The silent poverty class

krd

djpbarry wrote: »

We have absolutely no idea how much the house cost.

I was making a rough guess of how much the mortgage would be for. For 1,400, the mortgage is in and around 250,000 - but they may owe more.

How do you know they weren't trading up for example? The husband is apparently over 50, so it seems very unlikely they were first-time buyers.

"trading up"....a wonderful property porn phrase....Haven't heard that in a while.

"Trading up"...Where people with a mortgage nearly paid off on a perfectly fine house, in a perfectly fine neighborhood, loaded themselves down with massive debt, when they could have been looking at having loads of disposable income in the later half of their working lives, to go on nice holidays, save for their retirement.............Instead they "traded up".

Climb higher on that property ladder. "We have arrived - we've done something with our lives - we're successful!!!"

I'm weeping......but don't worry, it's tears of laughter.

They thought they were smart....but they were the fools. I know people who sold their houses at the top of the market. The clever thing was to trade down..........trade down......when the eejits are waving cash at you, take their money and run.....I know people who are looking forward to a very nice retirement.

Well, yeah, of course it will? They rent out the house and move somewhere smaller, thus reducing their expenditure.

No.non, no...I don't think that would work out. Could they afford three or four months of the house being empty before they find tenants?...Could they make it through one month?..........There's a few of them in it, so they'll still be looking at a few hundred quid a month. Or maybe they could get a carvan, and live in their front garden. Or roam the roads, like bohemians.

If they rent their house, and the rent is lower than the mortgage, then they'll have to make up the difference, so they're back to square one - or even in a worse position.

Well, if you don't mind, I'll go by the latest Daft rental report for an indication of the going rate in Dublin for a 4-bed house (€1,200 - 2,000).

Well, if you don't mind...you can pull the other one. It's got a Sherry Fitz report on it.

2,000 for a four bedroom house.....Me arse....

Aw, I have to stop...I'm choke meself to death with laughter. "Trading up"..."Get on the property ladder"...."soft landing".....

djpbarry

krd wrote: »

"trading up"....a wonderful property porn phrase....Haven't heard that in a while.

"Trading up"...Where people with a mortgage nearly paid off on a perfectly fine house, in a perfectly fine neighborhood, loaded themselves down with massive debt, when they could have been looking at having loads of disposable income in the later half of their working lives, to go on nice holidays, save for their retirement.............Instead they "traded up".

Climb higher on that property ladder. "We have arrived - we've done something with our lives - we're successful!!!"

I'm weeping......but don't worry, it's tears of laughter.

They thought they were smart....but they were the fools. I know people who sold their houses at the top of the market. The clever thing was to trade down..........trade down......when the eejits are waving cash at you, take their money and run.....I know people who are looking forward to a very nice retirement.

Is there a point in there somewhere that you're trying to make?

krd wrote: »

No.non, no...I don't think that would work out. Could they afford three or four months of the house being empty before they find tenants?...Could they make it through one month?

I have no idea. But, I'm sure if they explained their situation to the bank, some leeway may be obtainable, especially if the rental value is above €1,400 per month.

You're saying that renting out their home is completely out of the question because the property might be empty for a bit?

krd wrote: »

If they rent their house, and the rent is lower than the mortgage, then they'll have to make up the difference...

Ok - so?

If they rent the place out for, say, €1,300 per month, and find a place for themselves for, say, €1,000 per month, they're €300 per month better off, aren't they? Probably more actually, because it shouldn't be any trouble at all to slash those colossal bills.

krd wrote: »

Well, if you don't mind...you can pull the other one. It's got a Sherry Fitz report on it.

Off you go and produce something better then.

krd wrote: »

2,000 for a four bedroom house.....Me arse....

There are currently 86 four-bedroom properties listed on Daft for €2,000 per month or more. Considerably more in some cases.

Gumbo

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Retirement is not a big issue for the PS. Drop in salary = 30% or so. Still the length of the mortgage is weird.

Think you need to re-work your figures.
PS pension is 50% of final salary, not 70% as you posted

Hotblack Desiato

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Retirement is not a big issue for the PS. Drop in salary = 30% or so.

That's a load of crap. Maximum pension is 50% after 40 years service (less service for a Garda though) and with no OAP entitlement on top. There's no point trotting out all the old myths that have been debunked endlessly in countless threads already.

Don't bother bringing up the DAA, that's a semi-state, not taxpayer funded, and irrelevant to your utterly ridiculous claim. Please have the decency to retract it.

krd

djpbarry wrote: »

Is there a point in there somewhere that you're trying to make?

Yes there is my friend. And if you didn't get it - just read it again, until the point is driven home to you.

I have no idea. But, I'm sure if they explained their situation to the bank, some leeway may be obtainable,

The banks are up to their balls in "leeway" at the moment. And no, they're not in a good position.

especially if the rental value is above €1,400 per month.

Aw, haw, the bank gave the mortgage on the basis that the house was a primary residence. Not a BuyToLet, hardcorepropertyporn, "investment". The bank will not be that impressed with what essentially boils down to the rearrangement of decks on a distressed vessel.

