Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Le_Dieux

Mr CJ wrote: »

Another thing to the donkeys re previous comments... the people who are fighting this are not free loaders/scroungers or anything of the sort and how dare you call them that.

What differentiates you guys to us is that we have eyes connected to a functioning healthy brain with sense and can fully see and appreciate whats going on!!

I myself have been employed for years (good job) worked myself up from sweeping floors and now I am self employed, I have no issue paying tax and other expenses its a necessity (which reminds me... funny stuff re road tax...comments from idiots saying "if you wont pay this would you choose not to pay road tax?" LAUGHING OUT LOUD I wont even comment on this)

Anyway my point is enough is enough and the system has to be completely revamped all politicians should be kicked out and have no benefits they should be replaced by experts who have actually some knowledge of the area they are in also the time you see 2 or more cars parked in homes paid by the state where the occupants are on the social welfare who never worked a day in their lives going on holidays etc must come to an end!! Where in gods name is the incentive to work?? The money should be taken from them and given to the people out working contributing tax to the economy so then they can afford to keep their car next week and even perhaps go on a holiday... the whole system is fkd up and needs to be changed... sorry a little of topic.

PS: Lets not forget this current system is still allowing Ahern to recieve his €150,000/yr... yes thats right the guy who helped fck the country up you might say he needs an income lol he already fkn has it from the International forrestry fund another 150k... and you guys still have no problem with the system... the insanity is mind blowing!!

WELL SAID Mr_CJ. I TOTALLY concur with every word You say here. You mention Bertie....He's only one of MANY, look at Gormley, what a waste!!!

donalg1

Am Chile wrote: »

A round of anti family home tax public meetings will begin nationwide in the near future,people who are opposed to the family home tax should try and attend as many public meetings as possbile, over the next six months protests will be required, I don,t think the old marching style protests will be enough, if people come out in numbers, Id call for to start blocking bridges, picketing tds homes who support the family home tax, occupy their constituency clinics, last but not least occupy revenue office buildings, posters who are opposed to the family home tax, besides not paying how far are most of you prepared to go on this issue ?

Not too far at all, maybe to an Internet Forum of some sort to mash the keyboard for a bit and claim to be "doing my bit"

Chips Lovell

Le_Dieux wrote: »

AC, I wonder do You, or anyone else, know the answer to this question?: I have been googling to find out if the Greeks/Portuguese/Spaniards/anyone else pays a HHC/PT?

Spain and Portugal both have a longstanding property tax. Greece got one last year.

HabeasCorpus

It is almost amusing how people paying all their taxes, paying for their home, car, own and children's education, paying tax for EVERYthing are easy targets to label free loaders and scroungers. So ironic.

As well commented by many posters on this thread, those in the Dail, Bank Boards, Advisors, ex Taoiseachi, and all those availing of all the other invented positions, THEY are the free loaders and scroungers. They really pay for nothing, no petrol, food, car, basic bills all are covered by the blanket of 'expenses'. Their wages are a complete waste, and they do get far too much, those wages are never touched for necessities.

As for the Ministerial pensions - lifetime rewards in lieu of 1 full term in office. (They are rarely there, look at Oireachtas Report) The pensions they receive are unattainable for people after 40 years' employment, real employment minimum 40 hours per week with just ONE job.


The real slaves, the self employed spend a whole lifetime keeping head above water, in some cases providing employment, but the self employed have no safety net. In most cases the advice, around 2000 to 2005, of the Financial Advisors/Tax experts will ensure that some of the hardest working individuals in Ireland will have little or no pension after putting away everything they could afford. If you are not self employed, it may be hard to understand how difficult it is to keep the show on the road, and all the time the tax man hounding you as if you have THEIR money in your back pocket. Sometimes you may be hugely overdrawn, have hardly any money for food after you have paid employees, and you can get a tax bill stating you owe a figure which leaves you winded. It is like they are TRYING to close you down, instead of giving you leeway, the threats are outrageous, fines, legal action, take everything. YOu have no recourse, whether there are personal problems, or sickness is on you or your family, if they say you must pay, they will take everything if you don't. How then is this same ferocious animal of the Revenue so kind to these freeloaders, how is there a blind eye turned to where our tax is really wasted. Those billions gone on the Banks. Why is the Revenue not using their considerable force against people owing, for example, 647 million? I know I would have had nowhere to hide on this planet if I hadn't paid 15,000 euros a few years back.

