Search Engine Optimisation

riveratom

Out of interest, if the SMEs / small business owners on this thread could have the use of an app or tool to help them learn about and manage their own SEO, what would that app or tool look like?

What would the main points be that you would want to see addressed?

MarkScully

I've had to read back from the beginning of this thread to get a grasp of the discussion to-date. Quite a heated subject!

The one point which I will make clear is that SEO does not have instant quick wins.

Companies who promise first page rankings are typically those who practice black hat/out-dated methods which no longer work and have been massively frowned upon.

SEO is shifting back into the phase which it should have always been. Search engine marketing.

dmc1550

>I run a small business and we have had a website for about 5 years, now the >website is grand and has our services and contact details etc but it's not in >the top of google when I try and search it

Google in recent times have changed the way they rank search responses. In times past google paid attention to keyword entries in the html header. They no longer do this. Bing do, but not google. The key items to pay attention to for search optimization are:

- url name
- description of site
- number of external links that reference your site
- the amount of times people have clicked on your site

I run a small web design company (www.purplelakedesign.com) and I can help you with if want.

Regards,
Diane

MarkScully

dmc1550 wrote: »

>I run a small business and we have had a website for about 5 years, now the >website is grand and has our services and contact details etc but it's not in >the top of google when I try and search it

Google in recent times have changed the way they rank search responses. In times past google paid attention to keyword entries in the html header. They no longer do this. Bing do, but not google. The key items to pay attention to for search optimization are:

- url name
- description of site
- number of external links that reference your site
- the amount of times people have clicked on your site

I run a small web design company (www.purplelakedesign.com) and I can help you with if want.

Regards,
Diane

Hi Diane,

I'm sorry, but you're incorrect on the majority of points you made.

When you mention description, do you mean the meta-description? This is not a ranking factor. It will only impact on CTR.

The number of external links referencing the site means very little if they are from low quality low authority websites such as directories, article submission sites, badly maintained blogs etc. External links are important if they have the correct anchor text distribution (with most focus on brand terms) and come from respectable sites.

The number of clicks through to a site is also not a ranking factor.

From looking at your own site, you're still using the out-dated keywords meta tag, have a page title focusing only on company name with little to no content on your home-page.

flynnlives

flynnlives wrote: »

Im from a web dev backgorund and have been building sites for 3 or so years.
Im looking to move across into SEO so im looking to gain experience. Im fairly tech knowledgeable and have a good idea
about SEO and constantly learning.

Im basically looking to take on 3/4 clients for 2/3 months, train them up whilst helping them improve their ranking.
if anyone is interested they can pm me. The experience is more valuable to me then the money.

my offer is still going guys if anyone is interested.

Got a few PM's but nothing concrete

TsuDhoNimh

dmc1550 wrote: »

Google in recent times have changed the way they rank search responses. In times past google paid attention to keyword entries in the html header. They no longer do this. Bing do, but not google.

Bing have admitted to using the meta keyword tag, but they've never clearly stated that they actually use it as a ranking factor.

The majority of Bings input into this area has come from Duane Forrester, senior product manager for Bing webmaster outreach, and it has all pointed towards Bing using the keyword tag as a spam signal more so than a ranking one.

The old "Bing use it, Google don't" is about 2 years out of date and every test to date suggests that if it in fact is a signal for Bing it's of (extremely) negligible weighting.

MarkScully wrote: »

The number of clicks through to a site is also not a ranking factor.

A bold statement Mark.

With regards to Bing, they openly admit to using CTR as an organic search signal.

With regards to Google, they're a little more cagey.

Every in-house test I've run and every piece of external research I've seen suggests the opposite. Even (former) members of Google's own team disagree with it...

"It's pretty clear that any reasonable search engine would use click data on their own results to feed back into ranking to improve the quality of search results."

The fact that the former employee goes on to even point out a Google patent which shows that they use it as a signal (he mentions a single patent, though there are others which incorporate it too), it's a safe bet (especially when viewed in the context of the extremely high correlation between rankings and high CTR) that it is in fact a signal.


The bottom line is that it's pretty irrelevant whether it's an organic search signal or not, as it forms the first step and is a vital component of any CRO exercise regardless of its impact on SEO. However, if someone is going to state it as a fact... I'd love to see anything to back up the claim.

MarkScully

The importance of CTR as an organic search signal is quite low compared to other factors. This is why I would barely place any emphasis on it due to Google seeking the best content related to the search query. The number of brand/company related searches would be a more important ranking factor for website than the volume of clicks it receives from just any broad searches.

No substantial research has been published to indicate it's a ranking factor within their algorithm.

I do agree with you on the importance of CTR in regards CRO. It's quite impossible to run effective CRO tests without a considerable CTR in order to draw conclusions from results.

IRE60

Google being the Ron L Hubbard of search engines rarely say anything precise, actually very rerely give a straight yes or no. So to that end the do intimate that they use something like a CTR in their Algo.

Second para:
http://www.google.ie/goodtoknow/data-on-google/more-relevant/


"If our engineers can see that people are consistently clicking on the top result for any given query, they know they are doing something right"

Its not exactly a ringing endorsement - but its a good 'hat tip'!

Look, if they use CTR in their Adwords model then they will have it on their radar. And if you think of it logically CTR, Time on Site and Bounce rates are good indicators (amongst others) to them of a users satisfaction with the site chosen after a search query.

MarkScully

I think that quote can be more aligned to whether the top result returns the most relevant website to the search query, rather than whether the top search result is the most clicked search result for that search query.

I'm not saying outright that CTR means nothing, but in terms of all the ranking factors impacting a site, it certainly falls very short.

I do agree with your final point though IRE60. The walls separating SEO and PPC are becoming slightly thinner.

TsuDhoNimh

MarkScully wrote: »

No substantial research has been published to indicate it's a ranking factor within their algorithm.

The fact is nobody would benefit enough from confirming it either way to warrant substantial research or investment in the area.

The fact is that improving CTR will have significant benefits far outweighing the organic ranking benefits it may (or may not - I personally believe it does based on my own testing, the limited tests that have been made public and the information that has been included in the Google patents and some of their statements) have, so is something that should be a corner stone of any digital marketing strategy regardless.

MarkScully wrote: »

I do agree with you on the importance of CTR in regards CRO. It's quite impossible to run effective CRO tests without a considerable CTR in order to draw conclusions from results.

It's about far more than simply bumping the numbers to gain a higher number of results and increase the confidence of results, it's an integral part of the CRO process itself.

It's understandable that it often gets neglected in terms of CRO given its position so high up the conversion funnel, but taking the time to increase CTR (whether that's by incorporating rich snippets, using the author tag to increase the authority of a listing or by optimising a meta description) can lead to dramatic improvements across the board.

If the CTR can be greatly increased on a niche and targeted keyphrase, the impact at the end of the funnel can be dramatic.

IRE60

MarkScully wrote: »

No substantial research has been published to indicate it's a ranking factor within their algorithm.

No research exists at all on the loading of any of the 200+ elements of the Alog. All you can deal with is empirical research, listening to others, listening to Google on the various webmaster forums and implementation of best practice.