Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

bgrizzley

i can see it now, Michael Martin announcing the scrapping of the property tax from the leaders seat, Kenny with a long face over in the opposition backbench asking himself "i was the president of Europe, i could have had it all, how did it go wrong Mammy?":(

DoesNotCompute

bgrizzley wrote: »

i can see it now, Michael Martin announcing the scrapping of the property tax from the leaders seat, Kenny with a long face over in the opposition backbench asking himself "i was the president of Europe, i could have had it all, how did it go wrong Mammy?":(

Hardly likely; FF's position all along since being in opposition has been that it is "not the right time" for a property tax, not "we are opposed to a property tax".

donalg1

Not to mention the fact that whoever takes power after the next election wont just sign off on scrapping a massive stream of income. The only reason they would do such a thing would be to win votes but hey if they are in power they hardly need to win votes now do they!

cocobear

bgrizzley wrote: »

i can see it now, Michael Martin announcing the scrapping of the property tax from the leaders seat, Kenny with a long face over in the opposition backbench asking himself "i was the president of Europe, i could have had it all, how did it go wrong Mammy?":(

Approve or dont approve of the property tax, it's still an income stream and if removed will simply be replaced by something else to make up.the short fall.
I dont think handing it over to the revenue was so stupid, the have the details of all mortgage holders in receipt of TRS, and also details of all stamp duty transactions on property sales, and inheritance tax on inheritance of property.

bgrizzley

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Hardly likely; FF's position all along since being in opposition has been that it is "not the right time" for a property tax, not "we are opposed to a property tax".

"not the right time" is a FF euphemism for "the people dont want it"

they'd sell their grannies for a vote and there 700k for sale at the moment.

where have you been since 1997 DNC?:p

bgrizzley

donalg1 wrote: »

Not to mention the fact that whoever takes power after the next election wont just sign off on scrapping a massive stream of income. The only reason they would do such a thing would be to win votes but hey if they are in power they hardly need to win votes now do they!

"A massive stream of income is no used to you if you arent in power... "
Simple Irish Political Thinking

Chips Lovell

Given that the next election is probably two to three years away, it's probably a bit soon to start speculating what might happen after it.

Fianna Fail's current position is retention of the Household Charge but no Property Tax, which may not be exactly what the opponents of the Property Tax are looking for. Their position could of course change in the next few years, especially if they see there's votes in it.

bgrizzley

cocobear wrote: »

Approve or dont approve of the property tax, it's still an income stream and if removed will simply be replaced by something else to make up.the short fall.
I dont think handing it over to the revenue was so stupid, the have the details of all mortgage holders in receipt of TRS, and also details of all stamp duty transactions on property sales, and inheritance tax on inheritance of property.

if they have all these lists of names/databases why didnt they hand them over to the LGMA as the legislation allows to send out bills to the non payers.

More bluff, bluff, bluff.

bgrizzley

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Given that the next election is probably two to three years away, it's probably a bit soon to start speculating what might happen after it.

Fianna Fail's current position is retention of the Household Charge but no Property Tax, which may not be exactly what the opponents of the Property Tax are looking for. Their position could of course change in the next few years, especially if they see there's votes in it.

thats only if something doesnt happen in the meantime. Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmore-vows-ill-face-down-the-labour-dissidents-3346439.html

donalg1

bgrizzley wrote: »

"A massive stream of income is no used to you if you arent in power... "
Simple Irish Political Thinking

Yes and I can see it now, FF's next election manifesto "We will scrap the Property Tax" and on day 1 in power, "em we arent going to scrap it as it provides us with a steady stream of income that we just cant do without at the minute, we will scrap it at some stage but now is not the right time".

And everyone will be on here saying they didnt stick to their pre election promises, the cheek of the fcukers!!

And I will say "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...."

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Yes and I can see it now, FF's next election manifesto "We will scrap the Property Tax" and on day 1 in power, "em we arent going to scrap it as it provides us with a steady stream of income that we just cant do without at the minute, we will scrap it at some stage but now is not the right time".

And everyone will be on here saying they didnt stick to their pre election promises, the cheek of the fcukers!!

And I will say "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...."

fool me twice then obviously iv given you the oppertunity, dont give them the oppertunity by not registering and not paying it

DoesNotCompute

donalg1 wrote: »

Yes and I can see it now, FF's next election manifesto "We will scrap the Property Tax" and on day 1 in power, "em we arent going to scrap it as it provides us with a steady stream of income that we just cant do without at the minute, we will scrap it at some stage but now is not the right time".

And everyone will be on here saying they didnt stick to their pre election promises, the cheek of the fcukers!!

