Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Duggys Housemate

Qualitymark wrote: »

If €22,000 represents no poverty, perhaps this is the correct rate to set for politicians' and civil servants' household income too?

Maybe it is, if they have a big mortgage. 2k disposable per month is not poor.

Also it is DISPOSABLE income, not household income. That sounds like a household wage. I could easily fashion scenarios where people on 60,70,80k wages are disposable income "poor" - by your definition - by giving them a big mortgage, or two.

Qualitymark

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Maybe it is, if they have a big mortgage. 2k disposable per month is not poor.

Also it is DISPOSABLE income, not household income. That sounds like a household wage. I could easily fashion scenarios where people on 60,70,80k wages are disposable income "poor" - by your definition - by giving them a big mortgage, or two.

The CSO figure refers to *household* income, in other words, the combined income of everyone in the household:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/rel...msilc_2010.pdf

Summary of main findings
l Average annual equivalised disposable income (i.e. household income adjusted for household composition) in 2010 was €22,168, a drop of 5.0% on the 2009 figure of €23,326.

Incidentally, you're misquoting me there by claiming I called €22,000 poor.

Duggys Housemate

Qualitymark wrote: »

The CSO figure refers to *household* income, in other words, the combined income of everyone in the household:

And what has that got to do with anything? A household can be of any size, or have any number of income sources. This is "disposable" income. Income after taxes and rent/mortgage. Remember the poor Garda sergeant. He probably had less disposable than 22k on his gross of 70k because he had a large mortgage.

But he wasnt poor.

(Do I have to explain what diposable means in every single reply?)

Qualitymark

Average household means that households of all sizes are included, from a single person with a huge income to an extended family of grandparents, children and grandchildren who have lost their work.

Le_Dieux

Qualitymark wrote: »

Hint: Americans like guns.

This home tax is just another of the playful romps our masters have imposed on us. Their latest wizard wheeze is to cut the Prize Bond payouts on the bottom prizes from €75 to €50, outraging every granny in Ireland with one stroke of the pen. Oh, how they're laughing over their caviare and [corporate gift] champagne in Leinster House.

Heard Pat Kenny interview a German reporter for a insight to Merkel. Turns out She loves texting, does Her own shopping in Her own supermarket, with no bodyguard. Apparently She is very frugal with money.

Here, there is a guard on sentry duty all the time ( waste of sources), while the masters are inside eating and drinking on the tax-payers expense. They ( our masters/govt) want us to pay a tax that is TOTALLY unaffordable ( for me anyhow), while they rub our faces in it? Is it any wonder Gilmore's 08 Beemer was attacked in Ballyfermot, while dear oul Phil was off using taxpayers money to pay for a round of drinks ( just to use 2 examples )?

Sadly, WE DESERVE everything we get, if we continue putting up with this crap.

Bullseye1

darkhorse wrote: »

In the meantime, here is some good news for the pro-taxers:

THE taxman will have the power to take money out of the bank accounts of people who do not pay the new property tax, Revenue has confirmed.
And the tax officials will not have to get a court order before telling a bank to give Revenue money from the bank account of a non-compliant property taxpayer.

The new Ireland - Back to the Future.

Government has already robbed money out of private pension funds. We are already on a slippery slop and the yes side see no issues with it.

Le_Dieux

Bullseye1 wrote: »

You would think so but we are talking about Irish political parties here. They don't keep their promises. In fact they are better known for breaking them. Politics in this country is far from democratic. How can it be with a wip system and its almost if not impossible to remove a TD from office no matter what illegality they get up too. Where is the political change we were promised by the current government while they were out canvassing on the doorsteps suring the last general election. It is rather depressing that we have unqualified people running this country

What depresses me is that (looking on the other side of the fence) we just DON'T have political leaders on the horizon!

Qualitymark

What a pity Irish politicians have, as is their custom, aped the British approach. If they had taken the Icelandic approach, we'd be out of trouble

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-20/icelandic-anger-brings-record-debt-relief-in-best-crisis-recovery-story.html

Icelandic Anger Brings Debt Forgiveness in Best Recovery Story
By Omar R. Valdimarsson - Feb 19, 2012
Icelanders who pelted parliament with rocks in 2009 demanding their leaders and bankers answer for the country’s economic and financial collapse are reaping the benefits of their anger.

Since the end of 2008, the island’s banks have forgiven loans equivalent to 13 percent of gross domestic product, easing the debt burdens of more than a quarter of the population, according to a report published this month by the Icelandic Financial Services Association.

