Has your outlook changed since realising there is no God?

endacl

girl2 wrote: »

Hi. What about angels? For there's an awful awful lot of people who believe in them.

There are an awful lot of dumb people. Further evidence of this fact include Fianna Fail voters and the inexplicable popularity of coldplay.

af_thefragile

[-0-] wrote: »

I'm paraphrasing Hitchens here.

We are expected to believe that for the 80k - 250k years before the appearance of Jesus, Heaven stood by with indifference while people died at a very young age from things like their teeth and child birth. The average life expectancy was early to mid 20s. Humans had, and still do have, an oversized adrenal gland and a small pre frontal lobe. Then around 2,000 years ago they decided it was time to intervene by sending Gods' son to his slaughter so that humanities sins can be forgiven. He didn't appear to the Chinese who already had literature. He appeared to a bunch of sand farmers who were unable to read and write. This sort of tripe cannot be believed by any intellectual.

Regarding design, the universe is severely flawed. Andromeda is on a collision course with us, and darkness is heading our way too. Pretty soon in there will be no stars in the sky. Some design isn't it?

Firstly Hitchens was a self absorbed arrogant dick. Its very easy reducing human history into the a very narrow and polarised view that suits your agenda.

Secondly there's nothing flawed in the universe. The universe is just the way it is and so is everything in the universe the way it was meant to be. Everything in this universe has a beginning and an end including the universe itself.



This is probably an extremely unpopular opinion but from what I've observed most people chose to become athiests because it simply suits their lifestyle better. Its difficult to survive through teenage years while holding up the concept of sinning. Remove religion from your life and all morality becomes relative, life becomes much easier to deal with. You can do as you will. Hence many people give up on the concept of God and chose to live as atheists during their teenage years.

[-0-]

af_thefragile wrote: »

Firstly Hitchens was a self absorbed arrogant dick.

That doesn't make the points I made invalid.

Its very easy reducing human history into the a very narrow and polarised view that suits your agenda.

It's easy because it's correct.

Secondly there's nothing flawed in the universe. The universe is just the way it is and so is everything in the universe the way it was meant to be. Everything in this universe has a beginning and an end including the universe itself.

Nothing flawed in the universe? I don't think the parents of people born with disabilities would agree with you.

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

Firstly Hitchens was a self absorbed arrogant dick. Its very easy reducing human history into the a very narrow and polarised view that suits your agenda.

Secondly there's nothing flawed in the universe. The universe is just the way it is and so is everything in the universe the way it was meant to be. Everything in this universe has a beginning and an end including the universe itself.

Hitchens personality flaws do not invalidate his arguement.
And i dont think the poster meant that the universe is fundamentally flawed but as a design for man to live in, you know, MAN HIS CHOSEN LOVED CREATION... its a bit crap seeing as a huge part of the planet and pretty much the entire rest of the universe is totally inhospitable to us.
A little like designing a house where only the hotpress is habitable.

af_thefragile

[-0-] wrote: »

It's easy because it's correct.



Nothing flawed in the universe? I don't think the parents of people born with disabilities would agree with you.

Its anything but correct.

And yes, nothing is flawed. Just becaused a child is born with a disability doesn't make the universe flawed. Its just the way of life. Life was never meant to be perfect.

9959

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't know, I found it a relief when I first came across it. Not being is something I can honestly say I'm almost looking forward to some days. A bit like going to sleep after a long and hard day : you close your eyes and you stop existing.
To me this sounds beautiful.

By contrast, the idea of eternal life sounds hellish.

Having been 'tipped the wink' by a poster on this forum, I know longer fret about the concept of eternal nothingness, I can now consult - through their best-selling books - two good Doctors of the Afterlife, Raymond Moody and Pim van Lommel, the former's website boasts of THREE appearances on 'Oprah' so obviously his credentials are impeccable, however, the latter has yet to make his first appearance.
My good lady wife informs me that 'Oprah' is now defunct, so Dr. Van Lommel may be waiting quite a while to make his debut, though he might magically appear on 'the repeats' the way he magically knows what happens when we die.

[-0-]

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its anything but correct.

Well I would love to hear your critique of it, instead of one liners without any substance.

And yes, nothing is flawed. Just becaused a child is born with a disability doesn't make the universe flawed. Its just the way of life. Life was never meant to be perfect.

That is a serious cop out. Do you really think that a creator would create kids with disabilities, would let a mother carry a child for several months before ending it's life (and sometimes her life as well), would allow an Austrian man to do awful stuff to his daughter for 20+ years all the while ignoring her prayers for help. To say that that was just a test for her is terribly insulting. Would you say that to her face?

