Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

darkhorse

Am Chile wrote: »

Yesterday in the dail some in fine gael and labour had some words to say about the planned property tax--its good to see some of them recognize implementing property taxes may bring consequences.



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/coalition-tds-attack-unfair-tax-on-property-217085.html[/QUOTE]

It did'nt stop the spineless ba**ards voting it in, all the same. I've heard the whip system being defended from time to time. How, in the name of jebus, could a system, whereby TDs have to do the opposite(make liars of themselves, how is that a democracy)to what they told the people that voted them in, that they were going to do, be deemed to be anything other than mind controlling.
This lady:eek:says it best:

Elsewhere on this site the full text of Lucinda Creighton’s speech to Magill is produced. However, there are no comment faculties there and given the importance of some of what she said I thought I would link it here for comments. She is obviously disillusioned but makes some interesting points. In particular she points to the party whip as a real source of legislative weakness.

In Ireland, however, the most stringent form of whip, the
three line whip is imposed for every single vote. This
demonstrates to me a lack of confidence amongst political
parties. It shows an immature democracy, which urgently
needs to grow up to meet the needs of a mature people. It
also creates a fertile environment for mediocrity to flourish,
where politicians are enabled and indeed encouraged to
avoid individual accountability. The result of our entrenched
and archaic party whip system is that our politicians can
dodge personal responsibility for their own political
decisions.

But they do say that it is a woman's perogative to change her mind.

bgrizzley

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You guys realise that if you stop paying property tax you pay the same or more in income tax. there being a deficit.

What did you think we are arguing for? when this tax fails, i will have no problems paying extra income tax, multiples of the HHC if necessary(within reason of course;)).

But i will not pay a groundrent to the government and allow them that implied threat on my home if i am ever in position not to be able to afford it.

darkhorse

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Been listening to the radio today. Well, I would say the bould EG is history. Apparently, he and Keaveney hated each other ( heard it today on - I think - PK Show). But while He ( Keaveney is chairman of the LP), he's going to be a real thorn in gilmore's side. GOOD!!!

I hear ya, but just another 8 weeks after the end of this year, this shower will have secured their ministerial pension rights, which was their ultimate goal from day one. After that, all that remains for them, is to see how much more damage that they inflict on our economy, and continue where the last shower left off. I really hope that they prove me wrong, but for now I remain skeptical.

Le_Dieux

bgrizzley wrote: »

What did you think we are arguing for? when this tax fails, i will have no problems paying extra income tax, multiples of the HHC if necessary(within reason of course;)).

But i will not pay a ground rent to the government and allow them that implied threat on my home if i am ever in position not to be able to afford it.

AND the bombastic authority they gave the Revenue.

I think it was in the last thread that someone posted that they had it on good authority that the Revenue would refuse to implement this destruction of what's left of our economy, not to mention our self support. Anyone know anything on this, they still holding the same position?

One thing I would warn people: I am self employed, and the Revenue take NO prisoners!

darkhorse

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You guys realise that if you stop paying property tax you pay the same or more in income tax. there being a deficit.

Is there really a difference which box in one's payslip that this deduction is shown.

Le_Dieux

darkhorse wrote: »

I hear ya, but just another 8 weeks after the end of this year, this shower will have secured their ministerial pension rights, which was their ultimate goal from day one. After that, all that remains for them, is to see how much more damage that they inflict on our economy, and continue where the last shower left off. I really hope that they prove me wrong, but for now I remain skeptical.

Exactly my reference to this above. DISGUSTING shower!:mad:

Le_Dieux

MacGill Summer School, Glenties July 20th
2010

Standards in Public Life and Accountability

When I was a child, I had a rare and rather strange interest
in politics and all aspects of current affairs. Believe it or not,
as a child of six or seven, I was fascinated by everything to
do with the business of politics. Perhaps even more
bizarrely, I truly believed that a politician could make a
genuine difference to the country.
I grew up in the era of Garret and Charlie. To my innocent
eyes it was the personification of the battle between right
and wrong, of light versus darkness. It intrigued and
inspired me and whetted my appetite for an eventual entry
into active political engagement.
Similarly the O’Malley/Haughey dynamic within the Fianna
Fail party enthralled me. I remember watching the first
conferences of the PDs on television in 1986 and believing
that Dessie O’Malley had some profound higher calling,
based on his willingness to challenge the all-powerful
Charles J. Haughey. As a child I genuinely believed that Des
O’Malley was a true patriot – and I thought there could be
no higher aspiration than to become a politician and aim to
bring truth and honour into public life in Ireland.
Years later I look at politics in Ireland and I wonder where
and why it has all gone wrong. Miraculously, I have achieved
my childhood dream of becoming a member of the national
parliament, but my simple and definite image of the battle
between good and bad has been thwarted. The possibilities
and potential for real change which shined so brightly for me
as a child, now seem further away than ever.
The apathy amongst many politicians is palpable. The
labyrinth of bureaucracy within the political system is stifling. The lack of ambition amongst all political parties, as
well as their studious dodging of courageous political
positions leaves me cold.
The absolute and all consuming political commitment to
standing for nothing can be soul-destroying. Sameness and
uniformity are paraded by politicians and political parties as
proudly as a prize bull at the county show. Obviously I am
one of those politicians and I represent one of those parties,
which gives me some insight, and also, it is fair to say,
affords me some degree of culpability.
The objective for most politicians these days is not to break
new political ground in the pursuit of some lofty national or
public interest. No, the primary aspiration of most politicians
is conformity. With blind conformity, comes mediocrity. It is
essential, if a politician wishes to succeed – to progress
politically – that they conform to the party “line”. So the first
question must be, ‘What is the Party line?”.
Well it seems that the ‘Party Line’ is usually a hybrid entity.
It’s a bit like a hybrid car, running on two or more power
sources. It is made up of positions which emanate firstly
from paid party officials, who are generally not party
members and may have no commitment to, nor belief in,
the values upon which the party is anchored. These positions
appear on an ad hoc basis.
They are then ‘stress tested’ on cross sections of normal
people called focus groups. The party line is then tailored
according to the pronouncements of such focus groups.
Generally, experience suggests that focus groups are
resolutely in favour of motherhood and apple pie. It is fair to
conclude that focus groups generally disapprove of such
horrors as humanitarian crises, war, genocide and what is
known as fiscal rectitude or tightening the purse strings to
save for the rainy day.
Upon completion of this intensive process of policy
formulation, the party position is ultimately signed off on by
a collection of politicians known as ‘The Parliamentary Party’.
However, it is unlikely that they will see the policy in written
copy as they cannot be trusted by the beleaguered party
handlers not to leak it to the press. Having completed this
rigorous and intellectually challenging process of policy
formulation, we arrive at what is familiarly known as ‘The
Party Line’.
The role of defending and selling the Party Line, becomes
the lofty responsibility of the Party Leader and his or her
Front Bench. They must ensure that no politician think
independently, or (God forbid) assess or analyse the party
position. In most modern democracies, where a whip system
exists, the severity of the Whip imposed by a party depends
logically on how critical a parliamentary vote is to the
programme of the Government and/or the platform of the
Opposition. This is rational and good.
In Ireland, however, the most stringent form of whip, the
three line whip is imposed for every single vote. This
demonstrates to me a lack of confidence amongst political
parties. It shows an immature democracy, which urgently
needs to grow up to meet the needs of a mature people. It
also creates a fertile environment for mediocrity to flourish,
where politicians are enabled and indeed encouraged to
avoid individual accountability. The result of our entrenched
and archaic party whip system is that our politicians can
dodge personal responsibility for their own political
decisions.
For politicians with no scruples, no values and no backbone,
a political party is a wonderful hiding place. It is rare that
such a person will ever be exposed. They will never have to
defend their position or stand over their convictions. Indeed
they generally have no positions or convictions apart from a
‘win my seat at all costs’ mentality. They enjoy being shielded by the ubiquitous whip system, which gives failsafe
protection for the politically and ideologically impotent.
I do believe that almost every politician who stands for
political office does so, at least at the outset, for genuine
and worthy reasons. However, many very quickly become
part of the system, part of the club where the rules of
engagement demand blind “loyalty” and blind adherence to
the party line. This means that even when a politician
believes and knows that something being said or done by his
party is wrong, he is fearful and quite unlikely to point this
out.
This is the culture which gave us the Mahon tribunal and the
Moriarty tribunal. It is the culture which turned a blind eye
to the questionable practices of Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke,
Bertie Ahern and Michael Lowry. It is also the political ethos
which led this country into the economic morass in which we
now wallow.
What saddens and disappoints me, as someone relatively
new to the system, is that when we hear plans for political
reform, most of what is said amounts to mere window
dressing. No political party is talking about a real departure
for Irish politics. They are happier to tinker around the
edges.
Very few politicians want a radical shift from the crony
politics of the nod and the wink. Our system is rooted on
creeping, obsequious advancement and preferment. It
rewards mediocrity, a commitment not to rock the boat and
a supposed “loyalty” to the party above all else. Indeed our
abuse of the term ‘party loyalty’ would have fitted well in the
Soviet Union. Beliefs, values, principles and even loyalty to
ones country are deemed inferior to blind party loyalty.
My colleague Brian Hayes, in an interview he gave to last
Sunday’s Mail, referred to some of the problems within our own party. It takes courage and above all integrity and
honesty to face up to such challenges. It is easy and
comfortable to remain constrained by a strange pact of
silence, papering over cracks in order to avoid being labelled
a ‘dissident’ or ‘rebel’. It is easier still to brand colleagues
with such crude titles. Of course it is far more difficult to
confront shortcomings and tackle them face on.
My party, Fine Gael, and its predecessors, founded our
Republic. It is a party of great tradition and ethos and a
solid value system, which is based on the principles of
Christian Democracy. It is the party which can genuinely
transform Ireland. For that to happen, however, we must
transform ourselves and our own culture. We must ignite a
new energy and a new hunger within the party. Fine Gael
must demonstrate greater ambition for our country and
show much higher standards for our people.
That means there can be no room in Fine Gael for the cutehoor politics. These are the politics which have defined and
tainted Irish public life like an incurable cancer. We cannot
be satisfied with low standards in high places. Fine Gael in
government must be much more than simply “Fianna Fail
Light”.
We cannot, on the one hand, condemn Fianna Fail for
entertaining developers in the Galway tent, while on the
other hand extend the biscuit tin for contributions from high
profile developers, who are beholden to NAMA. The Irish
people expect more from Fine Gael; they demand more, and
they are right.
Fine Gael cannot equivocate about the standards we wish to
bring to the running of this Republic. We need a real ‘New
Politics’ – of substance rather than sound-bites. We need a
politics that is about serving the people of Ireland, and not
simply about replacing Fianna Fail. It is time for a politics
built on courage, integrity and truth.
That is the politics which I signed up for and the sort of public service which the
Irish people so desperately need.

Le_Dieux

Reading that interview, why do I get a feeling of someone making noise to decorate themselves?

REALLY hope She proves me wrong, but at this stage any 'noise of dissent' coming from the FG camp I take with a pinch of salt.

Also really písses me off EK and MN were over in Brussels in the past 3 days toeing the line, and ensuring the ECB is safe - surely ANOTHER missed opportunity to drive a 'bargain'??? And at the same time their own country is sinking! Was up the town in Newbridge today, plenty of cars around, but not much money being spent - not that anyone has any.

Anyone know the Irish for clowns?;)

Duggys Housemate

bgrizzley wrote: »

What did you think we are arguing for? when this tax fails, i will have no problems paying extra income tax, multiples of the HHC if necessary(within reason of course;)).

But i will not pay a groundrent to the government and allow them that implied threat on my home if i am ever in position not to be able to afford it.

Do you also realise that this tax is paid - disproportionately - by the wealthy. People in big houses or people will multiple houses. So you will be paying more in income tax than the rich and renter class when you abolish this tax ( which won't happen).

dxhound2005

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Do you also realise that this tax is paid - disproportionately - by the wealthy. People in big houses or people will multiple houses. So you will be paying more in income tax than the rich and renter class when you abolish this tax ( which won't happen).

Duggy is very fortunate to have a housemate so sensible as you. But two of the other people on this page have been left in a complete state of misery and destitution by being asked to pay a charge of €100 which it turns out will cover 18 months. Any reasoned argument in favour of property tax will be met with reams of irrelevant quotes and arguments usually accompanied by a string of expletives. The number of reasons put forward for not paying the charge is wide ranging the latest being the Whip system in the Dail.

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I think it was in the last thread that someone posted that they had it on good authority that the Revenue would refuse to implement this destruction of what's left of our economy, not to mention our self support. Anyone know anything on this, they still holding the same position?

Someone posted something about a branch of the Unite trades union who voted against the HHC. The main Revenue unions, the CPSU and the PSEU haven't said anything. The will implement it.

Le_Dieux wrote: »

One thing I would warn people: I am self employed, and the Revenue take NO prisoners!

Damn straight. You'll be paying up alright.

Duggys Housemate

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Duggy is very fortunate to have a housemate so sensible as you. But two of the other people on this page have been left in a complete state of misery and destitution by being asked to pay a charge of €100 which it turns out will cover 18 months. Any reasoned argument in favour of property tax will be met with reams of irrelevant quotes and arguments usually accompanied by a string of expletives. The number of reasons put forward for not paying the charge is wide ranging the latest being the Whip system in the Dail.

I have no idea what that meant. Possibly you agree. Possibly you don't.

Le_Dieux

In the meantime, we have this govt. donating €125,000 to the victims of Typhoon Bhopa.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-aid-to-go-to-typhoonhit-families-3327030.html#disqus_thread

While totally sympathising with these poor unfortnate people, where is this money coming from, I wonder? €125K is equivalent to over one sixth of the estimate number of people who never paid the HHC ( me included).

Where is this government's (?) priorities???

Chucky the tree

Le_Dieux wrote: »

In the meantime, we have this govt. donating €125,000 to the victims of Typhoon Bhopa.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-aid-to-go-to-typhoonhit-families-3327030.html#disqus_thread

While totally sympathising with these poor unfortnate people, where is this money coming from, I wonder? €125K is equivalent to over one sixth of the estimate number of people who never paid the HHC ( me included).

Where is this government's (?) priorities???

Saving lives or allowing people have a few nights out on the beer, glad the Government has it's priorities right on this one.

Le_Dieux

And while all this is going on, we have an institution of Ireland ( RTE ) sending work to FRANCE to edit their Xmas edition of the RTE Guide.

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/tv-radio/rte-guide-makes-majestic-blunder-as-queens-speech-becomes-lecture-3326657.html#disqus_thread

Makes me sick that a) an IRISH company either fully under the govt. or partially ( not sure TBH) is sending work overseas when I am certain this could have been done here & b) will the person who is handling this debacle be held accountable?

Somehow, I can guess correctly the answer to point b:rolleyes:

Ghandee

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Saving lives or allowing people have a few nights out on the beer, glad the Government has it's priorities right on this one.

Indeed.


http://i49.tinypic.com/2wclj7n.jpg

Le_Dieux

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Saving lives or allowing people have a few nights out on the beer, glad the Government has it's priorities right on this one.

Who is talking about anyone out having a few beers?

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

Indeed.


http://i49.tinypic.com/2wclj7n.jpg

This his recent jaunt where the tax payer paid for Ghandee? And the lac?

What a tool he is!

Ghandee

Le_Dieux wrote: »

This his recent jaunt where the tax payer paid for Ghandee? And the lac?

What a tool he is!

That's sugar daddy Phil with his desert orchid.

Le_Dieux

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Saving lives or allowing people have a few nights out on the beer, glad the Government has it's priorities right on this one.

Just like the 4 million quid that went missing in Uganda?

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

In the meantime, we have this govt. donating €125,000 to the victims of Typhoon Bhopa.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-aid-to-go-to-typhoonhit-families-3327030.html#disqus_thread

While totally sympathising with these poor unfortnate people, where is this money coming from, I wonder? €125K is equivalent to over one sixth of the estimate number of people who never paid the HHC ( me included).

Where is this government's (?) priorities???

Its coming from the Irish Aid budget. What exactly is your problem?

Le_Dieux

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Saving lives or allowing people have a few nights out on the beer, glad the Government has it's priorities right on this one.

And all the time while a poor soul died from hypothermia in Bray ( that we know of). Yes, while complete sympathy to the Filipino's, we MUST get OUR priorities in order...Look after our own FIRST!

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

And all the time while a poor soul died from hypothermia in Bray ( that we know of). Yes, while complete sympathy to the Filipino's, we MUST get OUR priorities in order...Look after our own FIRST!

Good grief. You begrudge emergency aid to unfortunates caught up in a natural disaster. You sympathise, but not enough to do anything about them dying before your eyes.

Despicable.

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

That's sugar daddy Phil with his desert orchid.

Wasn't Desert Orchid a horse, Gh?:D

Buford Tannen

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Do you also realise that this tax is paid - disproportionately - by the wealthy. People in big houses or people will multiple houses. So you will be paying more in income tax than the rich and renter class when you abolish this tax ( which won't happen).

So are you saying that the rich are paying a disproportionate smaller amount of tax compared to the average PAYE worker?

Is this a new first by the vested interests pro property tax brigade

Chucky the tree

Le_Dieux wrote: »

And all the time while a poor soul died from hypothermia in Bray ( that we know of). Yes, while complete sympathy to the Filipino's, we MUST get OUR priorities in order...Look after our own FIRST!

Just saw this. His own fault for not availing of the services provided.

dvpower

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Who's this?

Some homeless guy in Bray died while sleeping rough. He unfortunately didn't choose to sleep in a shelter.

The council have responded by keeping some council buildings where the homeless congregate open out of hours. God only knows where they're going to get the money for this, since so many people have decided not to pay their HHC.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Duggy is very fortunate to have a housemate so sensible as you. But two of the other people on this page have been left in a complete state of misery and destitution by being asked to pay a charge of €100 which it turns out will cover 18 months. Any reasoned argument in favour of property tax will be met with reams of irrelevant quotes and arguments usually accompanied by a string of expletives. The number of reasons put forward for not paying the charge is wide ranging the latest being the Whip system in the Dail.

No point in telling the poster half of the story. Why dont ya tell him/her how the HHC and the upcoming property tax is earmarked for services, how austerity is working, and most importantly, how a persons family home generates revenue, no matter how little its worth, or no matter how much negative equity is attached to the home, or no matter how much mortgage a person pays on their home, according to the posters advocating the payment of this charge/tax. What I can say to Duggys Housemate regarding your last comment, dx, is the context in which the relevance of the whip system was brought in, was, the fact that TDs that do not have a mind of their own, have to vote with the party leadership, (even if they think that it is wrong to do so, and it goes against everything they promised their constituents) or face being expelled, property tax being one of the items being voted on in the house recently, and this is a forum for HHC/Property tax, hence the relevance. I think the poster may be a little more enlightened.

darkhorse

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

So you will be paying more in income tax than the rich and renter class when you abolish this tax.

This part, I would be really interested in hearing an explanation for, especially as, once the property tax comes in, it will increase every year.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

This part, I would be really interested in hearing an explanation for, especially as, once the property tax comes in, it will increase every year.

Not true.
Both the valuation and the rate are frozen, for three years I believe.