2nd Presidential Debate - Hempstead, New York

kryogen

[-0-] wrote: »

Obama destroyed him, and it was absolutely glorious.

I genuinely think that overall it was actually close, neither of them were outstanding for me but Romney made himself look the bigger tit and more untrustworthy in general if that makes sense.

Obama will feel great as it was a big improvement from the first debate and the momentum is now swinging back in his favour possibly, Romney accusing Obama of playing politics regarding Benghazi then doing just that and falling flat on his face made him look terrible.

Looking forward to round 3

nagilum2

This election is going to be razor, razor thin...

Brian?

MadsL wrote: »

Fox calling it a draw

Obama won so, no doubt about it.

joseph brand

When Romney was 'put wide' on the transcript from the Rose Garden, by Candy, did the audience laugh? I feel like I dreamt it.

Brian?

joseph brand wrote: »

When Romney was 'put wide' on the transcript from the Rose Garden, by Candy, did the audience laugh? I feel like I dreamt it.

Laughter and some applause. It was beautiful. Nothing like seeing a smug, smirking Romney stopped in his tracks.

kryogen

Most journalists calling it a draw or a small victory for Obama.

A victory for Obama is right for me, but not by a huge margin.

A clear win for Obama, I think. I swear, if I ever hear Romney speaking about his 5-point plan again I'll pull my hair out; he tried to force a repetition of it into most of his answers (well, his early ones, at least), and it was like watching a child trying to push a square peg into a round hole — I don't necessarily disagree with his plan, but there are contexts when discussing it is not exactly relevant. I think Romney lost a lot with his decorum and etiquette; little things like telling Candy "no" when asked to answer a question, or referring to a questioner as "you" or their question as "your question," and butting in and running long on the clock, though Obama did that too, to a lesser degree. Romney did better than I thought he would, given the style of the debate, but I still think it's a clear win for Obama.

kryogen

Brian? wrote: »

Laughter and some applause. It was beautiful. Nothing like seeing a smug, smirking Romney stopped in his tracks.

The laughter/applause was more for Obama asking Candy to say it again and speak up no?

MadsL

joseph brand wrote: »

When Romney was 'put wide' on the transcript from the Rose Garden, by Candy, did the audience laugh? I feel like I dreamt it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIMnWGrh60M

Cork boy 55

MadsL wrote: »

I strongly condemn the outrageous attack on our diplomatic facility in Benghazi, which took the lives of four Americans, including Ambassador Chris Stevens. Right now, the American people have the families of those we lost in our thoughts and prayers. They exemplified America's commitment to freedom, justice, and partnership with nations and people around the globe, and stand in stark contrast to those who callously took their lives.

I have directed my Administration to provide all necessary resources to support the security of our personnel in Libya, and to increase security at our diplomatic posts around the globe. While the United States rejects efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others, we must all unequivocally oppose the kind of senseless violence that took the lives of these public servants.

On a personal note, Chris was a courageous and exemplary representative of the United States. Throughout the Libyan revolution, he selflessly served our country and the Libyan people at our mission in Benghazi. As Ambassador in Tripoli, he has supported Libya's transition to democracy. His legacy will endure wherever human beings reach for liberty and justice. I am profoundly grateful for his service to my Administration, and deeply saddened by this loss.

The brave Americans we lost represent the extraordinary service and sacrifices that our civilians make every day around the globe. As we stand united with their families, let us now redouble our own efforts to carry their work forward.

Close Transcript

No mention of terror there or act of terror

candy lied and screwed up she should be fired

is it the job of the moderator to factcheck?

She screwed up big time her careers over .

Cavehill Red

Narrow win for Obama. Fundamentally, the biggest thing I take away from this debate is how much personal loathing there is between the candidates despite the fact that they are actually closer on more policy issues than any pair of US presidential candidates I can remember.

nagilum2

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

No mention of terror there

candy lied and screwed up she should be fired

is it the job of the moderator to factcheck?

She screwed up big time her careers over .

Whoa! If that's correct then you're right - she's never going to live that one down.

Einhard

Obama's just won re-election. You read it here first.

nagirrac

Overall thought it was fairly even but Obama won the biggest points including the critical last point. Romney set himself up beautifully for Obama's knock out punch on the 47%, total stupidity from Romney on that and the Libyan issue. Thought Obama did 200% better than the first debate and should now regain some momentum, but its going to be a nailbiter.