And I will say "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37150WDTI6c

Chips Lovell

bgrizzley wrote: »

thats only if something doesnt happen in the meantime. Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmore-vows-ill-face-down-the-labour-dissidents-3346439.html

That's true, you never know what can happen in the meantime that could lead the government to fall. But given that they've got the biggest majority in the history of the state, it's going to take an awful lot more TDs to defect. I'd say if they don't go full term, it will be because of some cabinet row causing one of them to pull out rather than individual TDs renouncing the whip.

Ghandee

I think labour will bring the whole thing down in March/April.

ThreeLineWhip

Ghandee wrote: »

I think labour will bring the whole thing down in March/April.

I look forward to it.

But I can't imagine why Labour would pull the plug on FG.

Ghandee

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

I look forward to it.

But I can't imagine why Labour would pull the plug on FG.

What have they got to lose after March regardless if they stray in power or not?

Pensions for life kick in for the first time elected TD's.

They could pull the plug under the pretence that they no longer agreed with govt policies (insert other bs exit excuse here) win back some support from life long, grass root supporters, and hope not to go the same way as the greens and PD party before them.....

What would they care? They'd hardly be on the live register afterwards?

Ireland being Ireland, it wouldn't be surprising if they even got back in on a new general election (nothing surprises me any more)

Its all about the money to some remember.

cocobear

Ghandee wrote: »

What have they got to lose after March regardless if they stray in power or not?

Pensions for life kick in for the first time elected TD's.

They could pull the plug under the pretence that they no longer agreed with govt policies (insert other bs exit excuse here) win back some support from life long, grass root supporters, and hope not to go the same way as the greens and PD party before them.....

What would they care? They'd hardly be on the live register afterwards?

Ireland being Ireland, it wouldn't be surprising if they even got back in on a new general election (nothing surprises me any more)

Its all about the money to some remember.

The best gravy train in the world!!
"LET THEM EAT CAKE!!!!!!"

Am Chile

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Hardly likely; FF's position all along since being in opposition has been that it is "not the right time" for a property tax, not "we are opposed to a property tax".

FF have come out now in opposing a property tax.
SF have opposed it from day one.
Independents all oppose it,
ULA/socialists etc oppose it.

That leaves (in my eyes) FG and labour in support of it.

I don't foresee labour having much sway in any upcoming elections after shafting the workers and working class they supposedly represent (not to mention Shorthall fiasco)

That leaves FG standing alone in supporting property taxes come the next G.E, and I'd take a very wild guess that any party wishing to be voted into govt in the next elections should have a party manifesto to abolish this tax and any charges/penalties attached to it-with over 1.9 million + liable including council tenants they have given people of all walks of life an issue to unite over-anyone who thinks this won,t be a election issue come next general election is very foolish-as for some people saying ah sure Fianna Fail wouldn,t abolish a property tax-lets not forget Fianna Fail abolished domestic rates in 1977-abolished the previous property tax in 1997 and abolished the land tax in the 80s.

the land tax was fiercely resisted by farmers and their resistance was rewarded in 1987 by Charles Haughey when he abolished the land tax.

http://update.dit.ie/2012/09-01-12/documents/Irish%20Times%20Sean%20Byrne.pdf

spikethedog

I think Fine Gael and Labour are just playing it by ear at the moment.
They'll never fully introduce this tax because they don't have the caliber of people in the public service who are competent at introducing new systems.
Look at the mess they made of the household charge, look at the mess that is the student grant system, look at the mess they made of PPARS, voting machines anyone?, the list is endless. Trying to screw money out of house owners to fund incompetence won't wash anymore with most Irish people.
On another level and according to some, going by the sale of bonds today, the troika will be gone by year end.
There's no real appetite for a property tax in Ireland, only from a few on sites like this who most lightly don't have a mortgage or bought quite recently and have a small mortgage on a low value property.
Next year we have local elections and two years after that a general election.
Another round of auction politics is in the offing and the first thing for sale will be the property tax.

dxhound2005

The big scaremongering campaign from 2012 failed. Certain quarters tried to fool people into believing that the average property tax would be €1000.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056708357

Instead of which the estimate is that 85% to 90% of houses will fall into the first 5 bands €90 to €495 per year. Which is fixed until November 2016. In fact a house would have to be valued at around €600,000 to pay tax of €1000.

http://www.rte.ie/documents/news/local-property-tax.pdf

Now these same quarters, some of them politically motivated, say all people have to do is wait until there is a new government and the tax will go away. More stupid advice which will only lead to bad outcomes for anyone who follows it.

