Has your outlook changed since realising there is no God?

tunedout

philologos wrote: »

Fourthly, the Biblical narrative concerning creation, sin / wrongdoing and the ultimate restoration of Creation makes much better sense than any secular explanation of morality that I've seen which takes the relativist / postmodern approach of saying "what's right for you is right for you, and what's wrong for you is wrong for you" rather than saying that things are objectively right and wrong. The whole atheistic relativist morality falls apart at the first hurdle. What about fieldshooting people in a city centre for a Sunday lunchtime activity? Who are you to say that this is wrong, after what's right for you is only right for you, this could be right for me? Unless of course there is an objective law giver and an objective judge.

'Morals' can be explained just fine without that oul book written by a bunch of numpties. Without any 'moral code' a species would go extinct as they wouldn't be able to form complex relationships and societal structures which is a prerequisite for reproduction. Therefore we wouldn't be here to discuss moral codes if we didn't inherently have them in the first place. So it can be explained factually and logically by Evolution and Darwinism just fine, both of which are theories of years of research and study, verified by biological departments of top ranking universities.

If you wish to prefer the explanation of 'morals' offered by a primitive, sexist, racist people who would crucify a man for having delusional beliefs then that's your choice.

philologos wrote: »

Fifthly, I've seen the impact that Jesus has on both me and others.

Unfortunately, so have I.

Rasheed

adamski8 wrote: »

What if he said he and his family were jewish? You probably would have no problem with that then. Just because this whole santa business, and thats what it is, has really caught on with children bombared with the idea that being materialistic is a great thing doesnt mean everyone should buy into it. I think its one of the worst things to teach children. Act sort of good for a few weeks before xmas and **** loads of things you want for nothing. Even though the parents have worked their holes off all year to afford it

I don't think it has to be materialistic nor do they need to be given '**** loads' of things.

You are only a child for a short time, to believe in a bit of magic at Christmas never had a detrimental affect on anyone.

Did you believe in santa at a stage?

gbee

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

It sounds arrogant to say you 'realised' something like this at the age of nine .

The thing is this: we don't know HOW individuals think and function.

A message can be given to a sampling 1,000 people from a respected source. How many really believe the message and how many will begin to find oddities in the message and then go asking questions whose answers; that, in the mind of the person asking the question; becomes rubbish and inspires even more questions but to the person who had never thought to ask the question themselves, makes perfect sense and reinforces their own beliefs in the message.

I personally can't understand how any adult believes in God.

gbee

Rasheed wrote: »

Did you believe in santa at a stage?

I reiterate MY Mantra: Children need and deserve honesty and trust as a basic human right to enable them to grow at their best potential and to make their own magic.

Giving and sharing your resources with others less well off than you, of your OWN valition is a far cry from forcing innocent children to believe in a sudo godlike creature made commercial by the Coca Cola company for commercial gain.

midlandsmissus

gbee wrote: »

The thing is this: we don't know HOW individuals think and function.

A message can be given to a sampling 1,000 people from a respected source. How many really believe the message and how many will begin to find oddities in the message and then go asking questions whose answers; that, in the mind of the person asking the question; becomes rubbish and inspires even more questions but to the person who had never thought to ask the question themselves, makes perfect sense and reinforces their own beliefs in the message.

I personally can't understand how any adult believes in God.

Gbee stop being so arrogant.

People's definition of God is different for a start.

To have any proper argument on belief/non belief in God, you need to first analyse and be perfectly clear on what you interpret the word God to mean. Only when you are clear on that can you start debating whether you believe in God or not.

Sergeant

Yes, very much so. In the autumn of 2007 I came to the conclusion that there is no God. In the intervening years I have posted over 70k times about my atheism on various forums, blogs and news sites. It's tremendously liberating to come to a relatively simple subjectivist viewpoint, and then tell everyone about it at every single opportunity. I never waste an opportunity to let everyone know about my atheism. I'm so enlightened now.

UrbanSea

Ah I hate these threads.

