The National Team. How about a radical change - only home based players

joker77

I'd like to open this up for debate.

Why not do something different?

Qualification this time around is going to be very difficult. And the future isn't looking any brighter.

This might generate a bit of badly needed interest in our national league.

Until football is improved at a grass roots level in this country, achieving anything on a national stage is a pipe dream.

Aenaes

So people don't like Ireland playing badly and Trap ignoring our better younger players.

The solution to this is to sack Trap and play LoI players?

joker77

Aenaes wrote: »

So people don't like Ireland playing badly and Trap ignoring our better younger players.

The solution to this is to sack Trap and play LoI players?

Perhaps look up the word debate.

Liam O

joker77 wrote: »

Perhaps look up the word debate.

Maybe you should actually?

Gringo180

The FAI have badly neglected the domestic game and now there paying the price.

Radical change's must happen for this country to start producing the quality we did in the past.

Trap's yearly salary is 15 times more than what the winner of the LOI get :eek:

joker77

Liam O wrote: »

Maybe you should actually?

Enlighten me so, what viewpoint was presented in the previous post?

Peppa Pig

joker77 wrote: »

This might generate a bit of badly needed interest in our national league.
Until football is improved at a grass roots level in this country, achieving anything on a national stage is a pipe dream.

Agree with the second point but not the first. How many of those in the Aviva last Friday have ever been to a LOI match, never mind be a regular? Unless the glamorous English based players are there the crowds would go down to under 10k.

On the second point, having supporters actually go to domestic games (at all levels) would be the biggest boost the grass roots and national game could get.

I'd fancy the LOI against the Faroes, but Germany, Sweden and Austria? Turkey shoots

joker77

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Agree with the second point but not the first. How many of those in the Aviva last Friday have ever been to a LOI match, never mind be a regular? Unless the glamorous English based players are there the crowds would go down to under 10k.

On the second point, having supporters actually go to domestic games (at all levels) would be the biggest boost the grass roots and national game could get.

I'd fancy the LOI against the Faroes, but Germany, Sweden and Austria? Turkey shoots

I'm not so sure though that the attendances would drop. People want to see passion, and they're not seeing it at the moment.

I reckon this is something the grassroots LOI fans (most of whom don't go to watch the national team as far as I can tell) would get behind.

joker77

Yes, obviously Germany should beat a LOI selection. But worse than 6-1? I'm not convinced.

Peppa Pig

I would have thought there is a high proportion of LOI fans go to national games

joker77

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I would have thought there is a high proportion of LOI fans go to national games

As I say - not as far as I can tell. My (admittedly anecdotal) evidence would be that the people who go to watch LOI games in general do not go to watch the national team.

LuckyLloyd

joker77 wrote: »

Perhaps look up the word debate.

A LOI squad would perform to a level in the Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Luxembourg ball park - i.e. 150th in the world or worse. Currently we have a team ~30th in the world.

I'm not sure that scuttling the current Irish setup for semi professional no hopers has any merit whatsoever. It would be bad financially, bad for national pride, and unfair to players nowhere near capable of competing at that level.

joker77

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A LOI squad would perform to a level in the Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Luxembourg ball park - i.e. 150th in the world or worse. Currently we have a team ~30th in the world.

I'm not sure that scuttling the current Irish setup for semi professional no hopers has any merit whatsoever. It would be bad financially, bad for national pride, and unfair to players nowhere near capable of competing at that level.

I'll disregard your opinion based on the part in bold.

You sir, are a jackass.

Fr Tod Umptious

joker77 wrote: »

I'd like to open this up for debate.

Why not do something different?

Qualification this time around is going to be very difficult. And the future isn't looking any brighter.

This might generate a bit of badly needed interest in our national league.

Until football is improved at a grass roots level in this country, achieving anything on a national stage is a pipe dream.

And just ignore the Irish born guys who are plying their trade in England and elsewhere ?
No thanks

GLaDOS

The players just aren't there in the league, would fail miserably.

VinylJunkie

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I would have thought there is a high proportion of LOI fans go to national games

No I go to most Shelbourne games home and away but wouldn't be caught dead in the Aviva, in fact I wouldn't be caught dead in an Ireland jersey. I absolutely despise the FAI, not to mention the 'best fans in the world'.

Peppa Pig

joker77 wrote: »

I'll disregard your opinion based on the part in bold.

You sir, are a jackass.

