The silent poverty class

krd

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The question that intrigues me the most, is on the issue of whether it's fair that a family with at least one decent job should end up with the same as a family with none at the end of the month.

Life isn't fair

Hey, you know, a teenage girl, from a working class background, stacking shelves in Dunnes stores, has a greater disposable income than the typical Celtic Tiger "power couple". Is that unfair

It just seems at this point, that the prolonged effects of this recession in Ireland - particularly the financial ties that many people now have to boom-price property - are leading us into an era of general poorness again.

People bought houses at boom time prices because, they thought everyone else was at it (well the winners, and not the whining losers with chips on their shoulders). Safety in numbers. And you had to show you were part of the deserving ingroup ("don't promote that scumbag - doesn't he live in rented accommodation.......Pick a winner instead, one of us, a young man or woman with a boom time mortgage......the smart and ballsy types...a solid Irish bollox...and together we'll farm the scum people like cattle....the scum are only eejits, if they were clever they'd try to become like us" ).

Ya see. Ireland is not a country where working hard is the ticket to success. No. It's about "social skills"/social class....Fitting in....Conforming. To show you belong, and "fit in", you have to make a display of your worthiness and conformity. You do this through purchases - the house, the car, etc. So in a way there was a gun to the heads of all those smort couples who've bitten off way more than they can chew. Conform or perish.

But don't bellyache about unfairness. All those smort couples thought they were in on a the winning end of a scam. They were greedy. What's that saying they have in the New York - in the financial services - "pigs get slaughter".

It's as simple as this, those boom time mortgages were mostly not affordable. For anyone. I'm not going to get the mortgage calculator out, but there would be many people who had/have mortgages where the repayment is over 4 grand a month. That is simply not affordable - that's just shy of 50k a year. Even a mortgage half that is unaffordable.

When property prices were skyrocketing for more than a decade, every "winner" thought this was fantastic. In fact it was an economic disaster in the making. When you take too much money out of an economy to pay mortgages, it is destructive to the economy. The trouble was visible a long way off. In the 90s, furniture suppliers who sold quality furniture were going out of business. Because the people who would have bought their furniture were paying higher mortgages and could only afford the cheap crap.

And this is a Europe wide crisis. If you're in London, earning 80k a year, which will push you into the top 2% of earners. Do you know what you can afford to buy?....A poxy one bedroomed flat - that will swallow all your wages. And if you're earning 160k, you won't get much more.

The hard done by Celtic Tiger couple may think they're fantastic for not drinking or smoking or ever having lunches at work. They think they're great for pouring all their money into their mortgage. But that is disastrous for an economy. And eventually it bites them in the ass too. And effects their ability to pay their mortgages.

I don't mean that we'll all be starving, but I remember growing up in the 80's/early 90's there was a similar prevailing poorness where middle-income families just didn't really have the money to support the type of lifestyle we became accustomed to during the Tiger years.

A lot of that "life style" was an illusion. A smort car, a back breaking mortgage, and not being able to afford a coffee and a sandwich, and staying in every night of the week watching property porn....Is no kind of "life style". The occasional mortgage top up, for showing off - but then back to endless nights in front of the TV - recycling your teabags when no one is looking.

****ed, so we are.

We are not *****ed.......

There is a way out of this.

A good belt of European wide inflation for a few years would get us all out of jail. In the short term, it would seem a little painful, but in the long run it would reduced everyone's mortgages (though none of ye deserve it). People would have more money to spend, and we could have an thriving economy again.

The problem is. The people in charge are sitting on massive wads of cash they made on the back of property flipping, and they do not want to see that cash pile eroded.

I believe the inflation is inevitable, because nothing else is working. More of this austerity rubbish will simply lead to a point where they give up the ghost and start belting the cash out to get things going.


So, scream for inflation.......


