Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

darkhorse

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What a load of crap. Nobody is forbidding anybody anything.

Give it time.

spikethedog

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

But it costs money to treat it/distribute it/maintain the distibution network. You're more than welcome to drink the free, plentiful, flouride-free water that falls from the sky though. No-one's stopping you.

Perhaps if they spent some money fixing the leaks that result in 50% or so of our water being leaked into the ground it wouldn't cost so much to provide the service in the first place.
This is Ireland is suppose so we shouldn't really be expecting to have properly functioning infrastructure, should we?

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fhalf-of-water-lost-through-leaky-pipes-despite-500m-upgrades-2563669.html&ei=sTbvULChOIe5hAfZ1oGwBg&usg=AFQjCNFd1x__dicqMt00w83M5XUVGoggaw&sig2=0pykJTYNwf36u2DCRfBMBw

spikethedog

Sorry to the moderator.
Posted the above post before I got to the last page.....

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

So in theory they could reduce to a non existant level i.e. a level that takes four hours to fill a cup water.

Irish Independent
hursday January 10 2013
Households that refuse to pay are unlikely to be cut off, but they will face the prospect of having the unpaid bill registered as a charge against their property or experience a loss of water pressure, meaning that washing machines and dishwashers cannot be used.

donalg1

Slick50 wrote: »

Well if enough people "moan" about our governments decisions, it will do good. They are our representatives, and are supposed to be influenced by public opinion.

That is a very big if, although it does take more than moaning to have anything done about it, the HHC proves that, the amount of moaning about that on here alone, yet its still here. It takes more than moaning unfortunately most peoples objections to decisions by the Government go as far as moaning and no further.

And my point was you will be getting a personalised bill, with your name and address.

Obviously but why you quoted that in response to my original post I dont know as it doesnt really have much to do with the facts I outlined in it.

No it won't, not when it is handed over to local councils. What about when the market begins to improve, and house prices rise... but your income has remained the same or deteriorated. Besides, "legislators are there to legislate. "Once established it can change anytime.

Like I said it will be staying the same for the next few years until its handed over to the council.

So, like bad law, you just accept this, and hold no hope of ever changing it. Some people truly do deserve the government they get.

I asked who is going to enforce these consequences, how does the above answer that? I also outlined how politicians will no doubt get around said consequences if there were any which there never will be. And what is you are doing to ensure politicians stick to their pre election promises, if you arent just accepting it.

Hijpo

Can someone explain to him that there are no other avenues for Joe public to contend this tax or pretty much anything government decide to bring in. Vote for someone else, four years later, good one.

Fastest, most combined effort is to not register.

Ghandee

Hijpo wrote: »

Can someone explain to him that there are no other avenues for Joe public to contend this tax or pretty much anything government decide to bring in. Vote for someone else, four years later, good one.

Fastest, most combined effort is to not register.

What?

Sure that's against the law :eek:

Slick50

donalg1 wrote: »

... although it does take more than moaning to have anything done about it, the HHC proves that, the amount of moaning about that on here alone, yet its still here.

No it isn't

donalg1 wrote: »

Obviously but why you quoted that in response to my original post I dont know as it doesnt really have much to do with the facts I outlined in it.

For some reason you decided to lists facts about your circumstances re: the property tax, I just pointed out another very pertinent one.

donalg1 wrote: »

Like I said it will be staying the same for the next few years until its handed over to the council.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn't make it true.

donalg1 wrote: »

I asked who is going to enforce these consequences, how does the above answer that?

If it is written into law, or put to referendum and added to our constitution, the civil service.... or "the revenue" that you seem to hold in such high regard.

donalg1 wrote: »

I also outlined how politicians will no doubt get around said consequences if there were any which there never will be.

It would make room for genuinely upfront politicians to stand out, without fear of being out "trumped" by bullsh*tters.

donalg1 wrote: »

And what is you are doing to ensure politicians stick to their pre election promises, if you arent just accepting it.

