Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

You cant see any hypocrisy in saying Enda cant change his morals but its fine for you to do so?

But I haven't changed my morals?

What do you think I've changed my morals on?

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

But I haven't changed my morals?

What do you think I've changed my morals on?

Are you saying that you will be paying the Property tax when liable for it?

Bear in mind now you said its your moral duty to pay your taxes.

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

Are you saying that you will be paying the Property tax when liable for it?

nope.

Nor will I pay any fines the revenue attempt to place on me either. You might want to sit down and prepare yourself for this one Donal.

Some folk can't be threatened and bullied by an unfair regime, masquerading as a govt.

donalg1 wrote: »

Bear in mind now you said its your moral duty to pay your taxes.

Are you pretending to be stupid now, because I know you aren't.

What part of this don't you understand:

I pay all my taxes, I'm a tax compliant citizen. however I won't pay An immoral tax to live in my own, privately paid for and privately maintained home.

Come back to me about what part you're unclear on here and I'll run through it with you.

Its quite simple to me though.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

nope.

Nor will I pay any fines the revenue attempt to place on me either. You might want to sit down and prepare yourself for this one Donal.

Some folk can't be threatened and bullied by an unfair regime, masquerading as a govt.



Are you pretending to be stupid now, because I know you aren't.

What part of this don't you understand:



Come back to me about what part you're unclear on here and I'll run through it with you.

Its quite simple to me though.

Sorry Ghandee, but saying its your moral duty to pay your taxes, and then saying you arent going to pay a certain tax smacks of hypocrisy no matter what way you try and sugar coat it.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Sorry Ghandee, but saying its your moral duty to pay your taxes, and then saying you arent going to pay a certain tax smacks of hypocrisy no matter what way you try and sugar coat it.

Feeling you have a moral duty to pay taxes, does not mean you are hypocritical when you dont have unlimited boundaries.

Robbie7730

donalg1

Bruthal wrote: »

Feeling you have a moral duty to pay taxes, does not mean you are hypocritical when you dont have unlimited boundaries.

Robbie7730

You become a hypocrite when you say others have cant change thier views over time.

Saying one person cant do something and then doing the very thing yourself makes you a hypocrite.

**/ Wikipedia **/

Hypocrisy -
Hypocrisy is the state of promoting or administering virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have and is also guilty of violating.[1]

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

You become a hypocrite when you say others have cant change thier views over time.

Saying one person cant do something and then doing the very thing yourself makes you a hypocrite.

**/ Wikipedia **/

Hypocrisy -
Hypocrisy is the state of promoting or administering virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have and is also guilty of violating.[1]

You're clearly dillusional now Donal...

You become a hypocrite when you say others have cant change thier views over time.

And, Ghandee has changed his moral stance on what exactly? (Over time)

bgrizzley

donalg1 wrote: »

You become a hypocrite when you say others have cant change thier views over time.

Saying one person cant do something and then doing the very thing yourself makes you a hypocrite.

**/ Wikipedia **/

Hypocrisy -
Hypocrisy is the state of promoting or administering virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have and is also guilty of violating.[1]

So you are saying not paying the HHC is virtuous and principled?
Why, thank you Donal;)

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

You're clearly dillusional now Donal...



And, Ghandee has changed his moral stance on what exactly? (Over time)

Well lets see its your moral duty to pay your taxes now, however, over time when you become liable to pay the property tax you will be changing your moral stance on it being your duty to pay your taxes.

You cant say Enda is unable to change his views if you are going to change yours too. Again no matter how you try sugar coat it or get out of it, it smacks of hypocrisy. I for one couldnt care less Ghandee what you do or dont do with your money, but less of the double standards would be great.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

You become a hypocrite when you say others have cant change thier views over time.

Saying one person cant do something and then doing the very thing yourself makes you a hypocrite.

**/ Wikipedia **/

Hypocrisy -
Hypocrisy is the state of promoting or administering virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have and is also guilty of violating.[1]

No point putting definitions up donal, the meaning of hypocrisy is not in question.

If you really claim to believe what you say about a person feeling its morally right to pay taxes, and that moral belief only stands if they would pay every new tax without question no matter what the new tax is applied to, then I believe you are pretending to be ignorant to the possibility of morality having limits.

Taxes are wide ranging, where as claiming a tax on a home is immoral, and then applying one, is a single fixed item.

