Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Bruthal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

602,000 people with nothing left after paying bills 1.8 million with €100 or less left.

It makes me wonder how much the people here who will spend twice the average of other Europeans this Christmas are splashing out.

Maybe they cancelled their sky sub

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

Is 23% a majority in FG's fantasy land?

and this one 38%

I didn't say FG had a majority, I said the polling put them in front - an entirely different thing, especially given the way that our system works, favouring larger parties.

Both Government parties have lost a bit of ground since the election, but given their huge majority in the Dail, it would take an awful lot more lost ground before any other coalition can seriously challenge them - not that there is any sign of a credible alternative on the horizon.

Slick50

In the poll – taken on Monday and Tuesday of this week – Sinn Féin’s support is up 6 points to 21, causing losses for Fine Gael (33, down 3), Labour (13, down 6) and Fianna Fáil (14, down 1).

Why are you thanking that post dv?. that shows FG/LB on 46%... that's not a majority either.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

I didn't say FG had a majority, I said the polling put them in front - an entirely different thing, especially given the way that our system works, favouring larger parties.

Both Government parties have lost a bit of ground since the election, but given their huge majority in the Dail, it would take an awful lot more lost ground before any other coalition can seriously challenge them - not that there is any sign of a credible alternative on the horizon.

That is the most unfortunate thing about the country at the moment -- no alternatives at all. Look what happened when we though we had voted in an alternative. It's like trying to spot the difference between Daz and Persil.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

Why are you thanking that post dv?. that shows FG/LB on 46%... that's not a majority either.

You don't get it.
Those figures would put them back in Government with a handsome majority.

Its seats that matter in our system, not total FP votes.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

That is the most unfortunate thing about the country at the moment -- no alternatives at all. Look what happened when we though we had voted in an alternative. It's like trying to spot the difference between Daz and Persil.

I agree. After two or three terms any Government gets stale and were going to need some viable alternatives.

dxhound2005

Slick50 wrote: »

Why are you thanking that post dv?. that shows FG/LB on 46%... that's not a majority either.

Down from 36% and 19% in the election. Judging by this thread they are complete pariahs that nobody would vote for. But then only 31% on the Poll here have paid the HHC (I notice it's creeping up) so this is not a place to expect a fair representation of national opinion. The last time there was a political poll on AH Sinn Fein got 37% making them the biggest party in the country more than 10% ahead of FG in second place. Goes to show.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

I didn't say FG had a majority, I said the polling put them in front - an entirely different thing, especially given the way that our system works, favouring larger parties.

Both Government parties have lost a bit of ground since the election, but given their huge majority in the Dail, it would take an awful lot more lost ground before any other coalition can seriously challenge them - not that there is any sign of a credible alternative on the horizon.

What you said was

Every single poll taken since the election puts FG/LAB in front.

Usually in a democracy you need a majority to be in front. Even DX's post shows that not to be the case.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

What you said wasUsually in a democracy you need a majority to be in front.

That's simply not true, certainly not of our system. You don't understand how the system works.

dxhound2005

Slick50 wrote: »

What you said wasUsually in a democracy you need a majority to be in front. Even DX's post shows that not to be the case.

In our democracy for the last forty years you need a coalition of parties. Add up FG/Labour and see how it compares with FF/SF for instance. Feel free to suggest any possible coalitions.

Slick50

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In our democracy for the last forty years you need a coalition of parties. Add up FG/Labour and see how it compares with FF/SF for instance. Feel free to suggest any possible coalitions.

How many seats does 23% equate to?

Le_Dieux

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe but at Christmas children expect things. They can't be Scrooge all the time and at least they are receiving something for their money.

As well as generating employment for the Irish public.

Slick50

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In our democracy for the last forty years you need a coalition of parties. Add up FG/Labour and see how it compares with FF/SF for instance. Feel free to suggest any possible coalitions.

Between FF/GR's and this bunch, I can see a lot more independents getting in next time round. But I think Enda can probably piss off enough people to get FF back into the driving seat of a rainbow.

This crowds days are numbered, and they know it.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

This crowds days are numbered, and they know it.

With the prospect of FF (always willing to buy support with taxpayers money), SF (fairy-tale economics) and a big bunch of Independents (always willing to sell their support) forming a rainbow, I'd say FG/LAB are bricking it.