You're saying that renting out their home is completely out of the question because the property might be empty for a bit?
Ok - so?

Okay, my friend, let's look at the figures. Sometimes it feels like I'm nearly one of the only people in the country who can add, multiply and subtract.

Rental at an €1,400, is optimistic. That's expecting a 100% occupancy throughout the year. As little as two or three months empty, and there are problems that defeat the whole exercise. One month empty would mean an average rent for the year at €1283. Two months empty, and average of €1166. Three months empty, an average of €1050.

If they rent the place out for, say, €1,300 per month, and find a place for themselves for, say, €1,000 per month, they're €300 per month better off, aren't they?

For €1,300, can't even afford for the place to be empty a single month - it would wipe out the purpose of the whole exercise. And since their mortgage is €1,400, they need to come up with an extra €100. But that is with 100% occupancy of their house. I'm not doing anymore calculations. But, it's simple as this, a single month empty and it defeats the whole purpose. Two months empty and they're worse off than if they'd never done anything.

The sums aren't rocket science. It's national school stuff. But it seems the figures were too much work for the "winning" baboons of Celtic Tiger Ireland.

Probably more actually, because it shouldn't be any trouble at all to slash those colossal bills.

Or their throats. I grew up in a house, where we switched off the lights in any room that wasn't being used. Where we always made sure the heaters were switched off in rooms that weren't being used, before we switched the heating on. Where we learned how long it took to heat water for a shower. Where most of the time our hot water was off - because it's cheaper to boil a kettle if you need a little hot water. We found drafts and blocked them.

And surprise surprise. I've never had a shocking electricity bill in my life. Apart from one time, I lived with an arse who came from one of those homes where they have it blasting like a sauna 24/7. If you're cold, put a jumper on.

Off you go and produce something better then.

Anything I write here is far more reliable than a Smug Orsed Sherry Fitz report. Wear a shiny suit, and smort shoes, the typical Irish baboon will think not only are you genius. But that you're trust worthy.

There are currently 86 four-bedroom properties listed on Daft for €2,000 per month or more. Considerably more in some cases.

Yes....They're being advertised at those prices.......because they are vacant. When they are vacant, they're not making money. Again, I'm not doing the calculations. But a mortgage of 1,400...to break even, you might need close to 2,000, per month just to cover the vacant periods.

And here, I have to stop my friend.....As my neighbours may think I have lost my mind....I'm cackling and shrieking so much.

Flap your wings, you're not falling, you're flying...and it's a "soft landing" anyhow.


Flap your wings.

Stheno

Update on the original article.

€200 a week on food :eek:
€60 a week on clothes!

In a post on Thursday evening, Kathy Sheridan added the following:
A few points are worth repeating about the article and the background to its publication. My first duty was to protect the family’s anonymity, so significant details such as the number of children were withheld.

Verification of the garda’s weekly income was available in the form of his payslip and we had permission to publish it in its original form, with name and identifying details redacted. A view was taken by senior editors, however, that certain other details might have identified the payee so this too was withheld.

The family has been characterised by some as foolishly clinging to “middle-class” fixations, such as private health insurance. The wife has explained that her husband is over 50 and in stressful work. They do not smoke or socialise. She is acutely aware that buying a house at the height of the property boom was a poor decision in hindsight. As other have argued here, they are hardly exceptional in that.

The payslip and the Mabs analysis of weekly expenditure confirm that there is no financial “black hole”. There have been efforts to supplement their income.

The point of the article was not to defend the past or present choices of any individual but to provide an insight into how the timing of that decision to buy a home and the cuts in public service pay and overtime have affected one middle-income public servant’s family. Contrary to some of the comment here, I have often written in the past about the difficulty of persuading such people to give interviews. The harshness of some of the criticism directed at this family explains why perhaps.

I accept that the figures could have been better explained in the original article.

To clarify : the garda sergeant earned €75,000 gross LAST year, including allowances and considerable overtime. That was clearly an exceptional year.

Now, the family’s total weekly income, including child benefit, is €807 net, according to Mabs. The following is its projected weekly expenditure, according to a schedule prepared by the same agency :

Mortgage (interest only): €280.00
Mortgage Protection Insurance €15,00
Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00
Food/Housekeeping €200,00
Electricity Usage €25.00
Heat/Fuel Usage €25.00
TV licence €4.00
Waste Charges €5.00
Telephone/Other utilities €43.00
Transports costs €127.50
Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00
Clothing/Footwear €60.00
Medical costs (insurance) €73.23
Repairs & Maintenance €20.00
Other Expenditure €84.00
Credit Union €50.00

Total €1,093.73

Not included are weekly pension-related contributions of around €80.

mariaalice

OK I do feel very sorry for them now, in a way maybe the whole thing just creep up on them.

I still think 75k is a large income I don't think I will ever earn as much as that and I have a good job.

Idbatterim

are the kids of working age working? even if it is a part time job to help with bills, college fees etc?

Stheno

mariaalice wrote: »

OK I do feel very sorry for them now, in a way maybe the whole thing just creep up on them.

I still think 75k is a large income I don't think I will ever earn as much as that and I have a good job.

