Sub60Swim

pgibbo

Hi All,
Just wondering how many on here will be attending these sessions? Based on the progress others have made with interested I'd say they're a must for anyone in Dublin looking to improve their swim this winter.

P.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

Hi All,
Just wondering how many on here will be attending these sessions? Based on the progress others have made with interested I'd say they're a must for anyone in Dublin looking to improve their swim this winter.

P.

From what I have seen this year the key thing to a fast swim is a short course.

BTH

I'm signed up anyway. I hope if goes a little better than Mondays swim.

Can swimmers bonk (the cycling kind, not the other kind )??

tunney

BTH wrote: »

I'm signed up anyway. I hope if goes a little better than Mondays swim.

Can swimmers bonk (the cycling kind, not the other kind )??

Assuming that this is some sort of "silver bullet" approach to training.
Who are the coaches and what is so special about the sessions?

interested

tunney wrote: »

From what I have seen this year the key thing to a fast swim is a short course.

flippers, a €1000 wetsuit and a downstream swim would also play a big part in a fast split

@pgibbo - Thanks for the bump.
@BTH - most definitely, I'd an epic one around 6.30 this morning on a set of 16 1's but I think all the alcohol from oktoberfest is now out of the system.
@Tunney - as per facebook, no silver bullet - btw if you or anyone else has that down at this stage please write the book and let me know where I pre-order .

The primary coach (Trish Cullen) brings over 15 years teaching and coaching experience to the table and I (Mark Waters) bring along open water and triathlon experience and 3 years of coaching. I've been described more as 'special needs' rather than 'special' over the years so again - it is what it says on the tin. A session that should nicely compliment work already being done in the pool - with the emphasis on making people swim faster (by effective coaching AND stroke correction - not just one or the other).

--- the details on facebook are what they are ... but whats emerging now is there'll be swimmers from 4 different tri clubs and a masters swimming club attending. Not that I encourage healthy competition during training or anything but that alone should spur people along nicely.

Also, at the end of the 10 week block ... I'll happily publish the sessions themselves on facebook since, as above, there really is nothing special about them. To paraphrase Frank Carson - its in the way that I tell 'em.

StaggerLee

From their facebook page:

"An example of a 60 min session might consist of ...
- a warm up done as 400 fs - descend each 100 so that you're at 80% in last 50 of continuous 400
- a set of 16*100's on a range of times (fast lane was off 1.45, middle lane off 2.00, third lane off 2.15) with the objective that every 4th 100 was done to or below a target time for each lane (so sub 1.30, sub 1.50, sub 2)
- 100 easy
- 6*25 drills, sculling - to cool down, ensure swimmers are getting a feel for the water

This would be considered as a initial session back for people to get a feel for the water again but also to get the engines ticking over from their comfort zones."

For the set of 16 * 100's, would there be any breaks in there?

Also, what is skulling?

BTH

tunney wrote: »

Assuming that this is some sort of "silver bullet" approach to training.
Who are the coaches and what is so special about the sessions?

Silver bullet doesn't exist. I expect these sessions to hurt. One of the coaches is Interested, who coaches me (and the rest of my club) on a Monday evening. The other coach apparently used to coach Barry Murphy amongst others.

tunney

interested wrote: »

flippers, a €1000 wetsuit and a downstream swim would also play a big part in a fast split

@pgibbo - Thanks for the bump.
@BTH - most definitely, I'd an epic one around 6.30 this morning on a set of 16 1's but I think all the alcohol from oktoberfest is now out of the system.
@Tunney - as per facebook, no silver bullet - btw if you or anyone else has that down at this stage please write the book and let me know where I pre-order .

The primary coach (Trish Cullen) brings over 15 years teaching and coaching experience to the table and I (Mark Waters) bring along open water and triathlon experience and 3 years of coaching. I've been described more as 'special needs' rather than 'special' over the years so again - it is what it says on the tin. A session that should nicely compliment work already being done in the pool - with the emphasis on making people swim faster (by effective coaching AND stroke correction - not just one or the other).

--- the details on facebook are what they are ... but whats emerging now is there'll be swimmers from 4 different tri clubs and a masters swimming club attending. Not that I encourage healthy competition during training or anything but that alone should spur people along nicely.

Also, at the end of the 10 week block ... I'll happily publish the sessions themselves on facebook since, as above, there really is nothing special about them. To paraphrase Frank Carson - its in the way that I tell 'em.

Cheers @interested. I hate facebook pages for companies and generally don't look. Facebook not a medium for communicating and/or selling wares imho. Wish you the best with the venture, I've heard good things about your swim knowledge and how you communicate it.

tunney

BTH wrote: »

Silver bullet doesn't exist. I expect these sessions to hurt. One of the coaches is Interested, who coaches me (and the rest of my club) on a Monday evening. The other coach apparently used to coach Barry Murphy amongst others.

Emmmmmmm don't mean to drag off topic but IMHO for most they don't need swim sessions that hurt, they need swim sessions that make them better swimmers.

No idea who Barry Murphy is.

BTH

StaggerLee wrote: »

For the set of 16 * 100's, would there be any breaks in there?

Trust me, no breaks. 3*100 is cruising, the fourth eyesballs out.

interested

tunney wrote: »

Emmmmmmm don't mean to drag off topic but IMHO for most they don't need swim sessions that hurt, they need swim sessions that make them better swimmers.

No idea who Barry Murphy is.

My coaching experience is very limited compared to many - something I've never contradicted. I challenge people to improve their swim fitness over a period of time and I help try to eliminate limiters in their strokes. I do this constructively and some would say effectively.

So, yep, great point, swim sessions that hurt people are largely a total waste of a persons time. All the sessions I give are designed to make people better swimmers, enjoy their swimming and feel like that they are being challenged to make the next step along the way to where they want to go.

As above, the sessions are open to all, so if you or the lads want to compliment your existing sessions.

StaggerLee

BTH wrote: »

Trust me, no breaks. 3*100 is cruising, the fourth eyesballs out.

From facebook - "The set above was an example that came from another session I gave to the 3D group their first night back after the summer. There was no break in that. However - and here's the difference between a session you read online and having a coach - if it's not working for a lane and people are really struggling. Then yep, Ill throw in 60' rest between each 4 100's. There is value in working through an endurance set at 60-80% effort but it wanes - the objective of that set is a sustained effort - aerobic - and it's an excellent test of swim fitness and endurance. As chance would have it I did a set of 16*100 this morning, but they were broken into 4 sets of 4 with 3 mins between each."

Gulp. :eek:

I'll try a couple of 4x100's today, wont be pretty.

interested

tunney wrote: »

Cheers @interested. I hate facebook pages for companies and generally don't look. Facebook not a medium for communicating and/or selling wares imho. Wish you the best with the venture, I've heard good things about your swim knowledge and how you communicate it.

Agreed - but Trish is computer illiterate, has two rug rats taking up most of her time and teachers/coaches throughout the day. BTW, I was waiting to get more details, but she'd be the best person to ask with regard to getting kiddies into swimming at an early age around the north side. IMHO, no kid is ever too young to get in a pool - I read someones advice that younger kids can be disruptive and it's not worth it - trust me, 3 and 4 year olds learn at their own speed and its all about having fun in the water and enjoying their splash until their a little older.

catweazle

Will this be a Dublin only gig or are there plans to go on a roadshow at any stage if the interest was there and travel the country bringing sub60's gospel to the masses

interested

@staggerLee
Not the greatest medium - but to answer the question - a common misconception is that the catch in freestyle is done with the hand - sculling like this demonstrates in a tactile way that its the hand, forearm and leverage of a high elbow that really ensure you 'feel' the water. When you've missed a few sessions or haven't swam for a while it 'feels all wrong' .. or simply 'that felt like sh*t' ... slow it down, take the time to get back to basics and be patient.
Check out ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WYyowAvb5U

4*100's ... the hope is that the session will help people that can swim improve. Some people, with issues in their strokes, will still be 'training' but at an effort level that will ensure they can employ 'fixes' into their session and not just when they do drills or know someone is watching them.
The guide is 4*100's off 1.10 or 1.15 but its a guide - if we take on people learning to swim in this hour then the quality of the coaching / teaching will get spread thin since teaching beginners demands more attention and time - and we reckon that this is unfair to the other people paying for the pool time.

@ BTH - you were in such a state with your sniffles the other night 10*25's would have hurt. More seriously, you and a few others with the objectives you have need sets within sessions that will challenge you. With some subtle changes to that stroke of yours those sets should get easier.

@ Catweazle - Dublin, Fridays for now - trips west are often strewn with danger but thats half the fun. This one time, in Swinford, some guy, on the run ... well, you were there .. you know what you did.

ray o

I've had a few 1-1 sessions with Interested and was very happy with his methods. Very quickly picked out issues with my stroke but most importantly was able to communicate very effectivly the fixes and how to go about it. I could also see that his sessions involved continuous focus on maintaing good form and also getting the finger out to work on fitness.

Pity it all went to fvck - appendix out, two chest infections and still feeling the effects of the worst cold since I can remember. I would have signed up but myself to get back at it if it were not for that.

BTH

interested wrote: »

@ BTH - you were in such a state with your sniffles the other night 10*25's would have hurt. More seriously, you and a few others with the objectives you have need sets within sessions that will challenge you. With some subtle changes to that stroke of yours those sets should get easier.

That was a potentially fatal dose.

Time to roll this one out again

StaggerLee

StaggerLee wrote: »

From facebook - "The set above was an example that came from another session I gave to the 3D group their first night back after the summer. There was no break in that. However - and here's the difference between a session you read online and having a coach - if it's not working for a lane and people are really struggling. Then yep, Ill throw in 60' rest between each 4 100's. There is value in working through an endurance set at 60-80% effort but it wanes - the objective of that set is a sustained effort - aerobic - and it's an excellent test of swim fitness and endurance. As chance would have it I did a set of 16*100 this morning, but they were broken into 4 sets of 4 with 3 mins between each."

Gulp. :eek:

I'll try a couple of 4x100's today, wont be pretty.

Okay, so I did a 5x100 (10x50 lenghts) there at lunch and a few 2x100s. The 10x50 lengths was actually a major breakthrough for me. However, I ditched the bilateral breathing for it and took a breath to the right every 2 strokes. I've been working hard on the bilateral breathing for a couple of months now, and can do it, but I find I just cant get enough air into me and end up having to stop after 2, 3 maybe 4 50m lenghts.
Is it worth persevering in the long run?

interested

StaggerLee wrote: »

Okay, so I did a 5x100 (10x50 lenghts) there at lunch and a few 2x100s. The 10x50 lengths was actually a major breakthrough for me. However, I ditched the bilateral breathing for it and took a breath to the right every 2 strokes. I've been working hard on the bilateral breathing for a couple of months now, and can do it, but I find I just cant get enough air into me and end up having to stop after 2, 3 maybe 4 50m lenghts.
Is it worth persevering in the long run?

bilateral breathing - and to utlise the old d'internet goto - IMHO, its very useful for people to train with since it helps balance the stroke and facilitate proper rotation - but when it comes to a test set or racing it's whatever works best for you. I definitely don't have the perfect stroke, but out of habit I breath every stroke and Ive seen alot of distance swimmers fall into this. That said, i'd stick with it when training or ... whatever your coach/club tell you to do

btw, and Im guessing 10*50lenghts wasn't literally what you did at lunch
5*100 is either
a) 5 * 4 lengths of a 25 metre pool
b) 5 * 2 lengths of a 50 metre pool

Sometimes when the 400's are pants, do sets of 200's. When 200's are pants, do sets of 100's ..... when 25's are pants, its time to hit the sauna

RacoonQueen

After reading this thread, suddenly glad I deemed myself too slow for these.

Dory Dory

@ Interested - Obviously you've got the history, expertise and credentials in this sport to instruct others, but what was clear to me while swimming with you in the Irish Sea this summer was you've also got the gift of articulation and an unselfish and constructive demeanor that is so crucial, but sometimes forgotten, to successful coaching. Best to you in this endeavor.

interested

Dory Dory wrote: »

@ Interested - Obviously you've got the history, expertise and credentials in this sport to instruct others, but what was clear to me while swimming with you in the Irish Sea this summer was you've also got the gift of articulation and an unselfish and constructive demeanor that is so crucial, but sometimes forgotten, to successful coaching. Best to you in this endeavor.

@Dory - that's very nice of you to say Dory - despite a misspent childhood, the coaching element is very new to me but Im pretty lucky in that I was given the advice a while back that just because you swam/swim doesn't make you a coach. You're measured as a coach by the performances of those you do coach.

It's 2 years since I published a set of 10 swim sessions (a brain dump) that some people found useful - but I'm pretty sure that such stuff has very limited value without actual live input. At this stage most people here are able to stick a set on the pool deck and follow the instructions but who tells you to stop dropping your arm deep on the 3rd 50 of a 200 when you don't even know you're doing it, or that you're wasting energy throwing your head too far when breathing ? or, "thanks for turning up, you're sick, lead out lane 6 (when there's only 5 lanes in the pool) "

Anyhow - I've no doubt I'm gonna learn a load from this experiment and I'm sure Ill spend alot of timing laughing at what I say and do to try and motivate people .... which isn't something I do naturally (more de-motivation)

