Search Engine Optimisation

mark.h8080

I run a small business and we have had a website for about 5 years, now the website is grand and has our services and contact details etc but it's not in the top of google when I try and search it. People find us but I think that's from google our name directly. My nephew recently put analytics in our site and I was shocked by hits (despite us getting lots of calls each week, when asked they said they found us on directories like yelp).

My nephew who does web design at college said I should do some search engine optimisation (he does not know enough to do it but understands it, to me it's a foreign language) but to be careful who I choose.

I sent out some emails to companies I found online in Ireland and am waiting for replies on costing, but how much should I expect to spend on this and will it get me to the top of google in my area?

As a businessman of over 30 years in my sector I want to know my money is well spent and have been told by a fellow business operator they pay €200 a month. Is this the standard for an entry level seo or are there packages? It seems a lot of money to me unless I get business from the campaign.

Also, in my research I found a company called DPFOC who seem to be very high in google so my instinct is that this crowd know their business. Has anyone dealt with them? Can anyone recommend some companies for me to get quotes from to do the seo I need?

Do I need to pay people to do this or can I give my nephew information to make us top of searches in google, in this climate anything we can do ourselves would be of huge benefit.

MadsL

mark.h8080 wrote: »

I run a small business and we have had a website for about 5 years, now the website is grand and has our services and contact details etc but it's not in the top of google when I try and search it. People find us but I think that's from google our name directly. My nephew recently put analytics in our site and I was shocked by hits (despite us getting lots of calls each week, when asked they said they found us on directories like yelp).

My nephew who does web design at college said I should do some search engine optimisation (he does not know enough to do it but understands it, to me it's a foreign language) but to be careful who I choose.

I sent out some emails to companies I found online in Ireland and am waiting for replies on costing, but how much should I expect to spend on this and will it get me to the top of google in my area?

As a businessman of over 30 years in my sector I want to know my money is well spent and have been told by a fellow business operator they pay €200 a month. Is this the standard for an entry level seo or are there packages? It seems a lot of money to me unless I get business from the campaign.

Also, in my research I found a company called DPFOC who seem to be very high in google so my instinct is that this crowd know their business. Has anyone dealt with them? Can anyone recommend some companies for me to get quotes from to do the seo I need?

Do I need to pay people to do this or can I give my nephew information to make us top of searches in google, in this climate anything we can do ourselves would be of huge benefit.

Spend the money on training yourself or your nephew how to do it. It is not rocket science. Most people charging either will do basic stuff your can do yourself or be unethical and boost you temporarily using tricks that google and other engines will eventually downgrade you for.

I attended this course and found them excellent
http://www.praxisnow.ie/seo/courses/Search-Engine-Optimisation-Day.htm

Note that they are also #1 search result for "search engine optimization training ireland"

recommend two people attend as you can bounce ideas later.

Also consider posting your website here for immediate triage.

I'm not in anyway affliated with Praxis now.

The Apprentice

MadsL wrote: »

Most people charging either will do basic stuff your can do yourself or be unethical and boost you temporarily using tricks that google and other engines will eventually downgrade you for.

I dont like this comment my friend, its very flippant and derogatory towards Online marketers. I would love to hear more on your Hypothesis on what MOST people do with some relevant facts please.

Pm your website, Mark i can give you a FREE independant review with a few small tips/advice etc on your website to see if marketing can improve its Search engine position.
You can do some easy marketing yourself with some promotion such as "Yelp" boards, and other online sites/directories to increase your presence online.
Im making a very broad assumption unless your in a very competitive space that your competition may be weak - moderate meaning you may not have to spend a lot of money to gain a Top 10 Position it really depends on what your space is and what keywords you want to rank for.
On a relatively easy - moderate keywords 10-20 you could potentially spend €500 per month on a 6-12 Month contract..

You can get cheaper but its just less hours .. its not that it may be inferior as the other poster suggests. I cant say ive ever heard of dpfoc personally or seen them in action. Also dont be mislead by the position of a SEO company on the search engine ranks, always look for case studies and how competive the keywords are that they have ranked other companies for..

There is no real magic bullet to this, and yes you could do this yourself although if your in a super comptetive space i would leave it to the professionals.. You could spend €500 a month for 10 hrs work or you could spend €50,000 it depends on what your budget is.

