Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

There will have to be both extensive new taxes and charges and massive cuts in public spending. We have barely started to deal with the problem yet.

Our deficit equates in ball park figures to about €10,000 per worker (a bit more at the start of the crisis, a bit less now). And it is a deficit so this is not a once of payment. We need to find this amount per worker, EVERY year!

A property tax will be a picnic compared to what we eventually will have to endure.


Proving that everyone has to make sacrifices IS symbolic. You asked me would it make a meaningful difference. In terms of its impact on the deficit, it won’t.


No he is not. There is no conflict in what we are saying. It can be cheaper to buy than to rent (as I say) but the consequence of buying (repaying the capital) can have a seriously negative impact on your quality of life (as DoesNotCompute says)

€10,000 a year per worker ?......overspent right.....simple .....cut spending.

Ye pro tax guys are talking out through your colons....1.8 million homeowners could all sell their homes , 600,000 of us could rent, 600,000 could apply for social housing, and the other 600,000 could live in the ditches !!.....just think of the money we would be saving !!!...excellent plan....and the best bit is the banks and deficit would be f*cked up even more...guys, ease up on the wacky for your own sakes....

darkhorse

Izzy Skint wrote: »

€10,000 a year per worker ?......overspent right.....simple .....cut spending.
QUOTE]

Who was in charge of the money, Charles Ponzi--Bernie Madoff.:D:D

lugha

Hijpo wrote: »

How about if we go with your idea and keep the house but only pay the interest because that way its cheaper to own your home than it is to rent

If you could persuade your bank to give you an interest only mortgage then yes you should. You would pay about €550 in interest payments but about €850 in rent for the same house. Do you dispute this?

Of course the banks won’t give interest only loans to many of us ,they will want you to repay the capital as well. But this amounts to being forced to save a big chunk of money every month. You “savings” aren’t reflected in a bank balance but in the increased proportion of your home that you own outright.

And many would prefer, or even need, to have this “saved” money now, and not in 30 years time when they can recover them by selling or bequeathing their houses.

If we were a bit more rational in our attitude to home ownership, more of us would think this out and decide that whatever about benefiting over the long term, we do not want to burden ourselves with a large mortgage that would impact severely on our standard of living. Not to mention that it immunizes you from the delights of negative equity.

There are plenty of people around who learned this lesson the hard way and bitterly regret ever buying a home.

Anyway, none of this has much to do with property tax. This will likely be passed on to renters so the difference between renting and buying will remain the same.

bgrizzley wrote: »

the majority of homeowners in this country probably own their house outright (or almost). the biggest threat to them losing it, is this property tax...

Only about one third of houses, if memory serves me, are mortgage free. Happily home repossession is not very prominent in Ireland and it is this, and not the fact that you “own” your home that gives you protection. You seem not to appreciate the distinction between being the legal owner of your home and being the outright owner. Repossession remains a (small) risk if you are only the former.

This property tax? Well we don’t yet know what shape it will take. So I don’t quite see how you determine it is the biggest threat, ahead of crippling mortgage levels and (were they to return) large increases in interest rates.

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Ye pro tax guys are talking out through your colons....

Pro-tax guys? That would be everyone posting here except you Izzy. You are paddling a lone canoe with your suggestion of spending cuts only. Even those who are not “pro-tax” have proposed as an alternative ….. raising income tax! (I know, I know! :pac:))

darkhorse wrote: »

Who was in charge of the money, Charles Ponzi--Bernie Madoff

Unfortunately there is still no willingness for us, the great unwashed, to accept any responsibility for the mess we are in.

Who was in charge? The people we choose in free and fair elections to be in charge were.

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

Originally Posted by bgrizzley
the majority of homeowners in this country probably own their house outright (or almost). the biggest threat to them losing it, is this property tax...


Only about one third of houses, if memory serves me, are mortgage free. Happily home repossession is not very prominent in Ireland and it is this, and not the fact that you “own” your home that gives you protection. You seem not to appreciate the distinction between being the legal owner of your home and being the outright owner. Repossession remains a (small) risk if you are only the former.

