The National Team. How about a radical change - only home based players

Gringo180

VinylJunkie wrote: »

Yea I'm a Shels season ticket holder, I've already said that if you read my posts in this thread.

No I meant the national team, would you support them?

Just asking because it baffles me the amount of LOI fans that would want there own national team to lose just because of the FAI.

dfx-

CSF wrote: »

To be honest, long term this idea would leave our national team in better shape. I couldn't see many being able to stick out the short and medium term though.

It would at least reflect the status of football in the country.

I'm familiar with football in Ireland, yet I have no idea who some of these players are who are representing Ireland in the past few years or where their natural position is or who their club is. Could your average Bavarian or even Bulgarian say that about their team?

Andrews
Douglas
Gibson
Henderson
St ledger
Green
Best
O'Dea

I remember Douglas in some games coming on as sub and finally asking the person beside me...just who the hell is he?:eek:

Gringo180

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The LOI Clubs are culpable in this. Shamrock Rovers have not invested substantially in their youth setup since their Europa League windfall. The Senior Clubs do little or nothing to link with the elite level youth game. The LOI Clubs are way behind when it comes to the best 12 - 16 year old kids playing ball in this country.

The FAI have invested in better coaches, initiatives like the emerging talent program etc.

The LOI contingent are ready to pile on in full force in this thread, I can smell it. And as always, it doesn't smell good.

I think your been a bit harsh on Rovers to be fair but I agree where your coming from. If you look at the Rovers website you will see loads of info on the youth teams, player profiles, fixtures, results etc. then you go and have a look at say the likes of St Pats website and theres not a single bit of info on there website about there youth team it just smacks of a club not giving a crap about there future.

GavRedKing

joker77 wrote: »

Yes, obviously Germany should beat a LOI selection. But worse than 6-1? I'm not convinced.

Really?

You think a LoI XI wouldnt get trounced by Germany?

Really?

kitakyushu

IIRC before switching to the AFC (and because of the huge geographical distance) Australia used to have a largely domestic "qualifying" squad to play the weak opposition in OCEANIA and then they would draft in their better players in Europe for play-offs and finals games.

I'm not saying Ireland should do the same but it might be interesting in theory if we had a standard good enough to then give games vs the bottom seeds to LOI selections. Tho considering our senior squad make hard work of beating some of these so-called 'minnows' I have my doubt that a LOI selection would even pick up 3 points.

dfx-

GavRedKing wrote: »

Really?

You think a LoI XI wouldnt get trounced by Germany?

Really?

Don't think he's saying that.

LuckyLloyd

kitakyushu wrote: »

IIRC before switching to the AFC (and because of the huge geographical distance) Australia used to have a largely domestic "qualifying" squad to play the weak opposition in OCEANIA and then they would draft in their better players in Europe for play-offs and finals games.

I'm not saying Ireland should do the same but it might be interesting in theory if we had a standard good enough to then give games vs the bottom seeds to LOI selections. Tho considering our senior squad make hard work of beating some of these so-called 'minnows' I have my doubt that a LOI selection would even pick up 3 points.

A LOI eleven would pick up points against who exactly? They'd be up against it playing Andorra imo.

GavRedKing

kitakyushu wrote: »

IIRC before switching to the AFC (and because of the huge geographical distance) Australia used to have a largely domestic "qualifying" squad to play the weak opposition in OCEANIA and then they would draft in their better players in Europe for play-offs and finals games.

I'm not saying Ireland should do the same but it might be interesting in theory if we had a standard good enough to then give games vs the bottom seeds to LOI selections. Tho considering our senior squad make hard work of beating some of these so-called 'minnows' I have my doubt that a LOI selection would even pick up 3 points.

Problem with that is been in Europe there isnt as many weak teams like Australia play.

On paper teams like the Kazaks and Faroes are minnows but they're improving.

Trap wont call up any LoI in his tenure and remains to be seen if a future manager would call them up.

Maybe with the Euro's allowing more teams to qualify but until the quality as a whole improves then not many will be called up bit there is case to be made for it.

