What will it take to get you out on the street protesting?

MagicSean

Winston Payne wrote: »

Mass popular protest without the leverage of violence is finished as a means of change in western democracies.

Change by way of violence is the most undemocratic process there is.

Monty Burnz

Larbre34 wrote: »

What an idiotic comment, if the budget was balanced in one fell swoop it would close every school, hospital, clinic, advice centre, garda station, fire station, library, museum, park, leisure centre, tourist attraction, prison, army base, and end every community welfare, district nurse, home help and social worker service in the country

Some people seem to be brainwashed into thinking the 'public sector' is a sink hole of bureaucracy for every cent of taxes but don't equate that to the services and amenities they use and rely on every single day

Its not the public spending that bankrupted the country, it was the evaporation of a €20 billion tax stream built on a house of cards that caused massive inflation and profligacy, all traceable back to the reckless economic policies of Ahern and McCreevy. The bank debt is just an added millstone

We're back to year 1999 living standards not 1949 or even the stone age as some would have you believe.

As for a march to get me out? one against ignorance and red herrings

Right, so your idea is that we keep borrowing money from....whom?...while throwing the EU/IMF deal back in their faces?

MagicSean

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Why does everyone assume we're broke because of the banks? The banks could never have gone bust and we'd still be in the midst of incredible austerity because we need to borrow 20b+ per annum to keep the country running.


The banks? Back to the pub with ye.

Because a large amount of the country is completely ignorant of most things that don't concern them on a daily basis. They even had to introduce a module in Junior Cert to teach kids how the country works because their parents are too oblivious to do it. Most peoples understanding of Irish law is based on CSI and Law and Order ffs. Many people don't even understand the difference between liabilities and expenses when it comes to finances.

cosbloodymick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Right, so your idea is that we keep borrowing money from....whom?...while throwing the EU/IMF deal back in their faces?

Exactly. Unless the EU/IMF deal is not restructured then this country is going to have to renege on its debt as it is unsustainable.
The debt is the biggest issue we have and until that is dealt with this economy will continue to struggle.
You ask who will lend to us? Investors lend when they think they will get a return on thier money. They have not been prepared to lend to Ireland over the last few years because we cannot pay back what we already owe never mind anything extra.
If that massive overhanging debt was not there investors would lend to us because they would know that they would get there money back.
This is what happenned in Iceland. They had a referendum in which the peole voted not to pay back private banking debt so they reneged on it despite them being told the same drivel being spouted to us now that no one will ever lend to them again and being put under massive pressure by the British and Dutch governments who wanted their investors refunded.
Well guess who is borrowing on the international markets now and who isn't.

Monty Burnz

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Exactly. Unless the EU/IMF deal is not restructured then this country is going to have to renege on its debt as it is unsustainable.
The debt is the biggest issue we have and until that is dealt with this economy will continue to struggle.
You ask who will lend to us? Investors lend when they think they will get a return on thier money. They have not been prepared to lend to Ireland over the last few years because we cannot pay back what we already owe never mind anything extra.
If that massive overhanging debt was not there investors would lend to us because they would know that they would get there money back.
This is what happenned in Iceland. They had a referendum in which the peole voted not to pay back private banking debt so they reneged on it despite them being told the same drivel being spouted to us now that no one will ever lend to them again and being put under massive pressure by the British and Dutch governments who wanted their investors refunded.
Well guess who is borrowing on the international markets now and who isn't.

So you think that we would be able to borrow at economic rates despite defaulting on our debts and running a 12% (or whatever it is today) current account deficit? Fantasy land.

Iceland is still pretty pretty f*cked, by the way.

cosbloodymick

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Why does everyone assume we're broke because of the banks? The banks could never have gone bust and we'd still be in the midst of incredible austerity because we need to borrow 20b+ per annum to keep the country running.


The banks? Back to the pub with ye.

Because we are broke as a result of overlending and overborrowing fuelled by banks and the subsequent decision to offer a blanket guarantee. Thats what caused the problem. The budget deficit is a result of a collapse in economic activity as a result of the economic crash. You are assuming that the budget deficit happened because we were spending more than we had. But we were running budget surplusses throughout the Celtic Tiger era
And its the degree of austerity that has to be enforced. If it were not for the banking debts our economy would not have to suffer such draconian cuts. Of course we would have to balance our books but its the level of austerity that is being enforced thats killing the economy. Its like as if the medicine is killing the patient because he's taking too much of it.

cosbloodymick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So you think that we would be able to borrow at economic rates despite defaulting on our debts and running a 12% (or whatever it is today) current account deficit? Fantasy land.

Iceland is still pretty pretty f*cked, by the way.

Name one country that defaulted on its debts and was not subsequently able to borrow.

Iceland has less than half our unemployment rate, its 7%. Their economy is growing at around 3% per annum and it can borrow on the international market. Compare that to the downward spiral we are in.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer we got a deal on the banking debt and could work our way out of the problem, but if we don't get a restructure Ireland will default because the size of the debt is unsustainable!

Monty Burnz

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Name one country that defaulted on its debts and was not subsequently able to borrow.

It's not a question of being able to borrow, it's a question of being able to borrow at economic rates. When our bond yields hit 6% we were goosed - and nobody is going to lend to us in your post-bankruptcy scenario at a rate lower than that.

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Iceland has less than half our unemployment rate, its 7%. Their economy is growing at around 3% per annum and it can borrow on the international market. Compare that to the downward spiral we are in.

Iceland also has its own currency which has collapsed, making them more competitive but - of course - a lot poorer.

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer we got a deal on the banking debt and could work our way out of the problem, but if we don't get a restructure Ireland will default because the size of the debt is unsustainable!

Yeah, I think you may well be right.

Madam_X

What will it take to get YOU protesting OP? Always the other guys eh?

ilovesleep

Piliger wrote: »

marching in the streets demanding HIGHER spending

Where did we march in the streets demanding higher spending? When did we do that? What street were we marching on? Was it perhaps outside the Dail on budget days chanting - GIVE US MORE?

Piliger wrote: »

Yep - kicking the arse of any politician who said we should cut back

Whose arse did we kick?

Charlie McGreevy, when finance minister wanted to do some cutbacks in the early 00's. Charlie McGreevy was kicked in the arse out the door to Europe. Not by us, but by the taoiseach.

It was reported last year, that Brian Cowen as finance minister wanted to cut back too but he was ordered from taoiseach not to. I'll see if I can root it up now.

Piliger wrote: »

demanding that the banks lend us money we couldn't afford to pay back, to buy houses that were transparently over priced.

How did people demand that the banks lend people money that people couldn't afford to pay back?

If people couldn't afford to pay back whatever loans they wanted, why did the banks lend to them?

House prices were overpriced. Yes - I saw that and more too and didn't buy and didn't live a life on credit. People are only responsible for their own finances and nobody elses. How was I or you responsible for other peoples finances? If your neighbour felt that he/she was capable for such a commitment, who were we to stop them? We could offer advice and our opinion but at the end of the day it is their decision. How did we demand that the banks lend them money?

Monty Burnz

ilovesleep wrote: »

How did people demand that the banks lend people money that people couldn't afford to pay back?

By falsifying payslips, pretending bonuses were part of regular earnings, by borrowing the deposit from the credit union instead of saving for it - that sort of thing.

bluecode

Lando Griffin wrote: »

We are only bringing in 75000 PA now with all the cuts.
When you take out my mortgage of 1400 and other utility bills we have only 109 euro left for my unemployed wife, unemployed genius eldest son and two other poor starving children.
How can this be?
If Sky put up there prices anymore for HD + Multiroom the will have to eat unbranded products.
7 years ago when we moved into a modest well located semi d who would have thought it impossible to rent out our holiday apt in Bulgaria.
We cannot afford to put Calgon in the dishwasher every day now and it broke down.
My mother drove 40 miles to wash the dishes that day.
Who would have thought it would take nearly 120 euro a Week to fill my SUV.
Ihave started the tipping point all ready writing letters on ordinary paper since we ran out of the Belveder note paper.