In this particular case, I have been out on the streets on numerous protest marches to voice my decent, I have made representations to my local FG and LB TD's. And I am willing to face prossecution, fines and whatever else they come up with to force this despicable law down our throats.

donalg1

Slick50 wrote: »

No it isn't

Yes it is, or are you claiming that the HHC was defeated and those that didnt pay it are now free from paying it?

For some reason you decided to lists facts about your circumstances re: the property tax, I just pointed out another very pertinent one.

Yes the reason being that I hadnt given much thought to how Revenue were going to value my property because I figured that this would be extremely easy for them to do.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn't make it true.

But it is true, and it doesnt matter how many times you claim it is going to increase over the next few years, because you claiming it will happen doesnt make it true. What have you based these claims on exactly?

If it is written into law, or put to referendum and added to our constitution, the civil service.... or "the revenue" that you seem to hold in such high regard.

Hang on so now you are saying that the Revenue or civil service are going to be responsible for making sure politicians stick to their pre election promises? Dont the Revenue and Civil Service answer to the Government, are you now saying that this should be reversed? How will this work?

It would make room for genuinely upfront politicians to stand out, without fear of being out "trumped" by bullsh*tters.

Maybe but then how many genuinely upfront politicians are there?

In this particular case, I have been out on the streets on numerous protest marches to voice my decent, I have made representations to my local FG and LB TD's. And I am willing to face prossecution, fines and whatever else they come up with to force this despicable law down our throats.

And all your protests have achieved what exactly, like I said earlier the HHC isnt gone away, and the LPT will be introduced. So protesting to try and get politicians to live up to their pre election promises hasnt exactly worked so far.

And that is not a dig at you, at least you are out there protesting, its the others that sit around on here all day claiming to be protesting while actually doing nothing that are the ones I have a problem with and I am sure those that are out protesting would feel the same.

Hijpo

@slick50

Your wasting your time, honestly.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

That's basically what I said to those bastards down at Tesco :rolleyes:

Rather than like the farmer with the well trained sheep.
He only has to shout "come here and be fleeced" and they run to him :rolleyes:

Slick50

donalg1 wrote: »

Yes it is, or are you claiming that the HHC was defeated and those that didnt pay it are now free from paying it?

You are twisting my words, you said "it is still here", there is no HHC this year. How much is your HHC bill this year?

donalg1 wrote: »

Yes the reason being that I hadnt given much thought to how Revenue were going to value my property because I figured that this would be extremely easy for them to do.

Maybe in your case, but there are a lot of houses out there.

donalg1 wrote: »

But it is true, and it doesnt matter how many times you claim it is going to increase over the next few years, because you claiming it will happen doesnt make it true. What have you based these claims on exactly?

LPT will be set locally next year, it will not stay the same, and I'd wager it won't be going down.

donalg1 wrote: »

Hang on so now you are saying that the Revenue or civil service are going to be responsible for making sure politicians stick to their pre election promises? Dont the Revenue and Civil Service answer to the Government, are you now saying that this should be reversed? How will this work?

Civil service are responsible for implementing all laws/rules/regulations of the country. Why shouldn't they do so if these rules etc. apply to politicians? If there are laws governing what they can and can't do, what would be the problem... they could be given the option of stepping down if they weren't happy with the consequences.

donalg1 wrote: »

Maybe but then how many genuinely upfront politicians are there?

I don't know, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't incentivise them to become so.

donalg1 wrote: »

And all your protests have achieved what exactly, like I said earlier the HHC isnt gone away, and the LPT will be introduced. So protesting to try and get politicians to live up to their pre election promises hasnt exactly worked so far.

It has prevented the government from compiling a complete database, and it has prevented them from implementing the full charge they wanted to impose on us by now. The fat lady isn't even warming up her voice yet.

donalg1 wrote: »

And that is not a dig at you, at least you are out there protesting, its the others that sit around on here all day claiming to be protesting while actually doing nothing that are the ones I have a problem with and I am sure those that are out protesting would feel the same.

It would certainly have been more effective if more people came out on the streets. But sitting around and not registering and not paying, is better than sitting there saying "I don't agree with this" but paying up anyway to possibly save a few bob in the long run.

Am Chile

Some people have prob heard about siptus planned rallies in different towns in a few weeks-who here plans to attend ? plans not to attend ?

SIPTU
General President, Jack O’Connor, has urged all union members to participate in
a national “Day of Action against Austerity” on Saturday, 9th February, which is
being organised by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

http://www.siptu.ie/media/pressreleases2012/mainnews/fullstory_16864_en.html

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

Well it is staying at current levels until 2016 so we know what it will be for the next few years anyway. QUOTE]

Oh yeah, the government said that alright, so it must be gospel. They'd never to lie to us, would they?:eek:

Le_Dieux

bgrizzley wrote: »

this is Ireland. if you cut down on your water consumption they will just increase your bill.

you are a cash cow, nothing more

Well said BG, and until someone in DE proves otherwise, I'll always believe we are the cows being milked to the hilt:mad:

Le_Dieux

Am Chile wrote: »

Some people have prob heard about siptus planned rallies in different towns in a few weeks-who here plans to attend ? plans not to attend ?



http://www.siptu.ie/media/pressreleases2012/mainnews/fullstory_16864_en.html

AC, while I am all for planned marches, I honestly think JOC has a fcuking neck protesting...while on his crazy salary. ANYTHING SIPTU have their hands in, I'm not supporting them - sorry! Why am I so hard nosed about this? I was in construction up to 2009 when I was retrenched. The SIPTU shopsteward came out to us to tell us the doors were closing in a BRAND NEW MERC................ talk about hypocrisy!

Am Chile

Le_Dieux wrote: »

AC, while I am all for planned marches, I honestly think JOC has a fcuking neck protesting...while on his crazy salary. ANYTHING SIPTU have their hands in, I'm not supporting them - sorry! Why am I so hard nosed about this? I was in construction up to 2009 when I was retrenched. The SIPTU shopsteward came out to us to tell us the doors were closing in a BRAND NEW MERC................ talk about hypocrisy!

I feel and get what you re saying 100% I myself like plenty of others are critical as to the motives of this Siptu march-I fail to see how

Siptu as a Union can object to Government policy when Siptu are connected to the Labour party who hold the reigns of power that are carrying out these same austerity policies they proclaim to oppose - Now from my perspective, this seems to be a contradiction right, It's one thing to proclaim anger over this debt and I applaud this acknowledgement of it- so far Siptu have no objections to the Property Tax- The water rates- The Budget- It just seems to me the planned protest in a few weeks is just to give the masses the Impression the unions are doing something-by having a few union leaders giving speeches telling people what they want to hear-most people in attendence will clap at the end of each speech and everyone goes home afterwards-and nothing changes-Im sure most of the ordinary members in factories/shops oppose property taxes-but they haven,t sought to apply any pressure to get Siptu as a union to fight the property tax-if big crowds attend

the march on Feb 9th and heckle the union reps over the property tax-they may feel under a bit of pressure to act in the Interests of their ordinary members.

Le_Dieux

LAST thing I want is for a thread to drift into union bashing, so apologies to Mods if I am dragging this out.

Unions wanting to organise ANY protest in 2013 are about 3 years too effing late. I agree they can only be trying to score points here 'organising' these marches. I, for one, will NEVER march under a union banner - they have done their fair bit to put this Godforesaken Country in the quagmire it is in today. And as for the exhorbitant salaries the likes of O'Connor get - they should be ashamed to show their faces at protest marches on 'poverty'.

Heavens help us!!!

flutered

bgrizzley wrote: »

this is Ireland. if you cut down on your water consumption they will just increase your bill.

you are a cash cow, nothing more

i need to grow a couple of more tits, four is not enough anymore, nowdays the normal needs to be six.

Le_Dieux

Meanwhile, the potential fallout from these letters we are all ( supposedly ) get in March are going to be the source of a lot of controversy/court battles.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/experts-warn-revenue-home-values-may-be-wildly-wrong-3346463.html

Am Chile

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Meanwhile, the potential fallout from these letters we are all ( supposedly ) get in March are going to be the source of a lot of controversy/court battles.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/experts-warn-revenue-home-values-may-be-wildly-wrong-3346463.html

Whenever I hear Ronan Lyons talk about property taxes/property values/property prices so on- he comes across to me as a fellow with a vested Interest in the property tax and property valuations.

darkhorse

tayto lover wrote: »

Rather than like the farmer with the well trained sheep.
He only has to shout "come here and be fleeced" and they run to him :rolleyes:

What about this, tayto. It opened my eyes. What dia think.

You may be wondering exactly what Direct Democracy is and how it works. Direct Democracy is a form of government that is said to be by the people, but also for the people. It is a type of government that the people will make the decisions for themselves rather than to have the decisions made by representatives. Another term used to describe Direct Democracy is pure democracy or “true” democracy.

tayto lover

darkhorse wrote: »

What about this, tayto. It opened my eyes. What dia think.

You may be wondering exactly what Direct Democracy is and how it works. Direct Democracy is a form of government that is said to be by the people, but also for the people. It is a type of government that the people will make the decisions for themselves rather than to have the decisions made by representatives. Another term used to describe Direct Democracy is pure democracy or “true” democracy.

Aw no. It's more like this --

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/162240/dictatorship

darkhorse

tayto lover wrote: »

Aw no. It's more like this --

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/162240/dictatorship[/QUOTE]

That describes exactly what we have now.

Ghandee

THE Government's attempt to present a more optimistic outlook for 2013 has been rejected by the public, who remain in a mood of deep-rooted anxiety about the state of the country, according to a Sunday Independent/Millward Brown opinion poll.

The nationwide poll has found that only a third of voters are confident that the Government will run its full term and almost half have doubts as to Labour's position and impact in Coalition.

In response to the poll, the Labour chairman and dissident TD Colm Keaveney said Labour should remain in Government but "refuse to implement" policies that directly contradicted the party's "declared values"

The poll has found a significant increase since November in the number of people who are worried that they will lose their job and home this year, as well as deep concern about the impact of the property tax when it is introduced in July

This weekend there were indications that the Government may face a revolt by Fine Gael TDs from Dublin in relation to what they see as iniquities in the proposed property tax.

. "This is not a property tax.This is nothing more than a revenue-raising exercise," said Dublin South TD Olivia Mitchell, adding: "I bitterly resent having to pay this because we are paying for the rest of the country."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/voters-no-to-positive-spin-and-survival-of-coalition-3350337.html

bgrizzley

id love to know what Olivia means.

my taxes pay for the subsidised bus/luas that stops outside her door, all those pretty parks, the pipework leaving and entering her house. the guys who clean her streets and keep it pretty. her salary!

im pretty sick of paying for you Olivia!

Le_Dieux

bgrizzley wrote: »

id love to know what Olivia means.

my taxes pay for the subsidised bus/luas that stops outside her door, all those pretty parks, the pipework leaving and entering her house. the guys who clean her streets and keep it pretty. her salary!

im pretty sick of paying for you Olivia!

My take is that I believe she has finally seen the writing on the wall and wants to cover her own árse, and no matter what she says, NO OTHER reason. If she WAS so concerned, why is she only opening her gob now?

ALL politicians are ONLY thinking of themselves...for me, the only ones in the last few years who have shown ANY inkling for their electorate is Róisín Shortall and that Gentleman ( pardon me, I forget His name) in Meath who died recently ( and may He R.I.P.).

The rest? Tsk!!!

Le_Dieux

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-faces-property-tax-revolt-by-dublin-tds-3350341.html

FG v FG??? Bring it on I say!!!

HabeasCorpus

So am I right in thinking that if I sell my home, and become 'homeless', go on the council waiting list for a council house, I don't have to pay property tax? Then I can have the lump sum tucked away in my children's accounts. Maybe this is preferable to accumulating a 'charge on my home' because I have paid a fortune in tax on it already. This cannot be further taxed.

I worked extremely hard to pay the stamp duty and services charges on my site. I paid tax at 13.5% on the labour of my home, and 21% on each material thing going into it. I paid variable rates of tax and interest on loans, most recently 800 euro last year on the mortgage. I paid tax to the auctioneer who sold me the site, and tax to solicitor for the conveyencing.

In the meantime, if I sell my home and go on the waiting list for a Council House, the Healthboard can give me an allowance of 700 -800 euro a month towards a nice rented home. Being hardworking and buying my own house has not proved a worthwhile exercise, I am now charged for the privilege of having it.

I would prefer to save the billions we pay to unsecured bondholders (who are these bondholders??? Are any TDs among them?), cut the many pensions paid to TDs, cut the exorbitant pay given to the 'Financial Advisors', who allowed this mess to happen, and are still employed. Obviously cut the huge salaries and pensions in Anglo Irish Bank and the other bailed out banks. (BAILED OUT by The Irish Taxpayer) Have a good look at the President, how much he costs, take every perk into consideration, how much money does he need when his housing, travel, vehicle, food etc are all paid for, plus expenses. Look at all these highly paid people who are serving on several Boards, receiving over 100k a year for each post, and many pensions. These are all areas which need to be cut. Common sense tells you that if a person is EARNING and working for ONE job paying 100K, they cannot physically be contributing anything of great fiscal value to several other jobs as well. Why are we paying Government Advisors, these in many cases are people who watched Ireland's descent to poverty and did nothing. They should be in jail, but no, they are still employed. In many cases they are retired from other well paid civil servant positions and already receiving a pension. Some are serving as a member for a Bank or Government Board. I don't believe that after one term, a TD is entitled to a full pension, nor should someone be in receipt of several pensions, plus their TD salary.

WE are in control. WE can make changes, we are not to be tossed about at the mercy of these greedy, useless people who got us into this financial state. WE CAN change things, we do not have to vote them in again. We can force THEM to treat us properly. Don't forget that.

There is PLENTY of tax taken in Ireland. But it is squandered, it is lining the pockets of a small minority of people, TDs, Government Advisors, Bank Board members, Civil Servants who know how to play the game, the tax we pay is not wisely apportioned. The answer is to cut from the Big Boys who are fleecing the system, not to force crippling tax on the struggling masses.

dxhound2005

Le_Dieux wrote: »

My take is that I believe she has finally seen the writing on the wall and wants to cover her own árse, and no matter what she says, NO OTHER reason. If she WAS so concerned, why is she only opening her gob now?

ALL politicians are ONLY thinking of themselves...for me, the only ones in the last few years who have shown ANY inkling for their electorate is Róisín Shortall and that Gentleman ( pardon me, I forget His name) in Meath who died recently ( and may He R.I.P.).

The rest? Tsk!!!

She has form here, earlier in the thread the anti side tried to make us believe that her election poster from the 1990's was actually from 2011.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2012/06/05/property-tax-is-unfair-and-inequitable-leaflet-from-olivia-mitchell-fine-gael-dublin-south/

So you can't accuse her of not opening her gob before but Enda has moved on and she hasn't. Or as you say the real reason just like Shortall and Keavney is that she needs to make the right noises to her electors, in her case in places like Foxrock. Unlike leafy South Belfast where a house worth millions pays the same as one worth £400,000 (the maximum cap) for the same services here the rate actually increases for houses over €1m with no cap.

But it doesn't matter, it is just the usual stuff from the Sunday papers and will be forgotten in a week. She will not do anything for the likes of you when the Revenue come calling.