Bruthal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The big scaremongering campaign from 2012 failed. Certain quarters tried to fool people into believing that the average property tax would be €1000.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056708357

Instead of which the estimate is that 85% to 90% of houses will fall into the first 5 bands €90 to €495 per year. Which is fixed until November 2016. In fact a house would have to be valued at around €600,000 to pay tax of €1000.

http://www.rte.ie/documents/news/local-property-tax.pdf

Now these same quarters, some of them politically motivated, say all people have to do is wait until there is a new government and the tax will go away. More stupid advice which will only lead to bad outcomes for anyone who follows it.

Phil couldn`t have wrote it better himself.

Bullseye1

It you think that this property tax is going to stay at its introductory rate for much more than the allocated 3 years your either lying to yourself or you have an agenda. Once LAs start setting the rates these will sky rocket.

Bullseye1

At least be honest about your policies.

Bruthal

Bullseye1 wrote: »

It you think that this property tax is going to stay at its introductory rate for much more than the allocated 3 years your either lying to yourself or you have an agenda. Once LAs start setting the rates these will sky rocket.

Yea, a price freeze until 2016. Maybe it should go into bargain alerts. while its below the €1000 mark.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Given that the next election is probably two to three years away, it's probably a bit soon to start speculating what might happen after it.

Fianna Fail's current position is retention of the Household Charge but no Property Tax, which may not be exactly what the opponents of the Property Tax are looking for. Their position could of course change in the next few years, especially if they see there's votes in it.

Why has the PRO side not commented on the suggestions here regarding a proper charge for all the services like 600e for bins, water, street cleaning etc?
Do it right and fair and the people will pay. None of this targeting of a family home and offering nothing in return.
We are currently paying 52% of our weekly wage on taxes or levies so a proper Services Tax with the requisite services would prevent all the protests and end the "attack on our homes" defence/reason for not paying. It makes sense.

Bruthal

tayto lover wrote: »

Why has the PRO side not commented on the suggestions here regarding a proper charge for all the services like 600e for bins, water, street cleaning etc?
Do it right and fair and the people will pay. None of this targeting of a family home and offering nothing in return.
We are currently paying 52% of our weekly wage on taxes or levies so a proper Services Tax with the requisite services would prevent all the protests and end the "attack on our homes" defence/reason for not paying. It makes sense.

Indeed it does, which is a likely reason our great leaders wont do it.

Bullseye1

Our taxes are paying for third world quality services. God help you if you get sick and need a serious operation. It seems no matter how much money you throw at government they still cannot get it right. And you still have people who keep towing the line that we need more taxes to pay for the services we deserve. If we paid 80% tax we still wouldn't get the services we deserve. Wages in the public sector would increase but quality of service would would remain substandard.

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

Why has the PRO side not commented on the suggestions here regarding a proper charge for all the services like 600e for bins, water, street cleaning etc?
Do it right and fair and the people will pay. None of this targeting of a family home and offering nothing in return.
We are currently paying 52% of our weekly wage on taxes or levies so a proper Services Tax with the requisite services would prevent all the protests and end the "attack on our homes" defence/reason for not paying. It makes sense.

Where you have these models like GB (water charged for separately from Council Tax) or NI (water included now in Domestic Rates but will probably have to be charged for separately soon) you have to realise that approx 70% of the spending is funded from central government grants. So if people are paying typically £1200 per year this is only enough income to their Local Authorities to cover about 30% of the cost of services provided.

The central government grants have to be funded by income tax VAT etc.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where you have these models like GB (water charged for separately from Council Tax) or NI (water included now in Domestic Rates but will probably have to be charged for separately soon) you have to realise that approx 70% of the spending is funded from central government grants. So if people are paying typically £1200 per year this is only enough income to their Local Authorities to cover about 30% of the cost of services provided.

The central government grants have to be funded by income tax VAT etc.

I see similarities with here and there..

LPT and HHC money collected to go into central govt pot. (then divided out as they see fit)

Also, last time I checked my salary had income tax deducted from it, and I know I read somewhere that the rate of vat here was higher than that of the UK.

I'd like to add that I got a letter from AES last Friday, informing me that my refuse collection fee would rise by 10% from Feb, felt a bit cheated by this as I recently left oxygen to go to them, anyways called them to give out, and low and behold, they're 'only passing a Levy imposed on them by the govt on to their customers', nice move by govt all the same, privatise it, then tax the shiite out of it :mad:

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

Indeed, those that declared that the HHC would be scrapped and that the Property Tax would never stand a chance of being introduced.

A minor setback.