While that's very funny and a nice dig at poor mouth Garda Sergeant's wife. But I read a very good point on that subject by a journalist in one of the papers. The fact of the matter is people are struggling and she has done them no favours with her lobbying because it allows people to dismiss the real hardship some people are suffering right now.

So what will get people on the streets? Probably it's when the government finally faces up to the facts that the Croke Park agreement is not working and that real cuts will have to be made to the pay and pensions of the public service workers in order to please our masters in Berlin. As the public service is heavily unionised. That's where the flashpoint will happen. That's the reason FF negotiated the deal. They were desperate to avoid massive unrest in the PS. That's also why the current government refuse to make the decisions they need to.

Once the PS start to take the real cuts. That's the flashpoint. Strikes, walkouts, marches. Once you have mass protests there are always people ready to start violence.

Right now the only people being really hit by austerity are those on low pay, the poor but mostly people who are not organised. Private sector unions lack the strength. Most of the big private sector companies are non union anyway.

The end of the Croke park agreement will be the moment.

tayto lover

MagicSean wrote: »

Change by way of violence is the most undemocratic process there is.

The Yanks don't seem to care though.

HellFireClub

bluecode wrote: »

While that's very funny and a nice dig at poor mouth Garda Sergeant's wife. But I read a very good point on that subject by a journalist in one of the papers. The fact of the matter is people are struggling and she has done them no favours with her lobbying because it allows people to dismiss the real hardship some people are suffering right now.

So what will get people on the streets? Probably it's when the government finally faces up to the facts that the Croke Park agreement is not working and that real cuts will have to be made to the pay and pensions of the public service workers in order to please our masters in Berlin. As the public service is heavily unionised. That's where the flashpoint will happen. That's the reason FF negotiated the deal. They were desperate to avoid massive unrest in the PS. That's also why the current government refuse to make the decisions they need to.

Once the PS start to take the real cuts. That's the flashpoint. Strikes, walkouts, marches. Once you have mass protests there are always people ready to start violence.

Right now the only people being really hit by austerity are those on low pay, the poor but mostly people who are not organised. Private sector unions lack the strength. Most of the big private sector companies are non union anyway.

The end of the Croke park agreement will be the moment.

But there will be ZERO public support for any protests, strikes, whingeing or moaning from the Irish public sector. The perception already, is that they are largely a constituency of spoilt brats who are trying to selfishly hold a gun to the head of the nation, at a time when we simply have not got the cash to be entertaining their irrational demands.

The Croke Park Deal will be cut short but I can't see any protests following on from that, the public, larely made up of private sector workers/unemployed people, is simply in no mood for that sort of shíte at the moment.

Monty Burnz

HellFireClub wrote: »

But there will be ZERO public support for any protests, strikes, whingeing or moaning from the Irish public sector. The perception already, is that they are largely a constituency of spoilt brats who are trying to selfishly hold a gun to the head of the nation, at a time when we simply have not got the cash to be entertaining their irrational demands.

The Croke Park Deal will be cut short but I can't see any protests following on from that, the public, larely made up of private sector workers/unemployed people, is simply in no mood for that sort of shíte at the moment.

There will still be plenty of strikes and protests from the PS folks though - and they do form a very large minority of the workforce.

HellFireClub

Monty Burnz wrote: »

There will still be plenty of strikes and protests from the PS folks though - and they do form a very large minority of the workforce.

They will be short lived, and the only violence I can see breaking out will be them being attacked as they picket by people in the private sector who have been pushed past their breaking point a year ago, seeing people on high salaries, 50K and the rest of it a year, protesting and demanding more pay.

The people who should be protesting in this country simple are not organised, and those that should be keeping their heads down and being grateful for what they have: (1) well paid public sector job (2) automatic increments (3) jobs for life, should shut up about what they will do when the unsustainable Croke Park con job gets thrown into the bin where it belongs.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

They will be short lived, and the only violence I can see breaking out will be them being attacked as they picket by people in the private sector who have been pushed past their breaking point a year ago, seeing people on high salaries, 50K and the rest of it a year, protesting and demanding more pay.

The people who should be protesting in this country simple are not organised, and those that should be keeping their heads down and being grateful for what they have: (1) well paid public sector job (2) automatic increments (3) jobs for life, should shut up about what they will do when the unsustainable Croke Park con job gets thrown into the bin where it belongs.

I think there is a lot of silly talk going on here.
Anyone in the Public Service be they nurses, teachers, garda, firemen, army etc etc are in no position as far as i can see to take further cuts. Many of them seem to be on the breadline themselves if threads like this are anything to go by. The professions i have named are not the top earners either and are put to the pin of their collar trying to pay bills.
Only a fool would think that there would be no strikes or trouble.
They have numbers of up to 300,000 workers and that is a massive amount.
If the teachers, garda, firemen, nurses and army were to stay out of work for only one day the country would be up s*** creek without a paddle.
AND the Govt know this.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

I think there is a lot of silly talk going on here.
Anyone in the Public Service be they nurses, teachers, garda, firemen, army etc etc are in no position as far as i can see to take further cuts. Many of them seem to be on the breadline themselves if threads like this are anything to go by. The professions i have named are not the top earners either and are put to the pin of their collar trying to pay bills.
Only a fool would think that there would be no strikes or trouble.
They have numbers of up to 300,000 workers and that is a massive amount.
If the teachers, garda, firemen, nurses and army were to stay out of work for only one day the country would be up s*** creek without a paddle.
AND the Govt know this.

How are people like Garda Sergeants, Teachers, Firemen, HSE Paramedics, middle ranking Civil Servants, many who have been in the job 10-15 years or more now and are easily on 50K plus salaries, if not substantially more, how on earth are they on the breadline???

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

How are people like Garda Sergeants, Teachers, Firemen, HSE Paramedics, middle ranking Civil Servants, many who have been in the job 10-15 years or more now and are easily on 50K plus salaries, if not substantially more, how on earth are they on the breadline???

From reading posts on Boards they have fairly big mortgages, education costs, car and health insurance expenses, heat and lighting bills etc.
If you have a wage of 60k then you would be lucky to take home 30k after all the taxes and levies and then you would have to pay off loans as well as the above bills. It's not hard to spend it if you have 3/4 kids i'd imagine.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

From reading posts on Boards they have fairly big mortgages, education costs, car and health insurance expenses, heat and lighting bills etc.
If you have a wage of 60k then you would be lucky to take home 30k after all the taxes and levies and then you would have to pay off loans as well as the above bills. It's not hard to spend it if you have 3/4 kids i'd imagine.

And what makes you think that people in the private sector who have had to take pay cuts, or worse again, have taken the ultimate pay cut and lost their job, what makes you think that these people also haven't had to take adjustments, don't also have big mortgages, car loans, education costs, and all the other expenses?

Why should one sector of society, by virtue of their employer being the Irish state, (which is broke by the way), be completely protected from this austerity that we are being told we have to take on, while the rest of us have to learn to live on less???

TURRICAN

connundrum wrote: »

There will be some/all sarcastic answers considering the forum, but in considering all of the events up to now which have caused disquiet, I was wondering what it would take to get a sizeable number of people out in the streets protesting.

My favourite phrase of recent weeks has been 'We can't take much more, someone will have to stand up'. If everyone trots out this phrase, who will stand up?

It would seem that interest groups i.e. the IFA, home carers are well able to organise and protest against specific injustices, but is it that we as a nation are just pissed off in general, and sure, how can you protest against being pissed off?

My real answer is: the new household charge (when it is announced), another interest hike by AIB, more judgements like the one seen here.

My AH answer: Angela Merkel visiting for 6 hours, if/when Jacobs cease production of Fig Rolls, atari jaguar.

A level headed person with good organisation qualities.
Please forward cv to boards.
Thank you.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

And what makes you think that people in the private sector who have had to take pay cuts, or worse again, have taken the ultimate pay cut and lost their job, what makes you think that these people also haven't had to take adjustments, don't also have big mortgages, car loans, education costs, and all the other expenses?

Why should one sector of society, by virtue of their employer being the Irish state, (which is broke by the way), be completely protected from this austerity that we are being told we have to take on, while the rest of us have to learn to live on less???

You mentioned the Private Sector here, not me. I answered your question.

BUT I worked in the Private Sector and wages of 60k plus were/are quite common as i'd say you well know.

HIB

A lot of people on here are saying that protesting doesn't work. From what I see.... it does, for the very select minority who protest.

When the government proposed cuts to medical cards, the old age pensioners protested in force and stopped it.
When they threatened to reintroduce university fees, the students protested and the proposals were significantly reduced. I honestly think we would have full blown fees, with a student loan system by now, if the students unions hadn't made such a fuss. Maybe we will in the future anyway, but at the very least they have delayed it.
Recently, the threatened cuts to disability services were reversed after a comparatively small group of people (I think < 100, but I'm open to correction) protested overnight outside the Dail.

I'm not saying this kind of small scale protest by small groups is good for the country, but it does achieve results.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

You mentioned the Private Sector here, not me. I answered your question.

BUT I worked in the Private Sector and wages of 60k plus were/are quite common as i'd say you well know.

They are in their shíte, I don't know one person in the private sector on that kind of money now.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

They are in their shíte, I don't know one person in the private sector on that kind of money now.

Loads are.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

Loads are.

And what kind of jobs are these people doing?

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

And what kind of jobs are these people doing?

Not going to mention specifics but a local brewery pays that kind of money.
Worked in one myself and got that before retiring a few years ago.

2ndcoming

HellFireClub wrote: »

They are in their shíte, I don't know one person in the private sector on that kind of money now.

And here in lies the major flaw in your arguments. How many people do you know that work for IBM, Google, Intel, Hewlett Packard, Facebook, IFS Statestreet, Accenture, Pfizer, Ebay, FBD, BOI the list goes on and on and on. The private sector by its nature is impossible to quantify so you can only go off the people who you KNOW how much they earn, which as far as I can tell could only really be yourself.

However the Indo and the Daily Mail are waiting there to skew publicly available figures, usually old ones at that, to their own agenda and make the villain "the public sector".

The grades you've spoken about on 50 or 60k a year haven't striked at all as far as I know, and it wouldn't make much of a difference if they did. It's the grades on 20-30k that could if they are cut, and would cause chaos by doing so, as they're the ones who keep the country ticking over as it is, just like the Passport office staff a couple of years ago. Throw in the Social Welfare staff and An Post and it would cause chaos in under a week.

The card the government would be hoping for is that these people can't actually afford to go on strike, which would basically make them glorified slaves, which is a pretty shocking state of affairs in what is still actually one of the 20 richest countries in the world.

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

Not going to mention specifics but a local brewery pays that kind of money.
Worked in one myself and got that before retiring a few years ago.

Sounds like you are talking out of your arséhole to be honest.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

Sounds like you are talking out of your arséhole to be honest.

Well if it doesn't suit your argument and agenda then try and insult the poster.

PS
We even got a weekly allowance of free drink

MagicSean

HellFireClub wrote: »

Sounds like you are talking out of your arséhole to be honest.

Sounds like you know very few people in the private sector to be honest.