Duck Soup

In fairness, I thought Romney did well in listing the shortcomings and disappointments of 4 years of the Obama administration. The problem was he didn't have a damned thing to offer himself other than more tax cuts. Every time he was asked about specifics, he came up blank.

nagilum2

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Narrow win for Obama. Fundamentally, the biggest thing I take away from this debate is how much personal loathing there is between the candidates despite the fact that they are actually closer on more policy issues than any pair of US presidential candidates I can remember.

Definitely. Very very uncomfortable.

Spanish Johnny

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

No mention of terror there or act of terror

candy lied and screwed up she should be fired

is it the job of the moderator to factcheck?

She screwed up big time her careers over .

Act of Terror is missing there but the inference is there. In fairness to Romney he seemed to be arguing it literally and then got stopped by Candy.

Hazys

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

No mention of terror there or act of terror

candy lied and screwed up she should be fired

is it the job of the moderator to factcheck?

She screwed up big time her careers over .

I think the transcript posted is incorrect.

Watching NBC here and they said Obama said "America will not stand for these acts of terrorism" but the transcript wasn't released for days after and in the meantime they said it was a response to the video.

DrumSteve

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

No mention of terror there or act of terror

candy lied and screwed up she should be fired

is it the job of the moderator to factcheck?

She screwed up big time her careers over .

Hmmm, I doubt that.

It is however very heavily implied that terrorism was responsible.

Duck Soup

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

No mention of terror there or act of terror

candy lied and screwed up she should be fired

is it the job of the moderator to factcheck?

She screwed up big time her careers over .

What Obama said in the Rose Garden about the attack.

No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for.

Don't give up the day job.

dropkickrugby

nagilum2 wrote: »

Definitely. Very very uncomfortable.

how the hell is it uncomfortable when two guys who are head to head for the biggest seat in the world are duking it out? Isnt that why you watched? Did you expect them to be all buddy buddy with the amount of attack ads that are running? SHeesh....

Do you watch boxing? RUgby? Eastenders? Life is about conflict, ALL of it. I found the dislike a damn sigh more comfortable than i would have found fake fawning and pretend friendship. In fact, i now like romney more for being real and obama too now that you say that

Mjollnir

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

No mention of terror there or act of terror

candy lied and screwed up she should be fired

is it the job of the moderator to factcheck?

She screwed up big time her careers over .

Just saw the tape on TV here in CA and he quite clearly said it.

Swing, and a miss.

Hazys

Mjollnir wrote: »

Just saw the tape on TV here in CA and he quite clearly said it.

Swing, and a miss.

TBF to Corkboy55, he was quoting the transcript that was posted earlier in this tread which was inaccurate.

joseph brand

dropkickrugby wrote: »

how the hell is it uncomfortable when two guys who are head to head for the biggest seat in the world are duking it out? Isnt that why you watched? Did you expect them to be all buddy buddy with the amount of attack ads that are running? SHeesh....

Do you watch boxing? RUgby? Eastenders? Life is about conflict, ALL of it. I found the dislike a damn sigh more comfortable than i would have found fake fawning and pretend friendship. In fact, i now like romney more for being real, and obama now that you say that.

Exactly. Obama is debating against the guy who wants his job. He's not the first person who felt their job was threatened by Romney (Bain). Everybody questioned Obama's lack of energy in the last debate. He had to be more aggressive, like Romney was. So he came out fighting. Pretty much expected.

MadsL

He also said

""No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for,"

@4.15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nu6VZ9DeVc

And no, Cork boy, her career is not over. FFS.

nagilum2

Hazys wrote: »

TBF to Corkboy55, he was quoting the transcript that was posted earlier in this tread which was inaccurate.

I'm glad for the moderator that she wasn't mistaken on that. If she had been, then CorkBoy would be right - she'd never live that down.

southsiderosie

dropkickrugby wrote: »

how the hell is it uncomfortable when two guys who are head to head for the biggest seat in the world are duking it out? Isnt that why you watched? Did you expect them to be all buddy buddy with the amount of attack ads that are running? SHeesh....

Do you watch boxing? RUgby? Eastenders? Life is about conflict, ALL of it. I found the dislike a damn sigh more comfortable than i would have found fake fawning and pretend friendship. In fact, i now like romney more for being real and obama too now that you say that

Because it was undignified, and not remotely comparable to a sporting event or television show given the importance of this election.

nagilum2

dropkickrugby wrote: »

how the hell is it uncomfortable when two guys who are head to head for the biggest seat in the world are duking it out? Isnt that why you watched? Did you expect them to be all buddy buddy with the amount of attack ads that are running? SHeesh....

