The silent poverty class

The_Honeybadger

krd wrote: »

Or miss the point, that if they're cheaply feeding their family, it will hurt the people who depend on feeding people for a living. And it comes round in a circle.



You work to live, anyone with the "live to work" attitude should be put up against a wall and shot. What's the point in working, if all you're getting out of it is a few crusts to keep you going so you can do more work. It's perverse.



For goods and services (like music lessons) to be available to people, they need to have a disposable income to consume and support those services. Frugality is bollox. It makes everyone poor. The miser is worse than the spend thrift....they want to collect and keep all their pennies without contributing to the most important part of an economy, which is the consumption. Where there are customers with cash, it's a simple as opening up shop to serve the. Without the customers first you don't have a business. And without the businesses you have no one to give customers the cash to spend

Punish the misers!!!!!...........Demand mad inflation now!!!!....Wipe out the value of their tightly clasp bulging penny purses.

To a point I agree with what you are saying here, Ireland needs to get over it's obsession with property, the media drive me insane the way they crack out the champers every time there is some biased report released saying that property is stabilising or is on the rise as If this is something to be happy about. Cheap property is a good thing, I really can't see why this is so hard to grasp.

And yes consumer spending is a good thing, but there is a balance to be struck. Take the couple in the times article, they have a son who now is at the age where he wants to go to college and they clearly have made no provisions for this despite having 18 years or more to plan for it. Many private sector workers have no idea how they are going to fund their retirement etc etc. There are families up and down the country who are one unexpected bill away from financial meltdown. Saving for this type of thing is important, and if there is money left over then yes, why not have the meal out or new clothes etc, but only after you are sure you can afford it.

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

I would say that the awareness of the fact that salaries can rise as well as fall is Home Economics 101, as examples from around the world amply demonstrate. It may be the amount your getting or it may be the inflation and the amount you can get for it. People don't routinely believe politicians with anything, why would they with something essential like their livelihood?
The belief that your salary will never fall is up with "property prices will only go up" for me. If people make life changing financial decisions based on this belief, we can only despair for them.

I'm guessing the bank who I'm sure are well stocked with people that studied Economics 101 approved his mortgage and had no reason to expect his wage to be cut.

But hey, hindsight is a great thing...

Farmer Pudsey

SBWife wrote: »

Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations in Ireland. Farm accidents happen dealing with heavy equipment, large animals, chemicals, noxious gases, etc.

Celticfire wrote: »

Accident is the operative word. By not following safe working practices accidents happen.

Just a little explation here it is all very well talking about safe working practices and accident's not happening. The reality of farming is that it is a low margin and low income buisness. A lot of farmers have to make the choice of putting bread on the table and buying something for the farm.

There is also the isuue of working alone which a large percentage of farmers do if something happens there is no help. You also have the issue of familarity breeds contemp which is an issue with bulls, cows after calving and large machinery. You would be suprised by how easily it is to get caught on the wrong side of an animal and the luck needed to get out of there have heard stories that would make your hair stand.

It is very easy to put it down to safe working practices do you think that if incomes were high that farmers would not have less accidents.

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

I'm guessing the bank who I'm sure are well stocked with people that studied Economics 101 approved his mortgage and had no reason to expect his wage to be cut.

But hey, hindsight is a great thing...

It must have been stress tested indeed. But their problem is not in the mortgage as such - they would have been paying similar amount whether they rented or bought in 2012 and it's only a part of their income. But they seem to be holding on to a lifestyle that is clearly not sustainable on a single Garda Sergeant's paycheck.

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

It must have been stress tested indeed. But their problem is not in the mortgage as such - they would have been paying similar amount whether they rented or bought in 2012 and it's only a part of their income. But they seem to be holding on to a lifestyle that is clearly not sustainable on a single Garda Sergeant's paycheck.

Here's a lesson, call it Economics 102

When your pay is cut you have less to spend :rolleyes:

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

Here's a lesson, call it Economics 102

When your pay is cut you have less to spend :rolleyes:

I know that well, but do they?

Celticfire

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Just a little explation here it is all very well talking about safe working practices and accident's not happening. The reality of farming is that it is a low margin and low income buisness. A lot of farmers have to make the choice of putting bread on the table and buying something for the farm.

There is also the isuue of working alone which a large percentage of farmers do if something happens there is no help. You also have the issue of familarity breeds contemp which is an issue with bulls, cows after calving and large machinery. You would be suprised by how easily it is to get caught on the wrong side of an animal and the luck needed to get out of there have heard stories that would make your hair stand.

It is very easy to put it down to safe working practices do you think that if incomes were high that farmers would not have less accidents.

I understand all that, and if money was no problem it could be spent to reduce those risks.

My point was these are still (sometimes avoidable)accidents and to downplay the genuine risks to Garda where the are intentionally attacked or assaulted is disingenuous.

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

I know that well, but do they?

Probably better than you.

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

Probably better than you.

I doubt, at least until I start writing letters to IT complaining that I'm poor because I spend more than I'm earning.

deanlandon

Oh yes...my heart bleeds for them. They probably can't afford the airfare to go to their apartment complex in Bulgaria

krd

mickeyk wrote: »

To a point I agree with what you are saying here, Ireland needs to get over it's obsession with property, the media drive me insane the way they crack out the champers every time there is some biased report released saying that property is stabilising or is on the rise as If this is something to be happy about.

Yes, because the people who run the media - the higher ups - are property speculating bolloxes who are in deep deep shoysh.

Cheap property is a good thing, I really can't see why this is so hard to grasp.

Cheap property is a wonderful thing - for most people. But, and its people like my parents, who are/were incredibly greedy. They wanted the houses they inherited off their maiden aunts or their own parents to blow them into the millionaire league.

In large parts of the US, people have huge houses, and the mortgages, in comparison to even the prices now here, are low enough that these people can have a really good life, for themselves and their families.

And yes consumer spending is a good thing, but there is a balance to be struck.

Yes...definitely....but, if mortgages are leaving people with only enough income for bare essentials, it's nowhere near a balance. Working families should have enough disposable income to do a family pub lunch once a week. That isn't really that outrageous. Bread/butter/and water, diets will destroy the place much quicker.

Take the couple in the times article, they have a son who now is at the age where he wants to go to college and they clearly have made no provisions for this despite having 18 years or more to plan for it.

It's funny, that a few people I know got the college fund going, within a few days of the child's birth. One (working) single mother I know, she was lodging her child's children's allowance into an account for the child from the word go.

Many private sector workers have no idea how they are going to fund their retirement etc etc.

It'll be suicide or crime, at this stage.

There are families up and down the country who are one unexpected bill away from financial meltdown. Saving for this type of thing is important, and if there is money left over then yes, why not have the meal out or new clothes etc, but only after you are sure you can afford it.

Well, the precarious position they're in, is because they're spending way too much on their mortgage. (now if they had a really low mortgage and they pissed away their money, that's a different thing). There needs to be an income and spending balance. Money spent on mortgages is not circulating in the economy - it's been sucked out like a massive economy destroying bolloxs has huge hoover in his hand.

The only real way out, I see is inflation.

Paying your mortgage is not helping anyone.

Write a letter to your bank

A Cairde

In a bid to save the Irish economy, and save yourself and meself, I have decided to defer my mortgage repayments for the coming year and reallocate the capital to a stimulus program of my own design, to get the economy of this great little nation going.


Over the next 12 months, I will be spending the mortgage money on fags, booze, and bitches.....I may even take up smoking, if I think it will help.


Is Sean Lemass é

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

I doubt, at least until I start writing letters to IT complaining that I'm poor because I spend more than I'm earning.

Look at you .... you economic genius... :pac:

strandroad

Celticfire wrote: »

Look at you .... you economic genius... :pac:

Never knew that simple budgeting and basic research are signs of genius but it indeed explains a lot if you think so.

Stheno

poeticseraphim wrote: »

They have a liquidity shortage. Which is not poverty.

The people who made financial commitments during the boom have to facilitate them at those valuations as they were made thanks to credit. Obviously those valutations and predicated income were completely incorrect.

You can have a great lifestyle in this economy if you were wise during the boom and you have income.

There house i presume is worth a lot less than they are currently paying back the bank for which means they are losing money. But they have food a nice house etc and heat i presume. That is not poverty. It is fiscal stupidity.


They need professional fiscal management advice. And they need to learn to get more for their money.

This is it for me, the article clearly shows that the basic salary of 51k has been supplemented by years of overtime and allowances and that it now being cut.

They have weekly bills of over €500 though!

“BEFORE WE start”, said the woman from the Money Advice and Budgeting Service (Mabs), “you should know you’re the seventh guard in here in 10 days.” Seated in front of her were a despairing Garda sergeant and his wife. The Mabs adviser was attempting to reassure them that they were not alone.

The payslip is revealing. The health insurance payment to the Garda scheme is €75 a week. The pension-related payments amount to even more.

Some years ago, they prudently joined the Garda credit union’s billpay scheme by which all their bills – including the mortgage – were calculated on a budget plan, and €528 a week deducted at source to pay them (identified as “St Raph BV” on the payslip).


After six years’ service as a sergeant, the basic salary before allowances is €51,084 but clearly, their day-to-day living expenses have come to depend on the allowances and child benefit. Not featured in the payslip is a payment of €500 a month, after tax, to cover unsocial hours. For Colm, this is compensation for six consecutive nights a month of 10-hour duty, plus Saturday and Sunday work.