His basic is 51k, which people seem to be constantly missing out on.

Still though, when you consider some of their outgoings they are excessive.

They seperately call out €108.33 per month for heat and electricity and then another €186 per month on telephone and other utilities?

What other utilities? You can get phone, broadband and tv for much less than that?

They spend €866 per month on food and housekeeping, given the childrens allowance looks to be for probably two children, that's over 200 per month per person?

And €260 per month on clothes?

There is a fair bit of scope there to actually cut back in my opinion?

krd

mariaalice wrote: »

OK I do feel very sorry for them now, in a way maybe the whole thing just creep up on them.

Okay, I'll put my hands up......For a short period in my life.. I was kind of a mortgage advisor.......Kind of...I wasn't pushing mortgages on people, I was evaluating them. And this was for the UK not Ireland.

My job was to talk people out of it, more so than talk them into it. Because, it's a complete waste of time, to go through a long process with people, and in the end they realise they're walking themselves into something crazy and they back out.

The difference in Ireland seemed to be, flog the mortgage at all costs. Even if the situation is complete unsuitable.

I would have said to that sergeant "Get back on your donkey Sheriff, and ride out of town..........El Passo Interesto Onlyo, is no country for your kind. Especially given your age and health - enjoy what time you have left with your wife and family, my friend"

I still think 75k is a large income I don't think I will ever earn as much as that and I have a good job.

It's the same with every income bracket. If you bite off more than you can chew, you've bitten off more than you can chew.

I think frugality is oversold these days.....I would recommend thinking...or at least looking before you leap........Or brushing up on your National School Maths before making a major purchase. And not listening to any arse from Sherry Fitz....Ever thus the bums.

djpbarry

krd wrote: »

The bank will not be that impressed with what essentially boils down to the rearrangement of decks on a distressed vessel.

Doesn’t matter – they have little choice if they want to keep getting their mortgage payments.

krd wrote: »

Okay, my friend, let's look at the figures. Sometimes it feels like I'm nearly one of the only people in the country who can add, multiply and subtract.

Rental at an €1,400, is optimistic.

Now that’s not adding, multiplying or subtracting – that’s speculating. Rather baseless speculation, I might add.

But seeing as we’re on the subject, what do you suppose a 4-bed house in, say, Leopardstown, will fetch on the rental market?

krd wrote: »

For €1,300, can't even afford for the place to be empty a single month - it would wipe out the purpose of the whole exercise.

How? Eleven months’ rental income would be €14,300. Twelve months’ mortgage payments would be €16,800. So, once they spend less than €14,300 on renting a place for themselves (which shouldn’t be difficult), they’re still better off.

What was that you were saying about your ability to do arithmetic?

krd wrote: »

The sums aren't rocket science. It's national school stuff. But it seems the figures were too much work for the "winning" baboons of Celtic Tiger Ireland.

Careful now - you’re making yourself look rather foolish.

krd wrote: »

I grew up in a house...

Wonderful – thanks for sharing.

krd wrote: »

Anything I write here is far more reliable than a Smug Orsed Sherry Fitz report.

Your "sums" above are demonstrably unreliable.

Stheno

djpbarry wrote: »

Doesn’t matter – they have little choice if they want to keep getting their mortgage payments.
Now that’s not adding, multiplying or subtracting – that’s speculating. Rather baseless speculation, I might add.

But seeing as we’re on the subject, what do you suppose a 4-bed house in, say, Leopardstown, will fetch on the rental market?
How? Eleven months’ rental income would be €14,300. Twelve months’ mortgage payments would be €16,800. So, once they spend less than €14,300 on renting a place for themselves (which shouldn’t be difficult), they’re still better off.

What was that you were saying about your ability to do arithmetic?

Would they not have a tax liability on any portion of the rent above the mortgage interest?

Sorry just remembered given my previous post that they are interest only so it's not applicable.

How much the true mortgage is is frightening to think of, it has to be at least double the current figure.

krd

djpbarry wrote: »

Doesn’t matter – they have little choice if they want to keep getting their mortgage payments.

They've enough income to meet the mortgage payments - but they will suffer. And there isn't any light at the end of the tunnel for them.

Now that’s not adding, multiplying or subtracting – that’s speculating.

You need to speculate, to accumulate...;)

Rather baseless speculation, I might add.

Baseless speculation, isn't that how we built the bubble.

But seeing as we’re on the subject, what do you suppose a 4-bed house in, say, Leopardstown, will fetch on the rental market?

Leopardstown is out in the middle of nowhere. It's near UCD, so you have UCD students - they'll move in, two to a room and wreck the place - and you'll only have them for the academic year. But it's not really a 'des res' for young renters. These places only really have the snob value for buyers - renters are just passing through - sleeping middle-class estates are not really such a hot option.

How? Eleven months’ rental income would be €14,300. Twelve months’ mortgage payments would be €16,800. So, once they spend less than €14,300 on renting a place for themselves (which shouldn’t be difficult), they’re still better off.

If they're lucky enough to get €1,300, for eleven months, and if the place they're renting is €1,000, they're €500 down by moving.