Do you watch boxing? RUgby? Eastenders? Life is about conflict, ALL of it. I found the dislike a damn sigh more comfortable than i would have found fake fawning and pretend friendship. In fact, i now like romney more for being real and obama too now that you say that

Well, it's a fair question, and I suppose what made me uncomfortable was the level of personal disdain for each other.

But you're right - I'd rather them fight for it, than not.

EDIT: Southsiderosie said it more strongly and better than I did. It just seemed to me that the personal "streetfight approach" put less focus on the substance than on the personal battle.

Mjollnir

southsiderosie wrote: »

Because it was undignified, and not remotely comparable to a sporting event or television show given the importance of this election.

Measured, intellectual discourse, couched in facts, will not work against such a mendacious liar like Romney. Pity, but that's the way it is. I'm rather disappointed that Obama didn't simply come out and say, "You're lying" at points.

What your missing is pretty much limited to HS forensics/debate classes and universities.

Duck Soup

Quick question for anyone that cares to answer it. Does this stop Romney's advance in the polls? Fail to stop Romney's momentum in the polls? Turns the tide and starts to bring support back to Obama?

nagilum2

Duck Soup wrote: »

Quick question for anyone that cares to answer it. Does this stop Romney's advance in the polls? Fail to stop Romney's momentum in the polls? Turns the tide and starts to bring support back to Obama?

I think it probably stops it right where it is - roughly a dead heat.

nagilum2

CNN Focus group on the debate:
15 say neither. 14 say obama. 6 romney

As an aside, really CNN? A 35 person focus group?

I can only gather that the high number of neither is totally indicative of the tone that turned off a lot of them.

Ozymandius2011

The Frank Luntz focus group on Fox is very hostile to Obama.

gilmour

Fox News

Duck Soup

Waiting for the first snap polls to start coming in. My gut is that Obama won it, not by the same margin Romney won the first debate, but pretty decisively.

Ozymandius2011

gilmour wrote: »

Fox News

The most watched US Satellite news network.

nagilum2

southsiderosie wrote: »

Because it was undignified, and not remotely comparable to a sporting event or television show given the importance of this election.

Here's the quote from 60 Minutes Scott Pelley:

“We have never seen anything like that in presidential history,” CBS News anchor Scott Pelley said following the debate. “They turned every question from the audience into an attack on the other.”

Pelley called it the “most rancorous presidential debate ever.”

nagilum2

Duck Soup wrote: »

Waiting for the first snap polls to start coming in. My gut is that Obama won it, not by the same margin Romney won the first debate, but pretty decisively.

My pre-result guess is that the polls say Obama won the debate, roughly 40-30 or maybe 40-35, with 25-30% undecided. A solid win, but not a slam dunk win.

Mjollnir

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

The Frank Luntz focus group on Fox is very hostile to Obama.

Me. Over. Knock. Feather. Could. With. A. You.

gilmour

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

The most watched US Satellite news network.

Theres a good reason for that, its comedy

southsiderosie

Mjollnir wrote: »

Measured, intellectual discourse, couched in facts, will not work against such a mendacious liar like Romney. Pity, but that's the way it is. I'm rather disappointed that Obama didn't simply come out and say, "You're lying" at points.

What your missing is pretty much limited to HS forensics/debate classes and universities.

No, it is the most uncivil presidential debate I've seen, ever. While normally they try to get good zingers in, this was malicious. To another poster's earlier point, I don't think Mitt Romney is used to being told what to do, having been a chief executive for so long (as he reminded us constantly).

Duck Soup

nagilum2 wrote: »

My pre-result guess is that the polls say Obama won the debate, roughly 40-30 or maybe 40-35, with 25-30% undecided. A solid win, but not a slam dunk win.

I think you're right. But I'd also hazard a guess that it will bring back some of the waverers on Obama and firm up his support. This was always going to be a tight election, but Obama did himself a major favour tonight by giving people a reason to feel positive about voting for him.

Romney's ballsing up the what-the-President-said-in-the-Rose-Garden exchange and Obama's "My pension's not as big as yours, governor" quip were the most memorable moments of the night for me.

Mjollnir

southsiderosie wrote: »

No, it is the most uncivil presidential debate I've seen, ever. While normally they try to get good zingers in, this was malicious. To another poster's earlier point, I don't think Mitt Romney is used to being told what to do, having been a chief executive for so long (as he reminded us constantly).

Well, yes, that's pretty much it.

Obama tried the old university debate style in the first debate. It doesn't work with adult children who are used to getting their way, like Romney, and who run all over and through moderators.

Incidentally, Romney tied that same bullfeces again tonight that he used in the first 'debate', early on, when he said something like, "Well he got to answer last so I get to answer now" or some such nonsense.

I don't necessarily like it, but you have to punch bullies, full fist, in the mouth.

That's just the way of the world.

nagilum2

nagilum2 wrote: »

My pre-result guess is that the polls say Obama won the debate, roughly 40-30 or maybe 40-35, with 25-30% undecided. A solid win, but not a slam dunk win.

Official CNN Results - Obama 46, Romney 39.

Official CBS Poll - Obama 37, Romney 30

Both roughly in line with what I expected.

Duck Soup

CBS Snap Poll also in with a win for Obama.

Obama 37%, Romney 30%.

Duck Soup

Some of the initial reactions. From the NYT live blog:

The conservative columnist George Will said, “Barack Obama not only gained ground that he had lost, he cauterized some wounds that he inflicted on himself by seeming too distant and disengaged.”

On CNN, the longtime analyst David Gergen said “the night goes to Barack Obama.”

On MSNBC, the Rev. Al Sharpton credited Mr. Obama with his “best performance of his career as a debater.” “Tonight Mitt Romney was up against a different man,” said the MSNBC host Rachel Maddow, who added that “Democrats will be thrilled.”

Ozymandius2011

Obama picked up 7 votes from the Ohio focus group and 5 for Romney. 15 of them said Obama did better and 6 (or maybe 8) for Romney.

The Fox focus group hostile to Obama is from Nevada if that's relevant.

joseph brand

Duck Soup wrote: »

Quick question for anyone that cares to answer it. Does this stop Romney's advance in the polls? Fail to stop Romney's momentum in the polls? Turns the tide and starts to bring support back to Obama?

On the back of the Biden vs Ryan debate, it can't be good for the Romney Ryan camp.

Where Romney stood out tonight:
1. "I wanna make us more energy independent, with a pipeline from Canada" Importing fuel is a no no.

2. "Marriage will end gun violence"
Guns don't kill, children from single parent families kill.

Is Romney's 20% tax cut, across the board, just a ploy to get votes? I'd imagine the promise of a tax cut to everyone, would appeal to, . . . .everyone? Especially since he and Ryan have been light on details and specifics again!

I hope someone counts how many times Romney mentions the words 'jobs and 'small businesses'. It's a bit repetitive.

Neither candidate addressed the fact that when consumers have disposable income, they spend it, which helps businesses by increasing demand. Demand which forces those 'job creators' to hire employees. Obviously it's preferable if the businesses aren't shipped overseas.

The question from Crowley to the candidates: How do we bring back manufacturing jobs from China? Romney says by making sure people play fair and to encourage entrepreneurs. Obama says "some jobs aren't gonna come back" because they're low-wage, low-skill jobs.

Just one instance where Obama showed how he's based in reality. Those jobs are gone. In much the same way, Europe isn't going to try to compete with the garment industry in Bangladesh.

Although Romney was right, the Chinese do steal technologies. Intel's FAB 24 in Leixlip is building their latest architecture while their FAB in China builds slightly older technologies, due to intellectual theft. China doesn't recognise copyright. With 1.3 Billion + population, they can do whatever they like. Unfortunately.

Mjollnir

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Obama picked up 7 votes from the Ohio focus group and 5 for Romney. 15 of them said Obama did better and 6 (or maybe 8) for Romney.

The Fox focus group hostile to Obama is from Nevada if that's relevant.

If you leave either Reno or Las Vegas, in any direction, Nevada gets bible-thumpy, cousin-humpy REALLY fast.

nagilum2

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Obama picked up 7 votes from the Ohio focus group and 5 for Romney. 15 of them said Obama did better and 6 (or maybe 8) for Romney.

The Fox focus group hostile to Obama is from Nevada if that's relevant.

Tough to draw any real policy conclusions from a Fox focus group, but if it's an indicator then I'm not surprised that it's Nevada. This is one of the reasons I think Obama should concentrate all his energy on holding Ohio and Iowa. Nevada doesn't play as well for him economically as I think it has one of the highest unemployment rates in the US right now.