[-0-]

And while I'm at it, have you ever actually sat down and considered what heaven would be like? Being able to think for all eternity, surrounded by your family. It sounds more like hell to me.

af_thefragile

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Hitchens personality flaws do not invalidate his arguement.
And i dont think the poster meant that the universe is fundamentally flawed but as a design for man to live in, you know, MAN HIS CHOSEN LOVED CREATION... its a bit crap seeing as a huge part of the planet and pretty much the entire rest of the universe is totally inhospitable to us.
A little like designing a house where only the hotpress is habitable.

Just because Hitchen's said it doesn't convert an opinion into a fact.

Why should the world be all pretty and perfect? If you considered what most religions say, this world is nothing but a test. The world is just a bridge for humans onto their journey towards God. The final abode of humans in with God in perfection. To understand perfection, one must experience imperfection first. To understand pleasure, one must experience pain first etc. etc.

The universe is huge beyond imagination to give humans a sense of the grandness of God's creation. So when a human tried to imagine how big the universe is, he can get the vague idea how much bigger and mightier the creator of the universe might be.


And I don't expect you guys to get this anyway...

endacl

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

If someone expects only atheists to reply to a thread there's a dedicated forum on Boards for them.

And if a poster doesn't finds the 'arrogance and smugness' of atheists distasteful, perhaps they should hide themselves away in one of the holygod forums?

The op's question was straightforward and valid. It just didn't apply to you.

endacl

af_thefragile wrote: »

The universe is huge beyond imagination to give humans a sense of the grandness of God's creation. So when a human tried to imagine how big the universe is, he can get the vague idea how much bigger and mightier the creator of the universe might be.

Actually, while being huge, it is in fact imaginable. And also increasingly measurable.

I presume the human you reference above had no access to modern telescopes, maths or physics?

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

Just because Hitchen's said it doesn't convert an opinion into a fact.

Why should the world be all pretty and perfect? If you considered what most religions say, this world is nothing but a test. The world is just a bridge for humans onto their journey towards God. The final abode of humans in with God in perfection. To understand perfection, one must experience imperfection first. To understand pleasure, one must experience pain first etc. etc.

The universe is huge beyond imagination to give humans a sense of the grandness of God's creation. So when a human tried to imagine how big the universe is, he can get the vague idea how much bigger and mightier the creator of the universe might be.



[/B]QUOTE]
Just because Hitchen's said it doesn't convert an opinion into a fact.
I never said it does. The only opinion offered on the validity of his arguements was by you and it rested solely on you not liking him as a person.
And I don't expect you guys to get this anyway...[/

You guys who?

af_thefragile

[-0-] wrote: »

And while I'm at it, have you ever actually sat down and considered what heaven would be like? Being able to think for all eternity, surrounded by your family. It sounds more like hell to me.

If only you thought about heaven in terms of life on earth.

Heaven is nothing like life on earth. Heaven is not about living forever on a dreary planet, in a dreary city, surrounded by dreary people for the rest of your life. Heaven is where you will truly experience what perfection is. Its nothing like the mind can ever imagine or comprehend. Its where you will be able to see God and be with him.

Its like if God came to you and told you "I've got a deal for you. I'll show you all the secrets of the universe and beyond, all the knowledge that every philosopher, mathemathecian and scientist has been striving all his life to figure out, I'll lay them all out in open right in front of you and you'll finally be able to see everything how it is. There's just one condition. You need to spend 70 odd years on this planet called Earth where life will be pretty tough and you'll endure many challenge but if you come clean, you'll be able to come and be with me and I'll show you all there is to know".
Would you say "Yeah, 70yrs is not that long, I'll manage it and then I can't wait to finally be with God and find out everything there is!" Or would you say "Hmm, no thanks. I'll rather spend the 70yrs on Earth in vain pursuits and screw everything after that!".

There's a lot written about what heaven is like. If you read and think about iit with a polarised view you'll never get it.

Calibos

Most atheists don't think all religious people are stupid or intellectually inferior. They are however inferior in critical thinking or superior in compartmentalisation.

BTW, I can't believe someone trotted out the 'Atheists were rebelious teens/following a fad" argument. The ultimate irony is that religion is the ultimate fad following. Ultimately when you have demolished every argument/'evidence' they have, you end up with, "Well, billions of people believed for thousands of years so there must be something in it"

I'll never understand the cognitive dissonance whereby someone stating, "I don't believe and heres why" or countering the so called evidence behind the religious counter argument is arrogance and disrespect, but that wanting to impose the rules of your religion on others, (Ban gay marriage etc) is not considered arrogant??????