But you want to send LOI part timers out to play in Germany against one of the world's top teams representing Ireland :rolleyes:

joker77

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And just ignore the Irish born guys who are plying their trade in England and elsewhere ?
No thanks

It's about building up the grass roots. It's not really about ignoring Irish born players playing in England, it's about trying to develop football in this country so we can compete better on an international stage.

What's your reason for the No Thanks?

Peppa Pig

VinylJunkie wrote: »

No I go to most Shelbourne games home and away but wouldn't be caught dead in the Aviva, in fact I wouldn't be caught dead in an Ireland jersey. I absolutely despise the FAI, not to mention the 'best fans in the world'.

I go to both - so now we have 50% attendance

VinylJunkie

The national side will not improve until the FAI start paying attention to grass roots and our own league instead of letting English clubs develop young Irish players.

CSF

Why are people throwing partimers in there, ignorantly, as if almost all the players wouldn't be full-timers

joker77

CSF wrote: »

Why are people throwing partimers in there, ignorantly, as if almost all the players wouldn't be full-timers

You've answered your own question there.

LuckyLloyd

joker77 wrote: »

I'll disregard your opinion based on the part in bold.

You sir, are a jackass.

They would be no hopers at that level for sure. The performance of LOI Teams in the early stages of European Club competitions and debacles involving LOI Select XI's speak to that.

And I attend UCD games and enjoy them. It's not a knock to suggest that a footballer has his level. You have to be in the top 1% of people who play football in some form to be good enough to play in the LOI. It's just that there is a giant chasm from there to International ball.

Disregard sensible opinions all you like...

joker77

Peppa Pig wrote: »

But you want to send LOI part timers out to play in Germany against one of the world's top teams representing Ireland :rolleyes:

They get beat. The current crop of pros get beat. What's the major difference?

CSF

joker77 wrote: »

You've answered your own question there.

How?

VinylJunkie

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I go to both - so now we have 50% attendance

How can you sit there and not cringe at the folk who go to Ireland games? A stadium full of barstoolers and band wagon jumper. They can stick their 'fields of athenry' up their holes.

joker77

CSF wrote: »

How?

Ignorance.

joker77

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They would be no hopers at that level for sure. The performance of LOI Teams in the early stages of European Club competitions and debacles involving LOI Select XI's speak to that.

And I attend UCD games and enjoy them. It's not a knock to suggest that a footballer has his level. You have to be in the top 1% of people who play football in some form to be good enough to play in the LOI. It's just that there is a giant chasm from there to International ball.

Disregard sensible opinions all you like...

Ok I'll entertain you.

Kevin Doyle, Shane Long - no hopers?

CSF

To be honest, long term this idea would leave our national team in better shape. I couldn't see many being able to stick out the short and medium term though.

Boskowski

joker77 wrote: »

Yes, obviously Germany should beat a LOI selection. But worse than 6-1? I'm not convinced.

I must admit I'm watching loi only occasionally and but for two occasions on telly. From what I've seen any German 2.Bundesliga team would beat them 6:1. Possibly top teams in the Regionalliga too.
Since it would be a 'best of' loi maybe a little better.

Modern football is essentially all about 'at what pace do you still posess 'skills''. Sorry I really think it would be that bad.

kincsem

As it is we can compete internationally and occasionally qualify for a Euros or World Cup. If we restricted the squad to League Of Ireland players we would never qualify. That would reduce interest in the international team to nothing, and harm the home game.
But the GAA would be happy.

LuckyLloyd

VinylJunkie wrote: »

The national side will not improve until the FAI start paying attention to grass roots and our own league instead of letting English clubs develop young Irish players.

The LOI Clubs are culpable in this. Shamrock Rovers have not invested substantially in their youth setup since their Europa League windfall. The Senior Clubs do little or nothing to link with the elite level youth game. The LOI Clubs are way behind when it comes to the best 12 - 16 year old kids playing ball in this country.

The FAI have invested in better coaches, initiatives like the emerging talent program etc.

The LOI contingent are ready to pile on in full force in this thread, I can smell it. And as always, it doesn't smell good.

Fr Tod Umptious

joker77 wrote: »

It's about building up the grass roots. It's not really about ignoring Irish born players playing in England, it's about trying to develop football in this country so we can compete better on an international stage.

What's your reason for the No Thanks?

How is it ' not really about ignoring Irish born players playing in England' ?

I though my post was quite explanatory, but it seems not so here we go again

'No thanks, I do not wish to see a ROI team consisting only of home based players, as it denies Irish born players who play their club football in other leagues the opportunity to play for their country'

premierstone

joker77 wrote: »

Ok I'll entertain you.

Kevin Doyle, Shane Long - no hopers?

lol Shane Long played one LOI game, how many caps would he have amassed in that timeframe under your masterplan.

LuckyLloyd

joker77 wrote: »

Ok I'll entertain you.

Kevin Doyle, Shane Long - no hopers?

Yes, a minute percentage of players that end up in the LOI over the age of 18 happen to be good enough for top level professional football. There will always be an error rate in the scouting of young players; players who take up the game a little later; don't push for a move to England for family / educational reasons, etc.

CSF

How about an even more radical change and Irish people actually get involved in football in this country, by getting involved in football at both schoolboy and senior level in this country, instead of expecting the FAI and Trappatoni to make everything happen magically for them?

Gringo180

VinylJunkie wrote: »

No I go to most Shelbourne games home and away but wouldn't be caught dead in the Aviva, in fact I wouldn't be caught dead in an Ireland jersey. I absolutely despise the FAI, not to mention the 'best fans in the world'.

Do you even support the Irish team?

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

How about an even more radical change and Irish people actually get involved in football in this country, by getting involved in football at both schoolboy and senior level in this country, instead of expecting the FAI and Trappatoni to make everything happen magically for them?

How about LOI Clubs and fans of those clubs start putting effort into their youth setups and try to get the best young players into their setup at a young age and sell them an alternative path to top level professional football? The FAI has created an U19 League and an U17 League is coming on stream soon enough. It's up to the clubs to prioritise this stuff. They have their part to play.

My club make an effort to scoop up talented players and have a relationship. Last week our U19's played Cherry Orchard U16s and after the game offered an invitation to contact UCD at the end of next season if an English club hasn't come through for any of them. That's making some effort. Can all LOI teams say they do the same?

CSF

Gringo180 wrote: »

Do you even support the Irish team?

Do you even support an Irish team?

Jayob10

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes, a minute percentage of players that end up in the LOI over the age of 18 happen to be good enough for top level professional football. There will always be an error rate in the scouting of young players; players who take up the game a little later; don't push for a move to England for family / educational reasons, etc.

The level of expertise in terms of coaching and development and quality of facilities needs to undergo a revolution before we will see any interest in the LOI en mass.

Until that happens the fate of the Irish national team is in the hands of English clubs who are entrusted with the responsibility to develop our players from 14-15+

This is the reality.

As it stands, a top class player will never come from the league of Ireland. Sure you will have the odd Doyle, Long or McClean making it but these late bloomers will always plateau in terms of overall development. Their ceiling for development is alot lower and therefore they will never be in the very top bracket of premier league players.

Something radical is needed in domestic irish football. The first step should be to improve facilities across the board (where the finance will come from i'll never know). We need far tighter governance of our clubs which would ideally come centrally from the FAI (a competent version), but on the flipside we need far greater funding for coaching, facilities and marketing.

The wealth needs to be redistributed throughout the league so to speak, and we may be in the doldrums for many years at senior level, but paying that price will ensure a far more stable base to work from.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How about LOI Clubs and fans of those clubs start putting effort into their youth setups and try to get the best young players into their setup at a young age and sell them an alternative path to top level professional football? The FAI has created an U19 League and an U17 League is coming on stream soon enough. It's up to the clubs to prioritise this stuff. They have their part to play.

My club make an effort to scoop up talented players and have a relationship. Last week our U19's played Cherry Orchard U16s and after the game offered an invitation to contact UCD at the end of next season if an English club hasn't come through for any of them. That's making some effort. Can all LOI teams say they do the same?

Em yes, that's generally how players get introduced to the league. Not all clubs have UCD's resources. I mean our under 19s teams are hardly not trying to get the best players on board, it's just fairly difficult when the likes of Kevins and Home Farm have slaved to ship off nearly anything with 2 functional legs to the UK to be chewed up and spat out.

VinylJunkie

Gringo180 wrote: »

Do you even support the Irish team?

Yea I'm a Shels season ticket holder, I've already said that if you read my posts in this thread.

CSF

Jayob10 wrote: »

The level of expertise in terms of coaching and development and quality of facilities needs to undergo a revolution before we will see any interest in the LOI en mass.

Until that happens the fate of the Irish national team is in the hands of English clubs who are entrusted with the responsibility to develop our players from 14-15+

This is the reality.

As it stands, a top class player will never come from the league of Ireland. Sure you will have the odd Doyle, Long or McClean making it but these late bloomers will always plateau in terms of overall development. Their ceiling for development is alot lower and therefore they will never be in the very top bracket of premier league players.

Something radical is needed in domestic irish football. The first step should be to improve facilities across the board (where the finance will come from i'll never know). We need far tighter governance of our clubs which would ideally come centrally from the FAI (a competent version), but on the flipside we need far greater funding for coaching, facilities and marketing.

The wealth needs to be redistributed throughout the league so to speak, and we may be in the doldrums for many years at senior level, but paying that price will ensure a far more stable base to work from.

Alternatively people could just stop being lazy.

Amirani

Boskowski wrote: »

I must admit I'm watching loi only occasionally and but for two occasions on telly. From what I've seen any German 2.Bundesliga team would beat them 6:1. Possibly top teams in the Regionalliga too.
Since it would be a 'best of' loi maybe a little better.

Modern football is essentially all about 'at what pace do you still posess 'skills''. Sorry I really think it would be that bad.

How many 2.Bundesliga or Regionalliga teams have qualified for the group stages of the Europa league? Pats and Bohs have had good results against Hertha and Kaiserslautern respectively in the past few years, both good top-tier teams at the time.

I disagree with the OP's suggestion, but to suggest any team in 2.Bundesliga and some teams in the Regional leagues would beat LOI teams 6-1 is ignorant.

briany

I agree that a grassroots level change is needed but IMO that change is not to stick semi professionals in the national side. That would accomplish almost nothing as far as I can see but to further damage the team's reputation and ranking. It's moot really when the richest league in the world is next door. Would young, promising players really be saying to themselves - "Well, I really want to play for Ireland one day so I won't accept Arsenal's offer to join their youth academy, with all the benefits it could offer to my game, not to mention my finances if I do well. I'll just stay at Bray Wanderers."?

Jayob10

CSF wrote: »

Alternatively people could just stop being lazy.

i'm a regular LOI match goer by the way, but you need to be realistic.

People are not going to just make a conscious decision to go and watch games. Expecting otherwise and you are in dreamland.

Comparisons with the GAA are fair, marketing is excellent with the GAA. The LOI is not marketed at all.

You need to speculate to accumulate in order to be very successful, and speculating constituted spending ridiculous sums on players wages for alot of LOI clubs, rather than investing in proper infrastructure.

Our own club in the midlands are now running on a miniscule budget for LOI club, we are giving our best under 17 and 19 players the chance to play first team football and we are building from there. The downside of this is that you will take some beatings along the way for blooding so many at the same time.

The upside is you are developing your own local talent rather than spending hefty wages (relatively speaking) for a journeyman.

A step in the right direction would be to ensure this young local talent has been nurtured with top class coaching so they are capable of making the step into the first team.

This is what needs to be prioritised in every club in the country. Its the most basic need to build from.

Pro. F

joker77 wrote: »

Ok I'll entertain you.

Kevin Doyle, Shane Long - no hopers?

Neither would be eligible for the national team under your "only home based players" proposal.

Soups123

joker77 wrote: »

Ok I'll entertain you.

Kevin Doyle, Shane Long - no hopers?

But under your logic are you not ruling these players out, lets say they develop in Ireland, are top quality go abroad to further there career and make some money, now they are not eligible for your Ireland Team.

A restriction on the national team like this wont solve the problems within the LOI.

Passion isnt the only thing as a fan I want to see, its part of it but it only gets you a little bit of the way

Jayob10

you simply need a functioning somewhat thriving league before you could even comprehend taking the drastic step in only choosing the home based players.

Players need more of an incentive to stay in ireland, more than just playing international football.

When the league is competitive relatively speaking with European counterparts, then maybe you could look at arranging some friendly internationals on a more regular basis where only domestic players are considered ala Brazil, Argentina (both of whom regularly play games and only choose home based talent).

But this is only done as a means to see who can mix it with the big boys should they be called upon.

Ideally we would hold 3-5 "B" internationals a year, casting our net far and wide to get a look at many players who are eligible, be it championship players, granny rule additions and LOI players. We would need a manager with a genuine enthusiasm, passion and get up and go to see what is out there though, this is not the man thats in place now thats for sure.

Gringo180

CSF wrote: »

Do you even support an Irish team?

No last time I was at a LOI game was about 5 years ago, only went to 1 game ever, could never really grow an attachment to any club over here.

eagle eye

A pretty apt username for somebody starting this thread.:D