Japanese Fighting Fish...where to buy?

Skinfull

A friend of mine has moved here from the states and is bemoaning the fact that she had to leave her fish behind. She is threatening to buy some but hasn't gotten round to it yet. Her birthday is coming up and I thought I'd kit her out.

Where to go? Also...what to ask?

kylith

I recommend Seahorse Aquariums at the Red Cow.

Just be aware that aquariums take a few weeks to be ready for fish, so I'd recommend, if you're going to be buying her some kit, getting an aquarium of about 50L and a voucher for fish. That way she won't have to worry about the fish dying while the tank cycles.

él statutorio

Assuming you mean a siamese fighting fish aka a Betta. They're very popular in the states mainly because they require little to no maintenance.

Any half decent petshop will stock them.

If it is a Betta you don't need to be as picky with water conditions as you would with other fish. In the wild Bettas live in puddles and rice paddys, they are one of the few fish who can life in pretty nasty water conditions as they don't have to breathe through the water. They're known as labyrinth fish and they can breathe oxygen directly from the air.

I'm not a big fan of bowls for fish but a betta is probably one of the only fish that will live quite happily in a bowl (unlike goldfish).

a 50L tank for a Betta is probably overkill imho.

kylith

él statutorio wrote: »

Assuming you mean a siamese fighting fish aka a Betta. They're very popular in the states mainly because they require little to no maintenance.

Any half decent petshop will stock them.

If it is a Betta you don't need to be as picky with water conditions as you would with other fish. In the wild Bettas live in puddles and rice paddys, they are one of the few fish who can life in pretty nasty water conditions as they don't have to breathe through the water. They're known as labyrinth fish and they can breathe oxygen directly from the air.

I'm not a big fan of bowls for fish but a betta is probably one of the only fish that will live quite happily in a bowl (unlike goldfish).

a 50L tank for a Betta is probably overkill imho.

That's absolute rubbish. Rice paddies may be shallow, but they're massive in area. The rumour that they live in puddles comes from the dry season when they're forced to live in puddles because all the water has dried up, and many die. True, they can take in surface air, but that's no excuse for putting them in a tiny bowl. They are hardy, but they require just as much care and maintenance as any other fish.

Putting them in anything under about 50L is asking for trouble when it comes to water quality, filtration, and maintaining the temperature. A larger tank will also mean that the OP's friend could add some shrimp or a small school of peaceful fish to give some extra movement to the tank. Putting any fish in something the size of a goldfish bowl would be like keeping a human in an 8'x8' room; they could survive, but they won't be happy.

él statutorio

kylith wrote: »

That's absolute rubbish. Rice paddies may be shallow, but they're massive in area. The rumour that they live in puddles comes from the dry season when they're forced to live in puddles because all the water has dried up, and many die. True, they can take in surface air, but that's no excuse for putting them in a tiny bowl. They are hardy, but they require just as much care and maintenance as any other fish.

Putting them in anything under about 50L is asking for trouble when it comes to water quality, filtration, and maintaining the temperature. A larger tank will also mean that the OP's friend could add some shrimp or a small school of peaceful fish to give some extra movement to the tank. Putting any fish in something the size of a goldfish bowl would be like keeping a human in an 8'x8' room; they could survive, but they won't be happy.

Rice paddies are massive in area but wouldn't be exactly drinking water either.

They don't require the same lever of maintenance as other fish. That's not to say that you should leave them in filthy conditions but they are far more tolerant of poor water quality. This is why they're a very good fish for beginners.

Betta's don't tend to fare all that well in community tanks (in my experience) as they ten to get nipped a lot. (although shrimp should be fine).

I did mention that I wasn't a fan of bowls but if someone is going to go down the bowl route anyway a betta is probably best suited to it rather than something like a goldfish.

kylith

él statutorio wrote: »

Rice paddies are massive in area but wouldn't be exactly drinking water either.

They don't require the same lever of maintenance as other fish. That's not to say that you should leave them in filthy conditions but they are far more tolerant of poor water quality. This is why they're a very good fish for beginners.

Betta's don't tend to fare all that well in community tanks (in my experience) as they ten to get nipped a lot. (although shrimp should be fine).

I did mention that I wasn't a fan of bowls but if someone is going to go down the bowl route anyway a betta is probably best suited to it rather than something like a goldfish.

I wouldn't be drinking the water in the Amazon either, but no-one would suggest that tetras don't need good water quality.

They may be more suited than a goldfish to a bowl, but they are still not suited. I have no idea how you could even heat a bowl like that so the fish would either freeze or cook in a short period of time. As large a tank as possible, with good heating and filtration, is the best thing to keep your fish healthy

él statutorio

kylith wrote: »

I wouldn't be drinking the water in the Amazon either, but no-one would suggest that tetras don't need good water quality.

They may be more suited than a goldfish to a bowl, but they are still not suited. I have no idea how you could even heat a bowl like that so the fish would either freeze or cook in a short period of time. As large a tank as possible, with good heating and filtration, is the best thing to keep your fish healthy

I'm not suggesting that they don't need good water quality, I'm saying that they're far more tolerant of bad water quality then most other fish as.

As regards heating, you don't need to heat it. I've had tropical tanks previously that were unheated, room temperature in most homes can be fine for certain fish. I once had a tank with Gourami, Tiger Barbs, Danios and Clown loaches that was unheated.

kylith

Really? I wouldn't risk keeping tropical fish in an unheated tank in a country where, even in summer, the room temperature wouldn't equal the water temperature that they're used to. The temp would probably be ten degrees less than optimum, which is a huge difference.

PucaMama

i got mine in a pet shop on parnell street. he lives in a 17litre heated and filtered tank and hes very happy. you dont need a huge tank for them, even a bowl is fine since you can now get filters made for fish bowls, and mini heaters.

él statutorio

kylith wrote: »

Really? I wouldn't risk keeping tropical fish in an unheated tank in a country where, even in summer, the room temperature wouldn't equal the water temperature that they're used to. The temp would probably be ten degrees less than optimum, which is a huge difference.

It was grand as it happens, the house was well insulated, which, in retrospect, probably helped keep the temperature pretty stable. I did my research on the fish that went into it though, they were all pretty tolerant of temperature changes. Stuff like danios are are great, while they might be tropical they come from fast flowing streams which will always be that bit colder. I had it running for about 2 years, the barbs and danios both spawned in there too so something must've been right!

It's a little project that I'd like to do again now that i think about it. It was a lot of fun at the time doing the research and getting it right but it ended prematurely (due to a five year old deciding to "feed" aftershave to the tank :mad:).

kylith

Danios are a hardy little fish alright. I was considering them for my goldy tank, before I rehomed the enormous baxtard.

I'd love to do a freshwater native species tank, but I'm limited on room and OH already gives out that my fish are 'grey and boring' (Dwarf gourami and rummynose tetras), so a tank of mud coloured fish probably wouldn't be his cup of tea at all.

él statutorio

kylith wrote: »

Danios are a hardy little fish alright. I was considering them for my goldy tank, before I rehomed the enormous baxtard.

I'd love to do a freshwater native species tank, but I'm limited on room and OH already gives out that my fish are 'grey and boring' (Dwarf gourami and rummynose tetras), so a tank of mud coloured fish probably wouldn't be his cup of tea at all.

A half dozen or so tiger barbs would brighten it up. they're cheap(ish) too. between the black and gold ones, the green morph and there's albino's too that'd add colour fairly lively! Always tearing around once there's about 6 or more of them too!

kylith

él statutorio wrote: »

A half dozen or so tiger barbs would brighten it up. they're cheap(ish) too. between the black and gold ones, the green morph and there's albino's too that'd add colour fairly lively! Always tearing around once there's about 6 or more of them too!

Nah, I'm rehoming the Gourami. Going to get 6 Bosemani rainbowfish, and bump up the tetras to 10, maybe look at getting some cories, that's in my 120L. Want to get a betta for my 10g, or maybe a couple of pea puffers.

Anyway, we're now miles off topic. OP, get the best set-up you can afford, but don't include fish so that she can cycle it first

Sleepy

Or pick up the Aqua-Organic pack for that tank size. Lets you add fish on the first day. Haven't tried it myself but Seahorse are selling it and the Leinster Fishkeeping Society use it to get their display tanks up and running for their shows...

buzz

:pac:has to butt in:pac:

Im sorry but who ever thinks that a fish can live in a unheated, unfiltered "bowl" is actually just screaming out animal injustic.

Sorry if that is a bit extreme but I recently lost the plot at a pet shop owner who had betta for sale in a f**king cup, like a zumo drink for sale on a counter.

I have had Betta for over 15 years, love them and have bred some fantastic colours which is not easy.

Go putting them in a bowl or small tank out of specific requirements, and good luck with that.

Even though the species is labyrinth, was it wild caught? - I think not.

labyrinth fish can take a breath from the surface air and not rely on the oxygen within the water to breath and exhale through gils.

But take a western, plonk in the desert and expect him to find the stream??:mad:

fred funk }{

Some amount of rubbish talk in this thread. Buzz and Kylith are spot on.

Silverfish

Yeah, to be fair rice fields where bettas originate are huge, several miles of water. In the 'dry' season, which gave rise to the 'puddle' myth, it is a puddle - but only compared to a flooded rice field. In the dry season, bettas can survive in drainage ditches:



or 'puddles' of several meters and about a foot in depth. Each being a LOT more than 20 litres.

but of course, many of them die during the dry season. A betta will stake out a territory of several meters, a far cry from a bowl or small tank.

They are anabantoids, but don't solely get air from the surface, they need to get oxygen from the water AND the surface, so keeping them in unfiltered or manky water is not advisable. They do prefer darker water, usually achieved by adding Catappa leaves, not by letting the water get filthy.

Mr Whirly

They are mass produced in jars by seasoned keepers. This is a fact.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IUbBYhOZD8

Silverfish

Mr Whirly wrote: »

They are mass produced in jars by seasoned keepers. This is a fact.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IUbBYhOZD8

There were males being selected for breeding by viewing them in jars, the fish themselves were kept in large concrete tanks. You can't 'mass produce' fish in a jar, they won't breed in one.

My post was detailing the wild betta's natural habitat, not how the selectively bred ones are kept, but this is like saying puppy mills are a dog's natural habitat - they're not.

Mr Whirly

Fair enough but the concrete vats are unfiltered.

Fish breeding and puppy breeding have zero similarities.

Bettas are kept the world over by top breeders in unfiltered set ups, and in jars by the vast majority.

Silverfish

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Fair enough but the concrete vats are unfiltered.

Fish breeding and puppy breeding have zero similarities.

Bettas are kept the world over by top breeders in unfiltered set ups.

But they don't detail what water changes they undertake, ranchu breeders in Japan breed show ranchu in large basins, but change 100% of the water daily, sometimes twice daily. Once the fish is at maximum size, it's moved to a filtered tank or large pond. However people see the ranchu in a basin and think 'Ranchu can be kept in basins and don't need filters!'

No fish can thrive in an unfiltered tank. Fishkeeping is about keeping healthy fish to the best of your ability, providing the best environment for the fish, not about how small a tank you can squeeze it into and how little maintenance you can get away with.

Mr Whirly

Silverfish wrote: »

But they don't detail what water changes they undertake, ranchu breeders in Japan breed show ranchu in large basins, but change 100% of the water daily, sometimes twice daily. Once the fish is at maximum size, it's moved to a filtered tank or large pond. However people see the ranchu in a basin and think 'Ranchu can be kept in basins and don't need filters!'

No fish can thrive in an unfiltered tank. Fishkeeping is about keeping healthy fish to the best of your ability, providing the best environment for the fish, not about how small a tank you can squeeze it into and how little maintenance you can get away with.

I agree 100% about keeping fish healthy. I believe you can maintain labyrinth fish in a large body of water without a filter very successfully. In fact I think the vast majority of betta splendens meet an untimely end due to keepers putting them with other fish in agitated water. I would make the argument that they are better off in slow to still but well maintained water. I would recommend them for a fish bowl that has regular partial water changes.

Mr Whirly

Sleepy wrote: »

Or pick up the Aqua-Organic pack for that tank size. Lets you add fish on the first day. Haven't tried it myself but Seahorse are selling it and the Leinster Fishkeeping Society use it to get their display tanks up and running for their shows...

The Organic Aqua franchise in Ireland is owned by Seahorse Aquariums (AFAIK) and is in no way an advisable way to keep fish. You can't test water parameters correctly using this product. I don't think the LFKS would endorse this product if you asked them.

Skinfull

Wow...I'm surprised time and time again by the wealth of knowledge on this board.
Thanks so much for the info guys, I think I'll go the route of buying the tank and voucher. That way she can pick out her own one... Now before I drop my jaw in the pet shop... What cost am I looking at here?

kylith

I won't lie to you; new aquariums are expensive.
http://www.seahorseaquariums.com/store/product/5417/Aqua-One-AquaNano-40/

I usually keep an eye on adverts.ie for second hand set ups.
http://www.adverts.ie/pet-accessories/juwel-60litre-aquarium-with-stand/2207086

buzz

Silverfish wrote: »

No fish can thrive in an unfiltered tank. Fishkeeping is about keeping healthy fish to the best of your ability, providing the best environment for the fish, not about how small a tank you can squeeze it into and how little maintenance you can get away with.

Exactly. Fish need to be stress free and comfortable in enviroment before they will breed. If you like the look of the betta and want little to no maintence, buy a phone of one. The petshop guy that I had a go at told me there would be no ammonia issues even with no water changes, "a beatuiful fish for beginners that takes care of itself" :mad:

Certainly if you are looking for a larger tank, www.adverts.ie is full of great value. Just keep an eye out, you will find someone looking to upgrade from a 60L or something similar and you could pick up the whole package for around €100. Mate of mine recently bought a 90L tank, with heater, filter, air pump and stone, gravel and stand for 90euro.

Keep looking mate, you will find it.:P

buzz

http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/q_jewel/sortby_price-asc/page-38

Good value here. Price dropped to 120euro. Comes with everything you need