Listen....they're screwed.

What was that you were saying about your ability to do arithmetic?

Even doing quick rough arithmetic in my head, they're still screwed. I'm not buying their blood place...I was, I'd sit down with the spreadsheets and work every last detail out.

Careful now - you’re making yourself look rather foolish.

Yes, my friend....I may look foolish......But you sir....

Wonderful – thanks for sharing.

A pleasure.

Your "sums" above are demonstrably unreliable.

You know something.......I've had as much of your Donkey **** as I can take for a night sir.

Adieu.

Hotblack Desiato

Stheno wrote: »

Update on the original article.

€200 a week on food :eek:
€60 a week on clothes!

200 a week for food/groceries for a family of 4 or 5 isn't that much, especially if there's a child still in nappies. Although Lidl nappies are better than the well known brands and half the price...

60 a week on clothes - madness

Telephone/Other utilities €43.00 - wtf? This is after paying for electricity, heating and waste charges. Teenagers clinging onto their iPhones paid for by mammy and daddy? Fancy broadband? Sky Sports?? We pay about 76 a month for 2 mobiles, landline inc calls, and DSL. TV is Saorview and Freesat.

Transports costs €127.50 - Hard to see how they could spend that much if the wife doesn't work, they live in south Dublin *cough* and presumably he is based in Dublin. Car loan for that fancy boomtime SUV?

Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00 - wtf?? Private schooling. Thought they said they weren't paying the college reg fee or the grandparents were going to...

Clothing/Footwear €60.00 - again, just because I couldn't believe it the first time

Medical costs (insurance) €73.23 - wtf?? Are they all on the Blackrock Clinic VHI plan or what.

Farmer Pudsey

Stheno wrote: »

Would they not have a tax liability on any portion of the rent above the mortgage interest?

Sorry just remembered given my previous post that they are interest only so it's not applicable.

How much the true mortgage is is frightening to think of, it has to be at least double the current figure.

Yes they would as only 75% of the intrest is allowable against tax. Lokk renting the house is not a solution unless they can move in with his or her parents which is not ideal or even a suggestion. Aside from even an empty period what if a tennant refuses to pay or wrecks the place.

looking at the figures





To clarify : the garda sergeant earned €75,000 gross LAST year, including allowances and considerable overtime. That was clearly an exceptional year.

Now, the family’s total weekly income, including child benefit, is €807 net, according to Mabs. The following is its projected weekly expenditure, according to a schedule prepared by the same agency :

Mortgage (interest only): €280.00
Mortgage Protection Insurance €15,00
Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00
Food/Housekeeping €200,00
Electricity Usage €25.00
Heat/Fuel Usage €25.00
TV licence €4.00
Waste Charges €5.00
Telephone/Other utilities €43.00
Transports costs €127.50
Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00
Clothing/Footwear €60.00
Medical costs (insurance) €73.23
Repairs & Maintenance €20.00
Other Expenditure €84.00
Credit Union €50.00

Total €1,093.73

Not included are weekly pension-related contributions of around €80.

There seems very little leeway in the figures maybe they could cut back in the shopping and 3K a year on clothing seems excessive. When the credit union loan is paid off maybe they can use that as well. Other expenditure 4.5K/year I like to know what that is for.

It take a lot of mental toughness to get through situtations like this it often means taking the sambo's and flask to work and spending nothing and I mean nothing. Maybe his wife can try to find a parttime or fulltime job.

However without her getting a job can they sustain that sort of a life longer than 2-3 years, I do not think it can be done

Stheno

ninja900 wrote: »

200 a week for food/groceries for a family of 4 or 5 isn't that much, especially if there's a child still in nappies.

60 a week on clothes - madness

Telephone/Other utilities €43.00 - wtf? This is after paying for electricity, heating and waste charges. Teenagers clinging onto their iPhones paid for by mammy and daddy? Fancy broadband? Sky Sports?? We pay about 76 a month for 2 mobiles, landline inc calls, and DSL. TV is Saorview and Freesat.

Transports costs €127.50 - Hard to see how they could spend that much if the wife doesn't work, they live in south Dublin *cough* and presumably he is based in Dublin. Car loan for that fancy boomtime SUV?

Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00 - wtf?? Private schooling. Thought they said they weren't paying the college reg fee or the grandparents were going to...

Clothing/Footwear €60.00 - again, just because I couldn't believe it the first time

Medical costs (insurance) €73.23 - wtf?? Are they all on the Blackrock Clinic VHI plan or what.

Given the age of the husband and the fact they talk about college I'd doubt they have children in nappies to be fair?

Medical costs apparently is mandatory insurance for Gardai that they cannot avoid.

I agree with you on the rest, I can't imagine paying some of the sums they mention.

I drive to work every day from North Dublin to the City Centre and even considering tax insurance, petrol, car maintenance and NCT every year, the figure is excessive.

ActingDanClark

That's what garda medical insurance costs, his prsi/usc confer no free medical cover

Hotblack Desiato

Stheno wrote: »

Given the age of the husband and the fact they talk about college I'd doubt they have children in nappies to be fair?

A man can father a baby at 90, no problem it was the norm in Ireland not that long ago to have 20 years between the youngest and oldest child.. we don't know.

Medical costs apparently is mandatory insurance for Gardai that they cannot avoid.

I thought that was deducted at source? This is what is coming out of their net income, yes?

I'd overlooked the 'other expenditure' :rolleyes: the whole point of doing a budget is to account for everything as far as possible, and not have a substantial chunk of money disappearing into 'other' without being broken down (and therefore scrutinised.)

Still think they need a good slap around the head (metaphorically) to wake them up. There's a recession on, lots of people have had their incomes reduced substantially (including me, as well as that my wife has stopped working to mind the kids, but that's our choice and we deal with it, and at least no childcare to pay!) cut your cloth to suit your measure etc.

Ironically the mortgage (even at 1400, not the interest only figure given) is the least of their worries. They could easily be stuck with a mortgage twice that in the sort of property described. They're paying similar, or less, than the rent of that property would be.

Sleepy

Quick look at the figues:

Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00 - get rid of the contents insurance, how many guards homes get burgled in fairness?

Food/Housekeeping €200,00 - Learn to shop in Lidl, Tesco etc. We get everything for a family of four, including alcohol for about €120/130 a week.

Telephone/Other utilities €43.00 - get better plans / lose the Sky/NTL

Transports costs €127.50 - downsize the car(s), plenty of cheap to run bangers available

Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00

Clothing/Footwear €60.00 - Over 3k a year on clothes?! He wears a uniform for work! Learn to shop in Penneys with the rest of us.

Plenty of fat to trim on that budget which could help pay towards some of the mortgage principal. It won't be a fun life but that's his own fault. Added to that, his retirement lump sum will make a major dent on the mortgage and at least he has a pension unlike many of us at his salary level.

BTW: who are the morons in MABS that can't do what those of us on this forum can do in 10 minutes?

EDIT: didn't see the bit about the insurance being a requirement for Gardaí so removed it from my post, the €84 a month needs examining, as does the complete inability of the wife to bring in any income: child-minding if her own are that young that she needs to be at home, full or part-time job etc.

The "exceptional year" of overtime needs examining too: how was overtime so available during last year's stage of the recession but utterly unavailable this year!?) That would add about a grand a month to their net income.

Stheno

Sleepy wrote: »

Quick look at the figues:

Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00 - get rid of the contents insurance, how many guards homes get burgled in fairness?

Food/Housekeeping €200,00 - Learn to shop in Lidl, Tesco etc. We get everything for a family of four, including alcohol for about €120/130 a week.

Telephone/Other utilities €43.00 - get better plans / lose the Sky/NTL

Transports costs €127.50 - downsize the car(s), plenty of cheap to run bangers available

Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00

Clothing/Footwear €60.00 - Over 3k a year on clothes?! He wears a uniform for work! Learn to shop in Penneys with the rest of us.

Plenty of fat to trim on that budget which could help pay towards some of the mortgage principal. It won't be a fun life but that's his own fault. Added to that, his retirement lump sum will make a major dent on the mortgage and at least he has a pension unlike many of us at his salary level.

BTW: who are the morons in MABS that can't do what those of us on this forum can do in 10 minutes?

EDIT: didn't see the bit about the insurance being a requirement for Gardaí so removed it from my post, the €84 a month needs examining, as does the complete inability of the wife to bring in any income: child-minding if her own are that young that she needs to be at home, full or part-time job etc.

The €84 per WEEK could be a night out, considering the OH and myself spent 35 on a nice enough dinner for our anniversary that could be halved.

As I posted before, I took a paycut of over a third on a very good salary, it was a shock, but I adjusted, and you know the nicer things in life are more lovely when you experience them less

The budget they posted is very very extravagent to me.

Farmer Pudsey

Sleepy wrote: »

The "exceptional year" of overtime needs examining too: how was overtime so available during last year's stage of the recession but utterly unavailable this year!?) That would add about a grand a month to their net income.

Let see Queenie visited and we had an early gathering from an decendant of an Offaly man both would have helped the income of a dublin based guard.

Stheno

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Let see Queenie visited and we had an early gathering from an decendant of an Offaly man both would have helped the income of a dublin based guard.

That's not something to depend on though.

I get a very large bonus with very rigourous conditions in my job, I never ever include it when budgeting.

Hotblack Desiato

Sleepy wrote: »

Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00 - get rid of the contents insurance, how many guards homes get burgled in fairness?

http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/07/28/stolen-usb-stick-contained-police-investigation-details/ wrote:

Greater Manchester Police have warned that sensitive information about an ongoing criminal investigation was contained on a USB memory stick stolen from an officer's home in Oldham, UK.

Food/Housekeeping €200,00 - Learn to shop in Lidl, Tesco etc. We get everything for a family of four, including alcohol for about €120/130 a week.

That is certainly possible if you're strict about not buying anything branded in Lidl (costs the same there as in Tesco or Dunnes).

Clothing/Footwear €60.00 - Over 3k a year on clothes?! He wears a uniform for work! Learn to shop in Penneys with the rest of us.

Or Oxfam ffs we gave away enough outgrown, hardly worn kids clothes over the last few years. Tons of bargains in charity shops, the real cost for some is swallowing their pride methinks.
{rant}everything pink for girls means the younger son can't wear it, the bastards{/rant}

BTW: who are the morons in MABS that can't do what those of us on this forum can do in 10 minutes?

There is so much that still doesn't add up about this story.

It's ironic though that every time the Irish Times prints a story about the 'tortured middle classes' eating cardboard/cornflakes, it never adds up, not even close.

krd

Sleepy wrote: »

Clothing/Footwear €60.00 - Over 3k a year on clothes?! He wears a uniform for work! Learn to shop in Penneys with the rest of us.

Penneys?......Penneys?........Bloody Luxury!!!!

I have to prowl the streets around dawn looking for homeless people who've died the night before. Pull their boots and trousers off, before the vultures arrive. And some aren't even fully dead yet, and whatever it is left in them putting up some last struggle. Quivering of hypothermia in the early morning light - limbs flaying in spasms. It's horrible.

Penneys....Luxury....bloody luxury.

Stheno

krd wrote: »

Penneys?......Penneys?........Bloody Luxury!!!!

I have to prowl the streets around dawn looking for homeless people who've died the night before. Pull their boots and trousers off, before the vultures arrive. And some aren't even fully dead yet, and whatever it is left in them putting up some last struggle. Quivering of hypothermia in the early morning light - limbs flaying in spasms. It's horrible.

Penneys....Luxury....bloody luxury.

I like good clothes, and well made clothes, and still wouldn't spend an eight of this family

djpbarry

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Lokk renting the house is not a solution unless they can move in with his or her parents which is not ideal or even a suggestion. Aside from even an empty period what if a tennant refuses to pay or wrecks the place.

That's what leases are for.

In any event, as has been pointed out several times by others, they have plenty of room to manoeuvre with regard to other expenses - their mortgage payments really aren't that high.

mariaalice

It is a hard situation to be in but there is still no real examination of why they got themselves in to the situation in the first place maybe that dose not matter.

In the first article it said they had a large family and thats telling, I know a few middle class families with the lifestyle of 4 children/gailscoil family life based around the children, that sort of lifestyle is very very expensive children do not come cheap and it a chosen lifestyle.

The only thing is maybe it will make some people reading this realist that they can only afford to have 2 children and they cant afford a bigger house and save themselves for getting in to the same position as that family.

Tim Robbins

Sleepy wrote: »

Quick look at the figues:

Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00 - get rid of the contents insurance, how many guards homes get burgled in fairness?

Food/Housekeeping €200,00 - Learn to shop in Lidl, Tesco etc. We get everything for a family of four, including alcohol for about €120/130 a week.

Telephone/Other utilities €43.00 - get better plans / lose the Sky/NTL

Transports costs €127.50 - downsize the car(s), plenty of cheap to run bangers available

Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00

Clothing/Footwear €60.00 - Over 3k a year on clothes?! He wears a uniform for work! Learn to shop in Penneys with the rest of us.

Plenty of fat to trim on that budget which could help pay towards some of the mortgage principal. It won't be a fun life but that's his own fault. Added to that, his retirement lump sum will make a major dent on the mortgage and at least he has a pension unlike many of us at his salary level.

BTW: who are the morons in MABS that can't do what those of us on this forum can do in 10 minutes?

EDIT: didn't see the bit about the insurance being a requirement for Gardaí so removed it from my post, the €84 a month needs examining, as does the complete inability of the wife to bring in any income: child-minding if her own are that young that she needs to be at home, full or part-time job etc.

The "exceptional year" of overtime needs examining too: how was overtime so available during last year's stage of the recession but utterly unavailable this year!?) That would add about a grand a month to their net income.

I think anyone trying to live on 30K a year or the dole would be sick reading about these people.

Gumbo

Stheno wrote: »

I like good clothes, and well made clothes, and still wouldn't spend an eight of this family

in fairness, 60e per week divided out over the whole family is not a lot.

krd

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think anyone trying to live on 30K a year or the dole would be sick reading about these people.

The average pay of an Irish Times journalist is 30k. That's the average pay. After the "leadership" is taken care of, most IT staff wouldn't break the 30.

Gumbo

krd wrote: »

The average pay of an Irish Times journalist is 30k. That's the average pay. After the "leadership" is taken care of, most IT staff wouldn't break the 30.

Any figures for that? Ive heard of larger salaries in the IT.

Black Smoke

Does anybody, seriously pay a TV licence:cool:

Gumbo

Black Smoke wrote: »

Does anybody, seriously pay a TV licence:cool:

Yes, if you have a TV, why not?

Duggys Housemate

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think anyone trying to live on 30K a year or the dole would be sick reading about these people.

Unless they are on 30K with no mortgage, or no kids etc. In which case they are probably doing better per capita.

Tim Robbins

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Unless they are on 30K with no mortgage, or no kids etc. In which case they are probably doing better per capita.

And yet a huge number of Irish people want child benefit cut.

SubBusted

Would be better that the Government pay instead the people with no kids.

lmimmfn

SubBusted wrote: »

Would be better that the Government pay instead the people with no kids.

that would make for a fun retirement

Icepick

Stheno wrote: »

Imagine being someone with a €1400 mortgage and losing your job?

All of us can do that.

not, not all of us

SouperComputer

This article really should be about how unscrupulous MABS are TBH.
Downsize. Yeah it sucks, grow a pair and get over yourself. Prioritise.

Cal per euro Cornflakes aren't cheap in any way shape or form. Dont waste my time with the tugging at heartstring rubbish. Get a feckin calculator.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes they would as only 75% of the intrest is allowable against tax. Lokk renting the house is not a solution unless they can move in with his or her parents which is not ideal or even a suggestion. Aside from even an empty period what if a tennant refuses to pay or wrecks the place.

looking at the figures





To clarify : the garda sergeant earned €75,000 gross LAST year, including allowances and considerable overtime. That was clearly an exceptional year.

Now, the family’s total weekly income, including child benefit, is €807 net, according to Mabs. The following is its projected weekly expenditure, according to a schedule prepared by the same agency :

Mortgage (interest only): €280.00
Mortgage Protection Insurance €15,00
Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00
Food/Housekeeping €200,00
Electricity Usage €25.00
Heat/Fuel Usage €25.00
TV licence €4.00
Waste Charges €5.00
Telephone/Other utilities €43.00
Transports costs €127.50
Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00
Clothing/Footwear €60.00
Medical costs (insurance) €73.23
Repairs & Maintenance €20.00
Other Expenditure €84.00
Credit Union €50.00

Total €1,093.73

Not included are weekly pension-related contributions of around €80.

There seems very little leeway in the figures maybe they could cut back in the shopping and 3K a year on clothing seems excessive. When the credit union loan is paid off maybe they can use that as well. Other expenditure 4.5K/year I like to know what that is for.

It take a lot of mental toughness to get through situtations like this it often means taking the sambo's and flask to work and spending nothing and I mean nothing. Maybe his wife can try to find a parttime or fulltime job.

However without her getting a job can they sustain that sort of a life longer than 2-3 years, I do not think it can be done

Farmer, you are spinning here, there is a lot of fat in this budget.

€43 a week on telephones/other utilities translates into €172 per month!

UPC basic bundle plus 5 pay as you go mobile phones with €20 credit each per month is €169 giving you close to the €172. Why do they need that? My kids have to get part-time jobs and babysit to pay for their mobile phone needs. You can live with mobile phones for adults only giving you a cost of €109 per month saving €63 per month on the MABS figures.

Educational costs equate to €75 per week translating into €3,900 per year. Are you serious? Really, do they go to a private school. If one kid is in uni, that may be the cost, but why doesn't the kid have a part-time job as most kids I know in uni do.

€7 per week on household insurance suggests more than an ordinary 3/4 bed semi and a lot of contents. €60 per month on mortgage protection also suggests more than a simple policy.

As for having to take the sambos and flask to work, who isn't doing this who has a family? Take me on a lunch out if you have money to spare.

You won't spend €3,000 per year on clothes and shoes if you shop in Dunnes and Penneys. But if you dress your kids in Hollister and the latest Premier League top you might.

I spend a lot on electricity and gas heating a poorly built house but not €200 per month. Use of a timer and wearing more clothes should reduce that.

The problem with all of this, and I include both the private sector and the public sector is that we expect too much. Many Americans can't afford HBO, yet every Irish person thinks they are entitled to SKY. Many Germans can't afford to go on holidays but every Irish person expects at least a weekend away in a top Irish hotel as well as two weeks in Spain, most expect more. MABS are part of the problem as are CWOs who hand out money to keep up these expectations.

Gumbo

Godge wrote: »

You won't spend €3,000 per year on clothes and shoes if you shop in Dunnes and Penneys. But if you dress your kids in Hollister and the latest Premier League top you might.

Yes you would, easily. I shop in Pennys/Dunnes for 80% of my day to day clothing.

€60 / 4 = €15 per week.

A decent Tee shirt in pennys is €6-€9
I just bought 2 pairs of chinos in Pennys, €12 & €15 per item.

You could very easily spend 3k per year on clothes for a family of 4, very easily, and that would just cover the basics and replacing the basics when required imo.

djpbarry

kceire wrote: »

€60 / 4 = €15 per week.

A decent Tee shirt in pennys is €6-€9
I just bought 2 pairs of chinos in Pennys, €12 & €15 per item.

You could very easily spend 3k per year on clothes for a family of 4, very easily...

How many pairs of chinos do you get through in a year?

Godge

kceire wrote: »

Yes you would, easily. I shop in Pennys/Dunnes for 80% of my day to day clothing.

€60 / 4 = €15 per week.

A decent Tee shirt in pennys is €6-€9
I just bought 2 pairs of chinos in Pennys, €12 & €15 per item.

You could very easily spend 3k per year on clothes for a family of 4, very easily, and that would just cover the basics and replacing the basics when required imo.

It was €60 per week. So every five weeks you could spend that on yourself in a five-person family. So 3 T-shirts and 2 chinos every five weeks costs €54 leaving six euro for underwear, socks and PJs. 30 T-shirts and 20 chinos in a year, don't think I have bought that many in five years.

The Clown Man

Was determined not to get involved but then I saw that MABS breakdown ...

€200 p/w for food and household? WTF?

What are they eating exactly and have they heard of Lidl?

As for the rest of the list, if this is what people are expected to accept as a minimum then what happened this country that it got so detracted from reality?

Do people really think that simply being born in Ireland entitles them to so much?

paul71

The Clown Man wrote: »

Was determined not to get involved but then I saw that MABS breakdown ...

€200 p/w for food and household? WTF?

What are they eating exactly and have they heard of Lidl?

As for the rest of the list, if this is what people are expected to accept as a minimum then what happened this country that it got so detracted from reality?

Do people really think that simply being born in Ireland entitles them to so much?

Lild would be a luxury in my view if their kids are hungry as they claim, dig up the suburban garden and grow spuds.

lmimmfn

SouperComputer wrote: »

Cal per euro Cornflakes aren't cheap in any way shape or form. Dont waste my time with the tugging at heartstring rubbish. Get a feckin calculator.

I find the cornflakes BS to be the strangest thing, we had that Kerry man saying his kids were eating a cornflakes box last year and now this.

A big box of cornflakes costs over 5 euro, maybe 6 or 7( i would be eating wheetabix if i was stuck lol ), that would get you a lot of spuds for chips/mashed etc. Its not only that you can easily cook meals for around 2 euro a meal( bolgonase, curry, chilli con carne etc. ), if 4 or 5 people were eating cornflakes all day the box would be finished in less than a day.

repsol

Agree with you SouperComputer about the price of cornflakes.When they start having "packet soup day" I might feel sorry for them.Personally I think the story is bogus.I know a few Gardai and they are very adept at finding nixers,doing overtime etc if they need a few extra quid.If it is a real story,the guy is hiding money from the wife and probably has a bird ,takes coke,drinks like a fish or gambles

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

Farmer, you are spinning here, there is a lot of fat in this budget.

.

Mortgage (interest only): €280.00
Mortgage Protection Insurance €15,00
Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00
Food/Housekeeping €200,00
Electricity Usage €25.00
Heat/Fuel Usage €25.00
TV licence €4.00
Waste Charges €5.00
Telephone/Other utilities €43.00
Transports costs €127.50
Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00
Clothing/Footwear €60.00
Medical costs (insurance) €73.23
Repairs & Maintenance €20.00
Other Expenditure €84.00
Credit Union €50.00

I got caught up the last time on people suggesting that the couple rent the house and rent another place them selves to save 2-300 euro/month. so lest look at the costs
Mortgage remain same and any saving's will end up there
He should not need mortgage protection as he is aguard and will not be made unemployes savings 15/week
House insurace stays the same
food/household 200/week hard to estimate TBh most middle class families are better to shop in LIDL/ALDI than othere however I have packed bags at super markets and have seen a lot of weekly shops at 150/week. Believe it or not it is the buiscuits and choclate that cost the money not the fancy stuff maybe there is 50 to be saves living hand to mouth

electricity 150-180/bill so 9-1100/year unless storage heating in house
Heating 25/week 1300/year less than the averagr see above a bag of coal is 14 euro's I wonder if it is storage heating and coal and bricketts for sitting room fire.
TV and waste not over the top
telephone 43/week average landline bill 100 a pop mobile's 5 in the house(adults and two kids) 20 every second month and replace 2 every 2-3 years (150/year) 1,300/year savings 17-18/week about the cost of sky

Transport 127/week car cost are huge a pre 2008 family car costs nearly 500/year car tax, remember they will get nothing for free so kids schoolbus cost and child in 3rd level will all have to be paid for ( when money is tight it costs more you cannot buy yearly tickets etc). Putting 40 euro in petrol into a car will give you 24 litres 3.5 gallons 140/miles a week. Insurance 4-450/year, Service and repair if you have not got a pair of hands 300/year NCT 20/year .All adds up maybe they can save 10 or 20 but it would be tight.

Education 3900/year-- college registration 2250 most secondarynational schools have a fee 1-200/family school books, school uniforms not much to save here
Clothing/footware 60/week 3K/year could be cut back on
Medical Insurance if under pressure have to be reduced especiall afrills policy like this

Repairs/ maintenance/other expendituse/Credit Union 150/week alot of questions here so on the whole they should be able to survive however for how long is this sustainable

Riskymove

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

He should not need mortgage protection as he is aguard and will not be made unemployes savings 15/week

AFAIK Mortgage protection is demanded by the bank. Its more about if someone died than about losing a job

OldNotWIse

This doesn't make any sense. I earn less than half of that, and do not get any allowances for dependants (doesnt matter how many times I show them my dogs food bill ) and I manage to pay rent, half my parent's mortgage, college fees and can still afford to eat, travel, and have a (albeit somewhat restricted) social life. Not trying to be self-righteous but... what are these people doing with their money??