“You could safely say that Iceland holds the world record in household debt relief,” said Lars Christensen, chief emerging markets economist at Danske Bank A/S in Copenhagen. “Iceland followed the textbook example of what is required in a crisis. Any economist would agree with that.”

The island’s steps to resurrect itself since 2008, when its banks defaulted on $85 billion, are proving effective. Iceland’s economy will this year outgrow the euro area and the developed world on average, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development estimates. It costs about the same to insure against an Icelandic default as it does to guard against a credit event in Belgium. Most polls now show Icelanders don’t want to join the European Union, where the debt crisis is in its third year.

The island’s households were helped by an agreement between the government and the banks, which are still partly controlled by the state, to forgive debt exceeding 110 percent of home values. On top of that, a Supreme Court ruling in June 2010 found loans indexed to foreign currencies were illegal, meaning households no longer need to cover krona losses.

Crisis Lessons

“The lesson to be learned from Iceland’s crisis is that if other countries think it’s necessary to write down debts, they should look at how successful the 110 percent agreement was here,” said Thorolfur Matthiasson, an economics professor at the University of Iceland in Reykjavik, in an interview. “It’s the broadest agreement that’s been undertaken.”

Without the relief, homeowners would have buckled under the weight of their loans after the ratio of debt to incomes surged to 240 percent in 2008, Matthiasson said.

Iceland’s $13 billion economy, which shrank 6.7 percent in 2009, grew 2.9 percent last year and will expand 2.4 percent this year and next, the Paris-based OECD estimates. The euro area will grow 0.2 percent this year and the OECD area will expand 1.6 percent, according to November estimates.

Housing, measured as a subcomponent in the consumer price index, is now only about 3 percent below values in September 2008, just before the collapse. Fitch Ratings last week raised Iceland to investment grade, with a stable outlook, and said the island’s “unorthodox crisis policy response has succeeded.”

People Vs Markets

Iceland’s approach to dealing with the meltdown has put the needs of its population ahead of the markets at every turn.

Once it became clear back in October 2008 that the island’s banks were beyond saving, the government stepped in, ring-fenced the domestic accounts, and left international creditors in the lurch. The central bank imposed capital controls to halt the ensuing sell-off of the krona and new state-controlled banks were created from the remnants of the lenders that failed.

Activists say the banks should go even further in their debt relief. Andrea J. Olafsdottir, chairman of the Icelandic Homes Coalition, said she doubts the numbers provided by the banks are reliable.

“There are indications that some of the financial institutions in question haven’t lost a penny with the measures that they’ve undertaken,” she said.

Fresh Demands

According to Kristjan Kristjansson, a spokesman for Landsbankinn hf, the amount written off by the banks is probably larger than the 196.4 billion kronur ($1.6 billion) that the Financial Services Association estimates, since that figure only includes debt relief required by the courts or the government.

“There are still a lot of people facing difficulties; at the same time there are a lot of people doing fine,” Kristjansson said. “It’s nearly impossible to say when enough is enough; alongside every measure that is taken, there are fresh demands for further action.”

As a precursor to the global Occupy Wall Street movement and austerity protests across Europe, Icelanders took to the streets after the economic collapse in 2008. Protests escalated in early 2009, forcing police to use teargas to disperse crowds throwing rocks at parliament and the offices of then Prime Minister Geir Haarde. Parliament is still deciding whether to press ahead with an indictment that was brought against him in September 2009 for his role in the crisis.

A new coalition, led by Social Democrat Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir, was voted into office in early 2009. The authorities are now investigating most of the main protagonists of the banking meltdown.

Legal Aftermath

Iceland’s special prosecutor has said it may indict as many as 90 people, while more than 200, including the former chief executives at the three biggest banks, face criminal charges.

Larus Welding, the former CEO of Glitnir Bank hf, once Iceland’s second biggest, was indicted in December for granting illegal loans and is now waiting to stand trial. The former CEO of Landsbanki Islands hf, Sigurjon Arnason, has endured stints of solitary confinement as his criminal investigation continues.

That compares with the U.S., where no top bank executives have faced criminal prosecution for their roles in the subprime mortgage meltdown. The Securities and Exchange Commission said last year it had sanctioned 39 senior officers for conduct related to the housing market meltdown.

The U.S. subprime crisis sent home prices plunging 33 percent from a 2006 peak. While households there don’t face the same degree of debt relief as that pushed through in Iceland, President Barack Obama this month proposed plans to expand loan modifications, including some principal reductions.