GavRedKing

dfx- wrote: »

Don't think he's saying that.

He said hes not convinced a LoI XI wouldnt get beat 6-1.

Thats a mental statement. Not taking away from the level of the LoI but it is miles off taking to the pitch against this current Germany side and not expecting a similar result or worse.

Backstreet Moyes

So your suggesting telling players if they move abroad they cant represent your country i dont even know if they would leave that happen in North Korea.

Football is a short career so players who move abroad to earn alot more money for their families should be punished by being denied the chance to play for their Country.

Football is a job and even if your dictatorship idea was enforced people are going to choose to earn more money for their family.

You are obviously blind by your love of the league if you think a team from the league wouldnt have got beat at least 6-1. Was it not last season a LOI select lost 7-1 in a friendly to a United makeshift side looking to get match fitness. But you think we would have not lost at least 6-1 to the 2nd best team in the World thats just blind.

How refusing players to go use top class facilities abroad instead of using worse facilities here is going to improve them i dont know. Also not to mention working with less qualified coaches.

joker77

Pro. F wrote: »

Neither would be eligible for the national team under your "only home based players" proposal.

My point was about the standard of players.

dfx-

Beaten worse than 6-1 is what he said. I don't think he said anywhere that the LOI team wouldn't be miles off as well as this current Irish team clearly are.

People using the LOI select XI. :pac: That's not even made up from the top players in the LOI who are playing in Europe at the time. It's a selection from the mid-table teams.

joker77

eagle eye wrote: »

A pretty apt username for somebody starting this thread.:D

eagle eye.

Indeed - you are - very insightful. In all my years here I've never heard that before.

Maybe you should be called 'original and insightful eagle eye'

VinylJunkie

Gringo180 wrote: »

No I meant the national team, would you support them?

Just asking because it baffles me the amount of LOI fans that would want there own national team to lose just because of the FAI.

I never said I want them to lose, to be honest I don't care if they win lose or draw.

There was at least 100 Germans in Tolka park on Friday, nice folk who just love football doesn't matter what the standard is. Sure I seen 4 or 5 of them buying jerseys in the shop. Meanwhile the lazy Irish barstooler is cumfy sitting there with his ****e quality beer passing judgement on why our national team is ****e yet not coming up with one solution.

latenia

I think a ban on under-17s signing for foreign clubs and establishing 3 or 4 regional centres of excellence would help both the LOI and national team. The clubs could then have their pick of the graduates on a draft basis and a big chunk of future transfer fees could be put back into the game.

ArmaniJeanss

latenia wrote: »

I think a ban on under-17s signing for foreign clubs and establishing 3 or 4 regional centres of excellence would help both the LOI and national team. The clubs could then have their pick of the graduates on a draft basis and a big chunk of future transfer fees could be put back into the game.

How do you propose to stop a 16 year old signing for a UK club? Imprisonment?

latenia

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

How do you propose to stop a 16 year old signing for a UK club? Imprisonment?

I don't think it would be difficult to do if they got UEFA on board-they are officially children until they're 18 remember. More important would be making it more attractive to stay here by having 1st rate facilities and coaches. Too many teenagers are going over to half-assed clubs just because they're in England then end up coming home rejected and disillusioned before their 20th birthday with their education and social lives badly disrupted.

Paz-CCFC

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Agree with the second point but not the first. How many of those in the Aviva last Friday have ever been to a LOI match, never mind be a regular? Unless the glamorous English based players are there the crowds would go down to under 10k.

What glamorous English-based players currently play for the team? Maybe ten years ago, you could've said the likes of Roy Keane, Robbie Keane, Damien Duff etc., but none of the lads now could be seen as glamorous. Not saying that they're not better than players in the LoI, but nowhere near the level as some of the stars in the not to distant past. Yet we still have very healthy attendances.

I'd fancy the LOI against the Faroes, but Germany, Sweden and Austria? Turkey shoots

I wouldn't fancy the current Irish team against Germany, Sweden and Austria either. Oh, and in recent times, LoI clubs have knocked out Swedish clubs who had internationals in their teams. And Irish clubs have put in a good account of themselves against top tier German clubs. Not that I think the LoI players are all better, mind.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How about LOI Clubs and fans of those clubs start putting effort into their youth setups and try to get the best young players into their setup at a young age and sell them an alternative path to top level professional football? The FAI has created an U19 League and an U17 League is coming on stream soon enough. It's up to the clubs to prioritise this stuff. They have their part to play.

Unless your club is from Dublin or Bray, it's very difficult to build a youth setup (I'm not saying it's easy for them, but it's easier, travel costs being a big issue). Cork City FC had an Under 17 team playing in the Cork league for years, but they had to put an end to it due to opposition from many other clubs involved in the league. If we tried to build a youth structure down to young kids, the schoolboy clubs would go mental.

We look likely to enter a team in the U17 league, but it'll be very costly. Take away the wages, and cost of our first team is more or less the same as the cost of our U19s and what our U17s would be. No doubt it would benefit us in the long term, but if we don't have the money now to implement it, there's little we can do (I think we actually will enter an U17, but it won't be easy to raise the money).


On the point itself, I wouldn't agree with making the national team exclusive to players playing in Ireland. However, I do think that a senior friendly or two every year should be set aside for League of Ireland based players. Perhaps play against other national teams with a similar mind, national teams of leagues in and around where Ireland sit in the UEFA co-efficients, even nationals teams of leagues with more popularity like Scotland, Norway, Sweden etc. I think that the Irish lads would perform better than many would expect them.

ArmaniJeanss

latenia wrote: »

I don't think it would be difficult to do if they got UEFA on board-they are officially children until they're 18 remember. More important would be making it more attractive to stay here by having 1st rate facilities and coaches. Too many teenagers are going over to half-assed clubs just because they're in England then end up coming home rejected and disillusioned before their 20th birthday with their education and social lives badly disrupted.

Expecting UEFA to come up with a rule change to cater for something which appears to be just an Ireland problem is a bit optimistic I think. But you are right in that it would need UEFA (and EU) agreement.

Re the under 18 thing, despite not officially an adult you are legally old enough to work at 15 so I don't see how you could legally stop someone working at their chosen profession in another country.

bohsman

Boskowski wrote: »

I must admit I'm watching loi only occasionally and but for two occasions on telly. From what I've seen any German 2.Bundesliga team would beat them 6:1. Possibly top teams in the Regionalliga too.
Since it would be a 'best of' loi maybe a little better.

Modern football is essentially all about 'at what pace do you still posess 'skills''. Sorry I really think it would be that bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4hd0uK0bCI

latenia

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Expecting UEFA to come up with a rule change to cater for something which appears to be just an Ireland problem is a bit optimistic I think.

It's not exactly the same situation but it is related and some of the remedies might be the same but the English national team is showing the effects of having an all-consuming monster like the the EPL on their own soil. There were some interesting stats in this article about their player pool.

... from the opening weekend of the season, when there were only 93 players eligible for England ... Of those, only 30 played for teams who finished in the top 10 last season.

When this clash between leagues, national teams and the free market starts to seriously affect a big hitter like England we're likely to see some changes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/sep/10/england-roy-hodgson-beyond-premier-league?INTCMP=SRCH

Captain Havoc

I don't think the idea would work, I can't imagine a player giving up the opportunity to earn big bucks in England in order to represent Ireland. You might get some older players coming back to play but that would be about it.

The pace in the LOI compared to the Championship is way different. I do believe that an LOI team with proper coaching could step up a level and be competitive in Europe, as in occasionally qualifying for group stages. Is it any coincidence that the O'Neill, Cooke and Baraclough all came from UK clubs? I do believe the standard in the league has dropped in the last few years and Rovers getting into the Europa league was more of a blip than a sign of progression. There have been some heroic losses in the past but losses none the less, although it was very good to see the teams being competitive against top opposition.

Somebody mentioned promotion earlier on. The FAI have made good strides on this getting RTE to show live games and an hour long highlights show. Over exposure wouldn't do any good to be fair. The clubs themselves are letting themselves down on this note. I was in Bray during the summer and I saw lamppost banners encouraging people to go to the Carlisle grounds, a bit more of this is needed. There are lots of cheap ways to promote a local club. For example, perhaps Shamrock Rovers could get Seat to stump up the cost of 2,000 car stickers with and put them on the seats of Tallaght, then hopefully a decent number of those would make it to cars and you have exposure. You have empty seats at every match, go to schools and give away tickets to students, get them hooked while they are young. Teams could get pom-pom girls or some other form of entertainment for half-time instead of just the local U-10's team.

Young players are getting sucked up by English clubs all the time and that's going to continue, they have mega resources which LOI teams will never compete with. Unless the standard of the league improves, international quality players are not going to stay here. When they sign for English clubs, they become better players and have the potential to earn a shed load of money.

EDIT: I think there could be room for an LOI XI to go out as Ireland B and play some friendlies on international weekends and the like against premiership teams or international teams, I don't expect Brazil to show up but maybe what's left of Manchester United or lower premiership teams like Wigan.

Francie Barrett

People miss the point completely on youth development in football. When you look at the likes of Barcelona, you will see that many of their stars have been exposed to a world-class coaching system since they were as young as 10 years old! Playing a 20 year old LOI player in internationals will do feck all to improve things.

A_Sober_Paddy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The LOI Clubs are culpable in this. Shamrock Rovers have not invested substantially in their youth setup since their Europa League windfall. The Senior Clubs do little or nothing to link with the elite level youth game. The LOI Clubs are way behind when it comes to the best 12 - 16 year old kids playing ball in this country.

The FAI have invested in better coaches, initiatives like the emerging talent program etc.

The LOI contingent are ready to pile on in full force in this thread, I can smell it. And as always, it doesn't smell good.

The vast majority of the clubs run at a loss while the FAI pay a manager a huge sum every year...Our national tram managers earns more than the Dutch coach

And lets not get started on our good fried to Limerick FC John Delaney

Father Damo

joker77 wrote: »

I'd like to open this up for debate.

Why not do something different?

Qualification this time around is going to be very difficult. And the future isn't looking any brighter.

This might generate a bit of badly needed interest in our national league.

Until football is improved at a grass roots level in this country, achieving anything on a national stage is a pipe dream.

So we reward semi pro journeymen with caps and deny the privilidge to better players who are playing for better teams because in many cases they put a better effort in?

That is a viable plan?


It is nearly as nonsensical as people here claiming that if Irish lads did not go to England at 17 they would somehow turn out to be better players.

Pro. F

joker77 wrote: »

My point was about the standard of players.

Kevin Doyle and Shane Long are not representative of the standard of the LOI.

SantryRed

Ridiculous thread.

applehunter

No to the original idea.

But,

I'd like to see more link up between senior set up and LOI. The u-23 internationals were something but it was just token jesture. Pat Fenlon put a lot of time into it and felt that it was not being taken seriously by powers that be in senior set-up.

Gavin "shels"

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

How do you propose to stop a 16 year old signing for a UK club? Imprisonment?

Do essentially what Germany do to a big extent, you don't play in Germany you don't get into the German side, not written in stone but it's fairly common knowledge. Same happens with rubgy in Aus and NZ iirc.

Francie Barrett wrote: »

People miss the point completely on youth development in football. When you look at the likes of Barcelona, you will see that many of their stars have been exposed to a world-class coaching system since they were as young as 10 years old! Playing a 20 year old LOI player in internationals will do feck all to improve things.

BINGO!

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

The vast majority of the clubs run at a loss while the FAI pay a manager a huge sum every year...Our national tram managers earns more than the Dutch coach

BINGO!


The solution is simple, the implentation is going to be difficult. The FAI looked and always have looked for a quick solution, hire a good (in Traps case expensive manager) who are expected to work wonders with a team of nobodies imo. They can't work miracles.

How do you change this? The FAI firstly need to stop paying stupid salaries, charging stupid fees for LoI clubs to join the League and spot working of their dated ideas for the League.

Then down to grassroots, Ireland could easily start working off the "Horst Wein’s Youth Football Development Model", this is the model which has made the Spanish squad we see today, and Spanish football we see today.

I had a chat to a mate of mine the other night about this model, he thinks it's genius. He's played at every level in Ireland and is now at top LSL. Kids as he said should NOT be taught how to win football matches, they should be taught how to play football and build up to winning, as my mate said, it's useless players at 10 or 11 playing "competive" matches, they need to be trained firstly they taught how to win! The "Horst Wein Model" does this to a tee. I've linked two lads I know who coach at underage and they think it's a great idea of how to go about coaching.

Now onto my next point, at the moment Ireland isn't producing and developing players, they're hitting their teens, head to England, get trained and the majority don't make it. This has to stop. We can't rely on a foreign country to produce our players simple as.

Latenias idea of Centres of Excellence is also a good point, Connaught, Munster, Leinster and Dublin ones are needed imo and would be a great addition to the production of players.

Xavi6

Terrible idea, there isn't really anything else to say on it.

Pro. F

Gavin shels wrote: »

Do essentially what Germany do to a big extent, you don't play in Germany you don't get into the German side, not written in stone but it's fairly common knowledge. Same happens with rubgy in Aus and NZ iirc.

The thing is in Germany the players have a chance to earn very good money. In Ireland they don't. So if it was a choice between playing for their country or earning big bucks it's almost certain they would choose the money.

Gavin shels wrote: »

The solution is simple, the implentation is going to be difficult. The FAI looked and always have looked for a quick solution, hire a good (in Traps case expensive manager) who are expected to work wonders with a team of nobodies imo. They can't work miracles.

How do you change this? The FAI firstly need to stop paying stupid salaries, charging stupid fees for LoI clubs to join the League and spot working of their dated ideas for the League.

Then down to grassroots, Ireland could easily start working off the "Horst Wein’s Youth Football Development Model", this is the model which has made the Spanish squad we see today, and Spanish football we see today.

I had a chat to a mate of mine the other night about this model, he thinks it's genius. He's played at every level in Ireland and is now at top LSL. Kids as he said should NOT be taught how to win football matches, they should be taught how to play football and build up to winning, as my mate said, it's useless players at 10 or 11 playing "competive" matches, they need to be trained firstly they taught how to win! The "Horst Wein Model" does this to a tee. I've linked two lads I know who coach at underage and they think it's a great idea of how to go about coaching.

Now onto my next point, at the moment Ireland isn't producing and developing players, they're hitting their teens, head to England, get trained and the majority don't make it. This has to stop. We can't rely on a foreign country to produce our players simple as.

Latenias idea of Centres of Excellence is also a good point, Connaught, Munster, Leinster and Dublin ones are needed imo and would be a great addition to the production of players.

I agree with the change in youth coaching being important. That is far more important than the development centres imo. If every junior club was run along the lines you describe, of small sided games where winning isn't important, it would positively affect the development of thousands of kids every week. Whereas the training centres only affect the kids when they are in them, and a lot of time and money has to be wasted getting the kids there. It's also a lot more expensive to build and staff training centres than it is to teach youth coaches how to coach most effectively.

Pride Fighter

It's not a good idea, but people have to realise that the League needs to be developed and supported.

It has produced a string of good players in recent years and with further backing can produce more.

It's produced good players such as

David Forde
Seamus Coleman
Stephen Ward
David Meyler
Keith Fahey
James McClean
Niall McGinn
Paddy McCourt
Kevin Doyle
Shane Long

All of the above would make a team that would have done better against Germany than the disgrace that took place on Friday.

Gavin "shels"

Pro. F wrote: »

The thing is in Germany the players have a chance to earn very good money. In Ireland they don't. So if it was a choice between playing for their country or earning big bucks it's almost certain they would choose the money.

Right to the point, that's why the League was one of my points too.
Without a strong League we'll never have a good International side.

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree with the change in youth coaching being important. That is far more important than the development centres imo. If every junior club was run along the lines you describe, of small sided games where winning isn't important, it would positively affect the development of thousands of kids every week. Whereas the training centres only affect the kids when they are in them, and a lot of time and money has to be wasted getting the kids there. It's also a lot more expensive to build and staff training centres than it is to teach youth coaches how to coach most effectively.

The Development Centres (Centres of Excellence) wouldn't be used as a first approach, it should be used as an addition resource of players who want more. I could be wrong but don't Salthill run things like that occassionally in Drom?

Pride Fighter wrote: »

It's not a good idea, but people have to realise that the League needs to be developed and supported.

It has produced a string of good players in recent years and with further backing can produce more.

It's produced good players such as

David Forde
Seamus Coleman
Stephen Ward
David Meyler
Keith Fahey
James McClean
Niall McGinn
Paddy McCourt
Kevin Doyle
Shane Long

All of the above would make a team that would have done better against Germany than the disgrace that took place on Friday.

Wes Hoolahan!

Pro. F

Gavin shels wrote: »

Right to the point, that's why the League was one of my points too.
Without a strong League we'll never have a good International side.

I wouldn't say never, anomalies can still happen, but I agree that weakness in the league holds back the national team too.

Gavin shels wrote: »

The Development Centres (Centres of Excellence) wouldn't be used as a first approach, it should be used as an addition resource of players who want more. I could be wrong but don't Salthill run things like that occassionally in Drom?

Yeah I know what you mean. I just think the rejig of youth development is the most important. I'm not saying I'm right, that's just the way it strikes me.

Pride Fighter

Gavin shels wrote: »

Wes Hoolahan!

Another quality player.

Another good player who is having a decent career in England would be Connor Sammon. That is 12 names of players the League has produced in the past 8 years.

ArmaniJeanss

Gavin shels wrote: »

Do essentially what Germany do to a big extent, you don't play in Germany you don't get into the German side, not written in stone but it's fairly common knowledge.

Never heard of that before. Is it not just a case that most German players are able to make a career in Germany and thus rarely leave?
But those who do leave still seem to be selected, like Ozil, Khedira and Klose, or Lehmann and Ballack a few years ago.

Gavin "shels"

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Never heard of that before. Is it not just a case that most German players are able to make a career in Germany and thus rarely leave?
But those who do leave still seem to be selected, like Ozil, Khedira and Klose, or Lehmann and Ballack a few years ago.

Neuer basically said he wouldn't leave Germany for England due to international duties when Man Utd approached. Has been said by others too.

ArmaniJeanss

Gavin shels wrote: »

Neuer basically said he wouldn't leave Germany for England due to international duties when Man Utd approached. Has been said by others too.

But there was also Arsenal players Mertsaker and Podolski playing against us last Saturday, as well as 3 of the others I mentioned.
Neuer may believe being on German TV every week keeps him in the spotlight and secures his position, fair enough - but clearly theres no policy, either official or unofficial, to select only German based players.

kitakyushu

I'd say the most traditionally "home based" of the European superpowers is actually England, then Italy and maybe Germany in third.

Here's selected Euro squads at the finals of the last few tournaments and the number of domestic players (since the increase in squad size to 23).

tournament|England|Spain|Italy|Germany
2012|23|17|20|20
2010|23|20|23|23
2008|n/a|18|19|19
2006|21|18|23|21
2004|21|22|23|20
2002|22|22|23|20

Apanachi

Gavin shels wrote: »

Do essentially what Germany do to a big extent, you don't play in Germany you don't get into the German side, not written in stone but it's fairly common knowledge.

Sorry, but that is so not true.

gustavo

Pride Fighter wrote: »

It's not a good idea, but people have to realise that the League needs to be developed and supported.

It has produced a string of good players in recent years and with further backing can produce more.

It's produced good players such as

David Forde
Seamus Coleman
Stephen Ward
David Meyler
Keith Fahey
James McClean
Niall McGinn
Paddy McCourt
Kevin Doyle
Shane Long

All of the above would make a team that would have done better against Germany than the disgrace that took place on Friday.

Indeed 4 of them already did