I have so little respect for those treating the hard workers with such contempt. To tax the homes which have already generated huge tax for the Inland Revenue, every single aspect of buying or building a home is a benefit to the national coffers, and helping enterprise. Solicitors, auctioneers, hardware retail, the Banks and lending institutions.

We are seen by the Dail as slaves, as no more than the property of these abusers, rather than the ones who entrust them with this power and privilege. They have no interest in us other than as the means to provide them with their freeloading lifestyle. How dare they further burden us when they and their ilk caused this, when they - with nothing of benefit to offer - are still living very comfortably. They, even in a recession are not feeling the stress of paying bills, the glorious stream of taxpayers money just flows in, protecting them.

Ghandee

Andrew Doyle on the VB show last night...


When challenged as to how the latest budget had any kind of negative affect on him, based on his take home pay of €100k+ per annum....

'er.... Well there's the property Tax, obviously Vincent, then there's er... Em.... That is, you see... (looks up to the heaven's begging God to help him out) ah, student thing.....'



Even tried to play down his salary! VB had to remind him that it was 92k PLUS expenses.

They aren't living in the real world.



Enda will not be impressed, botched his lines/forgot his script.

spikethedog

barrackali wrote: »

The majority paid the household charge, and eventually you will pay the h charge, property tax and penalties...you and the others will all end up paying.

I don't pay my taxes so that others can evade them.

The 70% figure that Hogan puts out is skewed by the fact that a large percentage of that figure were landlords with multiple properties.
I seen one landlord with 190, yes 190 properties.
The figure for 'ordinary' people with just a family home who have registered I would put at less than 50%.

HabeasCorpus

donalg1 wrote: »

Not too far at all, maybe to an Internet Forum of some sort to mash the keyboard for a bit and claim to be "doing my bit"

I think the huge protests are showing a rising dissatisfaction with this culture of taxing the lower end to keep the fat cats fat and lazy. Irish people have been manipulated by fear, the media is largely to blame.

However, when everything is stripped back to the last, then you see the fight in people. I think we are reaching the point now. If not over the Property Tax, this will build the pressure and it will erupt over another thing, maybe something smaller, like more cuts to carers or children's allowance.

We are not a stupid people, as we are being treated. We are hard workers and trying to make the country do well. But I have seen more dissatisfaction in the last few months than ever before, even with CJ Haughy etc. It was always a second route to try Fine Gael for 'reform'. Now the Irish people are utterly disillusioned with the whole political system. For those in political life, this dissatisfaction building should be a red light. People have been despondent but after a time, they feel they have nothing to lose and one thing about the Irish, when it comes to it, they will fight.

A revolution usually occurs when those at the top push too hard, disregard the populace by placing on them huge burdens of taxes, expecting them to carry all the blame of bad decisions. When there are Imelda Marcos' walking all over us in their Jimmy Choos. Revolt occurs when the ruling forces believe the people are so downtrodden they will become slaves and will not take back their power. People unit against oppression. How far are we from that?

By the way, all these TDs have facebook pages where we can leave messages. I've just left one for Andrew Doyle, and I will be actively seeking out public representatives to bring up my grievances. It's time we did this, we pay them enough.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Spain and Portugal both have a longstanding property tax. Greece got one last year.

So what?
I am sure we have loads of things they haven't.

Ghandee

tayto lover wrote: »

So what?
I am sure we have loads of things they haven't.

Maybe we should follow their example with duty on drink and smokes too?