According to Christensen at Danske Bank, “the bottom line is that if households are insolvent, then the banks just have to go along with it, regardless of the interests of the banks.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Omar R. Valdimarsson in Reykjavik valdimarsson@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Jonas Bergman at jbergman@bloomberg.net

®2012 BLOOMBERG L.P. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

dvpower

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Also it is DISPOSABLE income, not household income.

I think you're right there. The last figures I saw put Ireland in the top 10 in the world. The figures were quite old so were sure to have drooped a few places since then.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Government has already robbed money out of private pension funds. We are already on a slippery slop and the yes side see no issues with it.

The Revenue are simply taking money that people are robbing from the state by refusing to pay their lawful taxes.
Its the slippery slope when you allow thieves simply get away with it.

bgrizzley

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Thats crazy. unlikely here.

unlikely???

they've just given revenue free rein to access to your bank over E100???????

these guys wrote the book on sledgehammers cracking nuts...

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

these guys wrote the book on sledgehammers cracking nuts...

The nuts were starting to get uppity.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

The Revenue are simply taking money that people are robbing from the state by refusing to pay their lawful taxes.
Its the slippery slope when you allow thieves simply get away with it.

It won't happen, and if it does, at a simple phone call I'll switch where my earnings are taxed and which account they are paid into.

First trust / AIB, makes no difference to me, I've been resenting USC now for a while anyway.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

It won't happen, and if it does, at a simple phone call I'll switch where my earnings are taxed and which account they are paid into.

First trust / AIB, makes no difference to me, I've been resenting USC now for a while anyway.

It easy for some people to put their income offshore (you, and the Quinns of this world). Not an available option for most.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

I think you're right there. The last figures I saw put Ireland in the top 10 in the world. The figures were quite old so were sure to have drooped a few places since then.

This is what happens in the real world DV.

IT is the side of the recession that is seldom seen.

Wrapped up against the cold, several hundred people queued long before dawn to get food for Christmas. In all, 3,000 food parcels were given out to the needy at the Capuchin Day Centre in Dublin.

From 7am yesterday, a line started to form down Bow Street, wrapping around the corner on to the next road. "Nobody will go away empty-handed today," said centre manager Alan Bailey.

Inside the centre's dining hall, which feeds several hundred people each day, were two lines of tables and behind them a mountain of parcels.

Each person received one bag with chicken, rashers, sausages and milk, and another bag holding bread, butter, tea, sugar, beans, pasta and soup. A team of volunteers ensured an efficient service and the crowds were kept moving in one door and out another in a steady flow.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-queue-before-dawn-for-food-parcels-3333988.html

Meanwhile, over in the fairytale world of politicians, this is happening.

MORE than half of TDs, ministers and senators who had their expenses audited last year were unable to provide evidence that all of the money was spent correctly.

Seven members of the Oireachtas have been forced to return a total of more than €16,000 after they failed to properly account for the expenditure.

It was the result of a random external "sample" audit by consultancy firm Mazars of expenses for 12 members from January to December last year.

The revelation has fuelled calls by one audited member for a full review because a majority of those audited had to refund some of their expenses.

Of those audited, Fine Gael TD Derek Keating returned the most after it was found that €7,571 worth of his claims were ineligible. The report showed that he had claimed €13,420 correctly.
Mr Keating said he published all expenditure on his website. He said he accepted the findings, but his interpretation of what was allowed under the scheme was different to the auditor.

Next was fellow Fine Gael TD Ray Butler, who was unable to provide receipts or documentation to show that €4,923.69 was claimed correctly.

Guidelines The audit found that he had correctly vouched for €16,210 paid to him by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. A spokesperson for Mr Butler said that as a new TD he didn't completely understand the guidelines, but that he held his hands up and repaid the money. She said that the guidelines for expenses should be clarified.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/politicians-hand-back-16000-after-random-expenses-audit-3334029.html

How the hell would any FG TD understand what poverty is when they live in an insulated fairytale world like that?

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

It easy for some people to put their income offshore (you, and the Quinns of this world). Not an available option for most.

You might wanna get out your atlas.

County Derrry ain't exactly 'offshore'.

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

It won't happen, and if it does, at a simple phone call I'll switch where my earnings are taxed and which account they are paid into.

First trust / AIB, makes no difference to me, I've been resenting USC now for a while anyway.

I ignore anything dvpower writes. Alas some ( their right) copy and paste to highllight their argument.

I new see, because I have not paid the HHC, I am being branded a robber. I ask Mods to act on this. dvpower has IMHO overstepped the mark here. He/she has a right to argue for the payment, but to go calling people robbers just because they make a stand?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

This is what happens in the real world DV.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-queue-before-dawn-for-food-parcels-3333988.html

Meanwhile, over in the fairytale world of politicians, this is happening.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/politicians-hand-back-16000-after-random-expenses-audit-3334029.html

How the hell would any FG TD understand what poverty is when they live in that insulated fairytale world like that?

Ghandee the gymnast.

You pivot so gracefully from Household Income Statistics to TDs expense claims.

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

This is what happens in the real world DV.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-queue-before-dawn-for-food-parcels-3333988.html

Meanwhile, over in the fairytale world of politicians, this is happening.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/politicians-hand-back-16000-after-random-expenses-audit-3334029.html

How the hell would any FG TD understand what poverty is when they live in an insulated fairytale world like that?

Truly shocking and disgusting. And remember we have a td(???) down in Wexford who owes Revenue millions, and comes on public radio this week making serious accusations about the LAW (I'm not saying he's right or wrong, just WHO is making the allegations)?

Cross the gates in DE...and welcome to FANTASY LAND. I was never a revolutionary, but seriously, SOMETHING has to give if they want the public ( who pay their totally overinflated salaries and perks) to co-operate and get this Country moving again.

Let's start with the BS promises they made to get elected...Quangos, senate, perks, salaries etc!!!

Personally, I have lost ALL respect for ANYTHING Labour stands for. I never expected anything else from FG, so they are just keeping up their 'standards'.

Ghandee

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I ignore anything dvpower writes. Alas some ( their right) copy and paste to highllight their argument.

I new see, because I have not paid the HHC, I am being branded a robber. I ask Mods to act on this. dvpower has IMHO overstepped the mark here. He/she has a right to argue for the payment, but to go calling people robbers just because they make a stand?

To call people robbers, while the party he repeatedly pledges allegiance to, sees its TDS named for inappropriately claiming expenses (up to 16k) its clear to see who is robbing the coffers.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

You might wanna get out your atlas.

County Derrry ain't exactly 'offshore'.

No need for an atlas; it wasn't a geographical term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offshore_bank

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

To call people robbers, while the party he repeatedly pledges allegiance to, sees its TDS named for inappropriately claiming expenses (up to 16k) its clear to see who is robbing the coffers.

How DARE you call FG robbers. I DEMAND moderator action NOW.

(not really)

Le_Dieux

While JR tries to defend His cutting and slashing of the HSE, along comes this report which is a real slap in the face (am copying and pasting the report, in case anyone who is of another persuasion, just ignores the link):

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-staff-share-in-increments-worth-17m-3334012.html

HSE staff share in increments worth €17m

MORE than 221 health staff earning €100,000 or more received average increments of around €2,270 this year, writes Eilish O'Regan.
The 221 staff are among 21,888 Health Service Executive (HSE) workers who shared in €17m of increments this year.
The figures, provided to the Dail Committee on Public Accounts, showed that €1m of the increments was paid to staff with salaries of over €70,000.
Meanwhile, the HSE also revealed that it paid out a massive €55m in travel and subsistence expenses to nearly 29,000 staff last year.
A total of €55.32m was paid out in 2011 in travel and subsistence allowances to 28,983 staff.
Paramedical and nursing staff got the biggest slice at €13m and €12m.
The HSE said staff who were required to travel on official business away from their headquarters, and employees assigned to field duties, were paid travel and subsistence rates approved by the Department of Health.
The expenses must have been incurred "wholly exclusively and necessarily" in the performance of their duties of employment.

Irish Independent

Le_Dieux

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/medical-giant-abbott-has-profits-of-11bn-but-pays-nothing-in-tax-3333977.html

Medical giant Abbott has profits of €1.1bn but pays nothing in tax


PROFITS at the main Irish arm of medical products giant Abbott increased more than four-fold to €1.1bn last year, but the company still paid no corporation tax.

New figures show Abbott Laboratories Vascular Enterprises (ALVE) recorded the sharp increase in profits through €716.9m in dividend income received mainly from two Irish subsidiaries as well as net royalty income totalling €374.3m.

But the figures also show that the firm, which employs 228 people in Ireland, paid no corporation tax on its €1.1bn profits last year.

Accounts filed with the Companies Office point out that Abbott would have been liable to pay €139m in Irish corporation tax based on the 12.5pc rate.

However, thanks to items exempt from the tax that totalled €139m, the charge was zero.

The main activities of the firm are the distribution of medical and nutritional products, investment holding and undertaking research and development.

Accounts show revenues increased 2pc to €264.8m. Key figures include:

? The cost of sales jumped to €271.5m in the year to the end of December 2011.

? A gross loss of €6.6m was recorded compared with €7.2m in 2010.