Luckily, its not very realistic.

bgrizzley

Household charge assurances were 'a bag of porkies'

http://www.limerickpost.ie/index.php/navigation-mainmenu-30/local-news/5312-household-charge-assurances-were-a-bag-of-porkies.html

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

With the prospect of FF (always willing to buy support with taxpayers money), SF (fairy-tale economics) and a big bunch of Independents (always willing to sell their support) forming a rainbow,

Just like this bunch who sold out their own manifestos, and supporters, to declare themselves victors.

dvpower wrote: »

I'd say FG/LAB are bricking it. Luckily, its not very realistic.

Enda's too delusional to realise where he's at, but Eamon is definitely bricking it, he knows he has done for the Labour party.

Ghandee

No let up on the negative outlook in govt.

The IMF is unhappy with Finance Minister Michael Noonan’s failure to protect the poor from some cuts in this month’s Budget, the Washington-based organisation said today.

While welcoming means testing for medical cards and student grants, the International Monetary Fund said there should have been measures to protect low income groups.

The Government will have to monitor health spending carefully because it is still far from clear that Budget measures such as charging private patients for using beds in State hospitals will work, the IMF added.

It also urged “careful preparation” to ensure people here pay the property tax and warns that the Government has not yet finalised plans to shave €400m off the public sector pay bill this year and €1bn next year. The IMF’s lengthy report also highlights that Irish public sector workers are paid much more than private sector counterparts or civil servants in other countries. Low skilled public sector workers, teachers and medicinal staff are particularly well paid, the report adds

€1bn next year?

Interesting.....

The source said the new tax to replace the €100 household charge “would not be a million miles away” from the example cited in an ESRI report focusing on a tax rate in the region of €2.50 to €3 per €1,000 of house value.

A rate in this region is geared to bring in revenue of about €500 million per year. The report published in April also recommended exemptions for the low-paid..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797426.html


There you go lads, 50% right there.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

The old 'I don't have to obey the the law because someone above me in the pecking order is breaking the law' excuse.

Pathetic.


As the whinger de jour, what does Stephen Donnelly have to say on the matter? :rolleyes:

Why do ya call Stephen Donnelly a whinger? Its a genuine question.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

Why do ya call Stephen Donnelly a whinger? Its a genuine question.

Because for the last few months most of his contributions have been about complaining rather than contributing.

tayto lover

Another side of the recession, the last paragraph is indicative of the the employment and mortgage situation i'd say --

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1219/samaritans.html

Samaritans Ireland has said its volunteers are receiving longer and more intense calls, reflecting the complexity of many people's lives.
The organisation published its impact report this morning and Executive Director Suzanne Costello described 2012 as its busiest year.
Ms Costello said there has been a huge rise in the number of people contacting the organisation on a face-to-face basis.
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, she said there has been a 17% increase in the amount of people calling into its drop-in centres around the country.
She said: "Over the past three years we have seen gradual increases with the level of people connecting with the helpline services and what's particularly interesting in this report is the huge number of people contacting on a face-to-face basis.
"We have a 17% increase in that figure, so that is almost 7,000 individuals coming into our drop-in centres around the country at our 12 branches and also through our outreach branch, which is sort of a roving branch that goes around."
Ms Costello said it received over 400,000 calls in the last 12 months, a quarter of which were silent calls or calls that last less than ten seconds.
She said that when people are feeling vulnerable and stressed it can be some time before they find the courage to speak.
Ms Costello said men aged between 34 and 55 were a high-risk group that were particularly affected by the recession.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

You don't get it.
Those figures would put them back in Government with a handsome majority.

Its seats that matter in our system, not total FP votes.

Slick50 wrote:

How many seats does 23% equate to?