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote: »

I'll lay them all out in open right in front of you and you'll finally be able to see everything how it is.

For eternity? Sounds pretty boring, no thanks
Rather spend my 70 years figuring it out for myself instead of playing along with some power trip

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

If only you thought about heaven in terms of life on earth.

Heaven is nothing like life on earth. Heaven is not about living forever on a dreary planet, in a dreary city, surrounded by dreary people for the rest of your life. Heaven is where you will truly experience what perfection is. Its nothing like the mind can ever imagine or comprehend. Its where you will be able to see God and be with him.

Its like if God came to you and told you "I've got a deal for you. I'll show you all the secrets of the universe and beyond, all the knowledge that every philosopher, mathemathecian and scientist has been striving all his life to figure out, I'll lay them all out in open right in front of you and you'll finally be able to see everything how it is. There's just one condition. You need to spend 70 odd years on this planet called Earth where life will be pretty tough and you'll endure many challenge but if you come clean, you'll be able to come and be with me and I'll show you all there is to know".
Would you say "Yeah, 70yrs is not that long, I'll manage it and then I can't wait to finally be with God and find out everything there is!" Or would you say "Hmm, no thanks. I'll rather spend the 70yrs on Earth in vain pursuits and screw everything after that!".

There's a lot written about what heaven is like. If you read and think about iit with a polarised view you'll never get it.

First hand accounts?
If not its fiction and speculation.

af_thefragile

endacl wrote: »

Actually, while being huge, it is in fact imaginable. And also increasingly measurable.

I presume the human you reference above had no access to modern telescopes, maths or physics?

Why do you automatically assume people who believe in God and religion have absolutely no knowledge of science?

af_thefragile

Ghost Buster wrote: »

First hand accounts?
If not its fiction and speculation.

As I said, I don't expect you to get it.

Ghost Buster

Ghost Buster wrote: »

First hand accounts?
If not its fiction and speculation.

Yeah, I am sure I can take some DMT or whatever and then come back with some account of "heaven" but...

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why do you automatically assume people who believe in God and religion have absolutely no knowledge of science?

That was you saying they didn't, actually

af_thefragile

^Thank you for clarifying that.

bluewolf wrote: »

For eternity? Sounds pretty boring, no thanks
Rather spend my 70 years figuring it out for myself instead of playing along with some power trip

Its only boring if you're limited by your ego and imagination.

Again, Heaven is unlike anything you can imagine or comprehend.

endacl

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why do you automatically assume people who believe in God and religion have absolutely no knowledge of science?

I don't. Why did you assume I do?

endacl

af_thefragile wrote: »

As I said, I don't expect you to get it.

Good man. Get your exit strategy in early.

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

As I said, I don't expect you to get it.

When did you say that?
Oh , was I one of the 'you guys' you scatter gunned at?
Ok Let me try to get it...
The people who wrote about what heaven is like. Explain to me how they can know having never been there and come back or having never spoken to someone who has been there and come back. Please tell me but with a little less of the superiority with which atheists often get lumbered..

af_thefragile

endacl wrote: »

I don't. Why did you assume I do?

Well you said "I presume the human you reference above had no access to modern telescopes, maths or physics?". What does that mean? Can you expand on it a little more or explain it more clearly?

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote: »

Well you said "I presume the human you reference above had no access to modern telescopes, maths or physics?". What does that mean? Can you expand on it a little more or explain it more clearly?

you: "a human cant imagine the universe or how big it is"
him: "well yes they can actually, thanks to telescopes, maths, etc"
you: "why did you say religious people don't know science :mad: "

Pilotdude5

Never believed there was any gods. (The kid me who made my communion/confirmation doesn't count) It's too early in human history to jump to conclusions, many more Solar systems and Galaxies to explore and research yet!!

af_thefragile

Ghost Buster wrote: »

When did you say that?
Oh , was I one of the 'you guys' you scatter gunned at?
Ok Let me try to get it...
The people who wrote about what heaven is like. Explain to me how they can know having never been there and come back or having never spoken to someone who has been there and come back. Please tell me but with a little less of the superiority with which atheists often get lumbered..

I won't tell you anything you might not have heard before and dismissed as a "fairytale" or "fiction" or whatever.

af_thefragile

bluewolf wrote: »

you: "a human cant imagine the universe or how big it is"
him: "well yes they can actually, thanks to telescopes, maths, etc"
you: "why did you say religious people don't know science :mad: "

Well its a pretty ignorant answer on the basis of science then if you say you can accurately imagine and model what the universe is like based on the scientific understanding of the universe we have.