Don't mind atheists, it's when atheists pull the whole ''I'm smarter than you because of your beliefs'' card.

padd b1975

gbee wrote: »

I brought my children up with no God, no Santa.



We had an otherwise normal time, Christmas had both the Crib and Santa, they were not #banned# it was a bit of fun and a nice thing to do as wanted.

* scratches head*

9959

frag420 wrote: »

What exactly does god mean anyway?

To quote John Lennon: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain".

Later in a 'Rolling Stone' interview he said: "I think the bigger the pain, the more God you look for".

cometogether

Why do people who don't believe in God think they are automatically more intelligent than those who don't? Its a personal choice, not a whole lot to do with intelligence in my opinion.

midlandsmissus

I do believe in God.

But I have been struggling lately. Not in my bellief - ust in my wondering why.

I believe Earth is only temporary - but I struggle with - why should any aspect of energy in the universe be left in a place where suffering is so extreme? april jones, jill meagher, that new girl who chose to kill herself in canada over bullying, my own awful experiences.

I think - why were we left here to go through this? Why?

ryoishin

Having studied theology and then philosophy the one thing I realised is good people are good people regardless if they believe in God or not.

padd b1975

9959 wrote: »

To quote John Lennon: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain".

Later in a 'Rolling Stone' interview he said: "I think the bigger the pain, the more God you look for".

Thats the guy who felt the need to compare his band to the son of God as a publicity stunt?

Ellis Dee

It never ceases to amaze me how Christians unquestioningly base all of their beliefs on "Scripture", by which they mean a compilation of texts written over a long period by unknown members of a particularly backward and savage tribe in the Middle East, based - possibly, but very tenuously - on actual events or on accounts of these events related orally down through the centuries in an illiterate society , translated from language to language, selectively edited for various economic and political purposes, and on the whole just about as credible as the Beano and the Dandy.:rolleyes:

I suppose when I was able to read at about age 6, I really believed Desperate Dan ate cow pies - horns and all - that his aunt made for him, and that Foxy could take a shotgun blast in his arse and be back again next week and up to mischief.:)

But I grew out of it, and Santa and all that crap about the origins of the universe and the entity who can do everything, but still allows so much sh1t in the cosmos.:D

Religion is just a substitute for thought.:cool:

Now it's time for George Carlin. If some can go to their big house to pray every week, I suppose I have to hear his words of wisdom once again every now and then.

midlandsmissus

Ellis Dee wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how Christians unquestioningly base all of their beliefs on "Scripture", by which they mean a compilation of texts written over a long period by unknown members of a particularly backward and savage tribe in the Middle East, based - possibly, but very tenuously - on actual events or on accounts of these events related orally down through the centuries in an illiterate societ , translated from language to language, selectively edited for various economic and political purposes, and on the whole just about as credible as the Beano and the Dandy.:rolleyes:

I suppose when I was able to read at about age 6, I really believed Desperate Dan ate cow pies - horns and all - that his aunt made for him, and that Foxy could take a shotgun blast in his arse and be back again next week and up to mischief.:)

But I grew out of it, and Santa and all that crap about the origins of the universe and the entity who can do everything, but still allows so much sh1t in the cosmos.:D

Religion is just a substitute for thought.:cool:

Now it's time for George Carlin. If some can go to their big house to pray every week, I suppose I have to hear his words of wisdom once again every now and then.

What if you're not part of any religion but believe in God. Is your mind blown then?

Scanlas The 2nd

midlandsmissus wrote: »

gbee wrote: »

The thing is this: we don't know HOW individuals think and function.

A message can be given to a sampling 1,000 people from a respected source. How many really believe the message and how many will begin to find oddities in the message and then go asking questions whose answers; that, in the mind of the person asking the question; becomes rubbish and inspires even more questions but to the person who had never thought to ask the question themselves, makes perfect sense and reinforces their own beliefs in the message.

I personally can't understand how any adult believes in God.

Gbee stop being so arrogant.

People's definition of God is different for a start.

To have any proper argument on belief/non belief in God, you need to first analyse and be perfectly clear on what you interpret the word God to mean. Only when you are clear on that can you start debating whether you believe in God or not.

Most people refer to a powerful creator in the sky when they refer to God.

What God really is as referred to by Jesus and the Budhha is what Eckharte Tolle describes. God is the nothingness or stillness inside you. It is the empty space of awareness that " is in all of us".

Look through Jesus and the Buddha's quotes and you'll realise what God really is.

PlainP

oldyouth wrote: »

gbee wrote: »

What one believes should be theirs, it's such an important thing that it should be an adult decision, an enlightened decision at that too, not 'just taking over the family business'

But have you not just done the same thing with your children regarding your atheism??

From my atheist perspective and bringing up my own children, they are told about all gods and all religions. They know that different people believe different things. My children are 7 and 9 atm but I hope when they are old enough to properly understand religion they will make their own choices on what to believe in.

Parents who have religion blinker their children into knowing only "their God" they don't properly explain about other religions or belief systems.

Just my two cents.

midlandsmissus

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Most people refer to a powerful creator in the sky when they refer to God.

What God really is as referred to by Jesus and the Budhha is what Eckharte Tolle describes. God is the nothingness or stillness inside you. It is the empty space of awareness that " is in all of us".

Look through Jesus and the Buddha's quotes and you'll realise what God really is.

I have come to my realisation of what God is and I believe you are following the same path as me

When atheists say they dont believe in God, they need to be clear what theyre referring to. Alot of people have different interpretations of the word God.

Sergeant

I wish to God that people would stop posting Bill Hicks and George Carlin clips in an attempt to support whatever viewpoint they are trying to make.

girl2

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I do believe in God.

But I have been struggling lately. Not in my bellief - ust in my wondering why.

I believe Earth is only temporary - but I struggle with - why should any aspect of energy in the universe be left in a place where suffering is so extreme? april jones, jill meagher, that new girl who chose to kill herself in canada over bullying, my own awful experiences.

I think - why were we left here to go through this? Why?

I feel exactly the same. I have become so disillusioned by this world and the suffering. I cannot understand and I am really struggling with how people have become so 'evil' (I use the word evil - but I don't think it's even the right word - it's more how people have become so ok with causing complete pain and suffering to other human beings and animals).

I too believe in God, moreso these days than in the past. I think that my own self study and attendance at satsangs has helped me with this. I am not a follower of any organised religion (although my roots were with the Catholic Church)…but now I accept that there is something so much bigger than ourselves. His has helped me become a more compassionate and empathic person of late…I feel others' pain in a far greater way than I ever did. And I have realised that this is a very bad world nowadays and I have no desire to live in this world full of hatred and pain.

padd b1975

Sergeant wrote: »

I wish to God that people would stop posting Bill Hicks and George Carlin clips in an attempt to support whatever viewpoint they are trying to make.

Just be glad they haven't posted clips of that insufferable windbag Christy Hitchens.

padd b1975

girl2 wrote: »

And I have realised that this is a very bad world nowadays and I have no desire to live in this world full of hatred and pain.

I think you need to speak to a doctor.

gbee

padd b1975 wrote: »

* scratches head*

We liked the guy in the red suit, he was fun, we put up our stockings, wrapped presents, the whole nine yards ~ we did it for fun.

All our family bought the presents for each other as small children ~ the presents never 'magically' appeared for free.

9959

ryoishin wrote: »

Having studied theology and then philosophy the one thing I realised is good people are good people regardless if they believe in God or not.

As a stand-alone statement, the above is fine, if a little platitudinous.

The problem is when 'good people' do very bad things to people whom they believe are not, 'good people'.
The Christian Crusaders, The Taliban etc.

I'd recommend a book by the late-great Philosopher and part-time Theologian, Christopher Hitchens, 'God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything'.

Ellis Dee

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What if you're not part of any religion but believe in God. Is your mind blown then?

I have not claimed that anyone's mind was blown, but find it strange that anyone will accept the existence of something for which there is absolutely no evidence.

However, you are perfectly free to believe whatever you want, especially if you feel it gives you some kind of reference point, and you won't do any harm to those around you as long as you are not part of an organised group seeking to push its agenda.:cool:

midlandsmissus

padd b1975 wrote: »

I think you need to speak to a doctor.

I feel the same as her though. Im very interested in spirituality and spend alot of time reading up on it and developing myself. But I feel the more spiritually evolved you get the higher your level of compassion gets, and it can feel almost unbearable to see all the horrors done to other people around you.

I, also, and you can mock me if you like, feel that I remember coming from a place where none of these things happened, and it is shocking and horrific for me to see them.

Im just not sure why Im here. I feel lost is definitely how you could describe myself.

gbee

Rasheed wrote: »

How would it have harmed them to believe up until the ages of 9/10?

Hitler is alleged to have said "give me a child up to seven years of age and he is mine for life"

It's the most formative years, the most impressionable.

mickrock

9959 wrote: »

To quote John Lennon: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain".

He also sang "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together".

Maybe he was pointing out that we're all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, i.e. God.

midlandsmissus

A god quote over there on the spirituality forum

If there is a God, a single creator or if you believe in a God then you have to accept that God existed and exists free and independent of any religion. Religion is man's creation and as such is subject to all man's failings and imperfections. You don't need religion to access God.

girl2

padd b1975 wrote: »

I think you need to speak to a doctor.

Thanks for your concern - but what I mean is that I have no desire to live in such a world - I would much prefer to live in a world where people are not causing such pain and suffering onto others. That's all.

flutterflye

I was 12, so no, I don't think my outlook has changed.
I was delighted to have come to the realisation though - it was like a moment of clarity - things finally made sense.

Wibbs

gbee wrote: »

Hitler is alleged to have said "give me a child up to seven years of age and he is mine for life"

If he did he nicked the quote from the Jesuits.

padd b1975

gbee wrote: »

We liked the guy in the red suit, he was fun, we put up our stockings, wrapped presents, the whole nine yards ~ we did it for fun.

All our family bought the presents for each other as small children ~ the presents never 'magically' appeared for free.

I think its wrong to deprive a child of what is a huge and much loved tradition for both them and their parents.

What else have you deprived them of??

A trip to the panto, easter eggs' St. Patricks day parade?? perhaps you don't let them take part in a school play because none of that is real and will only harm them going by your fcuked up logic.

padd b1975

girl2 wrote: »

Thanks for your concern - but what I mean is that I have no desire to live in such a world - I would much prefer to live in a world where people are not causing such pain and suffering onto others. That's all.

No bother, your post came across as you feeling a bit down.:cool:

flutterflye

gbee wrote: »

I brought my children up with no God, no Santa.

Recently we had a family reunion and the subject came up, my children said they felt superior to the others who believed and the teachers tried to make them lie, after that failed they asked them not to say anything.

My daughter admitted to having believed in the Tooth Fairy as I had not expressly included the Tooth Fairy as non existent.

We had an otherwise normal time, Christmas had both the Crib and Santa, they were not #banned# it was a bit of fun and a nice thing to do as wanted.

I would have loved to do this myself.
I've had such problems lying to my kids about this magical man that comes down the chimney.
I unfortunately let others convince me that this would be mean.
I feel uncomfortable lying to them, but I would also feel uncomfortable telling them the truth!
I don't know - I'm two minds on it.

dirtyden

gbee wrote: »

Hitler is alleged to have said "give me a child up to seven years of age and he is mine for life"

It's the most formative years, the most impressionable.

Well if Hitler said it, it must be true.

gbee

oldyouth wrote: »

But have you not just done the same thing with your children regarding your atheism??

My children were free to explore other avenues and to understand that there are many opportunities.

They are grown up now and I have a Christian/Muslim grandchild as example. One son is Mormon another Catholic and the rest don't bother, except one girlfriend is twisting a reluctant arm ~

gbee

dirtyden wrote: »

Well if Hitler said it, it must be true.

He did not say the part about the most impressionable years though, and it is true.

Tar.Aldarion

Not much, though it feels better to do things because you believe they are right rather than be told a book of rules where you get rewarded or punished for how you act.

gbee

flutterflye wrote: »

I don't know - I'm two minds on it.

Once started, it's probably worse to change now. Just start introducing the fun element and ignoring Santa, replacing him somewhat with a 'let's do this together this year'

padd b1975

gbee wrote: »

My children were free to explore other avenues and to understand that there are many opportunities.

Pity they were not free to experience the thrill of going to bed on Christmas Eve full of excitement then getting up at silly o'clock to tear open their presents from Santa like every other normally raised children.

Having said that, I hope that as 5/6/7/8 year olds they appreciated their freedom to explore those avenues and opportunities :rolleyes:

suicide_circus

gbee wrote: »

I brought my children up with no God, no Santa.

Recently we had a family reunion and the subject came up, my children said they felt superior to the others who believed.

Superior? Nice kids.

gbee

padd b1975 wrote: »

will only harm them going by your fcuked up logic.

In my children school the festive play was always the nativity and all my children took part. Today we don't have that option any-more because it offends other religions ~ so we are told.

As a family we dressed up at St Patrick's Day and we always made the newspapers in colour and had tourists constantly taking our photos. We used to face paint elaborately and pretty much started a trend.

padd b1975

suicide_circus wrote: »

Superior? Nice kids.

The apple did not fall far from the tree in that house.;)

9959

mickrock wrote: »

He also sang "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together".

Maybe he was pointing out that we're all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, i.e. God.

He also sang "I am the eggman', maybe he was saying that he was a eggman.
Lennon said in an interview about his own 'I Am The Walrus' lyrics: "I can write that crap too", possibly in reference to Bob Dylan.

Check out the scene in 'The Life of Brian' where a character played by John Cleese holds a shoe aloft - hastily discarded by the scarpering Brian - before proclaiming: "Behold, for he has given us a sign...".

So perhaps your interpretation of 'I Am The Walrus' is correct', it's certainly novel.
Where as the Lennon song 'God', from which I quoted, is taken from his first solo album, during his 'tell the truth and stop the bullsh*t' phase.
We'll leave the people on this thread to decide whether your 'reading' of 'I Am The Walrus' coincides with theirs.

dirtyden

gbee wrote: »

He did not say the part about the most impressionable years though, and it is true.

Why did you incorrectly quote Hitler as your barometer for how kids may be indoctrinated? Do you believe it adds some gravitas to your point of view?

I think kids probably learn quicker at that age, but it is as they get older they learn how to rationalise what they learned. I mean even the OP rationalised his beliefs at 9-10.

minidazzler

Since realising there is no God I have been absolutely amazed about what normal people have achieved. I seen beauty in the stillness of Cathedrals in the day, huge beautiful temples build by man. Humans put people into SPACE, we regularly FLY around the world. Humans are fcuking amazing!

Rasheed

gbee wrote: »

Hitler is alleged to have said "give me a child up to seven years of age and he is mine for life"

It's the most formative years, the most impressionable.

I don't understand you, you think if you let your child believe in Santa for 7+ years, they would believe for life???

gbee

suicide_circus wrote: »

Superior? Nice kids.

They are actually and very appreciate of their other upbringing as well in their diet, which would go very OT but my youngest had perfect teeth and no fillings at his last Government Health check up prior to his leaving primary school.

suicide_circus

gbee wrote: »

Bringing up children in religion, any religion is child abuse, pure and simple.

I was a sponge as an impressionable baby in the 50's and 60's, I did not take the vow or pledge at Confirmation circa 1965/6 and I went through a torturous time and felt very much alone with the realisation that my parents, whom I've never forgiven, had lied to me.

So had my teachers, the priests, the nuns, the Gardaí my neighbours and friends. They all had lied. The most important thing in life, imo, is honesty and trust, I was denied that.

What one believes should be theirs, it's such an important thing that it should be an adult decision, an enlightened decision at that too, not 'just taking over the family business' AND to top it all there are many, many religions.

Forgive the armchair psychology but you sound like you have some deep seated issues involving your parents that goes well beyond the "lies" they told you.