I think you are deliberately obfuscating Lugha, either that or you agree with me and are just arguing for the sake of it...

if you read my post and take into account the addendum "or almost" id bet that takes in the majority(although subjective)

And how the feck does someone who owns their home outright get repossessed? is this something like that imaginary rent you were talking about?

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

If you could persuade your bank to give you an interest only mortgage then yes you should. You would pay about €550 in interest payments but about €850 in rent for the same house. Do you dispute this?

Of course the banks won’t give interest only loans to many of us ,they will want you to repay the capital as well. But this amounts to being forced to save a big chunk of money every month. You “savings” aren’t reflected in a bank balance but in the increased proportion of your home that you own outright.

And many would prefer, or even need, to have this “saved” money now, and not in 30 years time when they can recover them by selling or bequeathing their houses.

If we were a bit more rational in our attitude to home ownership, more of us would think this out and decide that whatever about benefiting over the long term, we do not want to burden ourselves with a large mortgage that would impact severely on our standard of living. Not to mention that it immunizes you from the delights of negative equity.

There are plenty of people around who learned this lesson the hard way and bitterly regret ever buying a home.

Anyway, none of this has much to do with property tax. This will likely be passed on to renters so the difference between renting and buying will remain the same.

yes i do dispute this on the basis that the interest only situation is void as banks will not change to interest only, especially not AIB who "need to be profitable"
Lets have a discussion on what is instead of what could be.

The only people i have ever heard of that were accepted for interest only mortgages were landlords buying multiple properties and using the rent to pay the interest, people associated with banks and everyones prick of the year Minister Phil Hogan suprise suprise
The chances of joe soap changing to interest only, at any stage, were slim and are now completely obliterated.
So that fact of the matter is, was and always will be owning a home and paying mortgage repayments, compulsary home insurrance, compulsary life insuarnce, charges on both insurances that go to the government, maintenance costs footed entirely by the home owner, the ability for these repayments to increase more often than decrease makes it dearer than renting, especially compared to LA renting.

If you want to close the gap in spending, charge the people the money is being spent on or stop spending so much money.

Buford Tannen

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Any socialist worth their salt ought to support a property tax. It's bizarre how all the self professed working class heroes on this thread support property ownership yet oppose a property tax. Seems to be a distinctly Irish phenomenon.

Property tax supporter calling other property tax supporters solialist's,they'll love that

Ghandee

Buford Tannen wrote: »

Property tax supporter calling other property tax supporters solialist's,they'll love that

I was actually just thinking that last night lol.

DNC has had a radical shift from the right to the left.

I mean, he supports the property tax, therefore according to him, he's a 'socialist worth his salt'?

Doesnotcompute, apt user name. :cool:

Chips Lovell

Is there something wrong with being called a socialist?

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Is there something wrong with being called a socialist?

Nothing at all.

But I don't get the feeling some of the pro tax folk on this thread would consider themselves socialists.

I know two very pro Tax posters on this thread have openly criticized 'socialists' and the socialist party.

Chips Lovell

Well first of all, I don't think DNC said that supporting the property tax made you a socialist. He simply said that if you were a socialist, it would make sense to support one.

It is possible that people from different ends of the political spectrum can agree on some things.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Well first of all, I don't think DNC said that supporting the property tax made you a socialist. He simply said that if you were a socialist, it would make sense to support one.

It is possible that people from different ends of the political spectrum can agree on some things.

Of course it is, fully agree.

However, the socialist party do not agree with his analysis.

http://www.socialistparty.net/household-charge

Don't Register - Don't Pay We won't paytobailout the bankers andspeculators From January 1st 2012 the government are introducing a new Household Tax of €100 for all households, whether you own a modest bedsit, or a massive mansion. From there it will rise in 2013, before splitting into a Water Tax and a Property Tax on the family home in 2014, according to Labour & Fine Gael's programme for government. From €100, it will quickly rise to €1,000+. Far from improving services, this will just go to paying off the gambling debts of the very bankers and speculators who caused this crisis.

The Socialist Party, as a founding member of the Campaign Against the Household and Water Taxes, believes a mass campaign of non-payment can defeat this unjust tax, just like we beat the water tax in the past. If millions of people boycott this tax, as part of an organised movement, we can make the charge uncollectable, and threats of court appearances and fines unworkable. This is our chance to not just defeat an attempt to further rob ordinary people, but to strike a blow against the entire failed austerity

Chips Lovell

The Socialist Party aren't the only socialists in Ireland though (and indeed they lie on the very extreme end of, if not beyond, what most people consider socialism). Labour agree with it, for example.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The Socialist Party aren't the only socialists in Ireland though (and indeed they lie on the very extreme end of, if not beyond, what most people consider socialism). Labour agree with it, for example.

Labours manifesto had a much different tax in mind though, one that would have targeted developers and investors sitting on millions (perhaps billions) of land banks. (as in theirs was site valued)

They also didn't envisage any such tax until 2014, perhaps things would have started to slightly improve by then in the economy.

I don't believe in any of the two though, not while these taxes have no direct link to services received. (see domestic rates in the north)

Id gladly pay into a system like domestic rates, if we had an array of services tied to the charge.

Ghandee

This is just getting ridiculous now lol!

Is this really what you want to support?

Thousands of householders who have paid the Household Charge have received warning letters on non-payment in error.


Local Government Management Agency urged people who have received such letters to make contact with the agency.

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Paul McSweeney said if householders do not notify the agency, they will receive a second letter and "technically" could still face a penalty.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1025/household-charge-letters.html

They're doing a better 'anti hhc campaign' than anyone else could ever hope to do!


Not a clue.

Hijpo

John Halligan sent this to Phil

To ask the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the financial cost associated with the recent letters posted to homes in Waterford city this week in relation to the household charge; from whom the list of names was obtained; if his attention has been drawn to the fact that many of these letters were forwarded to persons who are now deceased; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

- John Halligan.

And got this reply

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Mr. P. Hogan)


The communication and advertising campaign for the Household Charge is a matter for the Local Government Management Agency (LGMA) and the local authorities. The Agency and local authorities are seeking to maximise compliance among liable owners with the Household Charge, and thereby secure much needed revenue to pay for essential local services. I am also informed by the LGMA that during the week beginning 15 October, Waterford City Council issued 8,500 letters in relation to the Household Charge.


Currently no single database exists in Ireland of registered property owners. The collection of the Household Charge via a self-assessment declaration provides for the collation of such information in relation to residential property, and local authorities are continuing to identify undeclared properties through appropriate data sharing provisions. Significant efforts have been expended in matching self-declared information with other datasets and in refining the resulting data.

I understand that the addresses and names used in the letters which are currently being issued by Local Authorities, including Waterford City, reminding people to pay the Household Charge, have been based on a data matching exercise with the Property Registration Authority.

I understand that every effort has been made to try and ensure letters are sent to current property owners. However there are some instances where letters are being sent to previous owners of properties, due to the fact that the more recent property owners may not have registered their property with the Authority or the transfer of the property has not been completed. Thus in some cases the information contained within these datasets might not have been updated with the most recent and relevant details. As a consequence the data matching exercise can give rise to situations in which people may receive a letter where they have already paid the charge.

I understand that the letters which issued in recent weeks invite recipients who are not liable, or who have previously paid the Household Charge, or in the event of inaccuracy or error, to contact the Household Charge Bureau to allow the Agency to update their records accordingly.

Am Chile

There
were some heated exchanges in the Council Chamber as South Tipp Councillors
rejected a motion calling on the Government not to proceed with a property
tax.


The
motion from Fianna Fail’s Sylvia Cooney Sheehan was ultimately defeated by 10
votes to 6 - all ten votes against were from Fine Gael Councillors.


Those
in favour of the motion were 3 Fianna Fail, 2 Workers & Unemployed
Action Group and 1 Labour.


Whether
or not the motion would have been carried had all 26 Councillors been present
for the vote is a moot point.

http://www.tippfm.com/news/detail/south_tipperary_councillors_back_imposition_of_property_tax
Fianna Fail firmly on the bandwagon now against a property tax those in FG who vote down such motions shoud watch the their council seats--Just a thought regarding those who support a property tax tds/councillors since they want to hit peoples pockets, what if people were to organise to hit their pockets to see how they might like it-for FG or Lab members who are in favour of property taxes if they happen to own a small business or shop in an area-what if there was an organised boycott of their businesses in retaliation for supporting property taxes-if someone was to create a facebook page with a list of small businesses/shops owned by FG/Lab members calling on the public not to shop at any the listed premises-what if some of us were to start placing pickets outside some of their premises in big numbers,once people would see a picket outside somewhere they would more then likely be put off shopping there, causing a FG/Lab member to lose money therefore hitting their pockets like they want to hit ours-just a thought in mind.

donalg1

Am Chile wrote: »

http://www.tippfm.com/news/detail/south_tipperary_councillors_back_imposition_of_property_tax
Fianna Fail firmly on the bandwagon now against a property tax those in FG who vote down such motions shoud watch the their council seats--Just a thought regarding those who support a property tax tds/councillors since they want to hit peoples pockets, what if people were to organise to hit their pockets to see how they might like it-for FG or Lab members who are in favour of property taxes if they happen to own a small business or shop in an area-what if there was an organised boycott of their businesses in retaliation for supporting property taxes-if someone was to create a facebook page with a list of small businesses/shops owned by FG/Lab members calling on the public not to shop at any the listed premises-what if some of us were to start placing pickets outside some of their premises in big numbers,once people would see a picket outside somewhere they would more then likely be put off shopping there, causing a FG/Lab member to lose money therefore hitting their pockets like they want to hit ours-just a thought in mind.

Ah come on seriously why in the world would Fianna Fail be against a property tax do you think? It wouldnt be to try and boost their popularity by any chance in the hope of getting back into power at the next election. Cant believe some people are actually buying into this nonsense, bet they would be stupid enough to vote FF next time too!!

People seem to forget who were in power when the Country went down the jacks which has led us to this austerity and the very property tax they now say they dont agree with, bit late there I'm afraid FF.

Am Chile

donalg1 wrote: »

Ah come on seriously why in the world would Fianna Fail be against a property tax do you think? It wouldnt be to try and boost their popularity by any chance in the hope of getting back into power at the next election. Cant believe some people are actually buying into this nonsense, bet they would be stupid enough to vote FF next time too!!

People seem to forget who were in power when the Country went down the jacks which has led us to this austerity and the very property tax they now say they dont agree with, bit late there I'm afraid FF.

I can certainly see through their motives-As I said before in a previous post see link below-if Fine Gael go ahead with this property tax and not subside it with another alternative revenue raising measure-I fear the long term consequences will be Fianna Fail returned to power at the next general election with Fianna Fail pledging to the electorate to abolish property taxes if elected.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81187309&postcount=9486

Steven81

Joe Duffy will sort it all out, people do love a good moan, makes great entertainment.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Ah come on seriously why in the world would Fianna Fail be against a property tax do you think? It wouldnt be to try and boost their popularity by any chance in the hope of getting back into power at the next election. Cant believe some people are actually buying into this nonsense, bet they would be stupid enough to vote FF next time too!!

People seem to forget who were in power when the Country went down the jacks which has led us to this austerity and the very property tax they now say they dont agree with, bit late there I'm afraid FF.

Well i got the impression that some of the Pro's were of the opinion that the property tax was proposed as a coalition compromise. Now that the other parties are against the property tax the ones that get elected cant use the excuse of a coalition compromise if they try bring it in again. Bye bye property tax and the poxy HHC and its fines with it.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Our deficit equates in ball park figures to about €10,000 per worker (a bit more at the start of the crisis, a bit less now). And it is a deficit so this is not a once of payment. We need to find this amount per worker, EVERY year!

I just had an idea, lugha. Send some of the revenue staff to each location of the SVdeP, also send some of them to all the soup kitchens around the country, so that they can collect the €10,000, at the door of each location, from these people.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Who was in charge? The people we choose in free and fair elections to be in charge were.

I get that you like to see your own words upon the screen, but just before you spout any more of this crap(most of which I really felt the need to delete) about "thepeople we chose", I just want you to know that I did'nt chose them.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

Well i got the impression that some of the Pro's were of the opinion that the property tax was proposed as a coalition compromise. Now that the other parties are against the property tax the ones that get elected cant use the excuse of a coalition compromise if they try bring it in again. Bye bye property tax and the poxy HHC and its fines with it.

No chance of the HHC going or property tax for that matter thinking so is just wishful really.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

No chance of the HHC going or property tax for that matter thinking so is just wishful really.

So if all parties that have a chance of getting into power are against it and the troika isnt insisting on it, what are they going to do with it?
I would predict people would be tipped over the edge after more blatant lying as they have clearly stated how against the tax they are.

darkhorse

Hijpo wrote: »

John Halligan sent this to Phil


And got this reply

[/B]

In other words, will you do our job for us, cause we hav'nt a clue.

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

Cant believe some people are actually buying into this nonsense, bet they would be stupid enough to vote FF next time too!!

Why can't you believe it, did'nt the majority buy in to the nonsense that FG was spouting, and they were stupid enough to vote for them and put them at the helm.

lugha

bgrizzley wrote: »

if you read my post and take into account the addendum "or almost" id bet that takes in the majority(although subjective)

Well I think you would lose your bet! As I said, about one third of homes are mortgage-free which means that a clear majority of 67% (Am Chile would call this vast! ) are not. And 34% is not almost, or anywhere in the vicinity of almost.

Why exactly you are trying to play down the very real mortgage crisis is not clear to me but to suggest that a mortgage payment of perhaps €1,500 per month won’t cause a problem but a property tax payment of perhaps €500 per year will, is simply daft.

lugha wrote: »

You seem not to appreciate the distinction between being the legal owner of your home and being the outright owner. Repossession remains a (small) risk if you are only the former.

bgrizzley wrote: »

And how the feck does someone who owns their home outright get repossessed?

It seems you don’t appreciate the distinction between former and latter either.

darkhorse wrote: »

……but just before you spout any more of this crap(most of which I really felt the need to delete) about "the people we chose", I just want you to know that I did'nt chose them.

You’re deleting what I post???? That’s a good trick! How do you do that? :P

As for who the people (and darkhorse is not the sum total of the people) chose? Well I could have sworn blue that FF were ELECTED as the biggest party in the state right through the boom years up until 2011. What’s your understanding of how they came to be in power?

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

Well I think you would lose your bet! As I said, about one third of homes are mortgage-free which means that a clear majority of 67% (Am Chile would call this vast! ) are not. And 34% is not almost, or anywhere in the vicinity of almost.

Why exactly you are trying to play down the very real mortgage crisis is not clear to me but to suggest that a mortgage payment of perhaps €1,500 per month won’t cause a problem but a property tax payment of perhaps €500 per year will, is simply daft.





It seems you don’t appreciate the distinction between former and latter either.



You’re deleting what I post???? That’s a good trick! How do you do that? :P

As for who the people (and darkhorse is not the sum total of the people) chose? Well I could have sworn blue that FF were ELECTED as the biggest party in the state right through the boom years up until 2011. What’s your understanding of how they came to be in power?

you still havent read my original post, get back to me when you do;)



edit
i can see where we are at cross purposes on the first statement, i meant almost paid off, you took it i was saying the complete numbers of mortgages paid off was in the majority (i wasnt, so i still reckon i would win my bet;))


edit edit
id still love to know how you think the bank could take a house after they have been paid. if you are correct this means my parents house is at risk

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

Well I could have sworn blue that FF were ELECTED as the biggest party in the state right through the boom years up until 2011. What’s your understanding of how they came to be in power?

IMO pure greed on the part of the electorate. the same kind of greed where the well off expect the hard pressed to pay a property tax on their modest homes.

darkhorse

Steven81 wrote: »

Joe Duffy will sort it all out, people do love a good moan, makes great entertainment.

Are we to take your post to mean that you had a good giggle at the fact that a woman, after paying the charge, received a letter in her and her husbands name, and her husband dead, they tell her to send €25 and a death cert for her husband, then her son, who is living with her since the father died, also received a letter, which it was discovered was actually sent to his grandfather, who is dead for the past 26 years. Seems to me that they are having a giraffe at the whole population, and wasting thousands of(taxpayers) euro's. And you think this great entertainment?:mad::mad::mad: