Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

darkhorse

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

All of which has nothing to do with the Household Charge or Property Tax.

You're right, it really has nothing to do with HHC/Property Tax, nor did it 26 post's ago, when it was first brought up.

darkhorse

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Evidence of Sinn Fein and terrorism links is just a google away.

What are you, the other half of a tag team?

Chips Lovell

tayto lover wrote: »

I think the pro side don't like the term "Family Home Tax" because it looks bad.

I and many others consider it a "Family Home Tax" because the vast majority of the people who will end up paying it will pay it on their family home.

Either way Property or Family Home it is just not right.

I suppose we could change the name of Income Tax to Family Income Tax because, yunno, a lot of people paying have families. Better still, because its maybe not emotive enough, let's call it Taking Food From Your Children's Mouths Tax.

darkhorse wrote: »

Until the landlord has a better offer, or may want it for his/her own family/relatives, or the renter may just not be in a position to pay for it anymore, due to unforseen financial constraints, oh, I dunno, maybe like the renter losing his/her job. I've seen it happen, unfortunately. So, yes, it really does matter, unless its a LA dwelling, then I would have no hesitation in referring to it as a family home, but with a private rented accommodation, there's alway a certain unsurety, in my experience.

I know numerous people raising families in private rented accommodation. It's not that hard to do.

Qualitymark

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose we could change the name of Income Tax to Family Income Tax because, yunno, a lot of people paying have families. Better still, because its maybe not emotive enough, let's call it Taking Food From Your Children's Mouths Tax.

Income tax is correctly named; it is a tax on income. Or rather, in many cases, a tax on earnings - rental income, for instance, hasn't been taxed in the case of certain people up to now.

I know numerous people raising families in private rented accommodation. It's not that hard to do.

These too will pay the family home tax; their rents will be raised to cover the amount. This is what landlords do in Ireland. (There used to be protection for tenants until a Supreme Court decision on a constitutional case some years ago that the right to profit from private property was a right under the Constitution.)

Chips Lovell

One of the advantages of a Property Tax is that'll bring more landlord types onto Revenue's radar.

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose we could change the name of Income Tax to Family Income Tax because, yunno, a lot of people paying have families. Better still, because its maybe not emotive enough, let's call it Taking Food From Your Children's Mouths Tax.



I know numerous people raising families in private rented accommodation. It's not that hard to do.

So, I'll just take it that none of ye were interested in commenting on post 3641(or was it just too long too read). I thought you yourself might, Vlad, as you seem to be knowledgable on the subject.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

You're right, it really has nothing to do with HHC/Property Tax, nor did it 26 post's ago, when it was first brought up.

Whose been derailing the thread again?
Ghandee probably. Amiright?

Slick50

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose we could change the name of Income Tax to Family Income Tax because, yunno, a lot of people paying have families. Better still, because its maybe not emotive enough, let's call it Taking Food From Your Children's Mouths Tax.

That could work for the property tax too. Why not combine them, seeing as revenue are now being given the task of collecting it, and just call it income tax? Of course that was done already when they origionally did away with property tax.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I know numerous people raising families in private rented accommodation. It's not that hard to do.

But they could find themselves moving "home" at someone else's whim at any time.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

One of the advantages of a Property Tax is that'll bring more landlord types onto Revenue's radar.

Revenue won't have time to find errant landlords, they will be to busy seeking property tax criminals.

dvpower wrote:

I wouldn't hold someone responsible for the actions of someone they never even met,

It's a pity our masters government don't have such principles

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Whose been derailing the thread again?
Ghandee probably. Amiright?

Nope. Try again.

dxhound2005

Sligoronan wrote: »

Coming in here at the end but left the states last year and lived in a small town in NJ there and property tax on our home was $9980 for the year. We were allowed to pay it every 3 months.
Don't forget that started one day at a few hundred as well. Can't understand why we are so quite as a people to let this be shoved down our throat.

bgrizzley wrote: »

welcome to Boards Ronan! can you tell the lads what happens if you cant afford to pay that $9980?

Is he gone? I wanted to find out how much his house was valued at to be levied that much tax. And what happens when people don't pay.