I was in Portugal in June/July last year, €1.50 a pint, 3 euro for twenty smokes.

We should surely emulate all their taxation policies if we're to copy the property one.

bgrizzley

spikethedog wrote: »

The 70% figure that Hogan puts out is skewed by the fact that a large percentage of that figure were landlords with multiple properties.
I seen one landlord with 190, yes 190 properties.
The figure for 'ordinary' people with just a family home who have registered I would put at less than 50%.

ah c'mon Spike, he was only a small landlord. look at this lad...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-landlord-pays-120000-in-property-tax-bill-for-400-homes-3203878.html

spikethedog

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Spain and Portugal both have a longstanding property tax. Greece got one last year.

Have you seen the price of food in these countries, the price of basic over the counter medications, the price of a pint, Spanish VAT rates (21%), Spanish VRT rate of 13% (Ireland, up to 36%)......the list of ripoff's in Ireland is endless.
Oh yea, the Spanish property tax includes waste collection too don't forget.

Chips Lovell

tayto lover wrote: »

So what?
I am sure we have loads of things they haven't.

Someone asked the question. I answered.

Bruthal

bgrizzley wrote: »

ah c'mon Spike, he was only a small landlord. look at this lad...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-landlord-pays-120000-in-property-tax-bill-for-400-homes-3203878.html

Phil must be keeping it in the family, judging by the writer of that paragraph of warnings.

spikethedog

bgrizzley wrote: »

ah c'mon Spike, he was only a small landlord. look at this lad...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-landlord-pays-120000-in-property-tax-bill-for-400-homes-3203878.html

From that report,
"Most of the 103,000 homeowners, mainly landlords, who got warning letters for not paying the controversial €100 household charge ignored them and now face prosecution within months."

So we can presume that 80 or 90,000 of the above mentioned are landlords with multiple properties.
Average them out at 5 properties each and that's 450,000 properties or thereabouts.
Makes a mockery of Phil Hogan's figures, doesn't it?

flutered

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Bertie Ahern, has free transport, free international travel, free cars, 24 hour protection, bodyguards at his home for the rest of his life. He probably has more things paid for his high life.

It just mind boggles me.
Does he pay tax.
No
Will he pay property tax.
No
Would it make a difference if he did.
No

Politicians in this country are the highest paid in the world. What the hell is that about? I never believed in voting and this is exactly why. Has anyone ever been to the Dail? it's empty 3/4 of the year and more than half the politicians don't turn up when they are supposed too.

Will I pay be paying property tax
No

Will I be paying Income tax
Never agreed to paying income tax.
Now I've simply had enough of all this shiit.
I refuse to support the system and struggle. It's just not morally right for any being on this planet to support a system that actively enslaves them of their birthrights and destroys their freedom.

is aherne tax complaint?, answers on the back of a stamp please.

spikethedog

flutered wrote: »

is aherne tax complaint?, answers on the back of a stamp please.

Back of brown envelope you mean......

donalg1

HabeasCorpus wrote: »

I think the huge protests are showing a rising dissatisfaction with this culture of taxing the lower end to keep the fat cats fat and lazy. Irish people have been manipulated by fear, the media is largely to blame.

However, when everything is stripped back to the last, then you see the fight in people. I think we are reaching the point now. If not over the Property Tax, this will build the pressure and it will erupt over another thing, maybe something smaller, like more cuts to carers or children's allowance.

We are not a stupid people, as we are being treated. We are hard workers and trying to make the country do well. But I have seen more dissatisfaction in the last few months than ever before, even with CJ Haughy etc. It was always a second route to try Fine Gael for 'reform'. Now the Irish people are utterly disillusioned with the whole political system. For those in political life, this dissatisfaction building should be a red light. People have been despondent but after a time, they feel they have nothing to lose and one thing about the Irish, when it comes to it, they will fight.