The picture painted by the Mabs adviser is not quite as cheerful. She calculated the family’s net pay and child benefit total at €807.37. After totting up the mortgage payment and items such as fuel, food, clothing and footwear, education/medical/ transport, bin charges etc, she saw no way of getting their outgoings below €1,100 a week.

avalon68

Celticfire wrote: »

I'm guessing the bank who I'm sure are well stocked with people that studied Economics 101 approved his mortgage and had no reason to expect his wage to be cut.

But hey, hindsight is a great thing...

At the end of the day a bank is a business, out to make a profit. People cant keep blaming banks for their financial problems. Plenty of people didnt take out mortgages, plenty of people turned the banks down when they offered more money. Who honestly can say that they were in a position to get a mortgage if they had to take a 100% or even 110%. If you cant save a deposit, how can you expect to afford payments, or save for a rainy day/something broke fund. I feel 100% should never have been offered, but, clearly there was a market for it and thats why it was offered.

deanlandon

avalon68 wrote: »

At the end of the day a bank is a business, out to make a profit. People cant keep blaming banks for their financial problems. Plenty of people didnt take out mortgages, plenty of people turned the banks down when they offered more money. Who honestly can say that they were in a position to get a mortgage if they had to take a 100% or even 110%. If you cant save a deposit, how can you expect to afford payments, or save for a rainy day/something broke fund. I feel 100% should never have been offered, but, clearly there was a market for it and thats why it was offered.

Fully agree - like icarus, they flew too close to the sun

Idbatterim

It'll be suicide or crime, at this stage.

dont see why, if they have no debt & claim the OAP, they wont be going hungy or cold with it...

Icepick

The Onion would not make this up.

More importantly, how does someone this stupid become a sergeant?

Stheno

Icepick wrote: »

The Onion would not make this up.

More importantly, how does someone this stupid become a sergeant?

If it helps any I took a 36% paycut as a result of the recession, a contract ending and being eager to take an opportunity

It took a lot of adjusting to learn to live with almost forty percent less than I had had.

This guy sounds similiar in that overtime is down, and some allowances are gone, and he doesn't have the latitude I had to adjust as he came to expect overtime and allowances as basic pay.

I've been lucky as I've made up half of that decrease over time and now wonder what to do with the extra money, but losing a chunk of pay in the order of 10%+ can have a significant impact on people.

Celticfire

mhge wrote: »

Never knew that simple budgeting and basic research are signs of genius but it indeed explains a lot if you think so.

Perhaps you should offer your services to MABS, seeing as they can't get the family's budget balanced.

avalon68 wrote: »

At the end of the day a bank is a business, out to make a profit. People cant keep blaming banks for their financial problems. Plenty of people didnt take out mortgages, plenty of people turned the banks down when they offered more money. Who honestly can say that they were in a position to get a mortgage if they had to take a 100% or even 110%. If you cant save a deposit, how can you expect to afford payments, or save for a rainy day/something broke fund. I feel 100% should never have been offered, but, clearly there was a market for it and thats why it was offered.

I didn't blame the bank. He took what he could afford, now his pay is down. What's so hard to understand?

Icepick wrote: »

The Onion would not make this up.

More importantly, how does someone this stupid become a sergeant?

What makes you think he's stupid?

avalon68

Celticfire wrote: »

Perhaps you should offer your services to MABS, seeing as they can't get the family's budget balanced.



I didn't blame the bank. He took what he could afford, now his pay is down. What's so hard to understand?

But he cant afford it now. Clearly there wasnt enough "wiggle room" in his initial calculations/budgeting. And with a salary like that I dont understand why there are no savings built up. That seems insane to me. Also, overtime is not, and should never be considered as part of your basic pay. Its a nice bonus if you can get it, but is not something you can rely on. Frankly that article is poor reporting, and their money has to be going somewhere......but where?

NIMAN

We ain't hearing the full story in this one. Guaranteed.

Celticfire

avalon68 wrote: »

But he cant afford it now. Clearly there wasnt enough "wiggle room" in his initial calculations/budgeting. And with a salary like that I dont understand why there are no savings built up. That seems insane to me. Also, overtime is not, and should never be considered as part of your basic pay. Its a nice bonus if you can get it, but is not something you can rely on. Frankly that article is poor reporting, and their money has to be going somewhere......but where?

How do you know his spouse didn't loose her job a few years ago?
As regards overtime as far as I am aware it was something that could be relied upon before that was also reduced and done away with.

Perhaps there were savings and four years later they're gone..

Stheno

Celticfire wrote: »

How do you know his spouse didn't loose her job a few years ago?
As regards overtime as far as I am aware it was something that could be relied upon before that was also reduced and done away with.

Perhaps there were savings and four years later they're gone..