Your goals need to be specific,
Traffic . Brand . Sales ??

And again before anyone jumps on the bandwagon im not taking you on, nor going to point you towards someone i know personally (in the seo Industry) im sure you can ring the first 10 companies you find on google for 10 different Seo keyword versions..

Best of luck with it either way buddy !!

flynnlives

I agree with the apprentice. SEO and Online Marketing isnt as simple as madsl states. Its quite a naive opinion imo.

SEO and Online Marketing is a huge industry. In fact its a multibillion dollar industry.

Anyways im looking for experience in SEO, il run a SEO campaign for you for 3 months utilising all my knowlege to date.

PM if your interested.

sandin

I used Mark Loud www.seocompany.ie for my initial set-up. It was via a referral from a friend. What I liked about his style (can't comment on others as I didn;t try anyone else) was he had a meeting, asked what I wanted, gave a plan and a fixed cost based on how many hours work it needed.

As I was in a fairly competitive field and needed a fair bit of work done, it cost about €1500 over 6 months, but I was top of rankings fairly quickly (less than 3 months and have remained there ever since. My seo and web updating / marketing are now in house as our turnover is excess €1m online.

As with anything, you get what you pay for but also you can be sold more than you need - I'd pick 3 companies, meet with all three and go with the one you are most comfortable with.

Kenny Logins

What sector or specific business? Some small businesses are lucky to be in a relatively uncrowded sector and this makes Google ranking much easier. I'm no expert, but have dabbled, and with some reading up and applying what I learned, managed to get two sites within the first 5 results on Google for a range of relevant search terms.

sandin

Kenny Logins wrote: »

What sector? Some small businesses are lucky to be in a relatively uncrowded sector and this makes Google ranking much easier. I'm no expert, but have dabbled, and with some reading up and applying what I learned, managed to get two sites within the first 5 results on Google for a range of relevant search terms.

I don't give my sector out on boards, but I would have about 30+ competitors online, about 10 are based in Ireland and the rest UK. I was a total start-up 3 years ago and now 2nd largest online seller of the products in uk/Ireland and have 9 staff working on the online business alone. About 30% of sales are to UK / europe.

If you were in an uncrowded sector a few minor changes would put you up there. - A friend owns a septic tank cleaning / servicing operation and I reckon he'd get first 3 rankings in 4 weeks as its a specialist market with few operators and even fewer witha decent website.

Peterdalkey

Mods: Might I suggest this heading as a sticky, I do understand that there is also a separate SEO heading in Tech but it tends to be a bit too techie for people just trying to get their heads around the subject for the first time. The business person feedback at this point is probably the most helpful to the querists. The topic does crop up regularly here.

Please +1 this if you agree

Thanks

Peter

JMR

Peterdalkey wrote: »

Mods: Might I suggest this heading as a sticky, I do understand that there is also a separate SEO heading in Tech but it tends to be a bit too techie for people just trying to get their heads around the subject for the first time. The business person feedback at this point is probably the most helpful to the querists. The topic does crop up regularly here.

Please +1 this if you agree

Thanks

Peter

+1

Matrix Internet Web Design

This is an unfortunate comment, and needless to say it does nothing to help improve the image of the SEO industry as a whole.

If everyone could just go on a day long training course and then start improving their websites, rankings, traffic and conversions, then there would be no need for SEO agencies and practitioners - and the multi-billion dollar SEO/online marketing industry wouldn't exist.

It exists because SEO isn't something you pick up over coffee on a course. It will give you a start, but if you are serious about your business and its online presence, and getting sales/leads through a critically important channel, then go to someone who can give you professional advice and get results for you. Or, hire someone with the skills.

You also might be surprised to learn that 'search engine optimisation training Ireland' isn't actually something that people search for on Google! So, it's of virtually no consequence. Any good SEO guy worth his salt would tell you that

Kenny Logins

sandin wrote: »

I don't give my sector out on boards, but I would have about 30+ competitors online, about 10 are based in Ireland and the rest UK. I was a total start-up 3 years ago and now 2nd largest online seller of the products in uk/Ireland and have 9 staff working on the online business alone. About 30% of sales are to UK / europe.

If you were in an uncrowded sector a few minor changes would put you up there. - A friend owns a septic tank cleaning / servicing operation and I reckon he'd get first 3 rankings in 4 weeks as its a specialist market with few operators and even fewer witha decent website.

That's great, but I was actually replying to the OP, who it seems doesn't have a budget for SEO.

MadsL

Matrix Internet Web Design wrote: »

This is an unfortunate comment, and needless to say it does nothing to help improve the image of the SEO industry as a whole.

If everyone could just go on a day long training course and then start improving their websites, rankings, traffic and conversions, then there would be no need for SEO agencies and practitioners - and the multi-billion dollar SEO/online marketing industry wouldn't exist.

It exists because SEO isn't something you pick up over coffee on a course.

Hmm. An intensive training course by a well recognised SEO training company/consultants is "picking stuff up over coffee". And I'm flippant?

It will give you a start, but if you are serious about your business and its online presence, and getting sales/leads through a critically important channel, then go to someone who can give you professional advice and get results for you. Or, hire someone with the skills.

I agree, but if you have less than 500 quid to spend it is better to get some training on basic stuff. I wonder how much the OP would get done by consultants for €500, they will either be noobs desperate for some experience or will do a quick fix. The OP also should be trained if he/she is going to invest in any way in SEO - it is far too easy to be caught out by black hat SEO tricks that backfire in the longerterm. It is quite useful to at least speak the same language.

You also might be surprised to learn that 'search engine optimisation training Ireland' isn't actually something that people search for on Google! So, it's of virtually no consequence. Any good SEO guy worth his salt would tell you that

Two things, firstly that was the exact phrase i used to find their website, and secondly I can tell you that yes, that is not a widely searched term and that global search for that term were approx 4,400 a month. Praxisnow also do well under "SEO Training" 3rd on google.ie.

The reason I know how to look that up and not have to have a SEO guy tell me that (worth his salt or not) is because I attended that training course.

Some of you seem to be advocating the OP not educating himself first about a field in which some of you I'm sure would like to charge him quite a considerable amount.

macbookair

From my research, back links are the key to SEO. If you can get your website linked to other websites that are relevant to your industry, Google rank this very highly.

Matrix Internet Web Design

MadsL wrote: »

Hmm. An intensive training course by a well recognised SEO training company/consultants is "picking stuff up over coffee". And I'm flippant?

Where did I say you were being flippant? The overall gist of your post was both short-sighted in terms of how to learn SEO and apply it successfully to achieve results, as well as a slur on reputable and professional SEO agencies. You basically said 'ah sure it's a piece of cake, don't spend your money on cowboys'. It might not have been your attention to convey that, but that's how it came across.

There is a definite impression that SEO people are out to spam your links across a bunch of dodgy directories and websites (and some do), but it's not what we want the industry to be known for. There are a lot of reputable providers out there getting results the right way.

MadsL wrote: »

I agree, but if you have less than 500 quid to spend it is better to get some training on basic stuff. I wonder how much the OP would get done by consultants for €500, they will either be noobs desperate for some experience or will do a quick fix. The OP also should be trained if he/she is going to invest in any way in SEO - it is far too easy to be caught out by black hat SEO tricks that backfire in the longerterm. It is quite useful to at least speak the same language.

For less than €500, you could hire us to do your SEO, and there is a good chance we'll have you on page 1 relatively quickly - increasing your website visits and driving conversions. Is that better than going on a training course and maybe never getting around to doing much or any SEO?

MadsL wrote: »

Two things, firstly that was the exact phrase i used to find their website, and secondly I can tell you that yes, that is not a widely searched term and that global search for that term were approx 4,400 a month. Praxisnow also do well under "SEO Training" 3rd on google.ie.

The reason I know how to look that up and not have to have a SEO guy tell me that (worth his salt or not) is because I attended that training course.

I know it was the exact phrase, that's why I quoted it?! Knowing that above information is perfectly fine, it's how it fits into the overall SEO strategy and set of actions that you will carry out that matters.

MadsL wrote: »

Some of you seem to be advocating the OP not educating himself first about a field in which some of you I'm sure would like to charge him quite a considerable amount.

I wouldn't advocate that at all, I am all for training - in the right context, as a supplement or support in boosting your existing knowledge, or maybe because you are happy to take your time to learn it over time, and then apply it. But believing that you can't get someone to do your SEO for a not considerable amount is also another misconception.