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

I won't tell you anything you might not have heard before and dismissed as a "fairytale" or "fiction" or whatever.

No answer huh?
BTW Im not one of the 'you guys' Im one of the other guys.... Any issues with those?

Its very simple.
People have written factual accounts on what heaven is like based upon....(you fill in the dotted bit)
Make a valid arguement and i will accept it. really. Im one of those accepting guys.

[-0-]

af_thefragile wrote: »

If only you thought about heaven in terms of life on earth.

Heaven is nothing like life on earth. Heaven is not about living forever on a dreary planet, in a dreary city, surrounded by dreary people for the rest of your life. Heaven is where you will truly experience what perfection is. Its nothing like the mind can ever imagine or comprehend. Its where you will be able to see God and be with him.

Its like if God came to you and told you "I've got a deal for you. I'll show you all the secrets of the universe and beyond, all the knowledge that every philosopher, mathemathecian and scientist has been striving all his life to figure out, I'll lay them all out in open right in front of you and you'll finally be able to see everything how it is. There's just one condition. You need to spend 70 odd years on this planet called Earth where life will be pretty tough and you'll endure many challenge but if you come clean, you'll be able to come and be with me and I'll show you all there is to know".
Would you say "Yeah, 70yrs is not that long, I'll manage it and then I can't wait to finally be with God and find out everything there is!" Or would you say "Hmm, no thanks. I'll rather spend the 70yrs on Earth in vain pursuits and screw everything after that!".

There's a lot written about what heaven is like. If you read and think about iit with a polarised view you'll never get it.

I do think about it in terms of life on earth. I believe there is no after life so heaven is right here, right now, if you will.

Come on man, you're almost as atheist as the rest of us, you just can't get passed that one God. You don't believe in the others right, God of Thunder, and so on?

So you believe that people who are born into other religions are damned then, do you? They are simply victims of their surroundings. If you were born in Iraq you wouldn't be a Christian.

Have you ever read the bible? It states and shaving your face is punishable by death. It's madness. Religion was our first flawed attempt at explaining where we come from. It's a shame that you can't see through the illogical fallacies.

endacl

af_thefragile wrote: »

Well you said "I presume the human you reference above had no access to modern telescopes, maths or physics?". What does that mean? Can you expand on it a little more or explain it more clearly?

No worries. The people who formulated most of the worlds religions were stone age tribesmen, with stone age technology, stone age knowledge, and stone age beliefs. In this regard, religious belief is entirely understandable. It explains things. The 'god of the gaps', if you like. We are now equipped to explain things in a better, more rational, more verifiable way. We've outgrown the need for magical explanations.

If a modern, educated, rational person insists in clinging on to the stone age explanations, well that's their affair, and they're entitled to do so. I respect that. I find it bizarre, but I do respect it.

af_thefragile

Ghost Buster wrote: »

No answer huh?
BTW Im not one of the 'you guys' Im one of the other guys.... Any issues with those?

OK, the other guy.
Nope, I can't give you an answer that may satisfy your curiosity.
At the expense of me writing an exposition on where people got the knowledge of religion and the afterlife from, I'll sum it up by saying "because God said so".

Sorry to disappoint.

endacl

af_thefragile wrote: »

Well its a pretty ignorant answer on the basis of science then if you say you can accurately imagine and model what the universe is like based on the scientific understanding of the universe we have.

Try that again using sentences and I'll get back to you.

--Kaiser--

Disproof of a benevolent god, 2300 odd years ago, in 4 sentences:

If god is willing to prevent evil but not able, then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able but not willing, then he is malevolent.
If he is both able and willing, then whence commeth evil?
And if he is both able and willing, then why call him god?

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

OK, the other guy.
Nope, I can't give you an answer that may satisfy your curiosity.
At the expense of me writing an exposition on where people got the knowledge of religion and the afterlife from, I'll sum it up by saying "because God said so".

Sorry to disappoint.

To whom and how?
A vast number of gods have allegedly said a lot of things which vary wildly and mostly contradict each other.
Can you give me more ?

Brain Stroking

cometogether wrote: »

Its a personal choice, not a whole lot to do with intelligence in my opinion.

No it's not and yes it is.

af_thefragile

[-0-] wrote: »

I do think about it in terms of life on earth. I believe there is no after life so heaven is right here, right now, if you will.

Come on man, you're almost as atheist as the rest of us, you just can't get passed that one God. You don't believe in the others right, God of Thunder, and so on?

So you believe that people who are born into other religions are damned then, do you? They are simply victims of their surroundings. If you were born in Iraq you wouldn't be a Christian.