We already know you never break any laws ever, so no doubt you are also morally flawless.

donalg1

bgrizzley wrote: »

So you are saying not paying the HHC is virtuous and principled?
Why, thank you Donal;)

Ok and where did I say that.

Just to be clear bgrizzley not paying the HHC is illegal end of story, there is nothing virtuous or principled about openingly breaking laws and boasting of your criminal behaviour.

I am sure there are plenty of criminals going around claiming they are breaking laws as a matter of principle however, this does not make it so.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

I am sure there are plenty of criminals going around claiming they are breaking laws as a matter of principle however, this does not make it so.

Well as you have never once broken a speed limit, you are not a criminal.

That must help the morals no end.

donalg1

Bruthal wrote: »

No point putting definitions up donal, the meaning of hypocrisy is not in question.

If you really claim to believe what you say about a person feeling its morally right to pay taxes, and that moral belief only stands if they would pay every new tax without question no matter what the new tax is applied to, then I believe you are pretending to be ignorant to the possibility of morality having limits.

Taxes are wide ranging, where as claiming a tax on a home is immoral, and then applying one, is a single fixed item.

We already know you never break any laws ever, so no doubt you are also morally flawless.

You are missing the point Ghandee is the one claiming its his moral duty to pay his taxes, I am simply saying he is being hypocritical when he talks about how Enda is wrong for changing his morals from 19yrs ago, when Ghandee is planning to change his in a few months.

If Ghandee claims its his moral duty to pay his taxes well then I fail to see how he can change his mind given the fact he maintains others cant change theirs.

bgrizzley

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/revenue-to-advise-homeowners-of-property-price-580212.html

dvpower wrote: »

The screw tightens.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/revenue-to-decide-value-of-homes-for-property-tax-3343775.html

This has to be the funniest yet. Where are they going to get the manpower to do anything except send out a generic letter to everyone in their database with a list of very high valuations.
IMO this undermines the Office of the Revenue and makes a joke their real work.
Are FG is trying to drag everyone one down to their level of ridicule?

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

You are missing the point Ghandee is the one claiming its his moral duty to pay his taxes, I am simply saying he is being hypocritical when he talks about how Enda is wrong for changing his morals from 19yrs ago, when Ghandee is planning to change his in a few months.

If Ghandee claims its his moral duty to pay his taxes well then I fail to see how he can change his mind given the fact he maintains others cant change theirs.

Not missing the point, its a simple point you are making. However, simple does not mean correct.

Ghandee agrees with enda`s moral stance 19 years ago. But one of them has changed his stance. Therefore, only one is hypocritical imo.

donalg1

Bruthal wrote: »

Not missing the point, its a simple point you are making. However, simple does not mean correct.

Ghandee agrees with enda`s moral stance 19 years ago. But one of them has changed his stance. Therefore, only one is hypocritical imo.

Exactly its Ghandee that is being hypocritical as he doesnt think Enda can change his opinion which is fair enough, but if Enda cant change his then Ghandee cant change his, if Ghandee maintains Enda cant change his while Ghandee changes his own then Ghandee becomes a hypocrite.

Like I said very simple indeed. The issue isnt about morals or anything like that, its about blatant double standards.

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

Exactly its Ghandee that is being hypocritical as he doesnt think Enda can change his opinion which is fair enough, but if Enda cant change his then Ghandee cant change his, if Ghandee maintains Enda cant change his while Ghandee changes his own then Ghandee becomes a hypocrite.

Eh?

Thanks for making me cross eyed.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Eh?

Thanks for making me cross eyed.

Tis a mouthful alright

Ghandee

To sum it up, I think paying tax on my income/motor/TV, etc (bearing in mind where my employment is) is my moral duty (seeing as I live here full time and that)

yet I draw the line at an immoral, unjust and unfair tax over my home, which I paid for, which I maintain, and which I've lawfully paid vat and associated taxes on each item in the house, and each service provided to it.

My stance hasn't and will not change on the issue.

Meanwhile, Enda Kenny said (yeah 19 years ago)

"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home"

Then goes on to do a u-turn on this, and threaten the bejaysus out of all and sundry who dare question his new decision.

Also, we have Leo saying.

Fine Gael Enterprise Spokesman Leo Varadkar TD has called on Taoiseach Brian Cowen to rule out the introduction of a property tax, following the controversial proposal from the National Economic and Social Council (NESC).