In fact, I would say that those who get the most out of their investment in SEO are the ones who both engage others to help them, AND spend time learning about the topic themselves.

MadsL

^Well there you go OP.

€500 to get you page one. Let us know how it goes.

Bakemate

I also did the Praxis Now course and found it to be excellent. If you're confident in your ability to update your own website and pick things up quickly and have a small budget then a course in SEO is worth its weight in gold. Of course there are experts out there who know this stuff inside out, but they'll charge you accordingly. The company website I was doing the course for, is now number 1 in Google and I don't have any IT background. To be honest, I haven't done much on SEO in the last year, but the rankings have stayed up. An SEO professional will always tell you that you're better off to spend the money on a professional, which is fine if you have the money and don't have the time yourself, but as a business owner with a website, I think it's important to understand how these things work anyway, as most businesses are not going to have a permanent SEO employee.

Matrix Internet Web Design

MadsL wrote: »

^Well there you go OP.

€500 to get you page one. Let us know how it goes.

It is possible when you know what you're doing. So OP, feel free to get in touch!

Matrix Internet Web Design

Bakemate wrote: »

I also did the Praxis Now course and found it to be excellent. If you're confident in your ability to update your own website and pick things up quickly and have a small budget then a course in SEO is worth its weight in gold. Of course there are experts out there who know this stuff inside out, but they'll charge you accordingly. The company website I was doing the course for, is now number 1 in Google and I don't have any IT background. To be honest, I haven't done much on SEO in the last year, but the rankings have stayed up. An SEO professional will always tell you that you're better off to spend the money on a professional, which is fine if you have the money and don't have the time yourself, but as a business owner with a website, I think it's important to understand how these things work anyway, as most businesses are not going to have a permanent SEO employee.

Couldn't agree more.

Any marketing professional or agency is going to tell you to spend the money on them. It's up to you to gauge whether the value is there, and a huge part of that is looking at what they've done before, the results they've achieved, the experience they have, the clients they've worked with/are working with, etc.

So in other words, there is a definite place for both hiring someone - and training!

MadsL

Matrix Internet Web Design wrote: »

So in other words, there is a definite place for both hiring someone - and training!

I think the debate is, given a limited budget, spend it on training or consultants. I'd spend it on training tbh.

The Apprentice

I have to agree and dissagree .. Madsl

Would you take training, when building your own house to Plaster walls, Drywalling, Laying down floors, Block work, 4 Years of an electrical Apprenticeship to become a sparky or Chippy ??

That arguement is valid in some circumstances.. The op has 20-30 odd years, doing whatever - do you think off chance that he has the time to do this himself ??

Its just one of those things that "Most" people would outsource and be done with it.. Whether he,s happy with the service he gets is another Topic what so ever.. You have to bear that in mind

Peterdalkey

This such a great topic and having spent much of the last year involved in rejuvenating our websites, improving SEO and tweaking AdWords campaigns alongside external designers and digital marketing talent. I learned a lot, understood most of it, spent time educating myself by reading online blogs, articles and SEO For Dummies. It is the combination of all of these that make it all work better. Probably the most important thing I understood was that I knew my market and the associated terms better than any Digital Marketing person ever could, what they knew was how to use that information effectively. Like regular marketing and advertising, it is your responsibility to manage, you use the external talent to get effective campaigns in place and fill the in-house expertise deficit.

MadsL

The Apprentice wrote: »

I have to agree and dissagree .. Madsl

Would you take training, when building your own house to Plaster walls, Drywalling, Laying down floors, Block work, 4 Years of an electrical Apprenticeship to become a sparky or Chippy ??

If I were to take on the task of building my own house I think it reasonable advise to get some understanding on the basics of what is good practice in the building industry to ensure your contractors are not cowboys.

The Apprentice

Yes that is a valid point, but perhaps that first brick you layed down in the house or the garden path you installed yourself would eventually collapse the house at a later date .. Weird scenario but true, ive seen many a gent do their own in house seo only not to follow or keep up to date or do something frowned upon and muck it up..

I fully understand what your saying, his time nor heart just may not be in it. I would like to think myself that anyone that owned a business would like to have a grasp or understanding about who is doing what to justify a wage whether internal or external !

its a bag of worms all right

MadsL

The Apprentice wrote: »

the garden path you installed yourself would eventually collapse the house

If I were incapable of laying a garden path without endangering the house, I would be well advised not to project manage my own house build, wouldn't you think?

