Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

God only knows where they're going to get the money for this, since so many people have decided not to pay their HHC.

Ask the bondholders for the money back, that's where it went. Yer not gonna keep giving me that crap that the money that the govt. keeps extracting from the people is going to services. The only services thats its going to, is to service the bankers debts and gravy train pay and expenses, but ya know that already.

darkhorse

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Saving lives or allowing people have a few nights out on the beer, glad the Government has it's priorities right on this one.

Are you begrudging our politicians having a few beers in the subsidised dail bar?

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

Ask the bondholders for the money back

Naïve post of the thread.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Its coming from the Irish Aid budget. What exactly is your problem?

IRELAND HAS to borrow “every single penny” it spends on overseas aid and interest has to be paid on it, Minister for Trade and Development Joe Costello has said.
Speaking at the launch of Concern Worldwide’s 1,000 Days campaign, he referred to a recent Dóchas survey that found 79 per cent of Irish people believed it was important that the Government kept its promise to meet the UN target of allocating 0.7 per cent of gross national income to overseas aid by 2015.

I think that the only people with the problem is the goverment. It seems to me that its ok for them to keep promises to everyone, except their own people, who, incidently, are the ones paying.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

IRELAND HAS to borrow “every single penny” it spends on overseas aid and interest has to be paid on it, Minister for Trade and Development Joe Costello has said.
Speaking at the launch of Concern Worldwide’s 1,000 Days campaign, he referred to a recent Dóchas survey that found 79 per cent of Irish people believed it was important that the Government kept its promise to meet the UN target of allocating 0.7 per cent of gross national income to overseas aid by 2015.

I think that the only people with the problem is the goverment. It seems to me that its ok for them to keep promises to everyone, except their own people, who, incidently, are the ones paying.

I don't see the problem.
The Irish people prioritise overseas aid and the government try to maintain it.

Only the most callous would begrudge sending tents to the victims of a tropical storm in the Philippines.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Both the valuation and the rate are frozen, for three years I believe.

Yeah, I heard that too, but not from any believable source, at least not anyone with any credibility.

Ilfdlab

Everyday I see people genuinely struggling & old folks that were terrified into paying this tax to pay for Phil & his bit on the side & the other crooks to live it up - Very sad ! When is this government going to grow a pair & start looking after us the people that are actually paying our taxes !!!!

darkhorse

Ilfdlab wrote: »

Everyday I see people genuinely struggling & old folks that were terrified into paying this tax to pay for Phil & his bit on the side & the other crooks to live it up - Very sad ! When is this government going to grow a pair & start looking after us the people that are actually paying our taxes !!!!

Good question. I would like to nominate dvpower to answer this one for you.

dxhound2005

Ilfdlab wrote: »

Everyday I see people genuinely struggling & old folks that were terrified into paying this tax to pay for Phil & his bit on the side & the other crooks to live it up - Very sad ! When is this government going to grow a pair & start looking after us the people that are actually paying our taxes !!!!

How were they terrified into paying. If they are homeowners many of them will have no mortgage to pay and they don't have to pay for a TV licence either.

They would be getting €12000 a year or more in a pension (part of the €20 billion taxpayers money going on Social Welfare and not to Phil) and that would leave them better off than some working people with mortgages. To pay back €100 in a property charge shouldn't involve any element of terror.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

Good question. I would like to nominate dvpower to answer this one for you.

Ha. Probably around the time that ye all start actually paying your taxes.

Ilfdlab

They paid their taxes all their lives for what to be screwed again. So as said before if you work hard all your life you get penalised for it ? You really have to look at where all these taxes are going before you start knocking the oap's & the normal joe that are paying their taxes. I can't afford to go out for a pint anymore & I work full time - there's a pic of big Phil living it up with a Molly on his arm in a foreign country that I have paid for.....you wonder why I'm questioning where taxes are going & take up for the oap's ?

darkhorse

Ilfdlab wrote: »

Everyday I see people genuinely struggling & old folks that were terrified into paying this tax to pay for Phil & his bit on the side & the other crooks to live it up - Very sad ! When is this government going to grow a pair & start looking after us the people that are actually paying our taxes !!!!

dvpower wrote: »

Ha. Probably around the time that ye all start actually paying your taxes.

There's your answer, Ilfdlab. Ingenious.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

To pay back €100 in a property charge shouldn't involve any element of terror.

There ya go again, dx, not wanting to tell a poster the full story. The €100 is a fee that one has to pay for the privilege of getting one's name on a database, in order to make it easy for the government to be in a position to be able to locate you for the purpose of raising said registration fee into a fully fledged property tax, amount to be decided on by the homeowner, with certain conditions, on your family home. So, just to recap, in case Ilfdlab is reading this, its €100 now, it could be €500 in 2014, maybe €1000 in the next few years. In the meantime, the old folks that the poster is talking about are getting older, cost of living getting dearer, but that pension that you are talking about, dx, is not rising. Would that sound about right.

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

There ya go again, dx, not wanting to tell a poster the full story. The €100 is a fee that one has to pay for the privilege of getting one's name on a database, in order to make it easy for the government to be in a position to be able to locate you for the purpose of raising said registration fee into a fully fledged property tax, amount to be decided on by the homeowner, with certain conditions, on your family home. So, just to recap, in case Ilfdlab is reading this, its €100 now, it could be €500 in 2014, maybe €1000 in the next few years. In the meantime, the old folks that the poster is talking about are getting older, cost of living getting dearer, but that pension that you are talking about, dx, is not rising. Would that sound about right.

If you keep up the pretence that the law does not apply to you it will just mean you have to pay even more in the end.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

its €100 now, it could be €500 in 2014, maybe €1000 in the next few years.

Not true. The rates have been set for the next few years.

Ilfdlab

I'm not here to argue but to just ask exactly where are these taxes going ? If you feel you must pay them & dont question where they are going please don't push me or anybody else to do so. I won't knock you for paying, it's a personal choice. Now I'm off to bed as I'm up at 6 to work & pay my paye, USC, prsi & every other deduction that I have to pay & still have to pay bin charges & health insurance that all these taxes !

dvpower

Ilfdlab wrote: »

If you feel you must pay them & dont question where they are going please don't push me or anybody else to do so. I won't knock you for paying, it's a personal choice.

Eh, no it isn't. Its a legal requirement.

darkhorse

Le_Dieux wrote: »

One thing I would warn people: I am self employed, and the Revenue take NO prisoners!

No problem, L.D. Sure was'nt Mick Wallace self employed. Now he works for us, the biggest employer in the country, on a nice little earner too.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If you keep up the pretence that the law does not apply to you it will just mean you have to pay even more in the end.

Thats a really great response to my post, did it take long to think up.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Not true. The rates have been set for the next few years.

So ya said.

darkhorse

Ilfdlab wrote: »

I'm not here to argue but to just ask exactly where are these taxes going ? If you feel you must pay them & dont question where they are going please don't push me or anybody else to do so. I won't knock you for paying, it's a personal choice. Now I'm off to bed as I'm up at 6 to work & pay my paye, USC, prsi & every other deduction that I have to pay & still have to pay bin charges & health insurance that all these taxes !

You go ahead, my friend, I've got your back for another hour or so.

Le_Dieux

darkhorse wrote: »

No problem, L.D. Sure was'nt Mick Wallace self employed. Now he works for us, the biggest employer in the country, on a nice little earner too.

Hah DH, therein lies the crux of the matter: I'm just an average guy in the street trying to survive ( am off to work in an hour and reading here over a cup of coffee, before someone accuses me of being up half the night posting nonsense) while MW is a TD. I MUST pay my taxes, different law unto those in DE.

Ghandee

They couldnt just have told them the countries broke, and they simply didnt have the money?

Nope. They cut the respite allowance, and no doubt dipped into the HHC funds to keep the fat fattened.

Disgusting really, and also quite sneaky and underhanded.

€18m spent on increments alone amid claims 'poor, sick and elderly paying for Croke Park'

The Sunday Independent today publishes details of a €266m bonanza in pay increases, top ups, on-call and overtime payments including to middle and senior HSE staff, which it previously failed to disclose. Amid deep rancour within the Government over the €26m cuts to respite care allowances, we can disclose that this year the HSE will spend €17.6m alone on incremental pay increases to staff.

The figures have led a government member of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), Fine Gael TD Simon Harris, to state yesterday "the poor, the sick and the elderly are now paying for the retention of the Croke Park deal, which is clearly not fit for purpose".

Despite much government rhetoric that incremental pay increases are largely for lower-paid staff, we can reveal today:

621 people in the HSE who earn €70,000 or more will this year receive a pay increase of more than €1,000 each.

Worse still, documents obtained by the Sunday Independent show that, in 2012, 221 senior managers and staff who earn more than a €100,000 will be in receipt of 'increments' or length of service pay increases.

Junior doctors will share a pot of €97m in overtime payments.

Senior doctors, dentists, managers and consultants are among those receiving €81m in additional on-call payments this year.

272 staff in HSE National Corporate, including 51 earning more than €70,000, will see their salaries increase this year.

The revelations – contained in documents demanded by the PAC from the HSE and obtained by this newspaper – are likely to cause a furore among the coalition's backbenchers, after the Government had to make savage cuts to respite care and other frontline medical services.

The matter of the respite care remains a sore point for backbench government TDs and, despite a plea from Taoiseach Enda Kenny to his troops to desist from budget discussion, the matter was raised during Fine Gael's parliamentary party meeting by Mr Harris – much to the displeasure of his leader.

Speaking to the Sunday Independent, Mr Harris said: "These galling figures dispel the myth that increments are only paid to lower-wage workers.

"Any renegotiation of Croke Park must see everything be put on the table. This is disgraceful when you think of the difficult Budget we have had to put through."

The PAC demanded the figures following a series of exchanges with HSE bosses who have repeatedly refused or claimed they were unable to provide them. "Dealing with the HSE is like trying to pull blood from a stone," Mr Harris said. The HSE said in its documentation that "increments will be paid to 21,888 staff, of which 621 – or 3 per cent – of staff are in receipt of basic salaries in excess of €70,000". The documents show that consultant doctors will receive almost €1m in overtime payments this year, while nurses will receive €31m in overtime payments. In total, €168m will be paid in overtime to HSE staff.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-266m-topups-are-paid-out-to-hse-staff-3327220.html


Nice to see the Govt have their priorities in order.;)

Le_Dieux

OMG, what have we got running the country?

Seismic retributions on the way if this is the truth:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rabbitte-keep-your-nose-out-of-prom-note-rages-noonan-3327188.html#disqus_thread

Fawlty Towers is nothing compared to Kildare Street, and that is not a joke!

bgrizzley

Ghandee wrote: »

They couldnt just have told them the countries broke, and they simply didnt have the money?

Nope. They cut the respite allowance, and no doubt dipped into the HHC funds to keep the fat fattened.

Disgusting really, and also quite sneaky and underhanded.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-266m-topups-are-paid-out-to-hse-staff-3327220.html


Nice to see the Govt have their priorities in order.;)

its scary to think this shower of gombeens will be negotiating the next one (for "us" lol:rolleyes:). they will drive us into the dark ages altogether.
if they were any good they would have done this long ago



Martin was asking kenny about this in the dail but i cant make any sense of his answer, its like he was trying to avoid it or something

http://www.fiannafail.ie/media/entry/leaders-questions-19.09.12/

bgrizzley

Le_Dieux wrote: »

OMG, what have we got running the country?

Seismic retributions on the way if this is the truth:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rabbitte-keep-your-nose-out-of-prom-note-rages-noonan-3327188.html#disqus_thread

Fawlty Towers is nothing compared to Kildare Street, and that is not a joke!

At one point Mr Noonan is said to have snarled at Mr Rabbitte that the promissory note issue was "none of your business", but Mr Rabbitte is said to have declared that the issue is "fundamental to the future of the Government".



did anyone else read noonans bits in Dermot morgans voice?:D

15 secs in

Le_Dieux

bgrizzley wrote: »

At one point Mr Noonan is said to have snarled at Mr Rabbitte that the promissory note issue was "none of your business", but Mr Rabbitte is said to have declared that the issue is "fundamental to the future of the Government".



did anyone else read noonans bits in Dermot morgans voice?:D

15 secs in

Dermot Morgan - Aah, a fabulous talent sadly taken from us far too early. R.I.P. Dermot, and thanks for the laughter.

Ghandee

Stephnen Donnelly, a very intelligent, articulate guy tell's the mere mortals of this country, how and why they are about to be shafted by this property tax.

Few (even from the yes side on this thread) ever find holes in Stephens' 'venn diagrams'.

Riddled with inequalities, this proposed levy will fail even in its goal of paying for vital public services, writes Stephen Donnelly

THE property tax hit the Chamber with a bang on Friday. It won't be there long. The Government is forcing it through the Dail in just four days. The tax itself doesn't come into effect until next July, so why the rush?

Simple – they aim to quell debate. Gagging the Opposition is nothing new, but they're keen to gag their own too in this case. If Friday was anything to go by, they're right to be nervous. The Government backbenchers lined up to voice their criticism. This tax, affecting every homeowner, isn't going to get a full airing in the Dail. It's going to be quick – and it's going to be painful. So who's going to pay?

There are 1.7 million occupied houses in the State. The Government, egged on by the troika, has been eyeing the owners of these houses for some time – wondering how it can squeeze money out of them. Last year's household charge was the first attempt. It was ill-advised, poorly implemented and massively unpopular. We'll all be glad when it winks out of existence next year. But what's coming in its place? And what's so bad about it that the Government doesn't want TDs discussing it?

The Local Property Tax will apply to homeowners at 0.18 per cent of market value, and 0.25 per cent on any portion over €1m. So a house worth €300,000 will be taxed at €540 a year. It will not take account of income or ability to pay. It will not factor in negative equity, or the tens of thousands of euros paid by so many in stamp duty in recent years. It will not consider higher and lower property prices in different parts of the country. So people in Wicklow, in Dublin and other areas with higher property prices will pay multiples of what others will pay for living in exactly the same type of houses.

The proposed approach will create many inequalities. Let's take an example. Two teachers buy their first homes. One buys a three-bed semi in Roscommon in 2002. The second buys exactly the same house in Dublin in 2006. The first pays €200,000 for the house and €6,000 stamp duty. The Dublin-based teacher pays €400,000 for the house and €24,000 stamp duty. They are paid the same wage, so the one in Dublin already has a lower standard of living due to double the mortgage payments. Furthermore, the cost of providing local services in Dublin are less than they are in Roscommon.

Today, the house in Roscommon is still worth €200,000, having risen and fallen during the bubble. But the house in Dublin is now also €200,000, having halved in value. So really it's a debt of €200,000, assuming, for the sake of simplicity, that the full amount was borrowed.

Enter the property tax. Both teachers pay €360 a year – one for a house worth €200,000, the other for a debt of €200,000, having already paid €18,000 more in stamp duty. And for services which cost less to provide. Sound 'fair'?

So what is this tax? It's not a tax on wealth. If it were, the Dublin teacher would not have to pay. It's not a tax for provision of local services – if it were, the Dublin-based teacher would pay less. And if either of our teachers emigrate, as the owner of the houses, they still pay. Not the person renting the house, the one using the local services. It is not progressive. If it were, then the rate would rise further than the token jump over €1m. It's not fair. If it were, then the tens of thousands of euros paid in stamp duty would be taken into account. It's not necessarily affordable, as the ability of our teachers to pay is not considered.

And it's not required. I'm not going to bother addressing the Government's plea that the troika are making them do it. But I will address the money raised by the tax. The figure being used is €500m. But that doesn't account for reduced economic activity due to the tax (that's €500m that won't be used in the economy). Using the Government's multiplier, the net revenue take from the tax will be about €350m.

Let's put that in context. Next year's Government spending includes annual increments to public sector workers. Just taking the past four years, these amount to €700m for 2013. So the property tax will raise half the money needed for pay rises given out during an insolvency process. During Minister Noonan's opening speech he said the property tax will "pay for vital public services". So not really.

As well as those who should not pay, there is a growing number who cannot pay. July's What's Left Tracker survey by the League of Credit Unions, estimates that two in three adults now have less than €100 at the end of the month after essential bills are paid. That's before the cut to child benefit and increase in PRSI. We are told that one in 10 children in Ireland is now in food poverty. Add to that the one in five residential mortgages in arrears or being restructured. A lot of people don't have any more to give. Many of them are the same people who paid boom-time stamp duty.

So what's to be done? The Government plans to ram through the property tax next week. This should be stopped, with the Bill referred to both the Finance and Local Government committees for examination in 2013. The rate should be set by each local authority, to ensure that the minimum necessary is collected, that some don't pay multiples of what others pay due to geography lottery, and that there is a rock-solid link between the money and the services provided. The occupiers of the house should be charged, as they are the ones using the services. The net value of houses should be used – it is unconscionable to tax people in negative equity. There should be tax credits for stamp duty paid in recent years.

The Men In Charge have got this one badly wrong. Their backbenchers agree. Olivia Mitchell said: "We'll be lucky . . . to avoid a revolution." Mind you, she also said she'd vote for it. Government backbenchers often say it's better to be inside the tent, where they can influence their party leaders. This coming week we'll see what that influence is worth.

Stephen Donnelly is the independent TD for Wicklow and East Carlow

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/just-why-the-property-tax-fails-every-possible-test-of-fairness-3327087.html

Let's hear the flaws in Stephens arguments guys.........

Tell me he has it wrong.............................

Chips Lovell

I'll say one thing for Stephen Donnelly, he's a fast learner. Only two years in the Dail and, with the amount of populist bluster he's been spouting recently, he sounds like a 20 year veteran.

Still, you can't blame him. As an Independent, he's never going to be sitting in cabinet and will never have to put his money where his mouth his, so he's got nothing to lose.

What I do find intriguing is that, after more than a decade of voting for parties that subscribed to the fairytale book of economics, people are getting so excited by next fella to come along promising he can solve all our problems with a few strokes.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'll say one thing for Stephen Donnelly, he's a fast learner. Only two years in the Dail and, with the amount of populist bluster he's been spouting recently, he sounds like a 20 year veteran.

Still, you can't blame him. As an Independent, he's never going to be sitting in cabinet and will never have to put his money where his mouth his, so he's got nothing to lose.

What I do find intriguing is that, after more than a decade of voting for parties that subscribed to the fairytale book of economics, people are getting so excited by next fella to come along promising he can solve all our problems with a few strokes.

So......

Mr 'I'm not a public servant' Vlad can attack Stephen, but not his statement?

Can you point me to one particular piece of Donnellys writings that are untrue Vlad?

Go on, 'intrigue' me.