I'm guessing even you can't convert this into a "handsome majority"

Bruthal

tayto lover wrote: »

Another side of the recession, the last paragraph is indicative of the the employment and mortgage situation i'd say --

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1219/samaritans.html

Samaritans Ireland has said its volunteers are receiving longer and more intense calls, reflecting the complexity of many people's lives.
The organisation published its impact report this morning and Executive Director Suzanne Costello described 2012 as its busiest year.
Ms Costello said there has been a huge rise in the number of people contacting the organisation on a face-to-face basis.
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, she said there has been a 17% increase in the amount of people calling into its drop-in centres around the country.
She said: "Over the past three years we have seen gradual increases with the level of people connecting with the helpline services and what's particularly interesting in this report is the huge number of people contacting on a face-to-face basis.
"We have a 17% increase in that figure, so that is almost 7,000 individuals coming into our drop-in centres around the country at our 12 branches and also through our outreach branch, which is sort of a roving branch that goes around."
Ms Costello said it received over 400,000 calls in the last 12 months, a quarter of which were silent calls or calls that last less than ten seconds.
She said that when people are feeling vulnerable and stressed it can be some time before they find the courage to speak.
Ms Costello said men aged between 34 and 55 were a high-risk group that were particularly affected by the recession.

Some posters here should advise the samaritans. Apparently gettig rid of sky, quitting smoking, or not buying anything for the kids for christmas, makes mortgage arrears, bills and new taxes more affordable.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

I'm guessing even you can't convert this into a "handsome majority"

Listen, why don't you
a) do some research on how our system actually works
b) read the point I actually made, not one you make up

Then come back to me if you want to discuss.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

Listen, why don't you
a) do some research on how our system actually works
b) read the point I actually made, not one you make up

Then come back to me if you want to discuss.

I didn't make this up, http://www.thejournal.ie/government-satisfaction-rating-plummets-in-new-opinion-poll-423436-Apr2012/

So why not answer the question?

How many seats does 23% equate to?

The point you actually made was

dvpower wrote: »

Well then you are blind.
Every single poll taken since the election puts FG/LAB in front.

Which was wrong.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

I didn't make this up, http://www.thejournal.ie/government-satisfaction-rating-plummets-in-new-opinion-poll-423436-Apr2012/

So why not answer the question?

First, that question wasn't addressed to me.

Second, If you knew anything about our system then you know that 23% in any given constituency may or may not win you a seat.
A simple figure like this can't be used to calculate seat counts. If Independents got 23% it might translate into no seats at all. If one of the bigger parties got 23% it might translate into much more than 23% of the 166.

Have a look at the stats for the last election and you'll see big variations in outcomes across different parties in different constituencies getting that kind of FP vote.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

First, that question wasn't addressed to me.

Second, If you knew anything about our system then you know that 23% in any given constituency may or may not win you a seat.
A simple figure like this can't be used to calculate seat counts. If Independents got 23% it might translate into no seats at all. If one of the bigger parties got 23% it might translate into much more than 23% of the 166.

Have a look at the stats for the last election and you'll see big variations in outcomes across different parties in different constituencies getting that kind of FP vote.

Bluster! You are the one who started to convert percentages of electorate support into seats. You've never let a question not being specifically directed to you (which it was) stop you from addressing it before. And you know perfectly well we were discussing FG/LB levels of support. Meh!

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

Bluster! You are the one who started to convert percentages of electorate support into seats. You've never let a question not being specifically directed to you (which it was) stop you from addressing it before. And you know perfectly well we were discussing FG/LB levels of support. Meh!

I'd never simply try and convert percentages into seats - it just doesn't work that way, as I hope I've explained to you.
Which is why you need to look behind the headlines and look at the party by party and constituency by constituency breakdowns that come with these polls. Map those figures with voting patterns and you've got a fair snapshot.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Because for the last few months most of his contributions have been about complaining rather than contributing.

So, was he not elected by his costituents to do exactly what he is doing, standing up for the low and middle income earners, and people on social welfare payments, the unemployed(of which most are unemployed through no fault of their own), and the economy in general? As for your remark about him not contributing, ya lost me there, as I am sure ya lost a lot of posters.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

So, was he not elected by his costituents to do exactly what he is doing, standing up for the low and middle income earners, and people on social welfare payments, the unemployed(of which most are unemployed through no fault of their own), and the economy in general? As for your remark about him not contributing, ya lost me there, as I am sure ya lost a lot of posters.

Meh. I'm not too impressed by him. I'm sure plenty of others are.

Mind you, I don't recall his election campaign being particularly focussed on the unemployed and DSW recipients.

darkhorse

Slick50 wrote: »

You've never let a question not being specifically directed to you stop you from addressing it before.

Agree 100% with this.