“The National Economic and Social Council (NESC) is a Government body under the aegis of Brian Cowen’s Department. The Council consists of the great and the good from the Social Partnership system along with the Taoiseach’s right hand men and women. It is funded by the Department of the Taoiseach and is chaired by Dermot McCarthy, the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach. The Deputy Chairperson, Mary Doyle is also a senior official in the Taoiseach’s Department. Other members include trade union bosses David Begg, Peter McLoone and Jack O’Connor, IBEC’s Turlough O’Sullivan, Fr Sean Healy, Sean Gorman (Secretary General of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment) and the Taoiseach’s special advisor, Peter Clinch.

just over four years ago,.

But you think I'm the hypocrite?

Seems legit.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

To sum it up, I think paying tax on my income/motor/TV, etc (bearing in mind where my employment is) is my moral duty (seeing as I live here full time and that)

yet I draw the line at an immoral, unjust and unfair tax over my home, which I paid for, which I maintain, and which I've lawfully paid vat and associated taxes on each item in the house, and each service provided to it.

My stance hasn't and will not change on the issue.

Meanwhile, Enda Kenny said (yeah 19 years ago)

Then goes on to do a u-turn on this, and threaten the bejaysus out of all and sundry who dare question his new decision.

Also, we have Leo saying.
just over four years ago,.

But you think I'm the hypocrite?

Seems legit.

Yes I believe so, now if Enda comes along and says Ghandee shouldnt be able to change his morals but I should be able to then at that stage I will say Enda is being hypocritical.

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

Yes I believe so, now if Enda comes along and says Ghandee shouldnt be able to change his morals but I should be able to then at that stage I will say Enda is being hypocritical.

You paid for your car didnt you and paid to maintain it and paid vat and whatever other taxes associated with it havent you? Yet you have no problem paying an additional tax on it, so really what is the difference between the house and car tax.

My car creates wear and tear on the road.

If I can't afford the tax on it, I can take it off road, I can tax it for only so many months, I can sell it and downsize it to one with a lower tax base.

Completely stupid comparison, that has been covered now umpteen times on this thread, always with the pro-siders looking silly.

When I come along and change my morals, then we can return to the 'hypocrite debate'.

My stance remains the same, besides that, don't I recall you being very unsure with your position on paying this tax to begin with?

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

if Enda comes along and says Ghandee shouldnt be able to change his morals but I should be able to then at that stage I will say Enda is being hypocritical.

Enda did change his morals, so by your conclusion he is a hypocrit.......

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

My car creates wear and tear on the road.

If I can't afford the tax on it, I can take it off road, I can tax it for only so many months, I can sell it and downsize it to one with a lower tax base.

Completely stupid comparison, that has been covered now umpteen times on this thread, always with the pro-siders looking silly.

When I come along and change my morals, then we can return to the 'hypocrite debate'.

My stance remains the same, besides that, don't I recall you being very unsure with your position on paying this tax to begin with?

Yes it has been covered umpteen times before thats why I edited and removed it as I cant be bothered going over it again, however it is still a very valid argument, that one person has no problem paying motor tax yet finds a problem paying a property tax despite the reasons for not paying the property tax could just as easily be applied to motor tax.

You cant say one person is not allowed to change thier mind and then declare that you will be changing your mind in the exact same way that you say others cant do without me thinking you are being a tad hypocritical.

Now fact is I believe there to be some blatant double standards there and no matter what you say I wont be changing my mind on that opinion as its clear as anything that there are double standards there.

Corkbah

really doesn't matter .... Enda/Ghandee .... its all the same !!

most important point is that the government/revenue do not have the manpower to inspect houses if people object to the valuation given by revenue and given the current situation, by the time revenue processes the assessments house price/values will probably have dropped again, so their initial "assessment" will be out of date and incorrect.

legally they cant give an exact assessment as every house has different attributes and character and a house is only valued at what a person will pay for it.

simple test IF/WHEN revenue sends out an assessment ...someone puts their home up for sale at the "estimated value" as determined by revenue and if/when revenue object the home owner simply shows them no-one made an offer (and if its done by many people the sheer influx of houses for sale on the market will result in values fluxing so much that revenue's figures will be inaccurate.....so its impossible to actually give a proper value estimate of an individual house..so revenue's task is impossible)

NOTE: If a person puts their home up for sale - they do NOT have to take any offers of asking price, they can simply put it up on Donedeal (not daft/myhome as I dont like them !!) and prove their case with the ridiculous low-ball offers they will receive.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Yes it has been covered umpteen times before thats why I edited and removed it as I cant be bothered going over it again, however it is still a very valid argument, that one person has no problem paying motor tax yet finds a problem paying a property tax despite the reasons for not paying the property tax could just as easily be applied to motor tax.

