Sub 3 Muffin Man

interested

shotgunmcos wrote: »

@Kurt - no idea to be honest. More than likely one long swim session per week up to 2+ hours to practice fuelling. Then 3 other swims of which Ill favour OW and technique.

10k swims eh ...

a) forget the refueling rubbish - swim fast enough to ensure you don't need to.
b) If you can do 3 sets of 10*100's under intended race pace or slightly under race pace (so 3hours for 10k is under 1.38/100 pace) - on the day, with a bit of confidence you'll be more than fine.
c) break your foot the week before hand.


Ok, c) might be part of the idiot-guide but you definitely don't need to be swimming continuously for 2+ hours champ. If you want a long swim, do 40*100 on 1.35 ... if you're body doesnt know what sub 3 hours pace for 10k is after that, just head out for a long run

Hmmm ... "If we can listen, let go and just go, we can surprise ourselves IMO " - time to eat that dog food ?

griffin100

interested wrote: »

If you can do 3 sets of 10*100's under intended race pace or slightly under race pace (so 3hours for 10k is under 1.38/100 pace) - on the day, with a bit of confidence you'll be more than fine.

Ok I'll bite

what is the rest interval between the individual 100's and the rest interval between the three sets?

interested

griffin100 wrote: »

Ok I'll bite

what is the rest interval between the individual 100's and the rest interval between the three sets?

considering the lad would be doing this long course in UL, say 1.45.
and an extra 60-90 between the sets.
The objective is to train the body / stroke to adapt over time to swimming at or just under the preferred / intended race pace - in a controlled environment.

The idea behind 3 sets of 10 is that - its possible to tailor the 3km swim to enable progression:
(3 sets because it should take under an hour, and make a hell of a lunch time swim - add or remove sets as required - most Ive ever done in one sitting was 60*100 on 1.15 all under 1.05 (a life time ago long course) as 12 sets of 5 desc 1-5 with 60' between each set).


For example
Cycle 1:
10 * 100 on 1.50 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.40 holding 1.35 pace

(2 or 3 weeks between)
Cycle 2:
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.40 holding 1.35 pace

or

Cycle 2:
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
2* (5 * 100 on 1.35 holding 1.30 pace 60' rest)

All moving towards

30*100 on 1.35 holding 1.25 pace


That said, I've never trained specifically for a 10k swim and have only had the pleasure once in training ( "good morning, please swim 10k" ) and 'raced' one last year in the U.K. But I know what each pace feels like when Im in the water and can tailor my own efforts to the distance and environment (tri or swim). Conditions can dramatically effect pace - thats why its always useful to have a platinum, gold, silver, bronze time in mind ... as long as you win it doesnt matter


oops - key point - long, slow swimming (to paraphrase seb coe) may make you a long, slow swimmer - there's also a great chance your stroke will go to sh*t as fatigue kicks in swimming 2+ hours straight ... or you'll simply grow to hate how the bottom of the pool looks and bore yourself asleep.

griffin100

interested wrote: »

considering the lad would be doing this long course in UL, say 1.45.
and an extra 60-90 between the sets.
The objective is to train the body / stroke to adapt over time to swimming at or just under the preferred / intended race pace - in a controlled environment.

The idea behind 3 sets of 10 is that - its possible to tailor the 3km swim to enable progression:
(3 sets because it should take under an hour, and make a hell of a lunch time swim - add or remove sets as required - most Ive ever done in one sitting was 60*100 on 1.15 all under 1.05 (a life time ago long course) as 12 sets of 5 desc 1-5 with 60' between each set).


For example
Cycle 1:
10 * 100 on 1.50 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.40 holding 1.35 pace

(2 or 3 weeks between)
Cycle 2:
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.40 holding 1.35 pace

or

Cycle 2:
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
10 * 100 on 1.45 holding 1.35 pace
60' Active Recovery
2* (5 * 100 on 1.35 holding 1.30 pace 60' rest)

All moving towards

30*100 on 1.35 holding 1.25 pace


That said, I've never trained specifically for a 10k swim and have only had the pleasure once in training ( "good morning, please swim 10k" ) and 'raced' one last year in the U.K. But I know what each pace feels like when Im in the water and can tailor my own efforts to the distance and environment (tri or swim). Conditions can dramatically effect pace - thats why its always useful to have a platinum, gold, silver, bronze time in mind ... as long as you win it doesnt matter


oops - key point - long, slow swimming (to paraphrase seb coe) may make you a long, slow swimmer - there's also a great chance your stroke will go to sh*t as fatigue kicks in swimming 2+ hours straight ... or you'll simply grow to hate how the bottom of the pool looks and bore yourself asleep.

Great post. If (and it's a big if) I decide to swim the Warrior Of The Sea 6km this summer I'll keep this in mind.

shotgunmcos

@interested - thanks for the tips chief. Yes I buy the perspective that long slow swimming promotes, well, slow swimming. I'm just going to keep the odd boring aerobic swim for base development or do them at 10k pace or bookend a solid 3-4k main set with technique focus. Its just getting confidence of swimming the distance. The second focus is just that strong endurance progression you listed. I'm going to push on with the odd descending set too. I like the idea of sets of 100s too...