And take that chip off your shoulder

Gumbo

mariaalice wrote: »

People are entirely missing the point its not how cheaply you can feed you family or how to save a bit of money here and there, its about the expectation of a certain life style I am not talking about a sense of entitlement its a lot more complex that that. Its the belief that a middle ranking public servant could have a 4 bedroom house, live in a "good" area afford music lessons for the children, send the children to a good university, have saving and a good pension, or to put it another way have a middle class lifestyle and who knows maybe thats OK and its a legitimate exportation.

So would the letter to the paper be ok if it was a private sector person complaining about 65k salary? I don't get your post tbh?

krd

mariaalice wrote: »

People are entirely missing the point its not how cheaply you can feed you family or how to save a bit of money here and there,

Or miss the point, that if they're cheaply feeding their family, it will hurt the people who depend on feeding people for a living. And it comes round in a circle.

its about the expectation of a certain life style I am not talking about a sense of entitlement its a lot more complex that that.

You work to live, anyone with the "live to work" attitude should be put up against a wall and shot. What's the point in working, if all you're getting out of it is a few crusts to keep you going so you can do more work. It's perverse.

Its the belief that a middle ranking public servant could have a 4 bedroom house, live in a "good" area afford music lessons for the children, send the children to a good university, have saving and a good pension, or to put it another way have a middle class lifestyle and who knows maybe thats OK and its a legitimate exportation.

For goods and services (like music lessons) to be available to people, they need to have a disposable income to consume and support those services. Frugality is bollox. It makes everyone poor. The miser is worse than the spend thrift....they want to collect and keep all their pennies without contributing to the most important part of an economy, which is the consumption. Where there are customers with cash, it's a simple as opening up shop to serve the. Without the customers first you don't have a business. And without the businesses you have no one to give customers the cash to spend

Punish the misers!!!!!...........Demand mad inflation now!!!!....Wipe out the value of their tightly clasp bulging penny purses.

The_Honeybadger

kceire wrote: »

But then surely how can we use that site for that gardas salary as we don't know his tax credits?

I just put it in as a public servant on 65k married, one income. Should be fairly accurate. That said the article was too vague and this is probably not entirely accurate for the family in question, but good enough to use as a rough guide.

Idbatterim

So would the letter to the paper be ok if it was a private sector person complaining about 65k salary? I don't get your post tbh?

I get your point, but when I hear its a Ps worker, I have a lot less sympathy.

greecy_joe

keppler wrote: »

I know its not a modest salary. I was being sarcastic that's why I put in the big grin after modest. He's on more money than most university graduates and hes still complaining.

As for the mortgage, there is a possibility that it could well be a celtic tiger mortgage. If it's a tracker mortgage the real repayment could be up on 2grand making the actual mortgage seem deceptively low.
But again, I can see where you're coming from Tim 1400 is not unreasonable, if they didn't have a mortgage their rent isn't going to be much lower so I don't see what she's harping on about.
One of the biggest questions I have about this is the car.......everyone has their own idea when it comes to what is expensive when talking about cars! I know I wouldn't like to be making the repayments on a family saloon . The payments on an avensis or mondeo bought from new would easily be upwards of 600 per month.

who buys a house for the first time at forty three ( the husband is fifty ) , sounds to me like they may have repayments on more than one house

n900guy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

An article in the Irish Times today saying that someone on 65K is in poverty. This is because the mortgage is almost €1,400.

If someone is on 65K and that is the only family income, they are taking home what - close to 3K a month. So they have 1,600 after mortgage repayment.

Is that poverty?

They are saying things like we can't afford the 20 euro payment for parties the children go to. But I would never spend 20 euro on a child's birthday present. Even if I was on 100K a year. More like a fiver.

Call me a cynic but I am wondering are these people setting their expectations way too high - expecting the Celtic tiger lifestyle!

Obviously not because MABS are telling them things are tough. But they say they are still paying into a Pension. I stopped mine the last year.

A lot of people don't even have one.

Not nice but hardly poverty.