MadsL

Spam - do not click link

The Apprentice

Some people can be capable of ****ing up a website without knowing so would be well advised to leave it for someone that knows what their at .. Thats my point exactly bud

MadsL

The Apprentice wrote: »

Some people can be capable of ****ing up a website without knowing so would be well advised to leave it for someone that knows what their at .. Thats my point exactly bud

Screwing up a website is easily reversible would be my point. "Bud".

The Apprentice

And the lost revenue ? Brand damage possibly .. would you reverse this ?

MadsL

The Apprentice wrote: »

And the lost revenue ? Brand damage possibly .. would you reverse this ?

Lost revenue is impossible to quantify.

You would want to be some idiot to screw up your own website to the point where you cause brand damage.

Seriously, I take your point but you are pushing too far. Nothing wrong with someone fixing the basic stuff themselves.

TsuDhoNimh

I tried avoiding jumping into this debate as it's a never ending one where both sides are right (and equally, both are wrong).

Should a business owner try and educate themselves as much as is feasible?
Of course.
That goes without question and isn't limited to just SEO or digital marketing. Anyone working in the area will actually spend a huge amount of their time providing informal training and knowledge to clients so that they begin to understand the detailed nuances of the industry.

Is a course enough to get started with digital marketing?
Yes and No.

You don't need a course to get started with the basics, you can easily do it yourself with some self paced learning via the internet (how most professionals got started, complimented with extensive hands on experience playing with their own sites).

Courses are a good option for those who don't take well to distance learning or the ad hoc nature of self paced learning, but no course (certainly not the short courses mentioned in the thread, but it's just as applicable to longer term courses) will be able to delve into the level of detail required to do any more than scratch the surface. I say this as someone who lectures on these type of courses (from basic one hour talks right up to MSc level) and who does believe they do provide a great benefit for those who want/need them.

The fact remains however that even following a course in the area there will be huge gaps in the knowledge base. There's only so much that can be taught in a single module and given that a course needs to be aimed at the 'average user' they don't even begin to scratch into the nitty gritty and advanced technical side of things (I've given talks that other advanced technical users struggled to comprehend and been at talks in the area that I struggled to understand [no fault of the speaker, it's just that the level of the talk was aimed above my current knowledge of a specific topic] - it's a huge area that requires a vast amount of time to gain real expertise in).

It doesn't mean that a small business owner can't do a huge amount to their own site(s) to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of their digital marketing efforts, but it does mean that there can be huge advantages in outsourcing the work to someone with more experience, more knowledge and more streamlined working practices.

Should they try and do it all themselves?
It depends on the business (and owner).

In most cases, no, they're better off working on the business as a whole than to become over-invested in a single niche aspect of it. It's a full time job keeping up with the changes that occur in the industry and would be extremely difficult for anyone to justify the investment of time needed to keep fully up to date unless they were working in the industry full time.

It may be the case that they're better off gaining a base knowledge and then hiring the talent to execute the strategies in-house, it may be a case that they're better off outsourcing it completely or it may be the case that they're better off executing it themselves until such time that they hit a point where they need to take it to the next level and then approaching one of the other options. The truth is that there's no one size fits all answer and it depends on the specific people involved and the business involved.

Should they try and learn more? Yes.
Should they do a course to learn it? Depends. If they want to, then sure, if not there are a wide variety of other options available that can provide better/equal/worse results.
Should they outsource the work? Depends. If they want to, then sure, if not there are a wide variety of other options available that can provide better/equal/worse results.

riveratom

Peterdalkey wrote: »

This such a great topic and having spent much of the last year involved in rejuvenating our websites, improving SEO and tweaking AdWords campaigns alongside external designers and digital marketing talent. I learned a lot, understood most of it, spent time educating myself by reading online blogs, articles and SEO For Dummies. It is the combination of all of these that make it all work better. Probably the most important thing I understood was that I knew my market and the associated terms better than any Digital Marketing person ever could, what they knew was how to use that information effectively. Like regular marketing and advertising, it is your responsibility to manage, you use the external talent to get effective campaigns in place and fill the in-house expertise deficit.

Totally agree with this - and it's business people like yourself, who know that the application is ultimately what matters - who will be likely to get the best results for their business from online marketing.