Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

hmmm I dont think you are one to talk Ghandee now in all fairness, you seem to like digging around in other peoples posts too and bringing them in here dont you?

I for one believe it is relevant, you see if one poster is questioning the sanity of others well then I think it only proper to question the credentials of that poster when making such declarations.

Are you saying my examples aren't relevant?

(keep in mind, they were from the Irish economy)

Chips Lovell

Do you think the markets would lend to a country with such colossal debt? Would you??

They're already lending to us.

Ghandee wrote: »

The only solution is to write off the Bank Debt and then deal with the rest or suffer what is coming...

It's not related to the Property Tax, I know, but you want to default on approx. a quarter of our national debt because you think this will make people more likely to lend money to us? I think I see a flaw in this plan.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

They're already lending to us.



It's not related to the Property Tax, I know, but you want to default on approx. a quarter of our national debt because you think this will make people more likely to lend money to us? I think I see a flaw in this plan.

That's why I said

The only solution is to write off the Bank Debt and then deal with the rest or suffer what is coming...

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

That's why I said

In that case, you should probably look up what happens to countries who engage in a sovereign default. Argentina defaulted on $81 billion in 2001. They've been locked out of the international lending markets ever since.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

No the point is that we dont really have it that bad here at all in comparison to others, we moan here about not being able to afford sky movies or the newest iPhone, whereas some people live in a shack without water or electricity and with an open sewer runnig past their house.

Basically the point is we could be an awful lot worse off than we are and I for one am thankful for having it as good as we do.

I mean the irony is never lost on me when someone logs on to the internet to complain about how bad we have it here.

Grand, so no one needs to pay this charge, as we will never have it as bad as others.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

In that case, you should probably look up what happens to countries who engage in a sovereign default. Argentina defaulted on $81 billion in 2001. They've been locked out of the international lending markets ever since.

Iceland, closer to home, and a more recent event.

You may remember, two years ago Iceland was a mess. Its banks had borrowed, lent, and speculated recklessly. Iceland’s feds squirmed and winced. At first, the government decided it would do what Ireland was doing. It would rescue the banks, that is, it would bail out the banks’ lenders with public funds, but when the public caught on to what was going on, a referendum was held. Voters rejected the bailout as if they were voting against sin itself. More than 90% of voters cast ballots against a taxpayer bailout. We were impressed. We wrote about it. The “Patsy Revolt of 2009” we called it.

Unable to stick the voters with the losses, the government left the banks to default.

Was this the end of the world? Did Iceland slip below the North Atlantic waves, joining the Titanic on the chilly, dark bottom of the sea? Did commerce break down? Did the Icelandic money become worthless? Was this the end of time? Nope.

In Iceland, inflation fell from 18% down to 5% last year. The cost of insuring Icelandic debt fell to less than a third of the price in early 2009. Unemployment is barely 6%.

“Thanks to its rescue plan,” says the IMF, “the recession in Iceland has been less deep than expected and not worse than in the other countries deeply affected.”

How did they achieve this? Are the Icelanders smarter than the Europeans? Not exactly. They tried the typical dead-end solution. The trouble was, no one would lend Iceland more money. Once the public revolted, after realizing that it would be left holding the bag, the Icelandic feds had no choice. They had exhausted all the bad ideas. They were forced to go with a good one.

The foreign debt was consolidated into a few banks, which then went broke. The remaining banks were left intact, ready to keep the country’s financial machinery in
business.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2011/01/19/when-sovereign-default-is-a-really-attractive-option/

donalg1

Bruthal wrote: »

Grand, so no one needs to pay this charge, as we will never have it as bad as others.

No people should pay the charge and stop moaning about it, as we will never have it as bad as others.

Valetta

Ghandee wrote: »

Here's something to laugh at.

We are currently running a total debt of €169 Billion


Of this total debt, the banks were bailed out to the tune of €64 billion which is half of the total debt.

Glad you're not the minister for finance.

Ghandee

Valetta wrote: »

Glad you're not the minister for finance.

Me too, I'm happy enough in my own job Alastair.

Chips Lovell

Iceland didn't do what you're proposing to do. It didn't engage in a sovereign default.

Furthermore, while it let its banks fail, it then re-established new banks and re-capitalised them to the tune of around 30 per cent of its GDP.

To put this in context, 30 per cent of Ireland's GDP in 2009 would have been around €48 billion.

Their banking bailout bill may go up depending on the outcome of some international court cases as the British government is trying to recover money lost by British depositors in Icelandic banks.

Valetta

Ghandee wrote: »

Me too, I'm happy enough in my own job Alastair.

Post reported.

I don't like being falsley accused of re-registering.

Ghandee

Valetta wrote: »

Post reported.

I don't like being falsley accused of re-registering.

Where?

I'm using a phone, auto spell has a mind of its own.

Guilty conscience or something?

Bullseye1

donalg1 wrote: »

No people should pay the charge and stop moaning about it, as we will never have it as bad as others.

This is nonsense. I have no objection to the property tax in principal but if you hand money over to government it should be spent wisely and for the benefit of the tax payer not to improve working conditions in PS pay and increasing numbers in the PS. People are sick of no accountability in how their money is wasted:

1. Voting machines.
2. Bottle bank lands bought at hugely inflated prices using public funds.
3. Wastage in the HSE running into hundreds of millions.
4. Dublin County Council wasting almost 50 million already on the waste incinerator and then our own Minister for Environment doing everything in his power to ensure it does not go ahead because he was afraid of not getting re-elected.
etc
etc

If your happy to hand over your money and look for nothing in return THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS and I respect that.....but where do you get off telling people to shut up and pay up.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

No people should pay the charge and stop moaning about it, as we will never have it as bad as others.

Have you disconnected your sky/upc? Broadband? Are you in serious mortgage arrears? Are you struggling badly week to week? When you answer yes to all the above, then what you say will have more value. Because you are likely saying what you say above, to or about others much worse off than yourself here, in Ireland, in a pontificating sort of way.

donalg1

Bullseye1 wrote: »

This is nonsense. I have no objection to the property tax in principal but if you hand money over to government it should be spend wisely and for the benefit of the tax payer not to improve working conditions in PS pay and increasing numbers in the PS. People are sick of no accountability in how their money is wasted:

1. Voting machines.
2. Bottle bank lands bought at hugely inflated prices using public funds.
3. Wastage in the HSE running into hundreds of millions.
4. Dublin County Council wasting almost 50 million already on the waste incinerator and then our own Minister for Environment doing everything in his power to ensure it does not go ahead because he was afraid of not getting re-elected.
etc
etc

If your happy to hand over your money and look for nothing in return THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS and I respect that.....but where do you get off telling people to shut up and pay up.

It was a tongue in cheek response to another poster if you used it in the context it was originally used in. I couldnt care less what you or anyone else does with their money.

The point is I find it awful ironic that some here whip out their phone or laptop log on to the internet and moan about how bad we have it in this country. Anyone that cant see the irony in that needs to wake up and look beyond these shores.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

No the point is that we dont really have it that bad here at all in comparison to others, we moan here about not being able to afford sky movies or the newest iPhone, whereas some people live in a shack without water or electricity and with an open sewer runnig past their house.

Basically the point is we could be an awful lot worse off than we are and I for one am thankful for having it as good as we do.

I mean the irony is never lost on me when someone logs on to the internet to complain about how bad we have it here.

Thats down to the difference between first world and third world countries and not how much people are being forced to cough up from there disposable income. It is completely acceptable to avail of first world amenities (that we pay for with our dispoable income by choice) aslong as you can pay for them. What is not acceptable is a specific section of society, that already supply the state with a satisfactory percentage of there income to live as independent from the state as possible, is now being targeted for there already quickly diminishing disposable income all because the people that are being supplied with the taxes have no god damn clue how to prioritise spending, investigate properly and keep there noses clean by not consistently lying or swindeling money.

Let them run with what they have, force them to prioritise. if they have to revert to spending 30 billion there is no logic in giving them 40 billion, the non essential cuts will never be made and this public sector and political mess will never go away.

Bullseye1

There will always be people worse off than ourselves. Its nothing to do with this debate.

Ghandee

Still confused I see too?

Clearly you have been reading me wrong if you think I am promoting the HHC or am a supporter of it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82712632&postcount=4579

I think we all 'may have read you wrongly'

Here you contradict yourself again.

donalg1 wrote: »

No people should pay the charge and stop moaning about it, as we will never have it as bad as others.

Do you support it, or do you not?

Your posts are clearly muddled up.

donalg1

Bruthal wrote: »

Have you disconnected your sky/upc? Broadband? Are you in serious mortgage arrears? Are you struggling badly week to week? When you answer yes to all the above, then what you say will have more value. Because you are likely saying what you say above, to or about others much worse off than yourself here, in Ireland, in a pontificating sort of way.

Have those that claim to be broke done all of the above? I wouldnt think so, I know of a few people claiming to be broke yet still spending all day on their broadband and iPhones posting about all the places they have been and the things they have done whilst supposedly being broke.

There is actual poverty and then there is something I refer to as the new poverty which is a condition I attribute to many in Ireland today. It all goes back to relativity.

Bruthal

Ghandee wrote: »

Still confused I see too?




http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82712632&postcount=4579

I think we all 'may have read you wrongly'

Here you contradict yourself again.





Do you support it, or do you not?

You're posts are clearly muddled up.

He might have genuine concerns about others not being 100% law abiding like himself.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Still confused I see too?




http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82712632&postcount=4579

I think we all 'may have read you wrongly'

Here you contradict yourself again.





Do you support it, or do you not?

Your posts are clearly muddled up.

I refer to my post after them that you conveniently left out there Ghandee. :rolleyes:

No I do not support the HHC as I have outlined all along, and even if I was genuinely telling someone they should pay it doesnt mean I support it, it means I believe people should not break laws. See the difference? (almost certainly wont see it, #blinkered)

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Have those that claim to be broke done all of the above?

But it is you who says others have it worse off than us in africa. But you are saying this to people worse off than you. You dont see the problem with that, so you are incapable of grasping the concept.

I wouldnt think so, I know of a few people claiming to be broke yet still spending all day on their broadband and iPhones posting about all the places they have been and the things they have done whilst supposedly being broke.

Well you made it clear you believe no one is broke, before in the thread(s), and clearly support the notion that people should spend every cent of disposable income on tax if it is asked of them.

There is actual poverty and then there is something I refer to as the new poverty which is a condition I attribute to many in Ireland today. It all goes back to relativity.

The strongest arguments in any debate, likely come from the experienced.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

I refer to my post after them that you conveniently left out there Ghandee. :rolleyes:

No I do not support the HHC as I have outlined all along, and even if I was genuinely telling someone they should pay it doesnt mean I support it, it means I believe people should not break laws. See the difference? (almost certainly wont see it, #blinkered)

I see you thanked post 4732. But it was a go at your 100% record.

Not a hope you proclaim you tell others to pay because its the law. Thats total BS. I agree with Ghandee on his claim that you support the HHC for what it is.

Ghandee

Bruthal wrote: »

I see you thanked post 4732. But it was a go at your 100% record.

Not a hope you proclaim you tell others to pay because its the law. Thats total BS. I agree with Ghandee on his claim that you support the HHC for what it is.

Donal supports the notion that those less of than he is should only exist to have an income that provides shelter and food.

donalg1

Bruthal wrote: »

But it is you who says others have it worse off than us in africa. But you are saying this to people worse off than you. You dont see the problem with that, so you are incapable of grasping the concept.


Well you made it clear you believe no one is broke, before in the thread(s), and clearly support the notion that people should spend every cent of disposable income on tax if it is asked of them.


The strongest arguments in any debate, likely come from the experienced.

How do you know who is worse off than me?

donalg1

Bruthal wrote: »

I see you thanked post 4732. But it was a go at your 100% record.

Not a hope you proclaim you tell others to pay because its the law. Thats total BS. I agree with Ghandee on his claim that you support the HHC for what it is.

Ok you agree with Ghandee then that really means nothing at the end of the day.

I think I am the one best placed to decide whether or not I support something.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Donal supports the notion that those less of than he is should only exist to have an income that provides shelter and food.

Really?

Bruthal

Ghandee wrote: »

Donal supports the notion that those less of than he is should only exist to have an income that provides shelter and food.

Yes, he says those less well off than him in Ireland, only need to look to Africa to see people worse than themselves. Give every cent you have to tax, because other people are starving, while he himself is nice and comfortable compared to the people he is saying this to.

Im half expecting the E = MC^2 to come out next.

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

Really?

Yes.

Bruthal

donalg1 wrote: »

Ok you agree with Ghandee then that really means nothing at the end of the day.

I think I am the one best placed to decide whether or not I support something.

Are you pro or anti property tax?