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hallelujajordan wrote: »The role the previous government played in setting the conditions under which the current government have to operate and negotiate is largely irrelevant at this point.
To you, perhaps. But that was always going to be the case.hallelujajordan wrote: »TODAY, we the electorate are paying the government to do a job and we are paying the opposition to either oppose or support them depending on their point of view. Whether you like it or not, we returned 20 FF TDs to the Dail in February of last year and we asked them to do a job . . Would you really like to see FF give the government a free pass because of the role they played in creating the situation ?
What FF are doing is not "holding the government to account", but political point-scoring. Would I like to see FF not do the cheap point-scoring over a matter where the primary responsibility lies with them? No, no, I'm delighted to see them doing it, even if I'm appalled that it's going to work with a certain section of their erstwhile support. For those outside the ranks of the usually faithful, it may serve as a timely reminder of FF's willingness to overlook its own shortcomings in the service of its own interests.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Sierra Oscar wrote: »Blaming FF is wearing a little thin with everyone at this stage. The government has failed to get a deal on the debt write down, despite plenty of bluster over the last twelve months. You cannot point the finger at FF or any other opposition party for that failure.
....they wouldn't be in the position of having to get a deal if it wasn't for FF. Blaming FF won't "wear thin" until every individual who was involved with the previous FF administrations has left the building.0 -
....they wouldn't be in the position of having to get a deal if it wasn't for FF. Blaming FF won't "wear thin" until every individual who was involved with the previous FF administrations has left the building.
Really ? ?
And I suppose you base this analysis on the alternative fiscal policies that were put forward in successive FG manifestos during the 2000's ?0 -
If you mean it would always be the case that I would look forward rather than backwards then yes, I agree . . If you are suggesting that I am in some way failing to recognise the responsibility of FF in creating the troubles we now face then you are incorrect.To you, perhaps. But that was always going to be the case.
What is at issue here is whether or not FF have any right to play their role in opposing the government given that they governed during the time the trouble was caused. The right to represent is bestowed by the electorate. In February last year the electorate gave FF a serious kicking (deservedly!) but they also gave us a mandate to continue to work in their interest . .0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »If you mean it would always be the case that I would look forward rather than backwards then yes, I agree . . If you are suggesting that I am in some way failing to recognise the responsibility of FF in creating the troubles we now face then you are incorrect.
I'm not sure I can really take that seriously, given that you have, in fact, rejected that responsibility in large measure, and are attempting to palm it off on the current government.hallelujajordan wrote: »What is at issue here is whether or not FF have any right to play their role in opposing the government given that they governed during the time the trouble was caused. The right to represent is bestowed by the electorate. In February last year the electorate gave FF a serious kicking (deservedly!) but they also gave us a mandate to continue to work in their interest . .
No, that's not really the case, because it's not "holding the government to account" for the opposition to make political capital out of situations where the government is strongly constrained by circumstances - it's simply political opportunism and self-interest. When those circumstances were largely created by the opposition during its time in government, we move down another several notches into outright hypocrisy.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
I'm not sure I can really take that seriously, given that you have, in fact, rejected that responsibility in large measure, and are attempting to palm it off on the current government.
Nonsense . . If you check back on my posting history in 2011 you will see that I have often and openly recognised FF's responsibility. . . and I'm not sure where you see me 'palming off' responsibility for the financial crisis on the current government ? ? ?Scofflaw wrote:No, that's not really the case, because it's not "holding the government to account" for the opposition to make political capital out of situations where the government is strongly constrained by circumstances - it's simply political opportunism and self-interest. When those circumstances were largely created by the opposition during its time in government, we move down another several notches into outright hypocrisy.
cordially,
Scofflaw
You could similarly argue that FG / Labour are pursuing a different political agenda now to when they were in opposition (and in many respects different to the PfG)
You can call it opportunism / self-interest; I call it politics. FF are doing their best to hold the government to account. In doing so, they will be accused of hypocrisy and self interest and they will also win some support. If they don't do it then they may as well not be in there spending my money . . but if they don't do it who will ? The ULA ? SF ? The ragbag of Independents ??0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »Really ? ?
And I suppose you base this analysis on the alternative fiscal policies that were put forward in successive FG manifestos during the 2000's ?
The whole "the other shower wouldn't have done any better" line is fairly irrelevant, given that its speculation.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »Nonsense . . If you check back on my posting history in 2011 you will see that I have often and openly recognised FF's responsibility. . . and I'm not sure where you see me 'palming off' responsibility for the financial crisis on the current government ? ? ?
In previous posts, in the whole "looking forward" thing, in statements such as this:The role the previous government played in setting the conditions under which the current government have to operate and negotiate is largely irrelevant at this point.
Yes, it's a little more subtle than just baldly saying "the bad place where we are is totally the fault of the current government", but it amounts to the same thing.hallelujajordan wrote: »You could similarly argue that FG / Labour are pursuing a different political agenda now to when they were in opposition (and in many respects different to the PfG)
You can call it opportunism / self-interest; I call it politics. FF are doing their best to hold the government to account. In doing so, they will be accused of hypocrisy and self interest and they will also win some support.
Undeniably, and I too would call it "politics". Politics, however, is not statesmanship, and does not necessarily have the good of the country rather than party at heart.hallelujajordan wrote: »If they don't do it then they may as well not be in there spending my money . . but if they don't do it who will ? The ULA ? SF ? The ragbag of Independents ??
Oh...you mean the other people with a mandate bestowed by the electorate?
amused,
Scofflaw0 -
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In previous posts, in the whole "looking forward" thing, in statements such as this:
Yes, it's a little more subtle than just baldly saying "the bad place where we are is totally the fault of the current government", but it amounts to the same thing.
eh . . no, it doesn't . . asking the current government to focus and take accountability for current decision making is not the same as saying that the circumstances that led to those decisions being necessary was their fault. . In fact, it isn't even close . .
On that we can agree. . I'm not sure there is anyone in DE I would call a 'statesman' . . on either side of the house . .Undeniably, and I too would call it "politics". Politics, however, is not statesmanship, and does not necessarily have the good of the country rather than party at heart.Oh...you mean the other people with a mandate bestowed by the electorate?
amused,
Scofflaw
Fair point . . although I will argue (strongly) that despite the will of the people and the undeniable right of all 70-odd TD's on the opposition benches, Fianna Fail are in the best position to provide coherent opposition to the current government.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »eh . . no, it doesn't . . asking the current government to focus and take accountability for current decision making is not the same as saying that the circumstances that led to those decisions being necessary was their fault. . In fact, it isn't even close . .
It is if it's done properly! Indeed, it's the correct PR way to get out of public responsibility, by focusing on "looking forward" and implying that how we got to where we are isn't really important. Forgetting the past and absolution are hardly distinguishable, politically speaking.hallelujajordan wrote: »On that we can agree. . I'm not sure there is anyone in DE I would call a 'statesman' . . on either side of the house . .
Fair point . . although I will argue (strongly) that despite the will of the people and the undeniable right of all 70-odd TD's on the opposition benches, Fianna Fail are in the best position to provide coherent opposition to the current government.
Alas, one needs to take both those statements together. Fianna Fáil may indeed be the best able to provide coherent opposition, but that only reflects the truly appalling verging-on-fantasy output of the rest of the opposition.
And political point-scoring for the sake of public support remains populism where it's devoid of any other meaning, which remains the case here. The current government is operating in a straitjacket created by Fianna Fáil, and so Fianna Fáil criticising the adequacy of their gymnastics remains grotesque.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
The irony of all this is FF really do have a golden opportunity to just go "We did make mistakes as we didn't take tough enough decisions when the crisis hit".
They can then happily accuse the government of just faffing around - a criticism which would be real hard to defend against when constantly under criticism from the rest of the opposition for doing too much (nasty stuff).0 -
The irony of all this is FF really do have a golden opportunity to just go "We did make mistakes as we didn't take tough enough decisions when the crisis hit".
They can then happily accuse the government of just faffing around - a criticism which would be real hard to defend against when constantly under criticism from the rest of the opposition for doing too much (nasty stuff).
It would be realistic to accuse the government of being unwilling to take on the various vested interests who Fianna Fáil also pandered to in office, but perhaps a party which is both electorally and financially on its uppers needs all the friends it can get...?
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »It's as valid as the "we wouldn't be here if it weren't for Fianna Fail" line that you put forward . .
At least my speculation is based on published manifesto's . .
....we had a FF government that led to the disaster. That's a fact. In the battle between speculation and fact, speculation loses. This guff about manifestos means absolutely nothing because the others were not in government and did not have the means or opportunity. It's successive FF administrations that led to this debacle and while persons associated with those administrations are still involved actively with the party, its perfectly fair enough to point out the fact.0 -
It would be realistic to accuse the government of being unwilling to take on the various vested interests who Fianna Fáil also pandered to in office, but perhaps a party which is both electorally and financially on its uppers needs all the friends it can get...?
cordially,
Scofflaw
Well, FF can legitimately advance a "We made mistakes and we (try to) learn from them" line.
Particularly, if they are willing to publicly ruffle some of feathers of their former friends and/or advance some new ideas - let's say "The State is too centralized and we couldn't see the wood from the trees as a result when the crisis hit. Therefore we need more, not less, local government so the State can concentrate on the important rather than the popular issues".
That makes their case a bit stronger than the usual "It should be our a£&es warming the Ministerial seats rather than theirs" argument that both FG & FF have tended to favour.0 -
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....we had a FF government that led to the disaster. That's a fact. In the battle between speculation and fact, speculation loses. This guff about manifestos means absolutely nothing because the others were not in government and did not have the means or opportunity. It's successive FF administrations that led to this debacle and while persons associated with those administrations are still involved actively with the party, its perfectly fair enough to point out the fact.
And one might also point out that the opposition wishes to simultaneously capitalise on any failure by the government parties to honour commitments in their 2011 manifesto while claiming their previous manifestos as incontrovertible evidence of how they would have behaved in government. That only really works if you don't think about it too hard.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Well, FF can legitimately advance a "We made mistakes and we (try to) learn from them" line.
Certainly they could legitimately advance the first part - but the second part I'm not so sure of, particularly given the extent to which the first part is, when presented, minimised as much as possible. The mistakes were after all, VERY large.
Nor do I see what on SierraOscar's list really shows any sign of learning from their mistakes or seeking to put that learning to use correcting the various issues found in the State's apparatus. Legislative output is all very well, but if anything distinguished the last couple of governments it was perhaps regulatory failure through executive complaisance, and indeed not infrequently executive inaction after legislation which rendered the legislation largely an exercise in substituting paper for action. I see no sign that Fianna Fáil even recognise their failures there, let alone show any signs of addressing them.Particularly, if they are willing to publicly ruffle some of feathers of their former friends and/or advance some new ideas - let's say "The State is too centralized and we couldn't see the wood from the trees as a result when the crisis hit. Therefore we need more, not less, local government so the State can concentrate on the important rather than the popular issues".
That makes their case a bit stronger than the usual "It should be our a£&es warming the Ministerial seats rather than theirs" argument that both FG & FF have tended to favour.
Funny, really, I haven't heard the opposition pick up on this government's various moves to centralise the State further and reinforce the dominance of the executive over the legislature.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,533 CMod ✭✭✭✭
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Nor do I see what on SierraOscar's list really shows any sign of learning from their mistakes or seeking to put that learning to use correcting the various issues found in the State's apparatus. Legislative output is all very well, but if anything distinguished the last couple of governments it was perhaps regulatory failure through executive complaisance, and indeed not infrequently executive inaction after legislation which rendered the legislation largely an exercise in substituting paper for action. I see no sign that Fianna Fáil even recognise their failures there, let alone show any signs of addressing them.
Hmm? I thought it was pretty clear that Fianna Fáil recognised that it was a lack of enforcement of regulation that played a major role in getting us into the mess that we are in now. A culture emerged within the highest ranks of management both within our own Department of Finance and within the banks that we could do no wrong and that we were seemingly an exception case study in regards economic performance. We foolishly thought that we had somehow managed to beat the cycle of boom and bust - people seemingly could not get into their heads that bubbles inevitably result in a bust. As you say, the regulation is already there per say - the challenge is making people accountable to the regulation. If you have any suggestions as to how we can do that then drop me a line, I would be happy to put it forward for debate as part of our policy.
We made the mistakes and we took the flack for it - trust me, the beating the party got in the election was a real wake up call for all. I cant see the party making the same mistakes again considering the price we paid, and the price the country has had to pay, for failing to adequately manage the state finances - or basically just having the foresight to see that bubbles don't end well if not deflated gradually.
EDIT: There is also a RedC poll due out this week, so it will be interesting to see if there is any actual trend in regards party support. I wont be getting too optimistic until I see a clear trend emerging.0 -
....we had a FF government that led to the disaster. That's a fact. In the battle between speculation and fact, speculation loses. This guff about manifestos means absolutely nothing because the others were not in government and did not have the means or opportunity. It's successive FF administrations that led to this debacle and while persons associated with those administrations are still involved actively with the party, its perfectly fair enough to point out the fact.
It is fair to point out the facts and I do not disagree with them. I simply point out that your speculation that we would not be where we are today were it not for FF is about as valid as my speculation that the other parties would have pursued similar policy positions.Alas, one needs to take both those statements together. Fianna Fáil may indeed be the best able to provide coherent opposition, but that only reflects the truly appalling verging-on-fantasy output of the rest of the opposition.
I'm pleased that you recognise that in the current situation FF may be the best able to provide coherent opposition . . I believe that it is as a result of this kind of recognition that FF are rising in the opinion polls.And political point-scoring for the sake of public support remains populism where it's devoid of any other meaning, which remains the case here. The current government is operating in a straitjacket created by Fianna Fáil, and so Fianna Fáil criticising the adequacy of their gymnastics remains grotesque.
cordially,
Scofflaw
But you could put forward the argument that FG/Lab will have to operate within a FF-created straitjacket for the entire term of this government (and maybe the next) .. there will come a time (for me it is already here) when the need for coherent opposition trumps the need to continue punishing FF.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »It is fair to point out the facts and I do not disagree with them. I simply point out that your speculation that we would not be where we are today were it not for FF is about as valid as my speculation that the other parties would have pursued similar policy positions..
No, I stated we are where we are because of FF - an indisputable, undeniable fact. Theres rather a difference.0 -
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Certainly they could legitimately advance the first part - but the second part I'm not so sure of, particularly given the extent to which the first part is, when presented, minimised as much as possible. The mistakes were after all, VERY large.
I'd largely agree - I don't think a minimisation and/or denial strategy is going to work when so many people are in negative equity.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote:But you could put forward the argument that FG/Lab will have to operate within a FF-created straitjacket for the entire term of this government (and maybe the next) .. there will come a time (for me it is already here) when the need for coherent opposition trumps the need to continue punishing FF.
The two are not in fact incompatible. But, as I've said, the particular issue in question is one where the balance, in my opinion, lies very heavily against Fianna Fáil. Since you've supported Fianna Fáil all along, your view of the balance is going to be quite different, and it does seem from the poll that a good chunk of what seem likely to be previously-defected Fianna Fáil supporters also feel that 18 months is adequate time to leave behind issues like IMF interventions, ongoing troika management of the country, a huge deficit, an enormous national debt, the collapse of the banking sector, and the massive destruction of wealth and jobs through the bursting of one of the world's sharpest government-encouraged property bubbles.
I daresay that in another 18 months they'll have managed to convince themselves that these things are, if not quite Fine Gael's fault originally as such, are nevertheless its fault right now because they haven't been magicked away. I daresay some are at that river already, and I'm sure Fianna Fáil will gladly take their obols and pole the ferry as fast as they can.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
No, I stated we are where we are because of FF - an indisputable, undeniable fact. Theres rather a difference.
Yes, there is rather a difference . . what you say above is a statement of fact . . what you actually said earlier was speculative ..
"....they wouldn't be in the position of having to get a deal if it wasn't for FF ..."
.. which, btw I am not particularly concerned with . . you are free to speculate, just dont criticise me when I do the same.The two are not in fact incompatible. But, as I've said, the particular issue in question is one where the balance, in my opinion, lies very heavily against Fianna Fáil. Since you've supported Fianna Fáil all along, your view of the balance is going to be quite different, and it does seem from the poll that a good chunk of what seem likely to be previously-defected Fianna Fáil supporters also feel that 18 months is adequate time to leave behind issues like IMF interventions, ongoing troika management of the country, a huge deficit, an enormous national debt, the collapse of the banking sector, and the massive destruction of wealth and jobs through the bursting of one of the world's sharpest government-encouraged property bubbles.
I daresay that in another 18 months they'll have managed to convince themselves that these things are, if not quite Fine Gael's fault originally as such, are nevertheless its fault right now because they haven't been magicked away. I daresay some are at that river already, and I'm sure Fianna Fáil will gladly take their obols and pole the ferry as fast as they can.
cordially,
Scofflaw
They are incompatible in the current environment where we need strong, coherent, effective opposition and when (as you have recognised) there is no credible alternative...
I have not heard anyone from Fianna Fail looking to move away from a position of accepting responsibility for the crash and I think history will always remember Fianna Fail's role in the events of 2010/2011. I have no problem with that. Coming to terms with that responsibility is part of the renewal process that will allow Fianna Fail to continue in Irish politics.
But none of that takes from the need for the lead opposition party to hold the government accountable for the decisions it is making today. Do you really think that FG/LAB should get a free pass just because FF caused the mess ?0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »They are incompatible in the current environment where we need strong, coherent, effective opposition and when (as you have recognised) there is no credible alternative...
Not really. I'm entirely willing to see FF providing "coherent opposition" from the position they're currently in, on about 20 seats.hallelujajordan wrote: »I have not heard anyone from Fianna Fail looking to move away from a position of accepting responsibility for the crash and I think history will always remember Fianna Fail's role in the events of 2010/2011. I have no problem with that. Coming to terms with that responsibility is part of the renewal process that will allow Fianna Fail to continue in Irish politics.
Sure, by minimising it and seeking to "look forward", exactly as you're going here. Blandly stating "we accept our responsibility...but, looking forward" doesn't do it for me.hallelujajordan wrote: »But none of that takes from the need for the lead opposition party to hold the government accountable for the decisions it is making today. Do you really think that FG/LAB should get a free pass just because FF caused the mess ?
Perhaps I should clarify my earlier comments - I don't regard Fianna Fáil as providing worthwhile opposition any more than I consider most of the rest of the current opposition to be providing it. "Coherent" in this case only means that Fianna Fáil hasn't (yet) fallen into the fantasynomics hole that the majority of the opposition lives in.
I do not consider Fianna Fáil's criticisms of the government to be worth listening to, because those criticisms are simply grabs for party advantage, however they're tarted up. I don't for a moment think Fianna Fáil are providing principled opposition, and so the only advantage they enjoy over the rest of the opposition is that they're not obviously living in la-la land.
I will point out that I viewed Fine Gael and Labour in much the same light in their time in opposition.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
I'm not sure how any party can provide true, effective opposition long term form a position where they can not provide any alternative. It is clear that the only threat to the governments position right now is the threat that they will eat each other ..Not really. I'm entirely willing to see FF providing "coherent opposition" from the position they're currently in, on about 20 seats.
I'd love you to point me to where I have sought to minimise FF's responsibility ?? and what is wrong with looking forward . . ? would you like us to recognise our previous failings and apologise to the nation once a week, every week ? For how long ? ? At what point do we move on ?Scofflaw wrote:Sure, by minimising it and seeking to "look forward", exactly as you're going here. Blandly stating "we accept our responsibility...but, looking forward" doesn't do it for me.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »Yes, there is rather a difference . . what you say above is a statement of fact . . what you actually said earlier was speculative ..
"....they wouldn't be in the position of having to get a deal if it wasn't for FF ..."
..
Entirely true, as far as we know.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »I'm not sure how any party can provide true, effective opposition long term form a position where they can not provide any alternative. It is clear that the only threat to the governments position right now is the threat that they will eat each other ..
Is that all you perceive the job of opposition to be? To be the "government in waiting"?hallelujajordan wrote: »I'd love you to point me to where I have sought to minimise FF's responsibility ?? and what is wrong with looking forward . . ? would you like us to recognise our previous failings and apologise to the nation once a week, every week ? For how long ? ? At what point do we move on ?
Given the failures of the 1997-2011 Fianna Fáil led governments, I'm afraid the answer is that ideally, you don't. I know that Fianna Fáil will be back at the 2016 elections, and I know that most of the people who will be involved have been involved in Fianna Fáil for some time already. The party that stands in the 2014 local elections and the 2016 general election will be substantially the same party that stood in 2011. And there is no depth of humiliation that is deep enough for that party. That Fianna Fáil did not disband says that they did not, and never will, take on board the full extent to which they blew the very hard work of the Eighties and Nineties in setting this country on the road out of poverty and on to prosperity.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Of course not, and the alternative legislative work that Fianna Fail have been doing in opposition (which, incidentally has very little to do with garnering public support) has already been pointed out to you in this thread. I am simply pointing out that to be truly effective at holding the government to account, the opposition needs to at least be numerically strong. With such a huge majority the government can pretty much ignore the rest of DE . .Is that all you perceive the job of opposition to be? To be the "government in waiting"?Scofflaw wrote:
Given the failures of the 1997-2011 Fianna Fáil led governments, I'm afraid the answer is that ideally, you don't. I know that Fianna Fáil will be back at the 2016 elections, and I know that most of the people who will be involved have been involved in Fianna Fáil for some time already. The party that stands in the 2014 local elections and the 2016 general election will be substantially the same party that stood in 2011. And there is no depth of humiliation that is deep enough for that party. That Fianna Fáil did not disband says that they did not, and never will, take on board the full extent to which they blew the very hard work of the Eighties and Nineties in setting this country on the road out of poverty and on to prosperity.
cordially,
Scofflaw
. . or it says that they are committed to playing a role in Irish politics and in supporting recovery within Irish society. .
Right now, there are only a small number of Fianna Fail members who are rewarded monetarily for their role in Irish politics. The rest of us are involved for no other reason that we believe we can make a difference. . .0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »
Right now, there are only a small number of Fianna Fail members who are rewarded monetarily for their role in Irish politics. .
This is correct , the brown envelopes have dried up alright.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »Right now, there are only a small number of Fianna Fail members who are rewarded monetarily for their role in Irish politics. The rest of us are involved for no other reason that we believe we can make a difference. . .
Yeah, I believe that's what most people are afraid of.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »It's entirely bloody speculative. .. you have no idea what would have happened had FG won the elections in 2002 / 2007 . . I can guess based on their manifesto's but then you will accuse me of speculating . . .
Fact always wins over speculation. Fact was FF were in power and fact they ruined our country. Corruption and cronyism has always been associated with FF, Haughey, Ahern and many others. Its one of the common characteristics that may never be purged from the FF mantra....
Fact is FF should have little to say over bailouts, bank crisis or anything regarding financial matters. Its absolutely idiotic to hear FF going off in the Dail about such matters that they did not have a clue about when in power and know even less now in opposition. The less said the better.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »Of course not, and the alternative legislative work that Fianna Fail have been doing in opposition (which, incidentally has very little to do with garnering public support) has already been pointed out to you in this thread. I am simply pointing out that to be truly effective at holding the government to account, the opposition needs to at least be numerically strong. With such a huge majority the government can pretty much ignore the rest of DE . .
The government can ignore DE with a tiny majority, as long as it's a solid one. DE is a rubber-stamp body at this stage, and what the opposition does in it is barely meaningful in terms of holding the government to account except insofar as it gets into the papers - and for that, you don't really need more seats, except in the press office and at fund-raisers.hallelujajordan wrote: ». . or it says that they are committed to playing a role in Irish politics and in supporting recovery within Irish society. .
Right now, there are only a small number of Fianna Fail members who are rewarded monetarily for their role in Irish politics. The rest of us are involved for no other reason that we believe we can make a difference. . .
You have already made an enormous difference. The point is not whether you are doing it unpaid, but that you are doing it through a party whose internal culture contributed to the recent differences the party made to all of us. To do it that way clearly says that you are not ashamed of Fianna Fáil, and therefore not ashamed of what they did. And that's wrong, because you should be.
Everything you've said amounts to nothing more than the standard corporate litany that "mistakes were made", and are "regrettable", and "we have taken them on board" and are "moving on and looking forward". And I'm afraid that everyone has heard that kind of recital before, and knows what it means - and one thing it doesn't mean is that the depth of your repentance outweighs the depth of your party loyalty. The party comes first, this time as every time - that makes it possible for you to forgive yourselves, and move on. I doubt I am alone in finding that deeply odious.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,533 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 8146
Is that all you perceive the job of opposition to be? To be the "government in waiting"?
I would broadly classify the job of the opposition as to hold the government to account, and put forward alternative policy for consideration.Fact is FF should have little to say over bailouts, bank crisis or anything regarding financial matters. Its absolutely idiotic to hear FF going off in the Dail about such matters that they did not have a clue about when in power and know even less now in opposition. The less said the better.
Over 400,000 people gave FF their first preference in the last election. Are you saying that FF should not seek to represent these people?0 -
You have already made an enormous difference. The point is not whether you are doing it unpaid, but that you are doing it through a party whose internal culture contributed to the recent differences the party made to all of us. To do it that way clearly says that you are not ashamed of Fianna Fáil, and therefore not ashamed of what they did. And that's wrong, because you should be.
Everything you've said amounts to nothing more than the standard corporate litany that "mistakes were made", and are "regrettable", and "we have taken them on board" and are "moving on and looking forward". And I'm afraid that everyone has heard that kind of recital before, and knows what it means - and one thing it doesn't mean is that the depth of your repentance outweighs the depth of your party loyalty. The party comes first, this time as every time - that makes it possible for you to forgive yourselves, and move on. I doubt I am alone in finding that deeply odious.
cordially,
Scofflaw
I honestly find your comments deeply offensive. Yes, I do feel shame that Fianna Fail governed in a way that led us down this irrecoverable path. As I have said on here many times, I believe that we as a people got a taste for wealth, got greedy and fuelled our own bubble. I don't believe that Fianna Fail did that on their own but i do believe they led and facilitated it and when the country needed them to show leadership, they were found lacking . . for that I am ashamed. . .
But I am not ashamed to be a member of Fianna Fail now; I believe that Fianna Fail can recover and learn from the events of 2010/2011 and be a better party as a result . . I have no 'blind' loyalty to FF. I don't think our politics are vastly different from FG and as I've also said in the past I have been a member of other political parties... but right now, FF is a place where I feel my voice can be heard and I can help to build from the ground up.
To offensively characterise me as some odious blind party loyalist is just petty and honestly, I'd expect a little better from a Category Moderator.0 -
Lhallelujajordan wrote: »
To offensively characterise me as some odious blind party loyalist is just petty and honestly, I'd expect a little better from a Category Moderator.
Come off it. You are the same hallelujajordan that called Bertie a great leader.
It is blind party supporters like you that enabled FF to get us into this mess.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I honestly find your comments deeply offensive. Yes, I do feel shame that Fianna Fail governed in a way that led us down this irrecoverable path. As I have said on here many times, I believe that we as a people got a taste for wealth, got greedy and fuelled our own bubble. I don't believe that Fianna Fail did that on their own but i do believe they led and facilitated it and when the country needed them to show leadership, they were found lacking . . for that I am ashamed. . .
But I am not ashamed to be a member of Fianna Fail now; I believe that Fianna Fail can recover and learn from the events of 2010/2011 and be a better party as a result . . I have no 'blind' loyalty to FF. I don't think our politics are vastly different from FG and as I've also said in the past I have been a member of other political parties... but right now, FF is a place where I feel my voice can be heard and I can help to build from the ground up.
To offensively characterise me as some odious blind party loyalist is just petty and honestly, I'd expect a little better from a Category Moderator.
And you would be right to, since I intended no personal offence - I did think it was obvious I was referring to the party rather than you personally, but I accept that it was perhaps obvious to me rather than you!
Anyway, no personal offence was intended, and I certainly didn't intend to impute any personal odiousness to you. I don't doubt that for you, as for many other faithful party supporters, your motives are quite genuine - my cynicism takes an entirely different angle.
Having said that, my earlier comments stand unretracted, and I would recommend a read of this paper - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsp.846/abstract - as worth thinking about in that context.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Sierra Oscar wrote: »I would broadly classify the job of the opposition as to hold the government to account, and put forward alternative policy for consideration.
The latter requires no particular number of seats, and the former is actually wrong, although separating the two is correct.
It is not the job of the opposition to hold the government to account. It is the job of the Oireachtas, and particularly the Dáil, to hold the government to account, and to do so by rejecting or amending their legislative proposals and if necessary by unseating them.
That is meaningfully holding them to account. The watered down version you propose as the job of the opposition consists merely of criticising everything they do for party advantage in the hopes of forming the next government, and dominating an equally ineffectual legislature.Sierra Oscar wrote: »Over 400,000 people gave FF their first preference in the last election. Are you saying that FF should not seek to represent these people?
Had you disbanded prior to the election, they could not have voted for you, and would have voted for other people - perhaps even the same people, but outside the party - who would then have that mandate. As such, the mandate in itself is not justification for the existence of the party, while its failure to disband indicates its preference for continued existence over both principle and genuine repentance.
As I said, the party that will contest the 2014 and 2016 elections will consist of substantially the same people, and while the party will certainly claim "renewal", it would do so were it entirely unchanged - and that it consists of people who could not bring themselves to abandon the party even in the face of what the party did to the country hardly suggests any genuine comprehension of how deep the party's failure is. Loyalty and historical momentum are organisational virtues only for the organisation itself, and they are what is in play here.
And for you personally, as for hallelujahjordan, I respect the genuineness of your wish to make a difference to your country - I consider the "it's all brown envelopes" line extremely ignorant, and the public representatives I have known have been genuinely motivated by such desires - but then most priests' motivation are equally sincere, yet the Church, protecting itself, has engaged in an endless round of cover-ups to protect the organisation. Your wish to make a difference is of value to the country - but your loyalty to a particular organisation is not. The two are distinct, and both of you should distinguish them, at all times, whatever the organisation, as should we all. It seems to me that you are not doing so.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,533 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 8146
What do you classify the job of the opposition as being, Scofflaw?
Also, I do believe that FF has been quite constructive in opposition thus far and has not went down the road of opportunistic opposition as you seem to suggest the party has. Take the ESM referendum for example. FF could have quite easily came out and trotted the populist mantra, whilst at the same time getting far far more airtime, afterall by choosing to campaign for a yes vote they severely limited the media airtime they were entitled to. However the party backed the referendum as it was seen to be the right thing to do for the country.
Had you disbanded prior to the election, they could not have voted for you, and would have voted for other people - perhaps even the same people, but outside the party - who would then have that mandate.
Yeah well, not entirely sure what you are even trying to say from there onwards. However this is the fact of the matter - FF did not disband, the party contested the election and it received a mandate from over 400,000 people. It has an obligation to represent those people.0 -
Sierra Oscar wrote: »What do you classify the job of the opposition as being, Scofflaw?
It's a good question, and answering it is hard, because the job of the opposition is very similar to what they currently do - but in looks only.
If we take the job of the legislature as being to, as I said, amend and reject government bills, unseat the government if required, and propose and support their own alternatives to government bills, thereby holding the government to account, it's very easy to say that that's what the opposition does.
However, the opposition does it, unfortunately, in a consequence-free vacuum. In our current system, the opposition cannot get their amendments through, nor their own alternatives passed, nor unseat the government, unless the government lose their majority, because in Ireland, the legislature does not vote against the party whip.
So there's a moral hazard problem, where the opposition do the only job they really can do, and the job they as legislators should be doing, but because they face no practical consequences from any of their suggestions, what should be a process of legislative deliberation becomes instead a media opportunity.
It is the job of all legislators to hold the executive to account. There is no democratically meaningful role for a party-based 'opposition' as such, only the opportunity to play-act in the place of the whole legislature.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Sierra Oscar wrote: »I would broadly classify the job of the opposition as to hold the government to account, and put forward alternative policy for consideration.
Over 400,000 people gave FF their first preference in the last election. Are you saying that FF should not seek to represent these people?
With respect, representing people yes, but only if you have the facts and know what you are saying is valid. Getting up to speak and oppose for the sake of it, just because you are the opposition party is not for serving any useful purpose, other than trying to score cheap political points for the party.0 -
Sierra Oscar wrote: »Also, I do believe that FF has been quite constructive in opposition thus far and has not went down the road of opportunistic opposition as you seem to suggest the party has. Take the ESM referendum for example. FF could have quite easily came out and trotted the populist mantra, whilst at the same time getting far far more airtime, afterall by choosing to campaign for a yes vote they severely limited the media airtime they were entitled to. However the party backed the referendum as it was seen to be the right thing to do for the country.
To be honest, I don't know whether that would have played all that well with their support base, or distinguished them from the rest of the opposition.Sierra Oscar wrote: »Yeah well, not entirely sure what you are even trying to say from there onwards. However this is the fact of the matter - FF did not disband, the party contested the election and it received a mandate from over 400,000 people. It has an obligation to represent those people.
I don't deny that. I'm just pointing out that nobody in Fianna Fáil had to stand for Fianna Fáil in order to represent people, and the fact that they couldn't step away from Fianna Fáil only a couple of months after leading the country into an IMF intervention suggests their continued loyalty to Fianna Fáil trumps any sense that the party might have done something wrong. To be honest, I doubt many of them even thought about it for any length of time.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
To be honest, I don't know whether that would have played all that well with their support base, or distinguished them from the rest of the opposition.
I don't deny that. I'm just pointing out that nobody in Fianna Fáil had to stand for Fianna Fáil in order to represent people, and the fact that they couldn't step away from Fianna Fáil only a couple of months after leading the country into an IMF intervention suggests their continued loyalty to Fianna Fáil trumps any sense that the party might have done something wrong. To be honest, I doubt many of them even thought about it for any length of time.
cordially,
Scofflaw
Indeed, in reality why did these FF supporters not walk away from a party that oversaw the biggest financial disaster in our history and the continuing fallout? What can be so good about such a party that it continued to get support, even and despite, the corruption scandals, added to the economic crisis. It defies logic, and the only I answer, I will suggest is blind loyalty or absolute stupidity. The party before the country no matter what.0 -
To be honest, I don't know whether that would have played all that well with their support base, or distinguished them from the rest of the opposition.
The rest of the opposition would naturally be anti-European Treaties so it does offer some form of distinction, go the O'Cuiv way or go the way they always have gone. They could have gone the O'Cuiv way, attracted Eurosceptic elements of FG and Labour and still presented themselves as different from SF/ULA types. The Charlie Haughey approach, oppose referenda that personally he would have favoured.
But really opposition is pointless, as it was when FG/Labour and before that the Greens provided it.
FF face an extra credibility problem as they were the party of Government that led us to bankruptcy. This isn't a normal period of opposition from Government for them, a little needed break from power, they are like the Tories in 97 in England, but worse.
In short, they are unelectable and only gather votes because a considerabe section see SF as unelectable!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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hallelujajordan wrote: »I don't think our politics are vastly different from FG .
So why not advocate a coalition between these two parties?0 -
Note to the FF soldiers of destiny..... you may want to take that bottle of champagne back out of the ice bucket and put it back on the shelf.
Looks like FF is up one point in the latest RedC poll, and not up 4 after all .
FG 34 (+2)
Lab 13 (-1)
FF 19 (+1)
SF 17 (-1)
Inds 17 (-1)0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,533 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 8146
Note to the FF soldiers of destiny..... you may want to take that bottle of champagne back out of the ice bucket and put it back on the shelf.
Looks like FF is up one point in the latest RedC poll, and not up 4 after all .
FG 34 (+2)
Lab 13 (-1)
FF 19 (+1)
SF 17 (-1)
Inds 17 (-1)
Encouraging to see the upward trend nonetheless. I would rather take a +1% / +2% each month then a +4% once in a blue moon! Still early days though, and it will be interesting to see how the budget plays out. Also, encouraging that there is now a clear trend whereby FF remain the second largest party in terms of popular support.0 -
Sierra Oscar wrote: »Encouraging to see the upward trend nonetheless. I would rather take a +1% / +2% each month then a +4% once in a blue moon! Still early days though, and it will be interesting to see how the budget plays out. Also, encouraging that there is now a clear trend whereby FF remain the second largest party in terms of popular support.
I find it very sad that a party that savagely bankrupted our country and gave away our sovereignty gets any votes.0 -
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