would advise maybe consulting a doctor. Advise on the internet tends not to be the most reliable.

--Kaiser--

Eriopis wrote: »

Good grief, hostile much? What vegan p*ssed on your fry-up this morning?
I really don't understand the hostility that some meat-eaters have for vegetarians/ vegans. If any of the posts by plant-eaters here are on the heavy side, it is only in answer to aggressive questioning (and false statements) by meat advocates. I'm not about to go and whip the steak off your plate, why are you trying to convince us to eat meat, when we neither like it, want it nor see any particularly compelling argument for it?

As for vegan societies - veganism is ultimately just a strict form of vegetarianism, and vegetarian societies have been around for thousands of years. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_vegetarianism.

I don't try to force my diet on anyone. The hostility was directed at whateverhisnameis attempting to argue that humans are naturally herbivorous - which is preposterous. If you want to argue that vegetarianism is healthy, fine - but don't start with such a demonstrably false statement.

As to your point about vegetarian societies, the argument was that no vegetarian hunter/gatherer tribes have been found and as far as I know this is still true. As in humans, left to their own devices, naturally kill and eat animals. Instinct

bbam

ScumLord wrote: »

Meat and dairy cattle are completely different beasts. A cow breed for milking won't end up being consumed by humans from what I know. They may end up in other types of factories.

I think that's the case across the board, they have particular breeds for particular tasks and they're not interchangeable.

They are only a bit different really, but on a whole all the cull cows go the one way... into the factory, all on the same day, down the same processing line.
Interestingly there were huge prices for cull cows this year due to the olympics and the demand for burgers and other processed meat.

Actually this is my one grype with the meat inductury as a whole and I think accounts for some of the "not great" meat we sometimes get..
Cows will produce on average one calf a year and be productive for about 8 years, becoming a cull at about 10 years old. So on any one year about 10% of the meat entering the factory chain is old "cull" cows. Now their meat would be fine if it were hung for 28/30 days to rest after slaughter, but due to the market forces administered by Tesco and friends meat isn't hung for nearly this long.

If you compare this to pork/bacon for example a sow has 30 piglets per year, if she just produced for 4 years it would mean that about >2% of the pork was from older animals...

I doubt this notion of cull cows will do anything to sway vegetarians back into eating much beef :rolleyes:, but facts are facts.

Eriopis

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I don't try to force my diet on anyone. The hostility was directed at whateverhisnameis attempting to argue that humans are naturally herbivorous - which is preposterous. If you want to argue that vegetarianism is healthy, fine - but don't start with such a demonstrably false statement.

As to your point about vegetarian societies, the argument was that no vegetarian hunter/gatherer tribes have been found and as far as I know this is still true. As in humans, left to their own devices, naturally kill and eat animals. Instinct

there are some vegetarian tribes - the Tarahumara Indians for example, the Brokpa in the Himalayas, and according to this http://www.ivu.org/history/native_americans.html vegetarianism was common amongst native americans prior to the introduction of horses to America.

As you said above, we are omnivores. This means that we can consume both animal and plant foods.
Our teeth are not truly carnivorous, you just need to compare them to those of dogs, cats, bears to see the difference between ours and truly carnivorous animals. As someone previously pointed out we are born with an appendix, pointing to our more herbivorous ancestors. Our closest relatives (gorillas, chimpanzees) are also either exclusively or mostly vegetarian. We can't make our own vitamin C, we need substantial amounts of other plant sourced vitamins, and eating an all-meat diet will make us sick. Eating an all plant diet will not, as long as it is well balanced. Regardless, for modern humans this is all somewhat moot - it's ultimately a choice, for personal reasons of health, ethics and taste/preference, with a look to sustainability thrown in for good measure, especially as the population of our own human race continues to rise exponentially. One day, we may not have a choice with regards to meat, the resources may simply not be available for large scale meat consumption.

--Kaiser--

Eriopis wrote: »

there are some vegetarian tribes - the Tarahumara Indians for example, the Brokpa in the Himalayas, and according to this http://www.ivu.org/history/native_americans.html vegetarianism was common amongst native americans prior to the introduction of horses to America.

As you said above, we are omnivores. This means that we can consume both animal and plant foods.
Our teeth are not truly carnivorous, you just need to compare them to those of dogs, cats, bears to see the difference between ours and truly carnivorous animals. As someone previously pointed out we are born with an appendix, pointing to our more herbivorous ancestors. Our closest relatives (gorillas, chimpanzees) are also either exclusively or mostly vegetarian. We can't make our own vitamin C, we need substantial amounts of other plant sourced vitamins, and eating an all-meat diet will make us sick. Eating an all plant diet will not, as long as it is well balanced. Regardless, for modern humans this is all somewhat moot - it's ultimately a choice, for personal reasons of health, ethics and taste/preference, with a look to sustainability thrown in for good measure, especially as the population of our own human race continues to rise exponentially. One day, we may not have a choice with regards to meat, the resources may simply not be available for large scale meat consumption.

No one is stating that humans are carnivorous (neither are dogs for that matter). Chimpanzees will sometimes cannibalise other chimps and would eat insects as quite a regular part of their diet, as will gorillas so I would call neither 'mostly or exclusively vegetarian'. Eskimos eat an all-meat diet and don't get sick. You can also get vit C from animal sources.

That's enough nit-picking for the moment!