You cant say one person is not allowed to change thier mind and then declare that you will be changing your mind in the exact same way that you say others cant do without me thinking you are being a tad hypocritical.

Now fact is I believe there to be some blatant double standards there and no matter what you say I wont be changing my mind on that opinion as its clear as anything that there are double standards there.

you could also say a house is a house, finished estate or not they still get water and drainage, access to libraries, street lights, roads, bus routes, etc etc and its a double standard that they dont pay and we do.

donalg1

Corkbah wrote: »

really doesn't matter .... Enda/Ghandee .... its all the same !!

most important point is that the government/revenue do not have the manpower to inspect houses if people object to the valuation given by revenue and given the current situation, by the time revenue processes the assessments house price/values will probably have dropped again, so their initial "assessment" will be out of date and incorrect.

legally they cant give an exact assessment as every house has different attributes and character and a house is only valued at what a person will pay for it.

simple test IF/WHEN revenue sends out an assessment ...someone puts their home up for sale at the "estimated value" as determined by revenue and if/when revenue object the home owner simply shows them no-one made an offer (and if its done by many people the sheer influx of houses for sale on the market will result in values fluxing so much that revenue's figures will be inaccurate.....so its impossible to actually give a proper value estimate of an individual house..so revenue's task is impossible)

NOTE: If a person puts their home up for sale - they do NOT have to take any offers of asking price, they can simply put it up on Donedeal (not daft/myhome as I dont like them !!) and prove their case with the ridiculous low-ball offers they will receive.

But Revenue dont need to inspect and value every house in the country they have come up with bands for people to use to value their houses themselves. If Revenue think there is something suspicious about a valuation or if they think it seems a bit low in comparison to the others in the area they may drive past the house and say no chance thats in the lowest band and adjust the valuation for the owner at that stage.

And I dont think its a case of Revenue having to inspect houses either they will simply say this is what we value it at so this is what you have to pay, full stop.

As is done in other countries with property taxes they dont have to continuously value the homes they simply adjust the percentage of the value, so it goes from 0.18% to 0.15% or to 0.25% and that is how they increase or decrease the amounts due.



In the North afair they are using valuations from 2005.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Tis a mouthful alright

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

In the North afair they are using valuations from 2005.

Why won't they bring in the norths system here then?

and the services that go with it, all of them.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Why won't they bring in the norths system here then?

and the services that go with it, all of them.

Because this isnt the North so I would imagine they are going to bring in a system that they believe suits us and is best for us based on our tax system.

But then I wouldnt know why they make the decisions they do, only they could answer you that. I would imagine that they are bringing it in with the hope of not having to provide any more services than they already do which will increase the profits gained from it.

Corkbah

donalg1 wrote: »

But Revenue dont need to inspect and value every house in the country they have come up with bands for people to use to value their houses themselves. If Revenue think there is something suspicious about a valuation or if they think it seems a bit low in comparison to the others in the area they may drive past the house and say no chance thats in the lowest band and adjust the valuation for the owner at that stage.

And I dont think its a case of Revenue having to inspect houses either they will simply say this is what we value it at so this is what you have to pay, full stop.

As is done in other countries with property taxes they dont have to continuously value the homes they simply adjust the percentage of the value, so it goes from 0.18% to 0.15% or to 0.25% and that is how they increase or decrease the amounts due.



In the North afair they are using valuations from 2005.

in the article it says that if you object to the valuation ...revenue would assess the property.

at the moment we have a heat recovery unit installed in the house (which lowers the bills) and an extension out the back(which is not visible from the front of back of the house - due to being a semi-detached house and trees out the back .... how can revenue say that the place where I live is worth the same as my neighbours ??

similarly - one of my neighbours had a house fire a few years ago and the entire interior was gutted and rebuilt - this would have affected the re-sale price, our own home was rebuilt 2yrs ago due to flooding....so all piping was extra lagged.

Are you trying to say that revenue will take all this into consideration when creating an estimated value for the house ??? No they won't...so whatever estimation I get I will refuse and ignore - the place is prone to flooding - I doubt revenue will take this into consideration