Qualitymark

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Is he gone? I wanted to find out how much his house was valued at to be levied that much tax. And what happens when people don't pay.

Hint: Americans like guns.

This home tax is just another of the playful romps our masters have imposed on us. Their latest wizard wheeze is to cut the Prize Bond payouts on the bottom prizes from €75 to €50, outraging every granny in Ireland with one stroke of the pen. Oh, how they're laughing over their caviare and [corporate gift] champagne in Leinster House.

dxhound2005

Qualitymark wrote: »

The names for this tax - "Household Charge"; "Property Tax" are classic Orwellian newspeak. Especially "Property Tax", which makes it sound like a tax on wealthy developers.
This is a Family Home Tax, and should be so called.
I haven't paid it, but probably will; it's better to pay it and fight it legally than risk being knocked off your bike and killed and leaving a legal rat's nest for your heirs.

This is sensible. You can oppose government policies and you can oppose taxes but you have to obey the law. This tax is unavoidable so it has to be paid. Vote for someone who tells you they will abolish it if you feel that strongly. If enough people do the same it will be gone.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

It is. I wouldn't hold someone responsible for the actions of someone they never even met, just because they joined the same political party a few generations later.
SF are a different kettle of fish, as it has members in leadership roles who have personally been convicted of terrorist offences.

You see back then, it was morally right, fair and just to kill your neighbour. :pac:

Hypocritical to the last FG.

Qualitymark

dxhound2005 wrote: »

This is sensible. You can oppose government policies and you can oppose taxes but you have to obey the law. This tax is unavoidable so it has to be paid. Vote for someone who tells you they will abolish it if you feel that strongly. If enough people do the same it will be gone.

Er... http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/12/13/and-you-thought-you-were-cynical/

dvpower

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Is he gone? I wanted to find out how much his house was valued at to be levied that much tax. And what happens when people don't pay.

Around $500000 in NJ for that level of tax, about 40% above the state average.

If you don't pay, they take your children from you, execute them and leave their heads impailed on your railings as a warning to others. Or something.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

This is sensible. You can oppose government policies and you can oppose taxes but you have to obey the law. This tax is unavoidable so it has to be paid. Vote for someone who tells you they will abolish it if you feel that strongly. If enough people do the same it will be gone.

That won't be much solace to the folk who voted labour in for the child benefit assurances, or the labour or Frankfurt speeches....

Don't forget the not another red cent, remarks from FG.
Then again we have this beauty from Leo http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=130


Can the folk who voted this coalition info power on false election promises demand their votes back?

spikethedog

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Evidence of Sinn Fein and terrorism links is just a google away.

As is evidence of the labour/workers party, while gilmore was in either/both, and their connection to OIRA murderers, and wasn't there something about counterfeiting money too.....

Bullseye1

dxhound2005 wrote: »

This is sensible. You can oppose government policies and you can oppose taxes but you have to obey the law. This tax is unavoidable so it has to be paid. Vote for someone who tells you they will abolish it if you feel that strongly. If enough people do the same it will be gone.

You would think so but we are talking about Irish political parties here. They don't keep their promises. In fact they are better known for breaking them. Politics in this country is far from democratic. How can it be with a wip system and its almost if not impossible to remove a TD from office no matter what illegality they get up too. Where is the political change we were promised by the current government while they were out canvassing on the doorsteps suring the last general election. It is rather depressing that we have unqualified people running this country

Qualitymark

The trouble is that the politicians have become an aristocracy - an oligarchy - backed by their cadre of apparachiki, a nomenklatura that award themselves pay 10 times that of the average household. The average household income last year was €22,000. According to this http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/1027/1224325772087.html Irish Times piece, "A Dublin-based TD could have a package worth almost €200,000, including unvouched expenses and two secretaries or parliamentary assistants at a combined salary of €70,000, in the first year after election. With vouched expenses he or she could be pulling in about €210,000. If the TD lived in a far-flung district of Co Kerry, extra travel expenses would bring the figure to about €235,000 – and if the deputy were an Independent there would be €41,152 on top of that, making a total of about €276,000 before tax."
These people, at this level of pay, simply have no concept of what it is like to live on the average household income of €22,000, or, like the many, many people who have been thrown out of work with little possibility of working again through the élite's crookedness and stupidity and greed and inefficiency, on the dole of €9,700.
They continue gaily to impose taxes on the poorest and cuts on the most needy, while cleaving loyally to their peers and avoiding any possibility of having them share the burden of maintaining the State by a fairer rate of tax.
It makes no difference whether they are elected as Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour, Sinn Féin, Socialist or Independent - they are all scooping in the moolah with both hands. Not one of them understands what it is to be afraid to put the immersion on, to dread the bills landing relentlessly every month, to juggle with bill payments, paying one late to meet another. None of them know the terror of yet another new tax arriving; none of them jump awake at 4am and lie in the dark calculating and recalculating how to stretch the money.
Under this regime - the regime of FF/FG/Lab/Soc/SF alike - Ireland's Gini coefficient has gone from mid-level reasonably-okayness to one of the worst in Europe, with the inevitably linked results of societal violence, worse healthcare, ratcheting prison numbers, a falling away from third-level education, decreased skills and so on - plus a roaring increase in suicide, the disastrously-nicknamed 'financials', deaths of men crazed with worry over money.
I can't see any way out of it. While these people are able to vote their own pay rises, and while they are backed by a public service carefully kept at a level of advantage that makes it unfailingly cling to the status quo, we are fated to see them plunge Ireland into a nightmare of inequality and its associated illnesses.

Duggys Housemate

Where's the source for the 22k fugure? Seems ludicrously low.

darkhorse

Bullseye1 wrote: »

You would think so but we are talking about Irish political parties here. They don't keep their promises. In fact they are better known for breaking them. Politics in this country is far from democratic. How can it be with a wip system and its almost if not impossible to remove a TD from office no matter what illegality they get up too. Where is the political change we were promised by the current government while they were out canvassing on the doorsteps suring the last general election. It is rather depressing that we have unqualified people running this country

In the meantime, here is some good news for the pro-taxers:

THE taxman will have the power to take money out of the bank accounts of people who do not pay the new property tax, Revenue has confirmed.
And the tax officials will not have to get a court order before telling a bank to give Revenue money from the bank account of a non-compliant property taxpayer.

The new Ireland - Back to the Future.

Sligoronan

dvpower wrote: »

Around $500000 in NJ for that level of tax, about 40% above the state average.

If you don't pay, they take your children from you, execute them and leave their heads impailed on your railings as a warning to others. Or something.

House was worth 545000. But the town next to me had houses worth 300000 and they were paying 11000 a year.
No body got shot for not paying but if you missed 1 year of payments and were in arrears with your mortage it was foreclosed on you.

Duggys Housemate

Sligoronan wrote: »

House was worth 545000. But the town next to me had houses worth 300000 and they were paying 11000 a year.
No body got shot for not paying but if you missed 1 year of payments and were in arrears with your mortage it was foreclosed on you.

Thats crazy. unlikely here.

Am Chile

darkhorse wrote: »

In the meantime, here is some good news for the pro-taxers:

THE taxman will have the power to take money out of the bank accounts of people who do not pay the new property tax, Revenue has confirmed.
And the tax officials will not have to get a court order before telling a bank to give Revenue money from the bank account of a non-compliant property taxpayer.

The new Ireland - Back to the Future.

My Suggestions (1) would be for people to withdraw all their savings/fund from their bank accounts/credit union accounts and lodge those savings into offshore accounts--(2) in the new year someone could set up a facebook page to organise for people to withdraw all their funds and savings from the banks/credit unions over a gradual period of time in the next few months- to organise a run on financial institutions in Ireland--if an organised run were to take place they would have a different change of tune with their bullyboy tactics--I don,t know about most non payers on here--But I sure plan to withdraw all my savings in the new year and lodge them into an offshore account.

https://www.cimbanque.com/en/HomeBanking/OpenaBankAccount.aspx?gclid=CI_x49n1rLQCFbE92wod4iwAKA

http://www.danskebank.ie/en-ie/Personal/Pages/waystobank.aspx

darkhorse

Am Chile wrote: »

My Suggestions (1) would be for people to withdraw all their savings/fund from their bank accounts/credit union accounts and lodge those savings into offshore accounts--(2) in the new year someone could set up a facebook page to organise for people to withdraw all their funds and savings from the banks/credit unions over a gradual period of time in the next few months- to organise a run on financial institutions in Ireland--if an organised run were to take place they would have a different change of tune with their bullyboy tactics--I don,t know about most non payers on here--But I sure plan to withdraw all my savings in the new year and lodge them into an offshore account.

https://www.cimbanque.com/en/HomeBanking/OpenaBankAccount.aspx?gclid=CI_x49n1rLQCFbE92wod4iwAKA

http://www.danskebank.ie/en-ie/Personal/Pages/waystobank.aspx

I agree with you 100%, A.C. If only all the people in this country would stick together, instead of always leaving up to a half of 1% of the population.

Duggys Housemate

A note on the semantics. The property tax is a property tax. Its on all houses owned by landlords, and on owner occupied premises. A rich man with 10 properties pays more than a poorer man with one.

The income tax is however, misnamed. It is a wage tax.

Am Chile

darkhorse wrote: »

I agree with you 100%, A.C. If only all the people in this country would stick together, instead of always leaving up to a half of 1% of the population.

Most of the 700.000 that boycotted the household charge this year, never attended any public meetings, never attended any local protests or national protests--while it was all good just passively boycotting staying at home,if people are serious about getting it overturned--I say to people here who passively boycotted the household charge, in the new year there will be many public meetings on the property tax by Sinn fein, and the anti property tax campaign, do your best to attend as many public meetings as possbile, any ideas you have put them forward at these public meetings, and try to attend any local and national protests next year.

Qualitymark

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Where's the source for the 22k fugure? Seems ludicrously low.

This is from last year's Irish Times, and the figure is from 2010; the average has certainly declined since then:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1201/1224308419162.html
Thu 12 Dec 2011
Average income declines by 5%
THE AVERAGE household income was €22,168 last year, according to the Central Statistics Office. This represented a decline of 5 per cent on 2009 and was a slightly larger decline than between 2008 and 2009.

Ludicrously low, you say. Interesting choice of descriptor.

This seems to be the original report:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/silc/2010/prelimsilc_2010.pdf

Summary of main findings
l Average annual equivalised disposable income (i.e. household income adjusted for household composition) in 2010 was €22,168, a drop of 5.0% on the 2009 figure of €23,326.

Am Chile, your suggestion that everyone should withdraw their savings in protest is interesting; however, to do this effectively as a form of civil disobedience, it needs to be done simultaneously, and with worldwide publicity. For instance, if there was a mass cashing-in of Prize Bonds on St Patrick's Day (or in the week before it), this represents 1% of government debt. (And in another swipe at the poor, the most typical owners of Prize Bonds, the payouts on these draws have been slashed from €75 to €50 and pro rata for the lower prizes.)

Duggys Housemate

Qualitymark wrote: »

Income tax is correctly named; it is a tax on income. Or rather, in many cases, a tax on earnings - rental income, for instance, hasn't been taxed in the case of certain people up to now.



These too will pay the family home tax; their rents will be raised to cover the amount. This is what landlords do in Ireland. (There used to be protection for tenants until a Supreme Court decision on a constitutional case some years ago that the right to profit from private property was a right under the Constitution.)

Qualitymark wrote: »

This is from last year's Irish Times, and the figure is from 2010; the average has certainly declined since then:



Ludicrously low, you say. Interesting choice of descriptor.

That was fire walled, got the CSO link?

the average industrial wage is from here

€36134.8

And there are many dual income houses.Of course pensioners - though not all - and social welfare recipients reduce the average - it still doesnt add up.

Are you looking at household disposable income? Income after taxes and rent/mortgage?

Edit: yes you were. Disposable income after rent or mortgage is quite high if it is 20K. Also, its probably the same across classes. Do you think that someone on 60K who is single is well off? Well after taxes he has about 40K, and lets say a big old boom time mortgage of 18k a year, that leaves him with the average of 22K.


Thats what you got after necessities of tax, and rent/mortgage. 22K - almost 2K a month. No poverty on average there.

Qualitymark

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

No poverty on average there.

If €22,000 represents no poverty, perhaps this is the correct rate to set for politicians' and civil servants' household income too?