StaggerLee

interested wrote: »

bilateral breathing - and to utlise the old d'internet goto - IMHO, its very useful for people to train with since it helps balance the stroke and facilitate proper rotation - but when it comes to a test set or racing it's whatever works best for you. I definitely don't have the perfect stroke, but out of habit I breath every stroke and Ive seen alot of distance swimmers fall into this. That said, i'd stick with it when training or ... whatever your coach/club tell you to do

btw, and Im guessing 10*50lenghts wasn't literally what you did at lunch
5*100 is either
a) 5 * 4 lengths of a 25 metre pool
b) 5 * 2 lengths of a 50 metre pool

Sometimes when the 400's are pants, do sets of 200's. When 200's are pants, do sets of 100's ..... when 25's are pants, its time to hit the sauna

Sorry typo there, I meant 10x50m lengths or 5 * 2 lengths of a 50 metre pool

promethius

would agree with the earlier post, train bilateral, race whatever works.

the thread inspired me to do some 100m repeats at lunch time swim, 10 X 100m on 1:30 send off. just about managed it but bloody tough, will do more of this i think i've neglected the shorter sets a bit.

in relation to coaching experience, you're good or you're not. interested, you've only 3 years but to me that's not as important as what you're doing now. i know coaches that are at it 30 years and are useless, bored of it and not keeping track of new ideas and approaches. so don't be too hard on yourself :-)

sub60 is a clever way of very quickly letting people know what you're about and is good marketing.

tunney

promethius wrote: »

sub60 is a clever way of very quickly letting people know what you're about and is good marketing.

Sorta restricts things a bit. I know a popular Dublin club has a coached session that loads of people went to and and have turned around and said "oh thats sh1te".

It actually sounds like a good coached Masters session - however the standard that most are at need to be thought to swim, not thought to swim fast and "suffer in the water".

promethius

tunney wrote: »

Sorta restricts things a bit. I know a popular Dublin club has a coached session that loads of people went to and and have turned around and said "oh thats sh1te".

It actually sounds like a good coached Masters session - however the standard that most are at need to be thought to swim, not thought to swim fast and "suffer in the water".

yeah i know what you mean, a lot of people attending tri club sessions are learning to swim and balls to the wall wouldn't be what they need. what i've noticed in a few tri clubs is that the fast swimmers stay away from the club coached sessions as they're not challenging enough. train themselves or form smaller informal groups.

this seems to be pitched at the pointier end of things where a bit of suffering is more beneficial

interested

"suffer"
"balls to the wall"
"I know a popular Dublin club has a coached session that loads of people went to and and have turned around and said "oh thats sh1te".
"however the standard that most are at need to be thought to swim, not thought to swim fast and "suffer in the water". "

I can't helping thinking BTH is the one I've to thank for this since as far as I know he's the only one I've coached. The set he referenced was a test set for a group of people working towards a particular goal.
Interesting opinions ? where was that session Tunney - wasn't on the southside was it ? is it still running ?

oh, the 'sub60swim' thing - it was all I could think of at the time and seemed more catchy than 'Friday Night Swimming' or similar, as per facebook page (again apologies) we're happy to work with all ... that can tackle 4*100 off 2.10/2.15. We're not teaching people to swim - but I've every intention of teaching people how to swim faster.
There are 2 or 3 masters swimmers attending as well - its not all about triathlon.

Marketing ? not my bag thankfully (no offense to those it suits).


"however the standard that most are at need to be thought to swim, not thought to swim fast and "suffer in the water""

Arguably a sweeping statement but hey, its D'internet right ? - I personally think that people who have learned to swim as an adult and can do something like 4*100 off 2.10 or similar deserve a little honesty and value for their time if they attend a swim session.

I've probably made this point already but to get faster you ... wait for it now ... have to train .... and train with good stroke habits ... if there's a silver bullet, that's it right there. Doing hour after hour after hour of stroke work is the same as hour after hour after hour of training with a bad habit.

Thanks for the input lads.

BTH

promethius wrote: »

yeah i know what you mean, a lot of people attending tri club sessions are learning to swim and balls to the wall wouldn't be what they need. what i've noticed in a few tri clubs is that the fast swimmers stay away from the club coached sessions as they're not challenging enough. train themselves or form smaller informal groups.

this seems to be pitched at the pointier end of things where a bit of suffering is more beneficial

This was the case with our club also, until last October when Interested started coaching one of the sessions. While this might not be fast to some people, on Monday this week we had a lane of six swimmers doing 4*100 on 1:35 in the middle of, and attempting :rolleyes: 8*50 on 0:45 at the end of, a 2400m main set. The faster swimmers have come back to the club swims, and that gives me a whole new set of feet to chase :pac:

tunney

interested wrote: »

"suffer"
"balls to the wall"
"I know a popular Dublin club has a coached session that loads of people went to and and have turned around and said "oh thats sh1te".
"however the standard that most are at need to be thought to swim, not thought to swim fast and "suffer in the water". "

I can't helping thinking BTH is the one I've to thank for this since as far as I know he's the only one I've coached. The set he referenced was a test set for a group of people working towards a particular goal.
Interesting opinions ? where was that session Tunney - wasn't on the southside was it ? is it still running ?

I can categorically say that I was not referring to you or to a session you prescribed or coached. I think it would be unfair for me to name names as I think its probably a good session for what its meant to be - people just thought it was something it wasn't.

interested wrote: »

oh, the 'sub60swim' thing - it was all I could think of at the time and seemed more catchy than 'Friday Night Swimming' or similar, as per facebook page (again apologies) we're happy to work with all ... that can tackle 4*100 off 2.10/2.15. We're not teaching people to swim - but I've every intention of teaching people how to swim faster.

Going off 2:10 2:15 to me would suggest fundamental stroke problems and require alot of technique work - will this be catered for?

interested wrote: »

"however the standard that most are at need to be thought to swim, not thought to swim fast and "suffer in the water""

Arguably a sweeping statement but hey, its D'internet right ? - I personally think that people who have learned to swim as an adult and can do something like 4*100 off 2.10 or similar deserve a little honesty and value for their time if they attend a swim session.

I've not swam much recently but I'll still swim 20-30 x 100 off 2:00, and I get coached sessions. For me the value is not getting crushed and puking on the pool deck under the instruction of the coach but getting the technique critiques so I can get back to going off 1:45 and hopefully down from there. I can make myself puke in the pool. I just need to make sure that when I puke I do so holding good form. There are others in my session who swim off 1:35 and are there for the technique too.

The way I look at it is get the technique stuff from the coach and then suffer on your own time. No?

interested wrote: »

I've probably made this point already but to get faster you ... wait for it now ... have to train .... and train with good stroke habits ... if there's a silver bullet, that's it right there. Doing hour after hour after hour of stroke work is the same as hour after hour after hour of training with a bad habit.

Agreed.

I think there very much is demand for what you are doing.

interested

tunney wrote: »

Going off 2:10 2:15 to me would suggest fundamental stroke problems and require alot of technique work - will this be catered for?

Absolutely, (these lucky people) will get the technique pointers within the first couple of weeks - they then get to employ them during sessions. Lucky ? cause typically, fix a couple of fundamental problems and put it into practice and suddenly 100's off 2, 1.50 and 1.45 become objectives to work towards efficiently. Making 3 or 4 100's off 1.45 might be all well and good but do 15 of em, 19 of em or 38 of em when it comes to race day ? ahh, what if ...

tunney wrote:

I've not swam much recently but I'll still swim 20-30 x 100 off 2:00, and I get coached sessions. For me the value is not getting crushed and puking on the pool deck under the instruction of the coach but getting the technique critiques so I can get back to going off 1:45 and hopefully down from there. I can make myself puke in the pool. I just need to make sure that when I puke I do so holding good form. There are others in my session who swim off 1:35 and are there for the technique too.

Hey, whatever works for you. I've never seen you swim and am very slow to offer advice about something I couldnt possibly know about. What I do know of makes me think it's all going in the right direction for you and some of the other guys attending those sessions. Your coach is your coach, but whether its for 3.8km long distance swim or oly or sprint distance getting in a pool to do 20-30 100's off the same pace is ... well ... balls to the wall, suffering ... (mentally)

tunney wrote:

The way I look at it is get the technique stuff from the coach and then suffer on your own time. No?

I'd disagree. But I'd be considering a perceived Joe/Jane Blogs. It takes a very competitive, driven person to consistently take themselves along (especially in public sessions) to bash out the likes of 20 or 30 100's. I tip my hat to anyone that can do that throughout a season. Personally, I still pay, alot of money each year to swim 3 days a week with a coach. It's not one on one ... but even during test sets I get reminded if my left arm is doing something it shouldn't be doing when I get tired.

Agreed.
I think there very much is demand for what you are doing.

Well, we'll see - if I can help one person with their swimming then I'll be happy. But then again, Ive always been both a persistent and simple f*cker.

Dory Dory

tunney wrote: »

I can make myself puke in the pool.

Great, we've got a puker on our hands...which means extra work for the lifeguards and a pain in the arse for everyone because the pool will have to be closed and super-chlorinated. We hated your type when I worked at the pool.