A Defense of Giovanni Trappatoni

Fr Tod Umptious

noodler wrote: »

It all comes down to us not realistically being able to afford a loss in Stockholm.

Yes, and based on what you have seen do far this campaign from Ireland can you see us getting away with points in Stockholm ?

I certainly cannot.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes, and based on what you have seen do far this campaign from Ireland can you see us getting away with points in Stockholm ?

I certainly cannot.

Sweden will certainly be favourites but it's hardly beyond the bounds of possibly that Ireland could nick a draw.

noodler

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes, and based on what you have seen do far this campaign from Ireland can you see us getting away with points in Stockholm ?

I certainly cannot.

(A) Armenia 0-1 (W)
(A) Bulgaria 1-1 (D)
(A) Italy 1-1 (D)
(A) Slovakia 1-1 (D)
(A) France 1-1 (D)*
(A) Russia 0-0 (D)
(A) Macedonia 0-2 (W)
(A) Cyprus 1-2 (W)
(A) Montenagro 0-0 (D)
(A) Estonia 0-4 (W)

*I won't mention Andorra, Georiga and the Faroes for obvious reasons plus the fact the Georiga game was in neutral territory.

Honestly, I can't see us winning but it is hardly beyond concievable that we could get a point. Westwood needs games before March, as does Dunne. It would help if Coleman continues playing RB for Everton as well.

tok9

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ok so we have 6 points by beating the two worst teams in the group, and in one of those games we did not deserve a point let alone three but we managed to get them.

So what we have left are five games v the better teams in the group and 2 games against the minnows.

Based on the way we are playing I am giving us the following very optimistic predictions

Sweden (A) - Loss
Austria (H) - Draw
Faroe Islands (H) - Win
Sweden (H) - Draw
Austria (A) - Draw
Germany (A) - Loss
Kaz (H) - Win

That give us a very optimistic 9 points to add to our current total of 6, giving us 15, which will not be enough for second.

Sweden have the following games and being very optimistic (from a ROI POV) they may be the follwing

ROI (H) - Draw
Austria (A) - Draw
Faroe (H) - Win
ROI (A) - Loss
KAZ (A) - Win
Austria (H) - Draw
Germany (H) - Loss

That gives them 9 points, to add to their 7 makes 16.

So being very generous to Ireland and very hopeful that Sweden f**k up they will still beat us to second place.

Just 1 quick point on your predictions. If Ireland beat Sweden in the top predictions as you have predicted in the 2nd predictions then Ireland will finish 2nd. Same with the first draw loss prediction. (I know you are being hopeful in one and optimistic in the other but might as well keep those results the same)

Anyway you have also proved my point that Ireland do have a chance of 2nd if they lose out by only a point. (Again, I know these are just silly predicitions)

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You cannot overlook the performance and just look at the result, Ireland v Kazakhstan was an example of that, you will not get away with that sort of performance against teams ranked 2nd, 2st and 59th in the world.

the time for a change was this week to get a new manager to bring in the best players and play a 'less rigid' style, bust alas we are left with this until this time next year at least.

I'm not overlooking the terrible performances, that's exactly what they were and believe me even though I'm arguing for him I'm not pro Trap either. In fact if Ireland had lost/drawn with Kaz I probably would be saying it's time to go, just to show the fine line in Football these days.

But this really isn't the time for change. There would be no benefit from sacking him other than lowering of expectations. Right now, I'm expecting us to fight for 2nd place. If we lose out and play **** all the way I'd say he can go.

If we looked promising and lost out I'd be open to him staying.

My 2 ideal scenarios are we either qualify or with 2-3 games to go have no hope of qualifying and bring in a young upcoming manager to get to grips with the role before the next game because we seriously can't afford anything else.

Just the argument on our best players, we'll see who he starts over the next few weeks, but he hasn't exactly left out outstanding players. They are better then players he starts, but not by a huge margin.

Cox and McGeady are 2 players that baffle me, I would like both to be replaced by Coleman and McClean. It's the one thing that I hate but your never going to agree on everything.

tok9

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

according to you maybe, but then again i be realistic
we don't have the players, we can't pick a good starting 11 , even if players picked that people want here
and i would say you another anti trap person and would mind what you post

I would agree with him, they are very difficult to read.

Rekop dog

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes, and based on what you have seen do far this campaign from Ireland can you see us getting away with points in Stockholm ?

