Labour down to fourth

Tim Robbins

So only two years after Gilmore for Toaiseacht, we have Labour down to 4th in the polls. Behind FF, SF and FG.

The only party who didn't vote for the bank guarentee (so they say).

Anyway, here is the reasons why I think they are flunking. They made all these unrealistic guarentees that effectively nothing would be cut. They haven't been able to maintain these so the iconclastic populist vote is now going to SF and Independents.

To the more trained eye, the priorities seem to be with protecting the cosy public sector, croke park and 300 million of increments to the public sector in 2011. This means they'll never slip below 9% or so. But it also means they'll never grow.

Sleepy

They're a massive burden on their coalition partners tbh.

Without them, I think it's safe to say Fine Gael would have made more savings on the PS pay-bill and the Welfare bill. As long as they need them they'll be hamstrung by them.

As loathe as I am to admit they could be useful, Fianna Fail would make a far better junior coalition partner for FG at the moment. In the absence of a new more socially liberal right of centre party (which would take years to get to a point of being a contender for government, and may never given the "we want everything and to pay for nothing" mentality of the Irish electorate), FG will continue to get my vote.

In the absence of an overall majority, Fianna Fail are the best choice of coallition partner if only the party faithful (on both sides) can be made to see it...

frankosw

Tim Robbins wrote: »

To the more trained eye, the priorities seem to be with protecting the cosy public sector, croke park and 300 million of increments to the public sector in 2011. This means they'll never slip below 9% or so. But it also means they'll never grow.

Have you ever used public services?

If you feel so strongly about the PS you should boycot them and do all your business privately.

That'll teacjh the overpaid cartel,wont it?

Dannyboy83

frankosw wrote: »

Have you ever used public services?

If you feel so strongly about the PS you should boycot them and do all your business privately.

That'll teach the overpaid cartel,wont it?

That doesn't make any sense.

If Ryanair get your money wheter you boycott them or not, they have no motivation to change work practises... correct?
In fact, they have an incentive not to serve you.

So boycotting them makes no difference; Refusing to pay your taxes/tax evasion would.

Drumpot

Sleepy wrote: »

In the absence of a new more socially liberal right of centre party (which would take years to get to a point of being a contender for government, and may never given the "we want everything and to pay for nothing" mentality of the Irish electorate), FG will continue to get my vote...

FG will continue to get your vote ? Irrespective of the candidate or how they choose not to deal with the zoning of land in boomtime or show any backbone at dealing with the public service ? Perhaps I have taken you out of context, but what exactly have FG done to try and change the "we want everything and pay for nothing" mentality ? Have they even tried ? To excuse them by saying "thats not their job" is not good enough, their job is to fix the country, but they continue the populist route, but hidden behind Labour (like FF used to do with all their coalition partners).

What you have done is given them a "get out of jail card" in relation to the public service. FF got off thanks to the PDs and it seems like we are happy to excuse inaction on the majority shareholder in government simply because it would of been an agenda of their partners.

FG didnt have to go into power with Labour, but chose to probobley so they wouldnt have to deal with the issue of public service.

Irish politics will never change if people do not hold to account the poor decisions made by those in government. Phil Hogan and James Reilly are not in Labour, yet you seem quite happy to commit to a party thats made them ministers.

Also, we have a Taoiseach who is useless at speaking to the people and including him we have 3 school teachers in major positions in the cabinet. Ive nothing against school teachers, but I dont believe that 3 in top positions represents a good proportion of the intelligence pool in Ireland. Jobs for the boys . .

Oh and theres the usual cronyism that FG promised would be history with FF and wheres the annual ministerial reviews we were promised ?

What alternative do I suggest? I hear you ask . . I say dont give FG your vote so lightly, dont vote for them, vote for the best local candidate. Its funny when people think voting for a candidate is a wasted vote if they dont get into power, this totally skewers the concept of democracy because you are then only you are voting for somebody who can win as opposed to somebody who can change things.

If everybody voted for individuals (as opposed to party) I think we would have a very differant kind of politician. As it stands, people need to also change how they vote (parish pump politics) but a start would be to hold politicians to account by not voting for them simply because they are in a specific party.

There are many things FG might not be able to do for one reason or another but there are plenty of things they could do, but choose not to. Standing up to the civil service is one of them and I dont buy the "its Labours fault" excuse. They dont stand up to the banks (continual delays in bankruptcy changes) either and chose (Hogan) to cancel an enquiry into the zoning of land during the boom. One has to question their motives and its hard to find a reasonable argument to defend their position on these issues.

Manach

From an economics perspective, given the way they've handle PS "reform" has not won them any pundits from independent voters and their carte-blanche leftist social nanny-state polices require a healthy economy to fund so as to impose on the people.

frankosw

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Refusing to pay your taxes/tax evasion would.

Ah..you mean like teh vast majority of people in teh building trade such as plumbers,carpenters and elecrtricians?

The sort of people who dont take cheques and probably have never filled out a tax return in thier lives?

Unfortunatley PS people dont have the luxury of working cash-in-hand.

Dannyboy83

frankosw wrote: »

Ah..you mean like teh vast majority of people in teh building trade such as plumbers,carpenters and elecrtricians?

The sort of people who dont take cheques and probably have never filled out a tax return in thier lives?

Unfortunatley PS people dont have the luxury of working cash-in-hand.

As I understand it, tax evasion is climbing across the entire non-paye economy, be it teachers giving grinds, or tradesmen or hairdressers or road tax etc. etc..

Unfortunatley PS people dont have the luxury of working cash-in-hand.

Sector is irrelevant - anybody with a skill can work cash-in-hand, e.g. an IT Administrator repairing computers, or a Revenue Officer giving taxation or accounting advice, or a Teacher giving grinds...

Black Smoke

frankosw wrote: »

Ah..you mean like teh vast majority of people in teh building trade such as plumbers,carpenters and elecrtricians?

The sort of people who dont take cheques and probably have never filled out a tax return in thier lives?

Unfortunatley PS people dont have the luxury of working cash-in-hand.

And to crown it all, the same brazen private sector lads, are giving grinds to junior and leaving cert students, and also forget to declare;)

frankosw

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Sector is irrelevant - anybody with a skill can work cash-in-hand, e.g. an IT Administrator repairing computers, or a Revenue Officer giving taxation or accounting advice, or a Teacher giving grinds...

So revenue officers do nixers now by giving out advice that they charge for?

I'd love to see a link supporting that particular assertation.

Drumpot

frankosw wrote: »

Ah..you mean like teh vast majority of people in teh building trade such as plumbers,carpenters and elecrtricians?

The sort of people who dont take cheques and probably have never filled out a tax return in thier lives?

Unfortunatley PS people dont have the luxury of working cash-in-hand.

So most private sector employees have ? Im on to you, I know where this is going . . .

Some extracts from:

"The public servants guide to entitlement"

Chapter 3 - Defend your innconce . .

• "We didnt cause this mess" - Refer to bankers as if they represent the entire private sector (forget that even most people in the banking sector had little power , just generalise). Do not allow discussion to start on civil/public servants who drove government strategys (and advised FF govt) during the boom.
• "We pay our taxes" - Say it in a suggestive manner as if most in the private sector dont, leave it ambiguous so you can enjoy re-reading your nonsensical viewpoint. This will help back up your views in Chapter 4.
• Sure everybody in private sector was creaming it - Do not allow average salary in sectors to skewer your narrow minded self vested very fair objective views. Everybody in the private sector made millions and blew it all on rich things that only rich people enjoy. They had it coming, why should you have to take a paycut.
• You signed a contract - Private sector employees love to moan about how they have lost their jobs or are worried about them , well thats not your fault. You deserve job security because you signed a contract and because the Irish government has a blank chequebook you shouldn have to be hit.

Chapter 4 - When to use "public service bashing" card . .

• Anytime anybody says anything remotely non positive about the public/civil service.

Chapter 5 - How to harness your sense of entitlement into a powerful defence. . . . .

Dannyboy83

frankosw wrote: »

So revenue officers do nixers now by giving out advice that they charge for?

I'd love to see a link supporting that particular assertation.

I was under the impression you had voluntarily forfeited that right with this statement?

frankosw wrote:

Ah..you mean like teh vast majority of people in teh building trade such as plumbers,carpenters and elecrtricians?

The sort of people who dont take cheques and probably have never filled out a tax return in thier lives?

Dannyboy83

Drumpot wrote: »

Some extracts from:

"The public servants guide to entitlement"

Genuinely laughed out loud at that:D

It's funny coz it's true!

Scofflaw

Hmm. Is this thread about Labour? No. Has it immediately become a PS bashing thread? Yes. Are we short on PS-bashing threads? No.

In this instance, I'm going to put the finger primarily on frankosw, for picking up on an observation in Tim Robbins' post and assuming Tim was attacking the PS, and then on Dannyboy83 for picking up frankosw's gauntlet.

moderately,
Scofflaw