A Defense of Giovanni Trappatoni

Higher · 16-10-2012 9:50pm #1

Trappatoni's current record is 22 wins, 17 draws and 12 loses. The teams he has lost to are: Germany, Italy x 2, Spain, Croatia, Russia x 2, Brazil x 2, Argentina, Uruguay, Norway.

Other than Norway the teams Trappatoni has lost to are some of the best in the world. So you can't honestly fire him on his win-loss record. Other than Norway, none of those loses were unexpected.

Furthermore Trappatoni brought Ireland on a 11 game clean sheat. He won the Carling Nations Cup, he qualified for the Euros and if not for a refereeing blunder in France he could very well have qualified Ireland for the World Cup.

So could someone please explain to me again why he needs to go? Is it because he lost to Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay and Russia? Or is it because he didn't qualify from a Euros group containing two of the european finalists?

Has anyone else noticed that Ireland only have ONE Champions League player who plays for the mighty Spartak Moscow. We have no players that are starting for any top teams. Qualifying for the Euros and losing only to teams ranked in the top 10 in the world (other than Norway) over a 4 year period is nothing to be sacked over.

He qualified us for the Euros. He could very easily have qualified us for the World Cup if not for Henry. And now, admist all the press circling, he has us on track to finish second and qualify.

Lets stop the hysteria, be realistic about our team, look at our record under Trap and stop listening to the media who clearly have a massive agenda.

PhlegmyMoses · 16-10-2012 9:51pm

*defence.

patmac · 16-10-2012 9:52pm

He's lucky, his team plays pants football, he is overpaid, he doesn't go to matches but judges players by what they do in training. He should go

Higher · 16-10-2012 9:54pm

patmac wrote: »

He's lucky, his team plays pants football, he is overpaid, he doesn't go to matches but judges players by what they do in training. He should go

39/51 games unbeaten is hardly lucky. Why should he go to matches? Surely you can see a hell of a lot more watching the match on a DVD.

In fact if we take out the loses against teams ranked in the top 10 in the world then Trapatoni has 39/42 games unbeaten.

Renn · 16-10-2012 9:54pm

He won the Carling Nations Cup

NIMAN · 16-10-2012 9:55pm

I think Liam Brady made a good argument for him tonight.

hefferboi · 16-10-2012 9:55pm

Caveman football.

adox · 16-10-2012 9:56pm

Higher wrote: »

Why should he go to matches? Surely you can see a hell of a lot more watching the match on a DVD.

For real?

Higher · 16-10-2012 9:57pm

hefferboi wrote: »

Caveman football.

Caveman football that has ensured that we have been unbeaten in 39/51 games. Caveman football that qualified us for the Euros. Caveman football that had us go on a 11 match clean sheet streak. Caveman football that has us currently 2nd in our group.

Results are what matter, no?

hefferboi · 16-10-2012 9:58pm

He also hasn't beaten a team higher than us since he took over?

Higher · 16-10-2012 9:58pm

adox wrote: »

For real?

Make me a good argument. What do you gain going to matches that you don't gain watching the match on t.v?

In fact I'd argue that if you're asessing a player then you're better off watching it on a dvd

Soups123 · 16-10-2012 9:59pm

Higher wrote: »

Caveman football that has ensured that we have been unbeaten in 39/51 games. Caveman football that qualified us for the Euros. Caveman football that had us go on a 11 match clean sheet streak. Caveman football that has us currently 2nd in our group.

Results are what matter, no?

He continually overlooks our barcarsque style players holding us back from playing free flowing, attacking football and doing better than 39/51

Celly Smunt · 16-10-2012 9:59pm

Hi liam

16-10-2012 9:59pm

Sure it's grand.

Owen Coyle will come in and we can take this group playing sexy football.

kensutz · 16-10-2012 9:59pm

Higher wrote: »

Make me a good argument. What do you gain going to matches that you don't gain watching the match on t.v?

You can hardly see a full pitch and player movements on the dvd :rolleyes:

hefferboi · 16-10-2012 9:59pm

Higher wrote: »

Caveman football that has ensured that we have been unbeaten in 39/51 games. Caveman football that qualified us for the Euros. Caveman football that had us go on a 11 match clean sheet streak. Caveman football that has us currently 2nd in our group.

Results are what matter, no?

Caveman football that made us the laughing stock at the Euro's. Caveman football that requires players playing in lower leagues to premier league players and youth players. His time is up.

patmac · 16-10-2012 10:00pm

Higher wrote: »

39/51 games unbeaten is hardly lucky. Why should he go to matches? Surely you can see a hell of a lot more watching the match on a DVD.

In fact if we take out the loses against teams ranked in the top 10 in the world then Trapatoni has 39/42 games unbeaten.

Is that you Liam. Personally his management style frustrates me, some of his decisions are indefensible, Cox on the wing his persistence with O'Dea, his alienation and treatment of players like ,McClean,Reid, Long etc, and what is worse of all he has made me fall out of love with our National team.

adox · 16-10-2012 10:00pm

Higher wrote: »

Make me a good argument. What do you gain going to matches that you don't gain watching the match on t.v?

In fact I'd argue that if you're asessing a player then you're better off watching it on a dvd

Use your own eyes to watch a player rather than where some person decides to point a camera.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:01pm

hefferboi wrote: »

He also hasn't beaten a team higher than us since he took over?

Paraguay. You can only play whats in front of you. In the few times he has played teams ahead of us they have been not only ahead of us but the BEST in the world. And yet still he has a record of draws against teams vastly superior to us.

recyclebin · 16-10-2012 10:01pm

It's not the fact that we are getting beaten by high ranked teams. It's the fact that we are getting destroyed by them. We are not put up any fight at all and just rolling over against them. The three Euro games and the Germany match were a shambles.

~Rebel~ · 16-10-2012 10:02pm

While I hated what happened at the Euro's, with 100% record with us of finishing second, i think he deserves the campaign. I have no confidence that whoever would replace him now would be good enough to qualify us, whereas he's shown that he might.

Also, for all our grumbling, Coleman and McCarthy are now first team players, something which can only improve our ball-playing. McCarthy in particular seemed very happy for him to stay. I know players often just say these things, but he didn't have to point out how great he thought Trap has been with him.

Washington Irving · 16-10-2012 10:02pm

Higher wrote: »

Qualifying for the Euros and losing only to teams ranked in the top 10 in the world (other than Croatia and Norway) over a 4 year period is nothing to be sacked over.

Croatia were ranked 8th in the world when they beat us

Red Crow · 16-10-2012 10:03pm

I think a lot of peoples ideals of a younger free passing team are delusional. I think we have a decent group of players who are doing all right at the moment. I don't agree with him not picking a few players and some other decisions but the fact is that under his tenure we nearly reached the WC minus Henry's cheating and we got to the Euros. I think for a small country like ourselves that is a decent record despite how we performed at the Euros. I think he should be given the chance to see out this campaign and see what happens.

Some of todays papers were disgraceful and disgusting tbh.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:04pm

hefferboi wrote: »

Caveman football that made us the laughing stock at the Euro's. Caveman football that requires players playing in lower leagues to premier league players and youth players. His time is up.

Tell me what results you think hes been shown up in?

39/51 unbeaten. He must be doing something right.

A 5-0 loss to Spain who ended up beating Italy 4-0 in the final?

The only other result was last week, and that Germany side were beating Sweden 4-0 before they took their foot off the gas tonight.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:06pm

recyclebin wrote: »

It's not the fact that we are getting beaten by high ranked teams. It's the fact that we are getting destroyed by them. We are not put up any fight at all and just rolling over against them. The three Euro games and the Germany match were a shambles.

Are we?

Spain and Germany are the only 'heavy defeats'
Spain went on to thrash Italy 4-0 weeks later after their 5-0 win over us.
Germany nearly beat Sweden 4-0 tonight after their 6-1 win over us last week.

All other results against higher ranked teams have been respectable. In fact in some cases we've even gotten excellent draws.

kitakyushu · 16-10-2012 10:07pm

Higher wrote: »

He won the Carling Nations Cup

Sorry. I had to stop reading there.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:08pm

adox wrote: »

Use your own eyes to watch a player rather than where some person decides to point a camera.

You are aware clubs will have their own cameras? Trap undoubtedly gets the club tapes that focus on individual players.