A revolution usually occurs when those at the top push too hard, disregard the populace by placing on them huge burdens of taxes, expecting them to carry all the blame of bad decisions. When there are Imelda Marcos' walking all over us in their Jimmy Choos. Revolt occurs when the ruling forces believe the people are so downtrodden they will become slaves and will not take back their power. People unit against oppression. How far are we from that?

By the way, all these TDs have facebook pages where we can leave messages. I've just left one for Andrew Doyle, and I will be actively seeking out public representatives to bring up my grievances. It's time we did this, we pay them enough.

I have been reading the same stuff on here since last year. People talking about a tipping point, mass civil unrest, riots in the streets, burning buildings and more. And all this was supposed to have been coming in 2012, so if I am now reading that it is on its way this year I will take it with a pinch of salt.

tayto lover

Ghandee wrote: »

Maybe we should follow their example with duty on drink and smokes too?

I was in Portugal in June/July last year, €1.50 a pint, 3 euro for twenty smokes.

We should surely emulate all their taxation policies if we're to copy the property one.

What about their VRT? Should we copy that too?

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Someone asked the question. I answered.

I noticed. It's what you didn't say I noticed more

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

I have been reading the same stuff on here since last year. People talking about a tipping point, mass civil unrest, riots in the streets, burning buildings and more. And all this was supposed to have been coming in 2012, so if I am now reading that it is on its way this year I will take it with a pinch of salt.

I've been reading fake arguments as to why some of the people in favour of this tax now for the same length of time.

Some folk even deny what sector they're employed in.

Seeing as how this tax will go some way to supporting their salaries, they should stop playing the 'impartial' card.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

I've been reading fake arguments as to why some of the people in favour of this tax now for the same length of time.

Some folk even deny what sector they're employed in.

Seeing as how this tax will go some way to supporting their salaries, they should stop playing the 'impartial' card.

And who might "they" be Ghandee?

I dont know of many around here that are in favour of this tax, I cant imagine there would be too many people that would be happy paying more tax. And I would think that paying extra tax would mean that ones income is reduced.

View

Ghandee wrote: »

Oops, what's this then?

Regional rate

The regional rate is set by Central Government.

Income from the regional rate is used to meet the costs of providing services like:
education
health
personal social services
housing
roads
sewerage
water

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/rates/money.asp

I'm quite well read up on how the rates system works in the north, and what it pays for thanks very much.

Really?

So, you of course spotted this, right?

Regional rates

What is the regional rate?

The Department of Finance and Personnel set the regional rates as a contribution towards services provided by central government departments.

Regional rates are the same throughout Northern Ireland.

What does it pay for?

Income from the regional rate is used to meet the costs of providing services like:

• education
• health
• personal social services
• housing
• roads
• sewerage
• water.

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/rates/regionalrates.asp

In other words, the regional rate is a contribution legally required to be paid by council rate payers in NI to central government for the services it provides.

Hence:
a) most of the services you have repeatedly listed as being provided by local government in NI are not in fact provided by local government there at all as can be seen above,
b) people in NI make a contribution from their rates to the services provided by their central government, just like we are required to make a contribution to the services our local government provides - yet, you laud them having to make a contribution, while you condemn us having to make a contribution - that is an utterly incoherent level of inconsistency.

Since you bring up the finances of those services, a quick examination of the finances of the NI's government departments shows that the regional rate contribution amounts to a little over 1 pound out of every 15 pounds that the NI government gets in Public Income.

Hence, the Regional Rate does NOT pay for those services listed above which are provided by the central government departments of NI. You might like to pretend it pays for them, it doesn't.

Rather those services are almost entirely paid for out of "Receipts from the United Kingdom Government" (to quote the accounts) which account for 13.37 pounds out of every 15 pounds the NI government gets in public income.

Given that both the UK population and UK income distribution is heavily skewed towards the SE of England then, as I said before, a large chunk of the monies being received from the UK government and being spent in NI on services such as those listed above ARE coming from people in places like Kent & Surrey. And, yes, those services can be good because they are being paid for with other people's monies rather than just those of people in NI.

All of which means, in the case of the RoI, in the absence of a "Surrey subsidy" for the services being provided by your local authority, people here will either: a) have to forego many of the services people take for granted in NI, or, b) have to put their hands in their pockets and pay either the current proposed local taxes or some other taxes (e.g. MUCH higher income tax).

And, since we were discussing them, that means the people of Foxrock are going to be paying for those services that DLR provides one way or another. Then again, the people of DLR have largely being paying up for the HHC, I believe, so maybe they - unlike you - accept that has to be done.

Lastly, your comment:

Three threads in, I'm surprised you didn't educate yourself though, instead of proclaiming to be knowledgeable on something you know nothing about.

would be clever were it not the case that you seem to be incapable of distinguishing between the differing levels of government in NI, the services they provide and the sources of financing for those services.

spikethedog

View wrote: »

All of which means, in the case of the RoI, in the absence of a "Surrey subsidy" for the services being provided by your local authority, people here will either: a) have to forego many of the services people take for granted in NI, or, b) have to put their hands in their pockets and pay either the current proposed local taxes or some other taxes (e.g. MUCH higher income tax).

I'd accept a MUCH higher income tax.
Have you ever heard of ability to pay?
Somebody with a big mortgage who has become unemployed most lightly won't have the ability to pay.
What do you suggest they do? Sell up at a huge loss and get the government to house them?
Take the ridiculous deferral option and pay hefty interest on a sum of money they can't afford to pay in the first place?
Put a rope around their neck?
Where does it end? and for what? To keep the third highest paid public service workers in Europe in their protected positions? To pay the politicians and top civil servants in a country in a bailout programme well above the European
average? To allow Eamon Gilmore 3 special advisors costing the country over €500k per annum? To give a bankrupt bank our money to use to shore up their pension pot?
Shall I go on? Enough is enough!

barrackali

donalg1 wrote: »

I have been reading the same stuff on here since last year. People talking about a tipping point, mass civil unrest, riots in the streets, burning buildings and more. And all this was supposed to have been coming in 2012, so if I am now reading that it is on its way this year I will take it with a pinch of salt.

The above nonsense won't happen, it was all madness to think they could avoid the charge....isn't going to work out well for them.

They seem to think "Don't Register"...well hello...they don't need 2...the revenue will have all the details they need to charge them. The Revenue now have access to their ESB/SKY/UPC and other utility company details, all those providers will be obliged to hand over the relevant information.

The best thing is....they will have it deducted directly from their salaries if they refuse to pay up.

Ghandee

View wrote: »

Really?

So, you of course spotted this, right?



http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/rates/regionalrates.asp

In other words, the regional rate is a contribution legally required to be paid by council rate payers in NI to central government for the services it provides.

Hence:
a) most of the services you have repeatedly listed as being provided by local government in NI are not in fact provided by local government there at all as can be seen above,
b) people in NI make a contribution from their rates to the services provided by their central government, just like we are required to make a contribution to the services our local government provides - yet, you laud them having to make a contribution, while you condemn us having to make a contribution - that is an utterly incoherent level of inconsistency.

Since you bring up the finances of those services, a quick examination of the finances of the NI's government departments shows that the regional rate contribution amounts to a little over 1 pound out of every 15 pounds that the NI government gets in Public Income.

Hence, the Regional Rate does NOT pay for those services listed above which are provided by the central government departments of NI. You might like to pretend it pays for them, it doesn't.

Rather those services are almost entirely paid for out of "Receipts from the United Kingdom Government" (to quote the accounts) which account for 13.37 pounds out of every 15 pounds the NI government gets in public income.

Given that both the UK population and UK income distribution is heavily skewed towards the SE of England then, as I said before, a large chunk of the monies being received from the UK government and being spent in NI on services such as those listed above ARE coming from people in places like Kent & Surrey. And, yes, those services can be good because they are being paid for with other people's monies rather than just those of people in NI.

All of which means, in the case of the RoI, in the absence of a "Surrey subsidy" for the services being provided by your local authority, people here will either: a) have to forego many of the services people take for granted in NI, or, b) have to put their hands in their pockets and pay either the current proposed local taxes or some other taxes (e.g. MUCH higher income tax).

And, since we were discussing them, that means the people of Foxrock are going to be paying for those services that DLR provides one way or another. Then again, the people of DLR have largely being paying up for the HHC, I believe, so maybe they - unlike you - accept that has to be done.

Lastly, your comment:



would be clever were it not the case that you seem to be incapable of distinguishing between the differing levels of government in NI, the services they provide and the sources of financing for those services.

We've been over this numerous times already, most recently I pointed it out to dxhound.

You do understand, that the property tax is paid in to a central fund yeah?

A central fund that gets divvied out as the govt sees fit (much like the UK system yeah?)

By your analogy, the people living in Dublin, will be subsidising the rest of the country, exactly like the rates system in the UK and how they prop up services in the north.

You're not going to win this argument about an unfair tax view, very little ground hasn't been covered at this stage.

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

And who might "they" be Ghandee?

I dont know of many around here that are in favour of this tax, I cant imagine there would be too many people that would be happy paying more tax. And I would think that paying extra tax would mean that ones income is reduced.

'They' would refer to people on this thread who have stated numerous times that they weren't public servants, yet they clearly are.


Do you fall into that category Donal?

Am Chile

barrackali wrote: »

The above nonsense won't happen, it was all madness to think they could avoid the charge....isn't going to work out well for them.

They seem to think "Don't Register"...well hello...they don't need 2...the revenue will have all the details they need to charge them. The Revenue now have access to their ESB/SKY/UPC and other utility company details, all those providers will be obliged to hand over the relevant information.

The best thing is....they will have it deducted directly from their salaries if they refuse to pay up.

As threatening as it sounds to people-there is still hundreds of thousands of people not registered-going through esb bills/records and finding someones name on a esb bill won,t be enough in itself to prove property ownership-as an esb bill could be in a tenants name-anyone who registered made it very easy for Revenue to deduct from their wages/social welfare as people would of registered their prsi number with registering oneself as the owner of a property.

If the Revenue are relying on the Household Charge database to collect the Property Tax – they will have a big problem

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/property-tax-some-more-details-emerging.html

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

'They' would refer to people on this thread who have stated numerous times that they weren't public servants, yet they clearly are.


Do you fall into that category Donal?

No I dont Ghandee do you?

This again Ghandee, alot of conspiracy theories here today, I would imagine if the Govt were to introduce a new tax on tin foil ownership you guys would rush away from this thread and start an actual protest somewhere.;)

But obviously you know who "they" are :rolleyes: and have some evidence to back up your claims. I only want to know who around here wants to pay extra taxes?

flutered

barrackali wrote: »

The above nonsense won't happen, it was all madness to think they could avoid the charge....isn't going to work out well for them.

They seem to think "Don't Register"...well hello...they don't need 2...the revenue will have all the details they need to charge them. The Revenue now have access to their ESB/SKY/UPC and other utility company details, all those providers will be obliged to hand over the relevant information.

The best thing is....they will have it deducted directly from their salaries if they refuse to pay up.

there is a long road to travel before they have each and every householder by the short and curleys, me, i have no notion of paying it, i am fighting cancer at the moment, so the revenue can oool their heels, btw when i pass away can i not by word of mouth say who is to get my gaff, they then do as i have done, not seek title to it.

Bullseye1

donalg1 wrote: »

I have been reading the same stuff on here since last year. People talking about a tipping point, mass civil unrest, riots in the streets, burning buildings and more. And all this was supposed to have been coming in 2012, so if I am now reading that it is on its way this year I will take it with a pinch of salt.

So you believe we haven't been suffering the worst financial markets since the great depression or that 175,000 people have lost their jobs in the construction industry.