I certainly cannot.

Based on our available squad regardless of who is picked an away point against Sweden is unlikely, not out of the question but they'd be odds on whoever was managing us.

Edit: think you're also overestimating Austria in you're predictions. We can certainly beat them at home! Points total of 15 isn't over optimistic, if anything is bordering on the pessimistic.

cournioni

We might as well just get on with it. Trappatoni will be here until late next year, as long as he has got the wake up call and realised that over the past number of games, the performance has not been good enough.

We are no world beaters, and we have been playing the likes of Spain and Germany but we should not be hammered by any of them. We are better than that.

kitakyushu

One consideration I had since the news is I wonder will Trap change his tune now that he knows his job is safe and actually take a gamble on letting us play?

I know it was only the Faroes but we did play a bit of football in that game in the second half and demonstrated we're not completely useless.

By comparison his approach v Germany was actually self-defeating imho and we should expect more of the same if he reverts back to type March. At least if we play might (and I mean might) have a chance.

Augmerson

Irish Times correspondent Paddy Agnew was talking to Pay Kenny today on the Radio, had this to say.

RTE NEWS wrote:

When it was put to Agnew by Pat Kenny that the FAI might be putting conditions to Trapattoni that he would find impossible to fulfil, such as being at matches in England every weekend and attending matches in the Airtricity League, Agnew was certain what Trapattoni’s response would be.

“For the time being we don’t know what the new terms are, if there are new terms. But if those sort of terms were outlined or suggested to Trapattoni he would absolutely walk away,” said Agnew.

“I have spoken to him before about the criticisms that he does not follow players enough and he does not go to enough games in England and he absolutely rejects that criticism. He says Marco Tardelli goes to hundreds of games every year and Trapattoni trusts Tardelli’s opinion.

“’I’m fully informed about all the Irish players’, is the way he would put it. As for the League of Ireland, I don’t think he would see that as a serious prospect at all.

“He claims that once Tardelli has highlighted a player to him that he eventually gets to look at that player at some point, even if it’s only on DVD.
“He says that there are not that many extraordinary new Roy Keanes popping up every day of the week in English football for him to go and have a look at.”

What do ye make of this?

Fr Tod Umptious

kitakyushu wrote: »

One consideration I had since the news is I wonder will Trap change his tune now that he knows his job is safe and actually take a gamble on letting us play?

I know it was only the Faroes but we did play a bit of football in that game in the second half and demonstrated we're not completely useless.

By comparison his approach v Germany was actually self-defeating imho and we should expect more of the same if he reverts back to type March. At least if we play might (and I mean might) have a chance.

No way will Trap change his tactic, he is too stubborn, and having his job safe makes it all the less likely that he will do anything.

Augmerson wrote: »

Irish Times correspondent Paddy Agnew was talking to Pay Kenny today on the Radio, had this to say.

What do ye make of this?

It just goes to show that the FAI cannot get the cash together to pay him off and hire a new manager.

Any manager would have expected the boot on Friday night but the situation here means that the FAI have to stick with him until his contract expires.
All this talk of telling him he must go to premiership matches etc is just window dressing.

Father Damo

I would be somewhat happy if, as part of the agreement with Trap, they were sending Liam Brady back on board. We certainly played better and had less team conflicts when he was there to articulate exactly what Trap was saying.

homerjay2005

the thing is, Swedens draw with Germany is a huge disaster for us.

if we finish level with Sweden, is it head to head or goal difference that matters? i think it is head to head, meaning that we need to beat them once as i cannot see us taking a point off Germany. they may even take another point off them at home as germany may have already qualified by then.

assuming we beat Austria twice, we should end up on 18 points. two draws with Sweden puts them on 21, us on 20. at the very least, we need to get a draw there in march and then take it from there.

tok9

Father Damo wrote: »

I would be somewhat happy if, as part of the agreement with Trap, they were sending Liam Brady back on board. We certainly played better and had less team conflicts when he was there to articulate exactly what Trap was saying.

Why did he leave again?

Father Damo

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the thing is, Swedens draw with Germany is a huge disaster for us.

if we finish level with Sweden, is it head to head or goal difference that matters? i think it is head to head, meaning that we need to beat them once as i cannot see us taking a point off Germany. they may even take another point off them at home as germany may have already qualified by then.

assuming we beat Austria twice, we should end up on 18 points. two draws with Sweden puts them on 21, us on 20. at the very least, we need to get a draw there in march and then take it from there.

But if we beat, or at least draw Germany, we.....


Ah nevermind :pac:

Father Damo

tok9 wrote: »

Why did he leave again?

Said it was too much hassle combining his job at Arsenal with the Irish job.

Augmerson

Father Damo wrote: »

I would be somewhat happy if, as part of the agreement with Trap, they were sending Liam Brady back on board. We certainly played better and had less team conflicts when he was there to articulate exactly what Trap was saying.

Something definitely changed in our setup when Brady left. I reckon, as you say, he was good at putting points across from what Trap was saying to the squad. Trap doesn't speak good English himself. Sometimes I don't know what he is saying in interviews.

Fr Tod Umptious

Augmerson wrote: »

Something definitely changed in our setup when Brady left. I reckon, as you say, he was good at putting points across from what Trap was saying to the squad. Trap doesn't speak good English himself. Sometimes I don't know what he is saying in interviews.

That has noting to do with it, it's the players fault for not being able to speak better Italian

KELTICKNIGHTT

noodler wrote: »

We have a good 11 to pick from.

I completely agree that we lack strength in depth generally though. Even still, our defence was only ripped apart by four of the best teams in the world.

Specifically though, I have massive doubts about Westwood.

He has played two and a half games in the best part of a year - he has to consider a move away from Sunderland.

i hope trap picks players we have and hasn't looked at yet.
why are ireland so poor at keeping the ball and passing , always lose the ball under 30 seconds , at best a minute

Laois_Man

There's a possibilty here that the FAI are being smart arses and imposing new conditions on Trap that would force him to resign and therefore not be entitled to a pay off.

Maybe they are being underhanded in all of this!

KELTICKNIGHTT

listermint wrote: »

This whole post is an example of what i was writing about. Incoherent i would imagine i would have the ability to understand you in person but missing words and incomplete sentences are not adequate to portray your sentiments on the matter.


And what does 'would mind what you post' mean ? Is that some sort of thinly veiled threat.

dumphy
instead of insulting and coming off topic , be more positive , or is it when you can't answer what im asking , you try this bull, bye

kitakyushu

TBH I'd love to see him having to fly from Milan to Norwich etc each weekend and sit in the stand with a big pissed off expression on his face during MOTD.

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

There's a possibilty here that the FAI are being smart arses and imposing new conditions on Trap that would force him to resign and therefore not be entitled to a pay off.

Maybe they are being underhanded in all of this!

What, they are changing his contract?

I don't think even Stan would fall for that one.

KELTICKNIGHTT

tok9 wrote: »

I would agree with him, they are very difficult to read.

off topic again:rolleyes:
can you read this

KELTICKNIGHTT

cournioni wrote: »

We might as well just get on with it. Trappatoni will be here until late next year, as long as he has got the wake up call and realised that over the past number of games, the performance has not been good enough.

We are no world beaters, and we have been playing the likes of Spain and Germany but we should not be hammered by any of them. We are better than that.

true , we lost a good goalkeeper in given.
westwood not great , our defense was crap too, all Germany had to do was wait as they knew they get the ball in a minute or less , why would Spain or Germany worry, Sweden are better at holding onto the ball than Ireland .

KELTICKNIGHTT

kitakyushu wrote: »

One consideration I had since the news is I wonder will Trap change his tune now that he knows his job is safe and actually take a gamble on letting us play?

I know it was only the Faroes but we did play a bit of football in that game in the second half and demonstrated we're not completely useless.

By comparison his approach v Germany was actually self-defeating imho and we should expect more of the same if he reverts back to type March. At least if we play might (and I mean might) have a chance.

i hope he does try other players, try different setups, go to matches and talk to players

Laois_Man

rarnes1 wrote: »

What, they are changing his contract?

I don't think even Stan would fall for that one.

Read the link posted a few pages back.....

"When it was put to Agnew by Pat Kenny that the FAI might be putting conditions to Trapattoni that he would find impossible to fulfil, such as being at matches in England every weekend and attending matches in the Airtricity League, Agnew was certain what Trapattoni’s response would be.

“For the time being we don’t know what the new terms are, if there are new terms. But if those sort of terms were outlined or suggested to Trapattoni he would absolutely walk away,” said Agnew".

That probably would not be an actual change of contract literally!

Fr Tod Umptious

Laois_Man wrote: »

There's a possibilty here that the FAI are being smart arses and imposing new conditions on Trap that would force him to resign and therefore not be entitled to a pay off.

Maybe they are being underhanded in all of this!

Well if that was the case then I would have to tip my cap to the FAI, it would be a master stroke.

However I don't think it is and I think the stipulations about going to games are just window dressing that make for good sound bites

Typical Friday night conversation between Trap and FAI
FAI - Hi Trap, just calling to see will you be going to Swansea v Norwich tomorrow

Mauela - Trap Ciao, chiamato solo per vedere vi andare a Swansea v Norwich domani

Trap - No, ho le ginocchia doloranti, più devo tagliare cespuglio di rose e foglie in giardino rastrello

Manuela - No, I have sore knees, plus I must trim rose bush and rake leaves in garden

FAI - Ah Ok, maybe you might get to Sunderland on Monday night, or WBA next week, sure well see.

Augmerson

Laois_Man wrote: »

Read the link posted a few pages back.....

"When it was put to Agnew by Pat Kenny that the FAI might be putting conditions to Trapattoni that he would find impossible to fulfil, such as being at matches in England every weekend and attending matches in the Airtricity League, Agnew was certain what Trapattoni’s response would be.

“For the time being we don’t know what the new terms are, if there are new terms. But if those sort of terms were outlined or suggested to Trapattoni he would absolutely walk away,” said Agnew".

That probably would not be an actual change of contract literally!

Well, apparently, Trap and his people do what to know exactly what the FAI mean when they say they back him and what reassurances they will give, so it's a two way street there. They say they will back him but under certain conditions, so might not be a change of contract (which afaik if both parties haven't agreed to do is not legal?)

Laois_Man

Augmerson wrote: »

They say they will back him but under certain conditions, so might not be a change of contract (which afaik if both parties haven't agreed to do is not legal?)

To me, it would seem it's perfectly legal if the conditions are about Trap not being let away with doing a half arsed job where the FAI can say not doing certain tasks is a breaking of the original contract and we're gonna be stubborn about it from now on!


It's only a theory!

kitakyushu

All joking aside, if he is away in Italy for large section of the year then what exactly is he doing for us?

I mean is Trap actually a €4m manager and we're getting him on the cheap because we're only using him part time, or is the money he get from FAI/OBrien suppose to represent payment for a fulltime job?

homerjay2005

kitakyushu wrote: »

All joking aside, if he is away in Italy for large section of the year then what exactly is he doing for us?

the same as every international manager, f8ck all. Capello got what was it, 7million a year for England and id be pretty sure, spend 80% of the year at home, maybe flying twice a month apart from games, to watch a few games.

clubberlang12

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the same as every international manager, f8ck all. Capello got what was it, 7million a year for England and id be pretty sure, spend 80% of the year at home, maybe flying twice a month apart from games, to watch a few games.

I'm nearly sure Capello spent alot of his time living in London during his tenure and was often at 3 games a weekend to view English player. I also recall him missing his son's wedding, again i may be wrong, for a friendly for England leading up to the Euro's.

Hank Scorpio

clubberlang12 wrote: »

I'm nearly sure Capello spent alot of his time living in London during his tenure and was often at 3 games a weekend to view English player. I also recall him missing his son's wedding, again i may be wrong, for a friendly for England leading up to the Euro's.

You're right, I remember the camera showing Capello at games every weekend on MOTD etc

BOHtox

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

So the rot continues.... attendances will drop drastically.

best fans in the world!

Idbatterim

was listening to radio earlier and good point was made, that we had 7 senior players out for the match on Friday, Duff and Given through retirements and the Dunne, St Ledger, Duff, Keane and Whelan. Bloody pity about Sweden drawing with Germany, and as much as fridays night result was an embarrassment, I dont even know how I could begin to describe what happened to Germany, at home, 4 goals up, with 35 minutes left, when it comes to monumental F**k ups, i dont think Ireland have ever even come close to that!