Short tough swim
The usual 40 minute window while shotgun junior did his lesson. No torpedo tonight.
200 moderate warm up
10*100 off 1:40 in on 1:27/1:34/1:33/1:33/1:32/1:32/1:32/1:33/1:34/1:32
60 sec rest
10*100 off 1:40 in on 1:28/1:26/1:29/1:32/1:34/1:34/1:30/1:33/1:33/1:31
Total 2,200m

I'd imagine this set would be that bit easier in a group. There were other swimmers in the lane and some overtaking required. Set 1 was solid and a consistent effort. I collided heads with as guy at the start of the second set while overtaking as low back stroker. My fault but luckily he was a tank and shook it off. I did the first few reps after that with some hard last 30m to overtake quickly. I burned some matches doing so and the remainder of the session was hard work. Good session but my shoulders were on fire for a finish. Used the garmin to get some data. Avg efficiency 33.4, stroke rate 27spm, stroke length 40 per 50m.

pgibbo

Nice swimming. Any improvement on the achilles?

shotgunmcos

pgibbo wrote: »

Nice swimming. Any improvement on the achilles?

Thanks. Well today it started creaking, literally. Feels like a hinge that needs oil. Sore too. Googled and self diagnosed, backed up by a conversation with a physio friend/runner. Need to be careful. Pinned it to that Marathon run last week and the 30 hills I covered during it, too much too soon. She advised RICE, anti inflammatory, heel drop stretches on a step and back to neutral each time. No heat, no calf raises, no hill running, gentle massage, difene gel, compression and to make a smart call before or during the ultra if I need to. The basic, don't push through pain on this one. Not music to an A type personality but this is the Achilles...

Izoard

So, you still in for Donadea?

Managed a whopping 4km this morning - perfect build up....

Dory Dory

Izoard wrote: »

So, you still in for Donadea?

Managed a whopping 4km this morning - perfect build up....

If he does do Donadea, would you mind keeping an eye on everything he shovels in his mouth? In fact, could you write it all down for me? Oh, and feel free to offer him plenty of chocolate and sugary confections. Gosh...will RQ be there with her chocolate thingies she makes? :D

shotgunmcos

Izoard wrote: »

So, you still in for Donadea?

Managed a whopping 4km this morning - perfect build up....

Sweet thats nearly a whole lap. Hope you recovered well after it. Short tester run planned for this evening to make the decision, may not be a whopping 4km though Basically if it feels OK I go, if not, I stay. Simple

Izoard

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Sweet thats nearly a whole lap. Hope you recovered well after it. Short tester run planned for this evening to make the decision, may not be a whopping 4km though Basically if it feels OK I go, if not, I stay. Simple

All the best with it - hope to see you there.

RacoonQueen

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Sweet thats nearly a whole lap. Hope you recovered well after it. Short tester run planned for this evening to make the decision, may not be a whopping 4km though Basically if it feels OK I go, if not, I stay. Simple

I have two chocolate biscuit cakes made and am considering throwing some brownies together tonight after swimming. I've also heard something about a peanut butter, chocolate and rice crispie combo of some sort.

This may or may not help you make the right decision.

griffin100

Best of luck with this the weekend.......if you decide to do it.

pgibbo

griffin100 wrote: »

Best of luck with this the weekend.......if you decide to do it.

+1

BennyMul

+1 mike if are racing enjoy it. take care of the achilles.

shotgunmcos

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I have two chocolate biscuit cakes made and am considering throwing some brownies together tonight after swimming. I've also heard something about a peanut butter, chocolate and rice crispie combo of some sort.

This may or may not help you make the right decision.

Didn't get out for a test run. It feels a bit better but won't really know until I run. Regardless I'm coming up with a dozen eggs to pelt our excuse queen every lap for this taunting !!
So, dodgy Achilles
No running in 2 weeks
Back to post Christmas weight

How many laps will I last? When will I get dropped off the sub4 bus?
Realistic aim - finish.
Best case scenario - hang onto sub 4 lads until the end and finish healthy needing minimum recovery to kick into marathon mode
Worst case scenario - I've made the wrong decision and am harbouring my first real injury in years

interested

All the very best Mike - be smart about it, as you always are.

shotgunmcos

interested wrote: »

All the very best Mike - be smart about it, as you always are.

Thanks! In fairness I've made my share of Muppet calls

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Remember the A race and goal don't do anything stupid to risk it. Hopefully all goes well though and you have a blast:)

RacoonQueen

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Didn't get out for a test run. It feels a bit better but won't really know until I run. Regardless I'm coming up with a dozen eggs to pelt our excuse queen every lap for this taunting !!
So, dodgy Achilles
No running in 2 weeks
Back to post Christmas weight

How many laps will I last? When will I get dropped off the sub4 bus?
Realistic aim - finish.
Best case scenario - hang onto sub 4 lads until the end and finish healthy needing minimum recovery to kick into marathon mode
Worst case scenario - I've made the wrong decision and am harbouring my first real injury in years

You'll have to catch me first

Dory Dory

Be smart....keep everything in proper perspective. And above all, don't insult RQ by dissing her legendary slaving in the kitchen to whip up her sweet magic. Best with it...and mind the body.

shotgunmcos

Turned out to be worst case scenario. Fine posse of boardies at the start and the jolly sub4 bus left the depot and remained intact for a lap. 4 of us then pushed on including Kentucky Pete and BB67. I had plenty of energy and the legs wanted to run. The muddy hill showed up the Achilles straight away. We were tipping along nicely but the Achilles got progressively worse. It was properly hurting by lap 3. I stayed with the guys until the end of lap 4 and wished them well. Spent a while chatting to ultra man who runs a fine event, and meno, who had to drop out also. The lads passed after lap 5 working now but looking good. Others looking good. Bazman blazing a trail, marthastew in the lead with hubby chasing, Krusty and Pronator at the pointy end running side by side, RacoonQueen leading her club posse and Izoard always smiling, always the silver lining:) I left early to get home and get the swollen heel on ice.

So an injury it is. Frustrating YES. The end of the world NO. I've dropped the bike (which I like and am good at) for the last 5 months so I can pick that back up for an occasional easy spin. Thank god for swimming though, at least I can maintain some sort of fitness with that while I nurse this stupid Achilles. I know its a minimum of weeks. 2 full weeks off and It felt no better today Overall I'm having a serious rethink about long distance running. It seems to break me more often than I like :rolleyes:

Kurt Godel

shotgunmcos wrote: »

but the Achilles got progressively worse. It was properly hurting by lap 3. I stayed with the guys until the end of lap 4 and wished them well.

Hard luck Mike, you gave it a shot and thankfully did the right thing. Nothin' ventured, nothin' gained.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

So an injury it is. Frustrating YES. The end of the world NO. I've dropped the bike (which I like and am good at) for the last 5 months so I can pick that back up for an occasional easy spin. Thank god for swimming though, at least I can maintain some sort of fitness with that while I nurse this stupid Achilles. I know its a minimum of weeks. 2 full weeks off and It felt no better today Overall I'm having a serious rethink about long distance running. It seems to break me more often than I like :rolleyes:

You're too big a lad for all that distance pounding anyway;) For someone with such impressive swimming talent, this could in fact be a silver lining. Coached lessons might be the next step to some serious good times ahead.

RacoonQueen

Well done for giving it a shot Mike. I finished up on lap 6, it was tough out there today. Much tougher than last year.

Nice to meet you today.

Oryx

You're a smart cookie, dropping out. Lesser mortals might have let the race head win, and kept going. And you've got a great philosophical attitude going, which I admire. I wish you well in your rest period and recovery.

Part of the coaching series last week dealt with s&c, specific to tri, with emphasis on prehab work. Des Earls was the lecturer, smart guy. I found it fascinating. You probably have already studied this kind of thing but to me it was informative in terms of why injuries happen and how best we can try to prevent them. I mention it because I think its valuable for you (and all of us) to look into.

Dory Dory

Kurt Godel wrote: »

You're too big a lad for all that distance pounding anyway.

:eek::eek::eek:

Note to self: send Kurt a book on bedside manners.

Any way...wise move to drop out....and I admire your drive to have given it a go knowing you may not complete the task. Love your super attitude too, it will help with your recovery. (did you get your tshirt? based on Kurt's comment, I'm assuming it was an XXL. )

Kurt Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek:

Note to self: send Kurt a book on bedside manners.

Nah, I've met MCOS, and I stand by it- he's got too big a frame for distance running. I don't think lugging the weight of all those extra upper body muscles is any use for high milage, and can often lead to stress-related problems.

Of course there's exceptions to this, but in general tall, broad-shouldered, barrel-chested handsome devils should leave the distance running to the skinny malinkeys...

Izoard

Tough luck Mike - Achilles' ailments are a pain in the ar$e (well, not literally, unless they are really chronic...) - good to see you toeing the line anyways... All the best with the recovery.

Krusty_Clown

Sorry to see you knock the race on the head, but hopefully the first few laps were enjoyable and you didn't do any further damage to the Achilles. Hopefully you mend quick enough to give Limerick a proper bash (before you go back to the swimming with your big frame ).

shotgunmcos

Hence the log name

Jesus you wouldn't want to be sensitive around here!

@RC . nice to meet you too, after my piss taking you lasted longer than I
@Dory - yes got a t shirt but won't wear it as I didn't finish
@Krusty - cheers man, you had some run out there today, really well done!
@Kurt - stickin' up for us cavemen eh

Kurt has a point, I'm naturally built for throwing things more than running long distance:rolleyes: I want the sub 3 marathon but that will be enough for me. I've much more interesting things on my bucket list than that Yoga and I will become best friends for the next few weeks that's one thing I'm sure about.