HellFireClub

2ndcoming wrote: »

And here in lies the major flaw in your arguments. How many people do you know that work for IBM, Google, Intel, Hewlett Packard, Facebook, IFS Statestreet, Accenture, Pfizer, Ebay, FBD, BOI the list goes on and on and on. The private sector by its nature is impossible to quantify so you can only go off the people who you KNOW how much they earn, which as far as I can tell could only really be yourself.

However the Indo and the Daily Mail are waiting there to skew publicly available figures, usually old ones at that, to their own agenda and make the villain "the public sector".

The grades you've spoken about on 50 or 60k a year haven't striked at all as far as I know, and it wouldn't make much of a difference if they did. It's the grades on 20-30k that could if they are cut, and would cause chaos by doing so, as they're the ones who keep the country ticking over as it is, just like the Passport office staff a couple of years ago. Throw in the Social Welfare staff and An Post and it would cause chaos in under a week.

The card the government would be hoping for is that these people can't actually afford to go on strike, which would basically make them glorified slaves, which is a pretty shocking state of affairs in what is still actually one of the 20 richest countries in the world.

As it happens, I spent 6 years working in one US multinational that you have mentioned above, and despite being classified as a "skilled worker", I never grossed more than 40K in a tax year. Promotional opportunities were very few and far between and it was damn hard work. Things that are taken for granted in the public sector, for example, a pay rise immediately upon promotion, there was no such thing as that where I worked. If you got "promoted", you had to wait until your next review period to fight for a pay rise to follow the promotion, and you had to make the case that you were doing the new job successfully before you could be expecting to see a pay increase. If you were sick, even if it was certified, you could be looking at no pay increase at all for that year, it was common practice for a pay increase to be withheld if there was any sign of a problem with absence, nothing was automatic, you had to fight with your manager for everything and this was while working with one of the "leading US multinationals in Ireland" in the boom time!!!

Yes, there were managers there on more money than those of us in the majority who worked on the technical side of things, but getting promoted into such a job was nearly impossible as it was all done behind closed doors, promotional vacancies were not even advertised, and typically the ratio of subordinate staff to a manager was 22:1.

So I don't accept this bullshít that it is common practice to find people working in US Multinational's on 60K plus salaries. The only people I know in the private sector who are on that kind of money are people working in the ESB, which is a semi-state that we all know has a problem with it's wage bill, only the government hasn't the balls to go in and sort that problem out.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

As it happens, I spent 6 years working in one US multinational that you have mentioned above, and despite being classified as a "skilled worker", I never grossed more than 40K in a tax year. Promotional opportunities were very few and far between and it was damn hard work. Things that are taken for granted in the public sector, for example, a pay rise immediately upon promotion, there was no such thing as that where I worked. If you got "promoted", you had to wait until your next review period to fight for a pay rise to follow the promotion, and you had to make the case that you were doing the new job successfully before you could be expecting to see a pay increase. If you were sick, even if it was certified, you could be looking at no pay increase at all for that year, it was common practice for a pay increase to be withheld if there was any sign of a problem with absence, nothing was automatic, you had to fight with your manager for everything and this was while working with one of the "leading US multinationals in Ireland" in the boom time!!!

Yes, there were managers there on more money than those of us in the majority who worked on the technical side of things, but getting promoted into such a job was nearly impossible as it was all done behind closed doors, promotional vacancies were not even advertised, and typically the ratio of subordinate staff to a manager was 22:1.

So I don't accept this bullshít that it is common practice to find people working in US Multinational's on 60K plus salaries. The only people I know in the private sector who are on that kind of money are people working in the ESB, which is a semi-state that we all know has a problem with it's wage bill, only the government hasn't the balls to go in and sort that problem out.

Had you no Union?

2ndcoming

HellFireClub wrote: »

As it happens, I spent 6 years working in one US multinational that you have mentioned above, and despite being classified as a "skilled worker", I never grossed more than 40K in a tax year. Promotional opportunities were very few and far between and it was damn hard work. Things that are taken for granted in the public sector, for example, a pay rise immediately upon promotion, there was no such thing as that where I worked. If you got "promoted", you had to wait until your next review period to fight for a pay rise to follow the promotion, and you had to make the case that you were doing the new job successfully before you could be expecting to see a pay increase. If you were sick, even if it was certified, you could be looking at no pay increase at all for that year, it was common practice for a pay increase to be withheld if there was any sign of a problem with absence, nothing was automatic, you had to fight with your manager for everything and this was while working with one of the "leading US multinationals in Ireland" in the boom time!!!

Yes, there were managers there on more money than those of us in the majority who worked on the technical side of things, but getting promoted into such a job was nearly impossible as it was all done behind closed doors, promotional vacancies were not even advertised, and typically the ratio of subordinate staff to a manager was 22:1.

So I don't accept this bullshít that it is common practice to find people working in US Multinational's on 60K plus salaries. The only people I know in the private sector who are on that kind of money are people working in the ESB, which is a semi-state that we all know has a problem with it's wage bill, only the government hasn't the balls to go in and sort that problem out.

There you go, the subordinate staff in the majority of the public service don't earn 40k or anything like it, the exception being guards and nurses who I think even the most biased agenda driven posters find it hard to argue with.

That is of course unless, as an office worker on the technical side in a US multinational you think you deserve to be paid more than a nurse or guard?

HellFireClub

tayto lover wrote: »

Had you no Union?

Nope, US multinational's in this country "don't do" unions.

tayto lover

HellFireClub wrote: »

Nope, US multinational's in this country "don't do" unions.

That explains why then. You always need a good strong Union to get anywhere.

HellFireClub

2ndcoming wrote: »

There you go, the subordinate staff in the majority of the public service don't earn 40k or anything like it, the exception being guards and nurses who I think even the most biased agenda driven posters find it hard to argue with.

That is of course unless, as an office worker on the technical side in a US multinational you think you deserve to be paid more than a nurse or guard?

Approximately 35% of that salary was a shift allowance, another 2K on a good year would have been a bonus scheme and around 15%-20% of it would have been overtime. So my core "salary" would have been around 25K maximum I imagine, and this was the same generally for others that I worked with on the floor.

All in all, I felt like I was on good money with the way it worked out that when it was all added up, I had a 40K a year salary. But I got a shift allowance because I worked a shift structure. I got overtime because I did overtime. It was damn hard work, and often due to the shift nature of the job, it cut completely across weekends, Christmas, Bank Holidays, etc.

So a "40K" a year gross salary, was really a 25K basic salary with bells & whistles bolted onto it...

But I never felt after getting a P60 for the year saying that I earned 40K for the previous year, that I was on shít money, as our cossetted PS workers seem to think when they hear of 40K a year incomes...

MagicSean

HellFireClub wrote: »

So a "40K" a year gross salary, was really a 25K basic salary with bells & whistles bolted onto it...

Same as a Garda so.

2ndcoming

HellFireClub wrote: »

Approximately 35% of that salary was a shift allowance, another 2K on a good year would have been a bonus scheme and around 15%-20% of it would have been overtime. So my core "salary" would have been around 25K maximum I imagine, and this was the same generally for others that I worked with on the floor.

All in all, I felt like I was on good money with the way it worked out that when it was all added up, I had a 40K a year salary. But I got a shift allowance because I worked a shift structure. I got overtime because I did overtime. It was damn hard work, and often due to the shift nature of the job, it cut completely across weekends, Christmas, Bank Holidays, etc.

So a "40K" a year gross salary, was really a 25K basic salary with bells & whistles bolted onto it...

But I never felt after getting a P60 for the year saying that I earned 40K for the previous year, that I was on shít money, as our cossetted PS workers seem to think when they hear of 40K a year incomes...

Congratulations, but bear in mind there are no bonuses in the public service, and overtime for the vast majority is a thing of the past. So that 25k with bells and whistles as you say, for them is 25k.

What's your stance on cutting pay for people on 25-30k out of interest, seeing as you can't seem to get this idea of everyone in the public service being some sort of pet millionaire we're paying for the craic out of your head?

cosbloodymick

HellFireClub wrote: »

Approximately 35% of that salary was a shift allowance, another 2K on a good year would have been a bonus scheme and around 15%-20% of it would have been overtime. So my core "salary" would have been around 25K maximum I imagine, and this was the same generally for others that I worked with on the floor.

All in all, I felt like I was on good money with the way it worked out that when it was all added up, I had a 40K a year salary. But I got a shift allowance because I worked a shift structure. I got overtime because I did overtime. It was damn hard work, and often due to the shift nature of the job, it cut completely across weekends, Christmas, Bank Holidays, etc.

So a "40K" a year gross salary, was really a 25K basic salary with bells & whistles bolted onto it...




But I never felt after getting a P60 for the year saying that I earned 40K for the previous year, that I was on shít money, as our cossetted PS workers seem to think when they hear of 40K a year incomes...

I am sorry to hear you were treated so badly.
Why would you want similar treatment for other workers?
Let the race to the bottom continue!

HellFireClub

2ndcoming wrote: »

Congratulations, but bear in mind there are no bonuses in the public service, and overtime for the vast majority is a thing of the past. So that 25k with bells and whistles as you say, for them is 25k.

What's your stance on cutting pay for people on 25-30k out of interest, seeing as you can't seem to get this idea of everyone in the public service being some sort of pet millionaire we're paying for the craic out of your head?

I don't agree at all with people on 25-30K a year being cut. But I don't think its right that teachers, Gardai, Civil Serpents, who are on 45/50/60/70K plus salaries, have any business whatsoever giving out! I also have a huge issue with increments being automatic, it doesn't incentivise improvement in performance, rather it removes any incentive to outperform as an employee.

Sick pay, how come the absentee level in the public sector is twice that of the private sector? Redundancies, why are public servants completely immune from dismissal or redundancy?

Also, my biggest bug bear of all, is this subtle, union led policy of refusing to cooperate with any change in work practices, unless more money is put on the table for an employee or more specifically, a group of employees. The reason we have a public sector that isn't fit for purpose in 2012, is because of this, because a situation has been allowed emerge, where change gets completely opposed for the sole purpose of adopting an entrenched negotiating position. The outcome is that we have the highest paid public servants on earth who have it in their heads that they can begrudgingly cooperate with a bit of the total change that is being sought, only after they have managed to negotiate for themselves, a sizable slice of the budget for the change that was sought.

You want to know why the Revenue computer system won't talk to the Social Welfare computer system, it is because of this kind of, "well we won't be cooperating with that", mentality that has been allowed to fester in our public sector. I saw it with my own eyes in college, a lab full of brand new PC's & IT equipment for students was locked and put out of use for a whole year because one of the departmental technicians got it in his head that he hadn't been properly consulted about this decision that had been made by the head of his department, who thought that us students needed our own computer lab for research purposes, as we had previously been sharing a lab of computers with another department. So what was the outcome? Tens of thousands of Euro of tax payers money, is left sitting idle in a room that cannot be used, because one jumped up little príck, who ought to have fúck all to do with the decision, starts making a song and a dance about it and through the threat of industrial action in association with his union, gets the lab put beyond use of students who badly needed the facility, for a whole college year!

The only good thing that has come out of this Croke Park Deal is that this belligerence and intransigence that has been around for years, is finally being red carded and shown the fúcking door.

Markcheese

pmcmahon wrote: »

Student regestration fees increasing this year will cause a big uproar.Students don't have as many distractions as employed people,like pensioners they're the biggest group capable of large scale protest.

Unlike pensioners students don't vote... Protest yes, vote no... So where are politicians going take notice ... Protesting pensioners... Which is why pensions and perks haven't been touched

HellFireClub

I personally do think that people are starting to wake up and react to the destruction of our country as a matter of public policy.