Xavi6

SlickRic

apparently...now, don't shít yourselves to much with excitement here...

you may see Giovanni Trapattoni at the Norwich v Arsenal game tomorrow.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

tok9

SlickRic wrote: »

apparently...now, don't shít yourselves to much with excitement here...

you may see Giovanni Trapattoni at the Norwich v Arsenal game tomorrow.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

:eek:

Change is coming!

kitakyushu

Idbatterim wrote: »

was listening to radio earlier and good point was made, that we had 7 senior players out for the match on Friday, Duff and Given through retirements and the Dunne, St Ledger, Duff, Keane and Whelan. Bloody pity about Sweden drawing with Germany, and as much as fridays night result was an embarrassment, I dont even know how I could begin to describe what happened to Germany, at home, 4 goals up, with 35 minutes left, when it comes to monumental F**k ups, i dont think Ireland have ever even come close to that!

I'd say part of that is because Ireland have never(?) been 4 goals up against a decent team in a competitive game to begin with or have ever played open enough to let it happen.

But yeah, I agree that we have nothing to compare with that or have let in four goals in 30mins from such a good position.

Closest results you could claim we threw away that I can recall:

1991 Poland 3-1 at 76 (drew 3-3)
1995 Austria 1-0 at 68 (lost 3-1).
2000 Holland 2-0 at 68 (drew 2-2)
2005 Israel 2-0 at 11mins (managed to be 2-2 at HT/FT)
2007 Cyprus 1-0 at 8mins, 2-2 at HT (lost 5-2)

Paully D

Trapattoni just pictured at the Norwich v Arsenal game. But I was told he never goes to games?

clubberlang12

Paully D wrote: »

Trapattoni just pictured at the Norwich v Arsenal game. But I was told he never goes to games?

Seems to have stemmed from the meeting between the FAI board of directors and subsequently Trap and Delaney's meeting yesterday that Trap has to start personally attending more games to assess Irish players. About time too.

SantryRed

Paully D wrote: »

Trapattoni just pictured at the Norwich v Arsenal game. But I was told he never goes to games?

He is being forced to now.

kitakyushu

Paully D wrote: »

Trapattoni just pictured at the Norwich v Arsenal game. But I was told he never goes to games?

Did he look thrilled to be taking in a game on his day off?

Paully D

Xavi6 wrote: »

That is absolutely fantastic :pac:

Paully D

Paully D wrote: »

Trapattoni just pictured at the Norwich v Arsenal game. But I was told he never goes to games?

He was told buck up his act and show an interest during the week. He is getting €2m per year since 2008 and this is his first game attended.

kitakyushu

The funny thing is I get the impression the FAI are only making him go to games because they've decided that's what the public want him to do, rather than because it's actually something the FAI want or something that they think will make any difference either way to his performance as manager.

If going to matches was so important in their opinion and something they could clearly get for their money then why weren't they making him do it from the start? It's seems a fairly obvious thing you might expect from a manager, even one who choose to live in Milan rather than Malahide.

PR at it's finest / most blatant.

Soups123

kitakyushu wrote: »

The funny thing is I get the impression the FAI are only making him go to games because they've decided that's what the public want him to do, rather than because it's actually something the FAI want or something that they think will make any difference either way to his performance as manager.

If going to matches was so important in their opinion and something they could clearly get for their money then why weren't they making him do it from the start? It's seems a fairly obvious thing you might expect from a manager, even one who choose to live in Milan rather than Malahide.

PR at it's finest / most blatant.

Agree it's total PR, they've a few friendlies coming up and I reckon he has been told to pull in some players the fans are calling for to try get bums on seats. A Hoolihan, Clarke, Brady etc will pull some fans in. Trapatoni showing up at games now is all part of the PR for the next few games.

Aenaes

Deleted User wrote: »

He is getting €2m per year since 2008 and this is his first game attended.

False.

Corholio

Not sure how people can defend a manager not going to games to watch players. He's paid to manage the country and pick the beat team he has, not the best team Tardelli sees. It's a small crime that he hasn't been upto now to be honest, especially a guy getting a kings ransom. Now more than ever he should going to watch players, as he seems to have very little tactical awareness of the modern game as it is now.

I blame the F.A.I. a lot for this too, they should have been making him do this long ago.

aindriu80

I think we could have put up a bit of a better fight against Croatia, Spain, Italy and Germany and no matter how well Trap is defended those games we were absolutely terrible.

Glad to see Trap at the norwich game though he should have given more games to the fringe players and be on better terms with all of them.

If we took our league more serious I think we would get a different reaction from any international manager. He hasn't anything wrong but there isn't a whole pile for him to get wrong.