Yup agree with this, my job I took that huge paycut from, that was basic pay.

It included a guaranteed bonus and various allowable expenses and you became used to them

It took a major adjustment in my thinking and massive cuts in a lot of areas to fit my circumstances when I took that hit.

I've no kids and no dependants, which made it easier.

lmimmfn

dunno what the issue is here( we earn around the same ), the 3 of us( kid is under 2 ) are doing ok on 210euro a week ex bills( and eating quite well at a max cost of 2.50 euro per person per day, half that for the young fella ), i.e. were not eating cornflakes.
That 210euro includes fixing both cars( seems insane but we need 2 cars simply to get to our jobs ), car tax, insurance, NCT, typres, bins, food, food at work for both of us, nappies, baby wipes, toys, has to cover GP visits for the kid( several times we opted not to take the kid to see the GP ).
Roughly:
12% of our costs are petrol
28% on mortgage
15% Childcare( only 3 days a week )
8% gas + electricity
6% extra misc bills - internet/basic tv/1 mobile

The remaining 34% we have for everything else( and saving a tiny bit/very little from the 210euro spend. )

We have degrees and decent jobs( 1 private, 1 public ).
It doesnt bother me anymore, this is the state of the country, its a game of deciding at which point to decide to get fired and go on state benefit.

Were just cruising until the critical point, which will come soon enough, so really for a PAYE employee who cares about working anymore? and of course we'd both get to spend the full day with the little man.

Just as an example i spent 500 euro on GP visits in April for our kid, 140euro on prescriptions( been spending 140euro per month on prescriptions for the past year ), luckly he hasnt had an illness like that since, but how the **** can you afford that $hit working? we even have VHI but its a load of ****, i.e has all sorts of crap terms and conditions( will change it, im just saying )

avalon68

Celticfire wrote: »

How do you know his spouse didn't loose her job a few years ago?
As regards overtime as far as I am aware it was something that could be relied upon before that was also reduced and done away with.

Perhaps there were savings and four years later they're gone..

In a way its irrelevant how they came to be in the situation - they have to deal with it, and if that means downsizing to what they can afford, then thats what they should do. Think of all the people right now who have lost their jobs completely and have a mortgage - how do you think they feel hearing this guy and his wife whinging that a 65000 salary (twice the average wage almost) is poverty. And if they have been relying on savings for 4 years to make ends meet, then they have had ample time to make other arrangements before now.

Hotblack Desiato

Kids eating cornflakes? This time last year the Irish Times ran a 'story' about a kid eating cardboard... so clearly the economy is improving

The cardboard story had zero credibility and this one doesn't either. Forget all the private sector vs. public, and how much a Garda sergeant should or shouldn't be earning, and 'prestigious college' (no fees, and registration fee is the same however 'prestigious' your college is) and all the rest for a minute.
A 1400 euro mortgage is easily manageable on the salary figures given. There is a LOT here we're not being told. e.g. investment properties? holiday home? did they sell their previous place in 2005 (which should have made them a tidy profit at the time) or keep it and let it? did they run up massive lifestyle debts when times were 'good' ? are they paying no private health insurance, a basic plan or a gilt edged plan?

Stheno

avalon68 wrote: »

In a way its irrelevant how they came to be in the situation - they have to deal with it, and if that means downsizing to what they can afford, then thats what they should do. Think of all the people right now who have lost their jobs completely and have a mortgage - how do you think they feel hearing this guy and his wife whinging that a 65000 salary (twice the average wage almost) is poverty. And if they have been relying on savings for 4 years to make ends meet, then they have had ample time to make other arrangements before now.

Imagine being someone with a €1400 mortgage and losing your job?

All of us can do that. Those on the straight and narrow will say that's what mortgage insurance is for.

Those less so will say benefits will cover it, and belated discover it does not as it is very rigid in it's application

Those who never bothered will be fecked.

Everyone needs to adjust, but if you are used to an environment where supplementary payments such as overtime, allowances and bonuses are engrained as guaranteed, it's hard to live that lifestyle, and living appropriately can be a challenge.

Tipp Man

mariaalice wrote: »

People are entirely missing the point its not how cheaply you can feed you family or how to save a bit of money here and there, its about the expectation of a certain life style I am not talking about a sense of entitlement its a lot more complex that that. Its the belief that a middle ranking public servant could have a 4 bedroom house, live in a "good" area afford music lessons for the children, send the children to a good university, have saving and a good pension, or to put it another way have a middle class lifestyle and who knows maybe thats OK and its a legitimate exportation.

This is it in a nutshell

Its all about the lifestyle now

Tipp Man

Celticfire wrote: »

Accident is the operative word. By not following safe working practices accidents happen.

Will you stop

There are more people killed annually on farms than in a couple of decades of gardai being killed on the job