Discuss....

37k after tax, so 20k after paying the mortgage. Running a car costs maybe €5k/year. Once you start paying your own bills, unlike those in unemployment luxury, the rest won't go far. A lot of the shouting is from single people aged say 25, earning 30-40k/year with no dependents. Mother could work but how can you afford the €1200/month average childcare costs?

Ireland works well and creates security of food, shelter and money for unemployed people, and creates a huge amount of stress and insecurity for those looking to move up Maslow's hierarchy. It's pretty easy to maintain a large underclass to keep the political system in charge and prevent change.

Celticfire

Idbatterim wrote: »

I get your point, but when I hear its a Ps worker, I have a lot less sympathy.

You're right, sub-human parasites.. How dare anyone apply for a decent job. What sort of scum would do that?

greecy_joe

a guard is not a job which requires any special degree of skill and inteligence , in most countries , its a lower middle class occupation , in ireland , its upper middle class , hence the sense of entitlement to a very generous wage

Gumbo

greecy_joe wrote: »

who buys a house for the first time at forty three ( the husband is fifty ) , sounds to me like they may have repayments on more than one house

Where did it say it was his first house?

greecy_joe

kceire wrote: »

Where did it say it was his first house?

well if it wasnt , presumabley their previous home was worth quite a bit around the time they bought their present home 7

like i said , it sounds like they may have more than one house to pay for

Idbatterim

You're right, sub-human parasites.. How dare anyone apply for a decent job. What sort of scum would do that?

I have no problem with anyone applying for anything, but let me elaborate, they dont have to fear job loss (their performance doesnt even matter in practice), stress of losing everything, will receive big lump sum on retirement, generous pension, likely far higher paid than the private sector. I have a huge amount of compassion, but I know who deserves it. That is why when I hear these stories from Ps workers, I dont even want to know ( at least from those earning circa 40k plus). The woman in this story is making it up or is a total incompetent! She better get used to the fact that the standard of living most of us enjoyed during the celtic tiger is long gone, the vast majority of us have already become accustomed to this fact.

Celticfire

greecy_joe wrote: »

a guard is not a job which requires any special degree of skill and inteligence , in most countries , its a lower middle class occupation , in ireland , its upper middle class , hence the sense of entitlement to a very generous wage

Here's what a "real" generous wage looks like.

SALARY
Starting salary $42,000* annually. After five (5) years of service, the base salary is $108,608*
*Under 2010 labor agreement


BENEFITS
Full salary and benefits during entire training period.

Night shift payments.

All uniforms and equipment are supplied by the Department.

Yearly uniform cleaning allotment

Paid family dental, optical and medical plans.

Thirteen (13) paid holidays.



Fifteen (15) paid vacation days first year of service, increasing to twenty-seven (27) days after five (5) years of service

Thirteen (13) sick days first year of service, increasing to twenty-six (26) days after the first three (3) years of service; Unused sick days are cumulative

Three (3) paid personal days first year of service, increasing to five (5) days after three (3) years of service.

*Non-contributory pension plan. Members are eligible for retirement after twenty (20) years of service at 50% of three (3) year final average salary. Vested retirement plan after five (5) years.

(*Non –contributory pension plan subject to change as per New York State Pension Plan)

http://apps.suffolkcountyny.gov/police/recruitment.htm

Gumbo

mickeyk wrote: »

I just put it in as a public servant on 65k married, one income. Should be fairly accurate. That said the article was too vague and this is probably not entirely accurate for the family in question, but good enough to use as a rough guide.

I wasn't questioning your use of it, another poster mentioned that I was using it wrong as I wasn't inputting my correct credits etc. which led me to reply with it not being that accurate for me and I'm on a lot less than 65k so I can o ly imagine how much it's out by.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I get your point, but when I hear its a Ps worker, I have a lot less sympathy.

Why is that? It's a petty arrogant point of view don't ya think? Particularly when you rely on those people every day of your life.

greecy_joe

Celticfire wrote: »

Here's what a "real" generous wage looks like.




http://apps.suffolkcountyny.gov/police/recruitment.htm

im aware of how well paid police are in the usa but the job of a cop in new york is a whole lot more dangerous than in ireland

being a farmer is a lot more dangerous than being a cop in ireland

Idbatterim

Why is that? It's a petty arrogant point of view don't ya think? Particularly when you rely on those people every day of your life.

I have answered this question above. I keep on hearing anybody could have applied for the public service during the boom, absolutely true! so is the fact that anyone not happy with their salary in the Ps, can now apply for a position in the private sector, if her family is so badly done by, I suggest she or her husband try it...

greecy_joe

Idbatterim wrote: »

I have answered this question above. I keep on hearing anybody could have applied for the public service during the boom, absolutely true! so is the fact that anyone not happy with their salary in the Ps, can now apply for a position in the private sector, if her family is so badly done by, I suggest she or her husband try it...

if this cop is earning 65 k ( before overtime ) anually , what was he earning prior to the alledged savage cuts which began four years ago , ive said it before , guards made more during the boom than the guys who were mixing concrete on building sites , only difference is the men in hard hats are now on the scrap heap ( or australia ) and with no pension

Celticfire

Idbatterim wrote: »

I have no problem with anyone applying for anything, but let me elaborate, they dont have to fear job loss (their performance doesnt even matter in practice), stress of losing everything, will receive big lump sum on retirement, generous pension, likely far higher paid than the private sector. I have a huge amount of compassion, but I know who deserves it. That is why when I hear these stories from Ps workers, I dont even want to know ( at least from those earning circa 40k plus). The woman in this story is making it up or is a total incompetent! She better get used to the fact that the standard of living most of us enjoyed during the celtic tiger is long gone, the vast majority of us have already become accustomed to this fact.

How the hell do you know what stress people have ? What if someone's spouse looses their job and now a person has to survive on one wage? If you depended or had a lifestyle of two wages loosing one is a big blow no matter who you are.

So after 40 years of PRSI (10 of which are all that are needed to get contributory pension, 0 to get non-contributory) superannuation and now pension levy, none of which there is any choice in paying you are jealous that someone will get a pension.

Why E40k ? is that because it's more than you earn?

Idbatterim

if this cop is earning 65 k ( before overtime ) anually , what was he earning prior to the alledged savage cuts which began four years ago

yeah the savage 15% cuts, Id define savage as minimum 30% probably 40%.

greecy_joe

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah the savage 15% cuts, Id define savage as minimum 30% probably 40%.

its not even 15% when you take the tax write off into account

who know how long it will take or how broke we will have to get but guards are facing a lot more cuts and proper order , even the fiercest critics of croke park always prefix their statements with an exclusion of guards , nurses etc , im sick of it , guards are no different than anyone else , no more or less greedy , the reality is they are still overpaid , this business of labelling all administrators as not worth a packet of peanuts and all guards as being worthy of their weight in gold , is simplistic in the extreme

Gumbo

greecy_joe wrote: »

and with no pension

In fairness they have the state pension of 230 per week which is built into ps pensions. They also should have their construction federation pensions or else they choose to opt out for a higher weekly pay packet.

SBWife

Celticfire wrote: »

Here's what a "real" generous wage looks like.




http://apps.suffolkcountyny.gov/police/recruitment.htm

For suburban NYC where the county median house price is over $450k with college costs in the tens of thousands and you get shot at!

The Guard's salary in the Irish Times article funds a much more middle class lifestyle than that of a Long Island cop at the top of the pay scale.

Celticfire

greecy_joe wrote: »

im aware of how well paid police are in the usa but the job of a cop in new york is a whole lot more dangerous than in ireland

being a farmer is a lot more dangerous than being a cop in ireland

So they are properly compensated here then? Seeing as they get paid a hell of a lot less.

Enlighten me as to how farmers get hurt or killed? Is it intentional while in the course of their job?

SBWife

Celticfire wrote: »

So they are properly compensated here then? Seeing as they get paid a hell of a lot less.

Enlighten me as to how farmers get hurt or killed? Is it intentional while in the course of their job?

Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations in Ireland. Farm accidents happen dealing with heavy equipment, large animals, chemicals, noxious gases, etc.

Celticfire

SBWife wrote: »

For suburban NYC where the county median house price is over $450k with college costs in the tens of thousands and you get shot at!
.

A bit like Dublin a couple of years ago but cheaper..

What's college costs got to do with renumeration?

No shots ever fired in Ireland?

Suffolk county

Not bad for 4 years basic police officers wage.... wonder what you could get being a sergeant?

SBWife

Celticfire wrote: »

A bit like Dublin a couple of years ago but cheaper..

When did an average college education cost northward of €20k per annum, and that's the current price of property following a significant correction in the property market in the region. Ireland isn't the only country which experienced a property bubble.

poeticseraphim

Tim Robbins wrote: »

An article in the Irish Times today saying that someone on 65K is in poverty. This is because the mortgage is almost €1,400.

If someone is on 65K and that is the only family income, they are taking home what - close to 3K a month. So they have 1,600 after mortgage repayment.

Is that poverty?

They are saying things like we can't afford the 20 euro payment for parties the children go to. But I would never spend 20 euro on a child's birthday present. Even if I was on 100K a year. More like a fiver.

Call me a cynic but I am wondering are these people setting their expectations way too high - expecting the Celtic tiger lifestyle!

Obviously not because MABS are telling them things are tough. But they say they are still paying into a Pension. I stopped mine the last year.

A lot of people don't even have one.

Not nice but hardly poverty.

Discuss....

They have a liquidity shortage. Which is not poverty.

The people who made financial commitments during the boom have to facilitate them at those valuations as they were made thanks to credit. Obviously those valutations and predicated income were completely incorrect.

You can have a great lifestyle in this economy if you were wise during the boom and you have income.

There house i presume is worth a lot less than they are currently paying back the bank for which means they are losing money. But they have food a nice house etc and heat i presume. That is not poverty. It is fiscal stupidity.


They need professional fiscal management advice. And they need to learn to get more for their money.

Celticfire

SBWife wrote: »

When did an average college education cost northward of €20k per annum, and that's the current price of property following a significant correction in the property market in the region. Ireland isn't the only country which experienced a property bubble.

I don't get your point? If college fees were reintroduced would you want that amount added to the Garda's paycheque?

mariaalice

Ireland is changing and basically a lot of people don't like it because they see their standard of living being eroded and expectation's they had taken away. Its not just ps, its lots of vested interests the medical and legal profession is another example.

Celticfire

mariaalice wrote: »

Ireland is changing and basically a lot of people don't like it because they see their standard of living being eroded and expectation's they had taken away. Its not just ps, its lots of vested interested the medical and legal profession is another example.

Perhaps it's just "people"seeing their standard dropping and feeling the pinch. Not really something to gloat and feel happy about.

SBWife

Celticfire wrote: »

I don't get your point? If college fees were reintroduced would you want that amount added to the Garda's paycheque?

My point is that the Suffolk County police officer is most likely less well off if he has a child about to enter university.

avalon68

Celticfire wrote: »

What's college costs got to do with renumeration?

About the same amount as mortgage payments have to do with it......

mariaalice

I am not begrudging anyone and if you read any of my post you will see that, I am pointing out the reasons that a person on 65k can FEEL poor even though objectively they are not poor,... a lot of the reason they feel poor is because they believed that their income/job meant that they were going to have a certain lifestyle and in modern Ireland that is just not possible.

Celticfire

SBWife wrote: »

Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations in Ireland. Farm accidents happen dealing with heavy equipment, large animals, chemicals, noxious gases, etc.

Accident is the operative word. By not following safe working practices accidents happen.

Celticfire

avalon68 wrote: »

About the same amount as mortgage payments have to do with it......

Not really. No Garda thought his pay was going to be cut by as much as it was.
If he took out a Mortgage with the understanding that his employer ,the government wasn't going to cut his pay and he could afford it then he was fiscally prudent.

If anyone here knew in 2007 that Garda pay was going to be cut please raise your hand.

The crux of the issue is that their mortgage payments are not expensive comparative to the income of the household , so she needs to explain where the rest of the money is going if she is going to cry poor me on national media.

This reminds me of the woman on the frontline earlier in the year bitching about having to get rid of sky and maybe having to get rid of the second car, some people in this country are beyond belief in their expectations of lifestyle they deserve in relation to the job they do.

purple'n'gold

Seems to me that these people are extremely bad money managers. Maybe a huge overspend on their credit card(s)?

avalon68

Celticfire wrote: »

Not really. No Garda thought his pay was going to be cut by as much as it was.
If he took out a Mortgage with the understanding that his employer ,the government wasn't going to cut his pay and he could afford it then he was fiscally prudent.

If anyone here knew in 2007 that Garda pay was going to be cut please raise your hand.

It matters not - pay rates are not dictated by levels of debt. If he can no longer afford to live in that house, he should sell up and move elsewhere.....but instead we see someone who earns a pretty decent wage in the national media whinging away. If you cant afford your lifestyle, then you a) either need to find a job that will support it, or b) adjust your lifestyle to match your situation. Whinging about the hardships of earning 65k isnt going to garner any sympathy

Celticfire

SBWife wrote: »

My point is that the Suffolk County police officer is most likely less well off if he has a child about to enter university.

What if he/she has no kids?

College is a choice.. same here.

http://www.cappex.com/colleges/CUNY-LaGuardia-Community-College/tuition-and-costs


I'm getting $5121 a year... plus train fare

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

Not really. No Garda thought his pay was going to be cut by as much as it was.
If he took out a Mortgage with the understanding that his employer ,the government wasn't going to cut his pay and he could afford it then he was fiscally prudent.

If anyone here knew in 2007 that Garda pay was going to be cut please raise your hand.

I would say that the awareness of the fact that salaries can rise as well as fall is Home Economics 101, as examples from around the world amply demonstrate. It may be the amount your getting or it may be the inflation and the amount you can get for it. People don't routinely believe politicians with anything, why would they with something essential like their livelihood?
The belief that your salary will never fall is up with "property prices will only go up" for me. If people make life changing financial decisions based on this belief, we can only despair for them.

The_Honeybadger

krd wrote: »

Or miss the point, that if they're cheaply feeding their family, it will hurt the people who depend on feeding people for a living. And it comes round in a circle.



You work to live, anyone with the "live to work" attitude should be put up against a wall and shot. What's the point in working, if all you're getting out of it is a few crusts to keep you going so you can do more work. It's perverse.



For goods and services (like music lessons) to be available to people, they need to have a disposable income to consume and support those services. Frugality is bollox. It makes everyone poor. The miser is worse than the spend thrift....they want to collect and keep all their pennies without contributing to the most important part of an economy, which is the consumption. Where there are customers with cash, it's a simple as opening up shop to serve the. Without the customers first you don't have a business. And without the businesses you have no one to give customers the cash to spend

Punish the misers!!!!!...........Demand mad inflation now!!!!....Wipe out the value of their tightly clasp bulging penny purses.

To a point I agree with what you are saying here, Ireland needs to get over it's obsession with property, the media drive me insane the way they crack out the champers every time there is some biased report released saying that property is stabilising or is on the rise as If this is something to be happy about. Cheap property is a good thing, I really can't see why this is so hard to grasp.

And yes consumer spending is a good thing, but there is a balance to be struck. Take the couple in the times article, they have a son who now is at the age where he wants to go to college and they clearly have made no provisions for this despite having 18 years or more to plan for it. Many private sector workers have no idea how they are going to fund their retirement etc etc. There are families up and down the country who are one unexpected bill away from financial meltdown. Saving for this type of thing is important, and if there is money left over then yes, why not have the meal out or new clothes etc, but only after you are sure you can afford it.

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

I would say that the awareness of the fact that salaries can rise as well as fall is Home Economics 101, as examples from around the world amply demonstrate. It may be the amount your getting or it may be the inflation and the amount you can get for it. People don't routinely believe politicians with anything, why would they with something essential like their livelihood?
The belief that your salary will never fall is up with "property prices will only go up" for me. If people make life changing financial decisions based on this belief, we can only despair for them.

I'm guessing the bank who I'm sure are well stocked with people that studied Economics 101 approved his mortgage and had no reason to expect his wage to be cut.

But hey, hindsight is a great thing...

Farmer Pudsey

SBWife wrote: »

Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations in Ireland. Farm accidents happen dealing with heavy equipment, large animals, chemicals, noxious gases, etc.

Celticfire wrote: »

Accident is the operative word. By not following safe working practices accidents happen.

Just a little explation here it is all very well talking about safe working practices and accident's not happening. The reality of farming is that it is a low margin and low income buisness. A lot of farmers have to make the choice of putting bread on the table and buying something for the farm.

There is also the isuue of working alone which a large percentage of farmers do if something happens there is no help. You also have the issue of familarity breeds contemp which is an issue with bulls, cows after calving and large machinery. You would be suprised by how easily it is to get caught on the wrong side of an animal and the luck needed to get out of there have heard stories that would make your hair stand.

It is very easy to put it down to safe working practices do you think that if incomes were high that farmers would not have less accidents.

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

I'm guessing the bank who I'm sure are well stocked with people that studied Economics 101 approved his mortgage and had no reason to expect his wage to be cut.

But hey, hindsight is a great thing...

It must have been stress tested indeed. But their problem is not in the mortgage as such - they would have been paying similar amount whether they rented or bought in 2012 and it's only a part of their income. But they seem to be holding on to a lifestyle that is clearly not sustainable on a single Garda Sergeant's paycheck.

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

It must have been stress tested indeed. But their problem is not in the mortgage as such - they would have been paying similar amount whether they rented or bought in 2012 and it's only a part of their income. But they seem to be holding on to a lifestyle that is clearly not sustainable on a single Garda Sergeant's paycheck.

Here's a lesson, call it Economics 102

When your pay is cut you have less to spend :rolleyes:

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

Here's a lesson, call it Economics 102

When your pay is cut you have less to spend :rolleyes:

I know that well, but do they?

Celticfire

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Just a little explation here it is all very well talking about safe working practices and accident's not happening. The reality of farming is that it is a low margin and low income buisness. A lot of farmers have to make the choice of putting bread on the table and buying something for the farm.

There is also the isuue of working alone which a large percentage of farmers do if something happens there is no help. You also have the issue of familarity breeds contemp which is an issue with bulls, cows after calving and large machinery. You would be suprised by how easily it is to get caught on the wrong side of an animal and the luck needed to get out of there have heard stories that would make your hair stand.

It is very easy to put it down to safe working practices do you think that if incomes were high that farmers would not have less accidents.

I understand all that, and if money was no problem it could be spent to reduce those risks.

My point was these are still (sometimes avoidable)accidents and to downplay the genuine risks to Garda where the are intentionally attacked or assaulted is disingenuous.

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

I know that well, but do they?

Probably better than you.

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

Probably better than you.

I doubt, at least until I start writing letters to IT complaining that I'm poor because I spend more than I'm earning.

deanlandon

Oh yes...my heart bleeds for them. They probably can't afford the airfare to go to their apartment complex in Bulgaria