Have you ever read the bible? It states and shaving your face is punishable by death. It's madness. Religion was our first flawed attempt at explaining where we come from. It's a shame that you can't see through the illogical fallacies.

There is an explanation for all of those questions you have posed there and I'm not going to go into them because firstly I'm not a theologist and secondly that will take too long and I don't have time for that, neither would you be willing to listen to it.

And you are entitled to believe as you may.

Micky Dolenz

I heard the Devil has a special place reserved in hell for non believer types.

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

There is an explanation for all of those questions you have posed there and I'm not going to go into them because firstly I'm not a theologist and secondly that will take too long and I don't have time for that, neither would you be willing to listen to it.

And you are entitled to believe as you may.

This is like playing handball against a hay stack. You just make assertions and generalisations and then say' I cant be bothered backing any of these up and 'you guys' wont listen any way"
Yawn

[-0-]

af_thefragile wrote: »

There is an explanation for all of those questions you have posed there and I'm not going to go into them because firstly I'm not a theologist and secondly that will take too long and I don't have time for that, neither would you be willing to listen to it.

And you are entitled to believe as you may.

I'm willing to listen. You just realize your view is flawed and you're unable to support it and feel uncomfortable doing so.

af_thefragile

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Disproof of a benevolent god, 2300 odd years ago, in 4 sentences:

If god is willing to prevent evil but not able, then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able but not willing, then he is malevolent.
If he is both able and willing, then whence commeth evil?
And if he is both able and willing, then why call him god?

That's just the problem of evil which you've stated there.
Many theologians and philosophers have tackled it since then.

Anyway, I'm not here to get into any argumentations. I've stopped arguing over matters regarding God and religion since I grew out of my teenage years so see ya.

Brain Stroking

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I heard the Devil has a special place reserved in hell for non believer types.

I heard there is no room in heaven these days as the place has become full of trillions and trillions of animals. Imagine every insect ever swatted in the history of time buzzing around for eternity in the fullest of health? I dont fancy taking a walk over to see Jimmy Hendrix and John Lennon headlining a gig only to be attacked by a herd of 300 billion leopards.

af_thefragile

[-0-] wrote: »

I'm willing to listen. You just realize your view is flawed and you're unable to support it and feel uncomfortable doing so.

Believe me, if I realised my views were flawed, I wouldn't be holding them.

I'm not someone who goes along with a view just because everyone else does so in a "my religion/country/friends etc. right or wrong!" way.

Ghost Buster

[-0-] wrote: »

I'm willing to listen. You just realize your view is flawed and you're unable to support it and feel uncomfortable doing so.

af_thefragile wrote: »

That's just the problem of evil which you've stated there.
Many theologians and philosophers have tackled it since then.

Anyway, I'm not here to get into any argumentations. I've stopped arguing over matters regarding God and religion since I grew out of my teenage years so see ya.

Or just stopped backing up anything you say because you are unable to do so?
(Exit strategy enacted):rolleyes:

af_thefragile

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Or just stopped backing up anything you say because you are unable to do so?
(Exit strategy enacted):rolleyes:

Stopped wasting my time.

Brain Stroking

af_thefragile wrote: »

Believe me, if I realised my views were flawed, I wouldn't be holding them.

I'm not someone who goes along with a view just because everyone else does so in a "my religion/country/friends etc. right or wrong!" way.

Then back up your "views" rather than tiptoeing around it as you are now. We arent busy, we've pulled up seats and time is on our side. Proceed with the explanation......

Ghost Buster

af_thefragile wrote: »

Stopped wasting my time.

Now thats just crap, you know it and every one following this thread knows it. You blundered onto this thread, threw out a few statements and generalisations and the very moment you were engaged with by other posters yiou countered with" I cant be bothered to explain myself" and proceeded to hold this line for several pages. You didnt waste your time but you did waste others.

endacl

af_thefragile wrote: »

Stopped wasting my time.

Bye.

af_thefragile

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Now thats just crap, you know it and every one following this thread knows it. You blundered onto this thread, threw out a few statements and generalisations and the very moment you were engaged with by other posters yiou countered with" I cant be bothered to explain myself" and proceeded to hold this line for several pages. You didnt waste your time but you did waste others.

Well, sorry for wasting your time then.

[-0-]

I wish he would have responded to this before holding his hands up and walking away.

Do you really think that a creator would create kids with disabilities, would let a mother carry a child for several months before ending it's life (and sometimes her life as well), would allow an Austrian man to do awful stuff to his daughter for 20+ years all the while ignoring her prayers for help. To say that that was just a test for her is terribly insulting. Would you say that to her face?