GLaDOS · 16-10-2012 10:08pm

Higher wrote: »

Germany nearly beat Sweden 4-0 tonight

4-4 is not nearly 4-0

Ardent · 16-10-2012 10:10pm

patmac wrote: »

Is that you Liam. Personally his management style frustrates me, some of his decisions are indefensible, Cox on the wing his persistence with O'Dea, his alienation and treatment of players like ,McClean,Reid, Long etc, and what is worse of all he has made me fall out of love with our National team.

Boo hoo

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:11pm

ScienceNerd wrote: »

4-4 is not nearly 4-0

All I'm saying is that German team is almost unstoppable when they click in attack. They obviously took the foot off the gas going 4-0 up. Unfortunately for Ireland they clicked for 90 minutes.

adox · 16-10-2012 10:12pm

Higher wrote: »

You are aware clubs will have their own cameras? Trap undoubtedly gets the club tapes that focus on individual players.

Sigh. I didn't even think this would be up for debate. No matter what camera is focused on a player, the best way to assess a player is watch him live when you can see the whole pitch and watch how the player performs with and without the ball and how he contributes in the context of the whole game.

Renn · 16-10-2012 10:12pm

Higher wrote: »

All I'm saying is that German team is almost unstoppable when they click in attack. They obviously took the foot off the gas going 4-0 up. Unfortunately for Ireland they clicked for 90 minutes.

They took the foot off the gas early on vs Ireland.

SeantheMan · 16-10-2012 10:12pm

I believe in Trap, he deserves the job, and the campaign at least.

hefferboi · 16-10-2012 10:13pm

Higher wrote: »

Tell me what results you think hes been shown up in?

39/51 unbeaten. He must be doing something right.

A 5-0 loss to Spain who ended up beating Italy 4-0 in the final?

The only other result was last week, and that Germany side were beating Sweden 4-0 before they took their foot off the gas tonight.

So you disagree that we were an embarrassment in the Euro's?

clubberlang12 · 16-10-2012 10:13pm

Higher wrote: »

All I'm saying is that German team is almost unstoppable when they click in attack. They obviously took the foot off the gas going 4-0 up. Unfortunately for Ireland they clicked for 90 minutes.

They never came out of 2nd gear for those 90 mins. The Swedish team showed a sense of pride and fight.............something Trap has never instilled in this team.

noodler · 16-10-2012 10:14pm

clubberlang12 wrote: »

The Swedish team showed a sense of pride and fight.............something Trap has never instilled in this team.

That is absolute horsesh1t.

He was manager for four years before the Euros and there was plenty of both shown.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:15pm

adox wrote: »

Sigh. I didn't even think this would be up for debate. No matter what camera is focused on a player, the best way to assess a player is watch him live when you can see the whole pitch and watch how the player performs with and without the ball and how he contributes in the context of the whole game.

Thats the point, the individual cameras the clubs use DO focus on the players movement on the whole pitch

Ardent · 16-10-2012 10:15pm

hefferboi wrote: »

So you disagree that we were an embarrassment in the Euro's?

The players were an embarrassment, yes.

Augmerson · 16-10-2012 10:15pm

Higher wrote: »

Trappatoni's current record is 22 wins, 17 draws and 12 loses. The teams he has lost to are: Germany, Italy x 2, Spain, Croatia, Russia x 2, Brazil x 2, Argentina, Uruguay, Norway.

Other than Norway and Croatia the teams Trappatoni has lost to are some of the best in the world. So you can't honestly fire him on his win-loss record. Other than Norway, none of those loses were unexpected.

Furthermore Trappatoni brought Ireland on a 11 game clean sheat. He won the Carling Nations Cup, he qualified for the Euros and if not for a refereeing blunder in France he could very well have qualified Ireland for the Euros.

So could someone please explain to me again why he needs to go? Is it because he lost to Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay and Russia? Or is it because he didn't qualify from a Euros group containing two of the european finalists?

Has anyone else noticed that Ireland only have ONE Champions League player who plays for the mighty Spartak Moscow. We have no players that are starting for any top teams. Qualifying for the Euros and losing only to teams ranked in the top 10 in the world (other than Croatia and Norway) over a 4 year period is nothing to be sacked over.

He qualified us for the Euros. He could very easily have qualified us for the World Cup if not for Henry. And now, admist all the press circling, he has us on track to finish second and qualify.

Lets stop the hysteria, be realistic about our team, look at our record under Trap and stop listening to the media who clearly have a massive agenda.

Sorry but if you need this explained to you then you probably won't understand the answer anyway. Fans of the Irish team have been unhappy for a long time before the drubbing at the hands of Germany, it's not hysteria. We barely made it out of the Euro's qualifying group thanks largely to Slovakia throwing it away and drew the easiest team in the Play-Off's. We deservedly got hammered in Euro 2012 and I think we were the worst team to play in a European Championship ever. There is no fight or imagination in the way the Irish team plays nowadays, it's Hoofball.

I'm not asking for people to do Pele stuff on the pitch. It'd be one thing if firing it up the pitch all the time got results, but it doesn't, Trapattoni doesn't pull this off. We got very lucky against Kazakhstan. We got found out against Germany. And there is no plan B then. No backup plan or other way of trying. He alienates members of the Irish squad, doesn't do his homework, doesn't go and watch games or watch players play.

Andy Reid, Steven Reid, Stephen Ireland, Darron Gibson, James McClean, Stephen Kelly. These are all players who've had bust-ups with Trapattoni. That is a considerable number of players, and although 2 of them are still in the Irish set-up, the rest have departed or been pushed out. I'd imagine there are a lot of players who are currently in the squad who are angry or disappointed but they say nothing because they don't want to be pushed out either.

He plays awful players and plays them out of position. Paul Green should be nowhere near us. We played largely inferior teams in the Carling Nations. Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland? They are not good teams, they are a shadow of their former selves by a long margin. We had a unbeaten streak against low grade opposition.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:16pm

hefferboi wrote: »

So you disagree that we were an embarrassment in the Euro's?

Losing to two finalists and a team ranked 8th in the world?
Nope

Were Italy an embarassement because they lost to that same Spain side 4-0?

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:16pm

noodler wrote: »

That is absolute horsesh1t.

He was manager for four years before the Euros and there was plenty of both shown.

Yeah there was a severe lack of pride against Russia and France :rolleyes:

adox · 16-10-2012 10:19pm

Higher wrote: »

Thats the point, the individual cameras the clubs use DO focus on the players movement on the whole pitch

Look this will be my last word on this as I feel I'm taking your thread off topic slightly off topic but, I was talking in respect of being able to see the whole pitch as in looking at the player then looking at the space around him, where the opposition players in relation to him, where his team mates are and how he reacts etc etc.

Surely it's a given that the best way to assess a player is to go watch him live.

clubberlang12 · 16-10-2012 10:19pm

noodler wrote: »

That is absolute horsesh1t.

He was manager for four years before the Euros and there was plenty of both shown.

Where? When the players used their own initiative against France. Russia? He can't take any credit for Dunne or Given's performance that evening. Show me where he has instilled that fight or pride that was not in any player before.

When the chips were down he has never been able to motivate his team. Don't be getting confused with something already ingrained in some players make-up and something Trap would take claim for.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:21pm

Augmerson wrote: »

Andy Reid, Steven Reid, Stephen Ireland, Darron Gibson, James McClean, Stephen Kelly. These are all players who've had bust-ups with Trapattoni. That is a considerable number of players, and although 2 of them are still in the Irish set-up, the rest have departed or been pushed out. I'd imagine there are a lot of players who are currently in the squad who are angry or disappointed but they say nothing because they don't want to be pushed out either.

Andy Reid - A lad who went on the piss past curfew and then told Trap to **** off when he told him to go to bed.

Stephen Ireland - A lad who couldn't give a **** about Ireland irrespective of Trap

James McClean - A lad who went out and tweeted his disappointment at not getting picked insinuating he is better than other players on the team

He plays awful players and plays them out of position. Paul Green should be nowhere near us. We played largely inferior teams in the Carling Nations. Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland? They are not good teams, they are a shadow of their former selves by a long margin. We had a unbeaten streak against low grade opposition .

And yet he has 39/51 games unbeaten. The only team ranked outside the top 10 in the world that he has lost to is Norway. He Qualified us for the Euros and nearly qualified us for the World Cup if not for a refereeing blunder.

noodler · 16-10-2012 10:22pm

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Where? When the players used their own initiative against France. Russia? He can't take any credit for Dunne or Given's performance that evening. Show me where he has instilled that fight or pride that was not in any player before.

When the chips were down he has never been able to motivate his team. Don't be getting confused with something already ingrained in some players make-up and something Trap would take claim for.

Italy at home.
Italy Away.

Macedonia Away.
Montenagro away.

France away.

Cyprus away.

Estonia away.

Russia away.

Armenia away.

Tell me when you want me to stop.

Passion and pride have undoubtedly been part of Traps's teams.

The tactics and personal have been wrong many times but to say his teams haven't shown spirit is factually incorrect.

Augmerson · 16-10-2012 10:23pm

Higher wrote: »

Andy Reid - A lad who went on the piss past curfew and then told Trap to **** off when he told him to go to bed.

Stephen Ireland - A lad who couldn't give a **** about Ireland irrespective of Trap

James McClean - A lad who went out and tweeted his disappointment at not getting picked insinuating he is better than other players on the team

And yet he has 39/51 games unbeaten. The only team ranked outside the top 10 in the world that he has lost to is Norway. He Qualified us for the Euros and nearly qualified us for the World Cup if not for a refereeing blunder.

Ah no seriously, don't just pick the parts you think you can defend from my response, go over the whole thing again. Go on.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:25pm

Augmerson wrote: »

Ah no seriously, don't just pick the parts you think you can defend from my response, go over the whole thing again. Go on.

What evidence do you have about Stephen Reid? He said he'd come back for Ireland if there was a crisis. Hes hardly had a falling out, he just wasn't picked and retired.

starbelgrade · 16-10-2012 10:26pm

Augmerson wrote: »

Sorry but if you need this explained to you then you probably won't understand the answer anyway.

It's sentences like these that piss me off about this forum.

Everyone here has an opinion and everyone's entitled to express it - there's nothing like a good debate, but when you basically try to tell other posters that they are too stupid to understand your "obviously correct" point of view, then the debate turns to shite and becomes nothing more than an "I know more than you" competition.

Well guess what - you don't actually know more than anyone else. You're just a punter like the rest of us, so get over yourself.

Predalien · 16-10-2012 10:26pm

Higher wrote: »

All I'm saying is that German team is almost unstoppable when they click in attack. They obviously took the foot off the gas going 4-0 up. Unfortunately for Ireland they clicked for 90 minutes.

That's a load of complete s**t, it does however highlight that Germany could have been got at a bit if you actually show a bit of ambition. They didn't need to click for 90 minutes against us (as Hamann observed they didn't get out of third gear). We gave them the ball and stood off, that's how Trap thinks we should play. Under Trap we will never beat a good side playing his way, this 39/51 games thing you've spouted a few times is crap, the highest ranked team we've actually beaten competitively is Armenia. A huge chunk of the decent results have been thanks in no small part to some remarkable luck and crap referees.

Stop your nonsense.

Higher · 16-10-2012 10:28pm

Predalien wrote: »

That's a load of complete s**t, it does however highlight that Germany could have been got at a bit if you actually show a bit of ambition. They didn't need to click for 90 minutes against us (as Hamann observed they didn't get out of third gear). We gave them the ball and stood off, that's how Trap thinks we should play. Under Trap we will never beat a good side playing his way, this 39/51 games thing you've spouted a few times is crap, the highest ranked team we've actually beaten competitively is Armenia. A huge chunk of the decent results have been thanks in no small part to some remarkable luck and crap referees.

Stop your nonsense.

Paraguay? What about all those teams ranked way above us that we've drawn with?

Really. All those results have been luck and crap referees?
We also failed to qualify for the world cup against FRANCE because of bad luck and a crap referee.

How many of the defeats have been to teams ranked in the top 8 in the world at the time we played them?

16-10-2012 10:29pm

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Where? When the players used their own initiative against France. Russia? He can't take any credit for Dunne or Given's performance that evening. Show me where he has instilled that fight or pride that was not in any player before.

When the chips were down he has never been able to motivate his team. Don't be getting confused with something already ingrained in some players make-up and something Trap would take claim for.

Hold on. You can hardly criticise a manager for poor results and then claim it was only the players that were responsible for the good results.

You Sir are posting nonsense.

A Defense of Giovanni Trappatoni

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