? Net royalty totalling €374m and dividend income of €716.9m resulted in the €1.1bn pre-tax profit.

? The firm's R&D spend last year totalled €161m.

According to the directors' report, they "anticipate the company's trading position will continue to improve".

Abbott is a global healthcare company involved in the discovery, development, manufacture and marketing of pharma- ceuticals and medical products, including nutritionals, devices and diagnostics.

It employs around 91,000 people worldwide and markets its products in more than 130 countries.

In Ireland it has manufacturing facilities in Clonmel, Cootehill, Cork, Donegal, Longford and Sligo and a third-party manufacturing management operation in Sligo.

Figures show that the numbers employed by the firm here last year increased by 51 to 228, with 172 involved in production, 28 in administration and 28 in research and development.

The company's wage bill, including executive directors, increased to €17.8m from €12.3m.

Abbott paid no dividend last year, with the company having €2.4bn in accumulated profits with total shareholder funds amounting to €3.7bn.

The firm established its first commercial operation in Dublin in 1946, and its first manufacturing facility in Ballytivnan in Sligo.

- Gordon Deegan

Irish Independent

dvpower

No need to buy a newspaper this morning. It'll be posted wholesale into this thread by lunchtime.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Ghandee the gymnast.

You pivot so gracefully from Household Income Statistics

I only reposnded to you when you said this.

dvpower wrote: »

I think you're right there. The last figures I saw put Ireland in the top 10 in the world. The figures were quite old so were sure to have drooped a few places since then.

And as for this part:

dvpower wrote: »

to TDs expense claims.

I thought it was, ya know, relevent to point out who exactly is robbing the states coffers, and misusing tax payers money.

dvpower wrote: »

The Revenue are simply taking money that people are robbing from the state by refusing to pay their lawful taxes.
Its the slippery slope when you allow thieves simply get away with it.

Indeed it is DV, did no one ever tell your buddies in The Dail not tot bite the hand that feeds them?

Of those audited, Fine Gael TD Derek Keating returned the most after it was found that €7,571 worth of his claims were ineligible.

The report showed that he had claimed €13,420 correctly.

Mr Keating said he published all expenditure on his website. He said he accepted the findings, but his interpretation of what was allowed under the scheme was different to the auditor.

Next was fellow Fine Gael TD Ray Butler, who was unable to provide receipts or documentation to show that €4,923.69 was claimed correctly.

Guidelines

The audit found that he had correctly vouched for €16,210 paid to him by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission.

A spokesperson for Mr Butler said that as a new TD he didn't completely understand the guidelines, but that he held his hands up and repaid the money. She said that the guidelines for expenses should be clarified.

The report found that Labour TD Ciaran Lynch had to repay €1,316, but correctly vouched for €22,527, while Fine Gael TD Joe O'Reilly returned €1,400 and legitimately claimed €22,643.

:eek: He 'legitimately' claimed (in expenses) what some lucky people earn in a single year (BEFORE TAX)

The country is fcuked.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Indeed it is DV, did no one ever tell your buddies in The Dail not tot bite the hand that feeds them?
.

The information you posted was a report of external auditors telling us and them that their claims were incorrect, so I'd say the answer to that is Yes.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

The information you posted was a report of external auditors telling us and them that their claims were incorrect, so I'd say the answer to that is Yes.

Do you think it was a simple 'mistake' or were they perhaps, an attempt at fraudulent claims?

(I note you havent criticized them as of yet):cool:

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Do you think it was a simple 'mistake' or were they perhaps, an attempt at fraudulent claims?

(I note you havent criticized them as of yet):cool:

No idea.
What did the report find?

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

I only reposnded to you when you said this.




And as for this part:



I thought it was, ya know, relevent to point out who exactly is robbing the states coffers, and misusing tax payers money.




Indeed it is DV, did no one ever tell your buddies in The Dail not tot bite the hand that feeds them?



:eek: He 'legitimately' claimed (in expenses) what some lucky people earn in a single year (BEFORE TAX)

Double his EXPENSES, and that's more than I paid myself this year. And to meet my VAT committments, I paid myself no salary for December. I'm not looking for plaudits...though one would be nice from the damn govt.... just highlighting the REAL world out there, FAR BEYOND the world these so-called humans live in. Don't get me wrong, it's not just this lot, BA has certainly a LOT to answer for, but the fact he's gallivanting around the world doing his thing is a total indictment on where this country is today!!!

The country is fcuked.

So true Ghandee, so damn true. But ( again) I have to say, do the 'people' in DE know this? Somehow, I don't think so.:mad: