A Defense of Giovanni Trappatoni

Higher

Predalien wrote: »

Yet you ignore that Armenia are the highest ranked team we've beaten competitively? He's had lucky groups, lucky decisions, an easy play off and this blinds fools into thinking he is doing a good job. We don't need to pay a guy €1.7m to get the team hoofing the ball down the park.

Paraguay as well. You can only play whats in front of you. I don't blame Trap for losing to the likes of Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Italy, Germany. These are the best teams in the world.

Higher

Predalien wrote: »

Should have held on in the home game against Italy.

Yes, Trap should be sacked for failing to get a victory over the Euro finalists :rolleyes:

Predalien

Higher wrote: »

Paraguay as well. You can only play whats in front of you. I don't blame Trap for losing to the likes of Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Italy, Germany. These are the best teams in the world.

Do you have a blind spot for the word competitive? Or simply not understand what it means?

Higher

I am genuinely beginning to think Irish fans could be worse than English fans.

I mean, many here would have you believe that Ireland deserve to qualify from the group stages of the Euros and beat the likes of Brazil, Argentina and Spain.

I think its extraordinary. We have been unbeaten in 75% of the games played under Trappatoni.

PhiloCypher

Higher wrote: »

Has the quality of Irish players ever been this bad though? Its hardly Trap's fault that we don't have any players playing for top teams.

No but we have players playing in the premiership that are being sidelined for championship players/ out of contract players/ mls players .

And how do you know how good an irish team comprised of all the players he has thrown to the wayside could be if he never gives them the chance .

Idbatterim

Im taking some consolation in the fact that A) we are still in with a chance of qualifying he is gone after this campaign, play off, or tournie exit anyway c) for future euro tournies, 24 teams will qualify, meaning Ireland should be in with very good shout. There are definitely things I would blame him for and are inexcusable, but the many injuries we have had to cope with for the past 2 matches arent one of them...

Higher

Predalien wrote: »

Do you have a blind spot for the word competitive? Or simply not understand what it means?

Can you answer the question of how many competitive games Trappatoni has lost in 4 years?

You are criticizing Trap for Ireland drawing with the Euro finalists in the WC Qualifer. Genuinely shocking. I doubt even the English manager would get cricized for that.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

Higher wrote: »

I am genuinely beginning to think Irish fans could be worse than English fans.

I mean, many here would have you believe that Ireland deserve to qualify from the group stages of the Euros and beat the likes of Brazil, Argentina and Spain.

I think its extraordinary. We have been unbeaten in 75% of the games played under Trappatoni.

Nobody expects us to beat the top sides.

But nobody expects us to get humiliated either.

Hannibal

Predalien wrote: »

Yet you ignore that Armenia are the highest ranked team we've beaten competitively? He's had lucky groups, lucky decisions, an easy play off and this blinds fools into thinking he is doing a good job. We don't need to pay a guy €1.7m to get the team hoofing the ball down the park.

Like being drawn against the defending World Champions to qualify for the 2010 World Cup?
Being drawn against the then current second place World Champions in the playoffs?
Getting Spain, Italy and Croatia in the Euros?
Drawing both Germany and Sweden for this campaign?

If that is lucky groups.. tell me what an unlucky group is?


As for lucky decisions.. "Being drawn against the then current second place World Champions in the playoffs?"

Higher

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

Nobody expects us to beat the top sides.

But nobody expects us to get humiliated either.

We've only been humilated by Spain before last week, and they beat Italy by the same margin in the final of the Euros which shows just how good they were. So that was hardly humilating when it was put into context.

Other than last week, I haven't seen us humilated by any top team.

Idbatterim

Its like someone being bullied and constantly being told that they are worthless, after a while they start to believe this and their self-esteem wears away. We seem to have an inferiority complex when faced with a decent team now. Where as before we had an attitude of "you think your better than us, lets see about that", we may have lost, but we put up a fight and never ever put in a performance like last Friday.

totally agree with this, I nearly think we are like rabbits in the headlights now, Trapp is so concerned with the opposition and what they can do and at the same time, putting down our own players & damaging their self belief and morale. At the end of the day its 11 v 11, and you can even see from some of the shock results tonight, that nothing could be taken for granted. Back in the day, Ireland could beat anyone on their day...

weldoninhio

Dotsey wrote: »

Like being drawn against the defending World Champions to qualify for the 2010 World Cup?
Being drawn against the then current second place World Champions in the playoffs?
Getting Spain, Italy and Croatia in the Euros?
Drawing both Germany and Sweden for this campaign?

If that is lucky groups.. tell me what an unlucky group is?


As for lucky decisions.. "Being drawn against the then current second place World Champions in the playoffs?"

Defending World Champs?? Who came last in a group containing New Zealand, Slovakia and Paraguay??? Gaining 2 point

2nd Place world champions?? Who came last in a group containing South Africa, Mexico and Uruguay??? Gaining 1 points

You don't think it was lucky to play them when they were in such disarray??

WallyGUFC

Higher wrote: »

I think people are defending him on his overall record to be honest. We should have lost to Kazachstan? What does that mean? Can I then argue that we should have knocked out France and qualified for the World Cup?



Really? we have the players to run rings around the likes of Italy, Germany, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Russia, Croatia, Uruguay, France? (just listing the teams hes lost to)

Can you read? I specifically said not putting 5 past the likes of Germany, but at least putting passes together. Read the post you're arguing against before posting such a stupid response.
We'll never ever be as good as these teams, but that doesn't mean we can't play reasonably attractive football and still get results. Armenia outplayed us with 10 men. Slovakia pretty much outplayed us. The France situation is different. Blatant cheating cost us a penalty shootout. But we outplayed them by getting the ball down. The goal Robbie scored was beautifully worked.
If Trap started going to matches in England, stopped alienating our youthful players and adopted a different mentality to the level of talent in this country then I'd have absolutely no problem with him staying. But we all know he'll never change. His stubborness is what will end his tenure eventually.

Renn

haven't shown spirit is factually incorrect

Anyway, think this guy is gone now. Bizarre for the FAI to keep him on now after not coming out to say that his job is safe etc.

Higher

Higher wrote: »

You are aware clubs will have their own cameras? Trap undoubtedly gets the club tapes that focus on individual players.

Well then he will have looked at them and realised that Paul McShane and Paul Green are not international class and the likes of Coleman, Meyler, McCarthy, Mclean, etc, should have being blooded through the ranks and played instead of them....oh wait....

To be honest i cant understand the logic of defending that deep against teams. We should be surely aiming to keep the opposition as far up the field as possible and granted while we are not the most stylish outfit then surely the old 'Put em under pressure' methodology comes into play.

The FAI are probably now using the media to try and force Trap out but Trap will dig his heels and do you know what i actually dont blame him. They were the reckless eejits who offered a manager a huge contract before a major tournament instead of waiting to see how it panned out. They learned nothing from their rugby counterparts with Eddie O'Sullivan a few years back.

SantryRed

Well since you've had a defense, I'll give you the criticisms, I don't necessarily think he should be sacked, his contract just shouldn't be renewed for the next qualification campaign:

1. Tactics

I still believe that the players do not get any instructions going out on to the pitch about how we are going to play. I believe he names the team and the positions and that is pretty much that. It looks that way when we play as there is absolutely no continuity in our play, there's no movement, what happens is the ball is tapped around the back, maybe hitting the midfielders once, before panic sets in and it is aimlessly hoofed up the pitch. This isn't the same way Jack Charlton played, his philosophy was putting the other team under pressure, we have never ever done this bar one game in Paris (which I still think is all on the players that night), instead we just sit back and get teams to come on to us. It is absolute suicide and it is sheer luck with some of the results we have gotten.

2. Selection

His selection of players absolutely stinks and I believe this is all down to his attitude in the job. I don't think he does any of his own scouting of players at all. He'd happily name the same 23 man squad every time if he was able to, this isn't due to keeping continuity, this is sheer laziness on Trappatoni's part as he doesn't go to any games at all, I'd love to know how many times he has seen our players play in the stands in his 4 years in charge. I think the same goes for who he puts out as his first 11. He is so slow to make changes which are blatantly obvious that need to be changed. The biggest example of this in the past few months is Marc Wilson being left sit on the bench while Stephen Ward gets torn apart by every single right winger he has faced.

3. Man Management

Well he has none. I'm not going to go into this but he has been a disgrace in this regard. It's not even the players he has fallen out with who have wanted a game, his treatment of Kevin Foley and of Steven Reid was absolutely disgraceful and he should really have been castigated a hell of a lot more for it.

Our tactics have never, ever won us a game under Trappatoni, NEVER. It has always been sheer luck that has bailed us out or the fact that the players individual talents are better than the other teams. We've been so lucky under him:

2008:
Georgia - (Firstly, we were the only team who actually didn't have to play them in Georgia, instead we had to play them in Mainz, a keeper fumble was the deciding goal in a 2-1 win. At home, we were absolutely awful and the referee robbed Georgia with 20 minutes to go, giving a penalty that never was one, and we scored twice in two minutes as the Georgians were still caught up with the ridiculous decision.
Cyprus - (Yes, we won both games but again, the tactics stunk and we were so lucky, especially the home game. Jesus christ I remember us looking for the final whistle with about 20 minutes to go, some of the misses the Cypriots made that night were unbelievable.)
Bulgaria - (We actually lead in both games against the Bulgarians and we still couldn't win. The tactics or lack of once again killed us as we dropped deeper and deeper and tbh, we should have lost both games by the end of it.)
Italy - (Firstly, remember how poorly Italy did in the World Cup after qualifying, they were appalling, losing to Slovakia and drawing with New Zealand. Away from home we were again hugely lucky with Iaquinta being sent off after 5 minutes for an elbow, even with the Italians only having 10 men, we were dominated and we fell deeper and deeper and we only came into the game in the last 20 minutes, eventually scoring in the 93rd minute. The home game against Italy we played a lot better but we couldn't see the game out, but we really had them there for the taking as they were very poor at the time.)

2010:
Russia - (We were absolutely annihilated in both games against the Russians. It was nothing but sheer luck that we weren't more than 3 down at home when Trappatoni brought Long on and he sparked us to life. We almost got a draw out of a game where we didn't deserve anything. Once again this was all down to Trappatoni's lack of tactics where we played 4-4-2 with no real system in place and couldn't get any meaningful possession anywhere on the pitch. The away game goes down as the Richard Dunne and Shay Given show, how those two bailed us out of that game I will never know. We were battered from the word go until the 90th minute and some how escaped with a draw. This again was down to Trappatoni's ridiculous tactics of 4-4-2 and again we couldn't get meaningful possession any where on the pitch)
Slovakia - (The away game we went 1-0 up again but immediately conceded and fell back on ourselves and gave away possession. We weren't actually too bad in this game and at the time a draw in Slovakia was a decent result. However, the home game against this lot was an atrocity. We knew from the word go that Hamsik was going to be their most dangerous player, Trappatoni did absolutely nothing to combat this and in a game of few chances, the Slovakians were the better side and deserved to win. We never even gave that game a go, instead it was 4-4-2 again with no movement forward or anything, instead dropping deep and allowing Hamsik the space between our midfield and defense when on another day he could have set up a few due to this ridiculous situation.
Armenia - (We played pretty well in the opening game and a 1-0 win in Armenia was a great result so regardless of our performance there I will give Trappatoni that. However, in the home game, we got unbelievably lucky again when their keeper had a brain fart of massive proportions and got himself needlessly sent off. Even after this, it took a ridiculous own goal for us to go 1-0 up. At 2-0, we should have been controlling the game against 10 men, but no, again we had absolutely no system and we gave up a goal and it was a nerve wracking last 15 minutes when it really shouldn't have been.
Macedonia - (Good performance away from home, probably one of Trappatoni's best games in management, at home we were awful though and were lucky to get out with a 2-1 win)

So there's a prospective from the criticisms of Trappatoni. I still don't think he should be sacked now as it'd cost too much money for the FAI, but I definitely don't think his contract should be renewed.

Higher

Deleted User wrote: »

Well then he will have looked at them and realised that Paul McShane and Paul Green are not international class and the likes of Coleman, Meyler, McCarthy, Mclean, etc, should have being blooded through the ranks and played instead of them....oh wait....

To be honest i cant understand the logic of defending that deep against teams. We should be surely aiming to keep the opposition as far up the field as possible and granted while we are not the most stylish outfit then surely the old 'Put em under pressure' methodology comes into play.

The FAI are probably now using the media to try and force Trap out but Trap will dig his heels and do you know what i actually dont blame him. They were the reckless eejits who offered a manager a huge contract before a major tournament instead of waiting to see how it panned out. They learned nothing from their rugby counterparts with Eddie O'Sullivan a few years back.

I suppose the logic comes from 39/51 games unbeaten.

PhiloCypher

Higher whatever about his previous results can you not at least admit that the competitiveness we displayed in the past is no longer in evidence ??? , the teams you tout as us having been very competitive against in the past are now hammering us and the minnows which we were winning handily against before are now giving us scares and if not infact winning giving us lessons in possession football.

Keano

Deleted User wrote: »

Well then he will have looked at them and realised that Paul McShane and Paul Green are not international class and the likes of Coleman, Meyler, McCarthy, Mclean, etc, should have being blooded through the ranks and played instead of them....oh wait....

To be honest i cant understand the logic of defending that deep against teams. We should be surely aiming to keep the opposition as far up the field as possible and granted while we are not the most stylish outfit then surely the old 'Put em under pressure' methodology comes into play.

The FAI are probably now using the media to try and force Trap out but Trap will dig his heels and do you know what i actually dont blame him. They were the reckless eejits who offered a manager a huge contract before a major tournament instead of waiting to see how it panned out. They learned nothing from their rugby counterparts with Eddie O'Sullivan a few years back.

Plan A. We must not lose
Plan B. If safe to push up and score but not too far up!

recyclebin

Higher wrote: »

Can you answer the question of how many competitive games Trappatoni has lost in 4 years?

It's not the past four years that have been the problem. Trap turned Ireland's fortunes around. There is no doubt about it. He got us to the Euros and nearly to a World Cup.

The problem most fans have with trap is what has happened since we beat Estonia away in the playoff:

The defence has been atrocious leaking goals like a sieve.

It took injuries and retirements for him to change the starting line up.

Our best striker on current form is Long. He is only 4th or 5th choice in Traps eyes.

Our worst defender on current form is Darren O' Dea. He is playing for the worst team in the American league and yet he is ahead of premier league regulars like Ciaran Clark.

Higher

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Higher whatever about his previous results can you not at least admit that the competitiveness we displayed in the past is no longer in evidence ??? , the teams you tout as us having been very competitive against in the past are now hammering us and the minnows which we were winning handily against before are now giving us scares and if not infact winning giving us lessons in possession football.

Who has hammered us? Germany did last week.

As for Spain, they hammered Italy by the same score a couple of weeks later.

So other than Germany what teams have hammered us?

Predalien

Higher wrote: »

I suppose the logic comes from 39/51 games unbeaten.

Do you even realise this phrase doesn't make sense, if you're going to keep saying it it's unbeaten in 39 out of 51 games. The way you put it means either 39 or 51 games unbeaten.

eagle eye

hefferboi wrote: »

He also hasn't beaten a team higher than us since he took over?

Wrong, we beat Paraguay who were ten places ahead of us in 2010.

SuperInfinity

It's already been pointed out that people jumped on the bandwagon to fire McCarthy and that was a mistake, I also distinctly remember people chanting "Jack Must Go! Jack Must Go!", after one or two bad performances... people get this feeling in them and like a bit of drama and the bit of a power trip. Where are those people who cried for Jack Charlton to go now and what are they thinking?

I think Trap should stay also, two or three bad results is not enough to say he's doing a really bad job never mind fire him. It's hard to assess club managers, nevermind international managers who only play a couple of times a year. At least 75% of the performance is based on the players, do you really think it's all going to change after getting rid of Trap? I think it would be a terrible mistake. You have to have a little faith, a man like Trapattoni knows better than everyone here. It's one thing to say he's not worth his price-tag, it's another to say we should drop him outright.

In the analysis after the game tonight, something that really annoyed me was Brady kept dismissing criticisms about Trap's selections by saying: "at that time he was busy qualifying for the 2012 euros", as if it were some kind of magic card that beat all. After he said it about 5 times Dunphy exploded and nearly knocked over his glass of water!!! If Brady's going to be Trap's immediate defence right after a game I feel sorry for the poor man!

Higher

eagle eye wrote: »

Wrong, we beat Paraguay who were ten places ahead of us in 2010.

We also beat Italy if my memory is correct. 2-0.

Idbatterim

Who has hammered us? Germany did last week.

As for Spain, they hammered Italy by the same score a couple of weeks later.

So other than Germany what teams have hammered us?

we did take hammering in euros, but how many of them were Shay Givens fault (totally out of character for him), and taking them out, would they still be considered hammerings?

Keano

Predalien wrote: »

Do you even realise this phrase doesn't make sense, if you're going to keep saying it it's unbeaten in 39 out of 51 games. The way you put it means either 39 or 51 games unbeaten.

Could also say we've won less than 50% of games!

PhiloCypher

Higher wrote: »

Who has hammered us? Germany did last week.

As for Spain, they hammered Italy by the same score a couple of weeks later.

So other than Germany what teams have hammered us?

Who cares that they beat Italy or by how much the point is teams we were competitive with before under trap we are succumbing to now with nary a wimper.

gosplan

Higher wrote: »

I suppose the logic comes from 39/51 games unbeaten.

He doesn't trust our players to go chasing the opposition around the pitch and not get pulled out of shape. So we defend deep, hoping to keep the opposition to long shots (Given) and crosses (Dunne, Sledge).*

There's a reson Dunne and Sledge look so good playing for Trap but like donkeys playing for their club. They sit deep with loads of cover and basically spend 90 minutes doing nothing but getting in heroic blocks and clearing headers - they never have to worry about following attackers out, people getting in behind them or playing the ball. All they do is look like heroes.

And it's fairly short sighted of people to say the Russia performance from Dunne was all down to him and not down to Trap but obviously the Irish sports fan mentality dictates that we view it as Dunne turning into superman when he puts of the green shirt and not some good judgement by a manager who's playing to his CB's strengths.




*and he would have been right 10 years ago but the game has moved on and any pass and move, technically gifted team with an extra man in midfield can just keep possession and tear us apart anyway.

niallo27

The thing I can't understand is the hatred their seems to be for trap since the euros, I have heard people on here and at work calling him a **** and a wanker and he should **** off back to Italy, after all he did for us he doesn't deserve that abuse.

doncarlos

Higher wrote: »

Why should he go to matches? Surely you can see a hell of a lot more watching the match on a DVD.

The fact that you even think that shows how much you know about football.

niallo27

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Who cares that they beat Italy or by how much the point is teams we were competitive with before under trap we are succumbing to now with nary a wimper.

Are you talking about back to the McCarthy days, we had a great team back then, is their any Irish player these days that would make an Irish side when McCarthy was manager.

niallo27

gosplan wrote: »

He doesn't trust our players to go chasing the opposition around the pitch and not get pulled out of shape. So we defend deep, hoping to keep the opposition to long shots (Given) and crosses (Dunne, Sledge).*

There's a reson Dunne and Sledge look so good playing for Trap but like donkeys playing for their club. They sit deep with loads of cover and basically spend 90 minutes doing nothing but getting in heroic blocks and clearing headers - they never have to worry about following attackers out, people getting in behind them or playing the ball. All they do is look like heroes.

And it's fairly short sighted of people to say the Russia performance from Dunne was all down to him and not down to Trap but obviously the Irish sports fan mentality dictates that we view it as Dunne turning into superman when he puts of the green shirt and not some good judgement by a manager who's playing to his CB's strengths.




*and he would have been right 10 years ago but the game has moved on and any pass and move, technically gifted team with an extra man in midfield can just keep possession and tear us apart anyway.

Dunne was player of the season for city 2 years I think plus he looked great for villa when he first joined.

SuperInfinity

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Who cares that they beat Italy or by how much the point is teams we were competitive with before under trap we are succumbing to now with nary a wimper.

That's not true. Italy only scored their second goal near the very end, and until then we were highly competitive with one of the best teams in the world.

Ireland lose consistently to the world's best teams over and over throughout their history, by one goal or more. It's not all the manager's fault.

Predalien

niallo27 wrote: »

The thing I can't understand is the hatred their seems to be for trap since the euros, I have heard people on here and at work calling him a **** and a wanker and he should **** off back to Italy, after all he did for us he doesn't deserve that abuse.

I haven't noticed anything like that but anyone who engages in that is an idiot. Personally I haven't been happy with how he sets out his team, I don't like the way he falls out with players because of poor communication (or how he publicly scolds players), I don't think he's integrated good players when the chance has been there.

On a football level I actually don't mind direct football, I admire for instance how Stoke make teams work but what really gets me is that unlike a good direct team (like Stoke) we don't impose our game on the other team, we just let them play and hope they're not good enough to take advantage, problem is we've been mauled when they have been good enough.

Augmerson

niallo27 wrote: »

The thing I can't understand is the hatred their seems to be for trap since the euros, I have heard people on here and at work calling him a **** and a wanker and he should **** off back to Italy, after all he did for us he doesn't deserve that abuse.

No, he doesn't in fairness. I'm not happy with his management but there's no need for that.

SirDelboy18

Enough of this please. It is obvious that he has to go, for the following reasons:

1. He does not do his job. - He never goes to games to see the players and thus cannot formulate an accurate judgement of players abilities and form.

2. He displays a lack of knowledge of the available players - He confused Marc Wilson with another player and left him out of squads. This is a disgrace, especially considering Wilson's great form last year. Also, he was not aware that Ian Harte was Irish. Baffling.

3. He has alienated many players - Steven Reid, Andy Reid, Shane Long, Darron Gibson, Kevin Foley, James McClean, Stephen Kelly.

4. He has consistently refused to pick our best players, or at least give them a decent chance to show their ability - Ciaran Clark, Marc Wilson (until today), Seamus Coleman (until recently), Stephen Kelly, Alex Pearce, Wes Hoolahan, Seamus Pilkington, Shane Long, James McClean, Darron Gibson post-Everton move, James McCarthy (until recently)

5. He selects players who are below the level of those that he leaves out of the team - Stephen Ward, Sean St Ledger, Darren O' Dea (He plays for Toronto for f*ck sake), Simon Cox, Glenn Whelan, Paul Green, Andy Keogh.

6. He displayed horrendous preparation at the Euros - He did not alter his system to take on teams more technically proficient than us, teams that he knew we would face months in advance. He was given the warning by Russia that the system was redundant against technical teams. He did not heed it.

7. He refuses to change system - Regardless of the opposition it is 4-4-2, and we play long-ball stuff. Everybody changes their formation to take on Spain. But not Ireland

8. He presided over the worst major international tournament performance in recent European history, with 3 insipid, horrendous performances.

9. He presided over a shambolic performance against Kazakhstan and the worst home defeat in God knows how many years.

10. He consistently refers to our players as "inferior". A masterstroke? Eh no. His carry on after the Euros and Germany games implied that he felt we would never win those games.

Just to also point out, the two games that people always refer to are the ones V Italy (who went onto finish LAST in their WC group, below New Zealand) and V France (who went on to finish last in their WC group amid mutiny). These were also over 2 years ago.
Trap Out.

Predalien

niallo27 wrote: »

Are you talking about back to the McCarthy days, we had a great team back then, is their any Irish player these days that would make an Irish side when McCarthy was manager.

Dunne (instead of Cunningham, Breen), Long (to partner Robbie), McGeady or McClean (instead of McAteer), McCarthy (instead of Holland or Kinsella), Wilson (Ian Harte was ****), O'Shea (instead of Gary Kelly).

Mick had some good players but there was a lot that were a similar level to what we have now.

Unearthly

Of course he should stay

1) His track record for keeping us competitive for 4 years has earned him this
2) Realistically Germany will win the group at a canter. No manager can come in and win us the group. I think Trap will have us fighting for second
3) Too expensive to sack

Before the Staunton era I was similar to the people in this thread baying for blood for the likes of Kerr and McCarthy. I was wrong. The Staunton era still haunts me to this day. It was my wake up call. We are not that different from Wales and Scotland in terms of size and player talent available, and they have achieved far less than us in last 12 years.

Carlos_Ray

Here just a few reasons why I think he should go.

1) Even though he achieved the goal of qualifying for the Euro's ( barely and with a lot of luck) 5 out of the last 6 competitive games have been a shambles. Tonights victory against a country with a population less than the capacity of the Aviva should not be allowed to overshadow the fact that he has lost the dressing room.

2) He didn't prepare for the obvious retirements. It seems he thought he could just ride it out and leave the job before we lost our most high profile players. He made absolutely no attempt to induct youth players. Short term thinking has come back to bite him in the ass.

3)He constantly complains about the quality of players available and on more than a few occasions he has openly criticised/rowed with some of our most promising players. Hardly conducive to good morale in the squad.

4)Trap supporters say that the players he's working with are rubbish, and cite the fact that only Aiden McGeady is playing in the champions league. However, they conveniently forget to mention that Ireland can pick an entire squad of players who play regular football in the Premier league. A luxury that most nations of our size can only dream of. Despite this, Trap insists on picking players that he likes personally. Cox, McShane, Green, O'Dea have been routinely chosen over premiership players like Wilson, Clark, McCarthy, McClean and Long!

5) He's one of the highest paid international managers in the world but hardly spends any time in the country and rarely even bothers to watch the pool of Irish players that play in England. He picked a team four years ago and thats all he did.... he never changed it. He could have stayed in Milan and just faxed " same team" to the FAI before every game.

6) Attendances have dropped because people don't want to pay to watch the style of football he plays. When he was scraping results ( and lets face it that's mostly what happened) things were bad, but now that we're an embarrassment to football, things will only get worse. The FAI will have to give away free tickets to the Greece game next month. Can't see many people willing to pay to see that crap.

If we are to have any chance of competing for second place we need to make the change now. I really hope Keane follows him out the door too. Talk about overstaying your welcome! At this rate Long will be in his thirties before he gets a proper run in the team. All because Keane won't bow out gracefully.

SuperInfinity

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

1. He does not do his job. - He never goes to games to see the players and thus cannot formulate an accurate judgement of players abilities and form.

That's not true, he often goes to premiership games. He doesn't go every week or two no, but to say he "never" goes is completely false and confabulation on your part. Some people do not regard is as highly important, he can watch players perform on tv or video and get an idea that way, I'll leave that for people to decide for themselves.

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

5. He selects players who are below the level of those that he leaves out of the team - Stephen Ward, Sean St Ledger, Darren O' Dea (He plays for Toronto for f*ck sake), Simon Cox, Glenn Whelan, Paul Green, Andy Keogh.

You made pretty much the same point above several times. Well Trap has his own opinions on players and their abilities. It's a valid criticism, sure.

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

8. He presided over the worst major international tournament performance in recent European history, with 3 insipid, horrendous performances.

That's not fair and you know it. If Stan or Kerr had gotten there, they would almost definitely have had even worse performances there, in particular Stan who only for some crazy results between other nations wouldn't even have gotten 3rd in the group or even been in contention for second place with a few games to go.

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

10. He consistently refers to our players as "inferior". A masterstroke? Eh no. His carry on after the Euros and Germany games implied that he felt we would never win those games.

I have never heard him refer to the players as "inferior", nevermind consistently. Does he really consistently use this word, as you have quoted it?

niallo27

Predalien wrote: »

Dunne (instead of Cunningham, Breen), Long (to partner Robbie), McGeady or McClean (instead of McAteer), McCarthy (instead of Holland or Kinsella), Wilson (Ian Harte was ****), O'Shea (instead of Gary Kelly).

Mick had some good players but there was a lot that were a similar level to what we have now.

Ah no come on, Dunne played under mick, McGeady is shocking man come on, McLean has had one good season, he has been poor this year for Sunderland. Long maybe yes. Harte was a decent full back with a great free kick, Wilson is only starting out. McCarthy is ok. I always though holland was underrated.

Carlos_Ray

SuperInfinity wrote: »

That's not fair and you know it. If Stan or Kerr had gotten there, they would almost definitely have had even worse performances there, in particular Stan who only for some crazy results between other nations wouldn't even have gotten 3rd in the group or even been in contention for second place with a few games to go.

The other poster stated a fact, you're countering it with conjecture.

Trap did manage the team to one of the worst ever performances of any team in the history of the Euro's. If he takes credit for the good ( Qualifying) should he not also take the blame for the bad? Or Perhaps he'd do what he did on Friday night and blame the players?

weldoninhio

SuperInfinity wrote: »

That's not true. Italy only scored their second goal near the very end, and until then we were highly competitive with 10 men of one of the best teams in the world who finished bottom of their WC group with 2 points.

Ireland lose consistently to the world's best teams over and over throughout their history, by one goal or more. It's not all the manager's fault.

Fixed your point

Predalien

niallo27 wrote: »

Ah no come on, Dunne played under mick, McGeady is shocking man come on, McLean has had one good season, he has been poor this year for Sunderland. Long maybe yes. Harte was a decent full back with a great free kick, Wilson is only starting out. McCarthy is ok. I always though holland was underrated.

You asked if there were ANY players that would get into Mick's team/plans, I found 7 players of a comparatively similar level to Mick's first choice players.

niallo27

Predalien wrote: »

You asked if there were ANY players that would get into Mick's team/plans, I found 7 players of a comparatively similar level to Mick's first choice players.

That's your opinion I suppose, I just think its bonkers, your giving the players today way too much credit, they are very adverage.

applehunter

We qualified to the Euros under his stewardship.

SuperInfinity

weldoninhio wrote: »

Fixed your point

derrrr.... their world cup group was two years ago. It was meaningless to what happened at Euro 2012 where they got to the final. No offence but what a stupid point to make.

Carlos_Ray

applehunter wrote: »

We qualified to the Euros under his stewardship.

Wow that's it. This debate has a winner.

adamski8

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Who cares that they beat Italy or by how much the point is teams we were competitive with before under trap we are succumbing to now with nary a wimper.

Ah yes those good old days playing against the mighty cyprus, we were very 'competitive' against them alright