Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

pitkan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Give me the figures you have for how many have paid and not paid.

I will give you an estimated figure of how many have not paid.

It is about 1.2 million.

This is based on the fact that the majority of mortgages taken out during the pre bubble period would have necessitated two people per mortgage.

Yeah sure, ask for your link. There isn't one.

That's a hell of a lot of votes.

dxhound2005

pitkan wrote: »

I will give you an estimated figure of how many have not paid.

It is about 1.2 million.

This is based on the fact that the majority of mortgages taken out during the pre bubble period would have necessitated two people per mortgage.

Yeah sure, ask for your link. There isn't one.

That's a hell of a lot of votes.

Like anyone else I can only go with what is published. This is from a newspaper report at the end of December.

A total of 1.126 million properties registered for the charge - including 22,334 waivers - which saw €113.35m collected in revenue for local authorities.


Your figures will be good news for the government as all of the evaders will have to pay €200 each.

pitkan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Like anyone else I can only go with what is published. This is from a newspaper report at the end of December.

A total of 1.126 million properties registered for the charge - including 22,334 waivers - which saw €113.35m collected in revenue for local authorities.


Your figures will be good news for the government as all of the evaders will have to pay €200 each.

You really have it all summed up then.
You missed the point completely. 1.2million people (my estimate) is based on that one or the other of the named mortgagees are liable for the charge but as neither of them have paid....well, that's 1.2 million votes as well.

Incidentally, there is a lot up disruption coming down the line soon from the PS. The non paying HHC people are a thorn in this Governments side, the money from which is going to the upkeep of the PS lifestyle.

I have attended 6 HHC protests in the past 12 months including the Gardai gaffe one when the FG Ard Fheis was on. And, I hope there will be many more this year.
Dont be put off by the 'small' turnouts at these protests. There is a groundswell of support from the non attendees.

dxhound2005

flutered wrote: »

add to the above, under the cloud of the knacker burgers, joan burton brought in lrglistation to allow her department to deduct the house hold charge from the dole and all other social welfare payments, now we have the senario where a homeowner in negitave liquity, unable to pay their morgage while unemployed having the household charge deducted from their dole money, also the disabled probaply the hardest hit by the last few budgets having their household charge deducted from their megre living allowance, what happened outside the dail will be replicated all over the country.

There is help available, see Number 8 here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2013/revenue/index.pdf

Also even before HHC, Mortgage Interest Supplement was available to certain people.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Like anyone else I can only go with what is published. This is from a newspaper report at the end of December.

A total of 1.126 million properties registered for the charge - including 22,334 waivers - which saw €113.35m collected in revenue for local authorities.


Your figures will be good news for the government as all of the evaders will have to pay €200 each.

There has been multiple cases of landlords with a multitude of properties registering and the govt have made each of their properties count as separate entities also, less we forget.

No one believes the figures anymore anyways, sure not that long ago we had Bondholder Noonan, contradict big bad Phil by a figure of 300,000.

Genuine mistake, or genuine incompetence?

Admit it DX, Hogan and Co don't know the difference in their arse and their elbow.

Le_Dieux

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Ghandee, i agree, protesting outside TD's homes is necessary and should be just one of the weapons in our arsenal....what we will need to defeat this is mass protest / civil disobedience on a regular basis.

I have read through the lpt legislation, those bastards have handed this over to revenue, they have covered all their bases (or so they think), they have introduced / changed laws to allow them to do this. They are targetting paye workers primarily, these will be the first to be hit. Employers will obey any legislation (i work for a muti-national and they will do whatever revenue say believe me), in effect, they may be able to bypass the homeowner altogether. I can go out and protest on the street but I have no influence over my employer. Govt. fcukers know this, they seem to have us by the short and curlies...
If this ends up with my employer deducing money from me without my consent I will go beserk...my anger will multiply but none of it will be directed towards my employer, it will all be towards the GOVT. ....FINE GAEL AND LABOUR TD'S.

It never ceases to amaze me that when it comes to raising tax revenue how inventive / ingenious / active these fcukers can be.....on the other hand it can take them decades to act on other serious issues....but then these other issues don't raise revenue for them !!!
This lpt is basically a method for the gutless, useless govt. to reduce the need for greater spending cuts which they are unwilling / unable or afraid to introduce...they are incapable of breaking contracts, taking on unions, cutting salaries and pensions , reform, streamlining, increasing productivity etc.

We will have to be prepared for "action" by a large number of people...it is the only way to defeat this act of treason on the Irish people.

Somehow, I think we'll be waiting a LONG time for Mayo CC to attach rates on FG's office, home of none other than Kenny. As far as I am concerned that's a damn disgrace! They pay no rates, yet the charity shops DO...I know, I know, they have CEO's getting a fortune, but that's another matter.

Revolution is what's needed....wipe the slate CLEAN, stop all these crazy salaries, perks, pensions etc. They think SFA about us people in the street - and I include the dv's and donal's of this world too.

MadYaker

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Ghandee, i agree, protesting outside TD's homes is necessary and should be just one of the weapons in our arsenal....what we will need to defeat this is mass protest / civil disobedience on a regular basis.

I have read through the lpt legislation, those bastards have handed this over to revenue, they have covered all their bases (or so they think), they have introduced / changed laws to allow them to do this. They are targetting paye workers primarily, these will be the first to be hit. Employers will obey any legislation (i work for a muti-national and they will do whatever revenue say believe me), in effect, they may be able to bypass the homeowner altogether. I can go out and protest on the street but I have no influence over my employer. Govt. fcukers know this, they seem to have us by the short and curlies...
If this ends up with my employer deducing money from me without my consent I will go beserk...my anger will multiply but none of it will be directed towards my employer, it will all be towards the GOVT. ....FINE GAEL AND LABOUR TD'S.

It never ceases to amaze me that when it comes to raising tax revenue how inventive / ingenious / active these fcukers can be.....on the other hand it can take them decades to act on other serious issues....but then these other issues don't raise revenue for them !!!
This lpt is basically a method for the gutless, useless govt. to reduce the need for greater spending cuts which they are unwilling / unable or afraid to introduce...they are incapable of breaking contracts, taking on unions, cutting salaries and pensions , reform, streamlining, increasing productivity etc.

We will have to be prepared for "action" by a large number of people...it is the only way to defeat this act of treason on the Irish people.

In response to the part I've underlined, do you not consider closing our nations deficit an important issue? I do. Thats why they are trying to raise tax revenue.

A lot of stuff by economists I've read suggests that increasing and introducing charges is more effective than cutting spending (salaries etc) or increasing income taxes. If people have a smaller pay cheques they will spend less money, and our economy needs more people spending money to get our GDP back up and increase government revenue through VAT etc.

In response to the rest of your post you called the government gutless and you seem to suggest they are afraid to make hard choices, cutting the carers grant was a pretty tough thing to do. I guess the irony is that you would critisise them for doing that while also critisising them for not making any hard choices....

As regards to mass protest and civil disobedience, this is Ireland. The majority of the electorate are gullible, as demonstrated by the last election, and lazy so I doubt we will be seeing any real large scale protest.

tayto lover

MadYaker wrote: »

In response to the part I've underlined, do you know consider closing our nations deficit an important issue? I do. Thats why they are trying to raise tax revenue.

A lot of stuff by economists I've read suggests that increasing and introducing charges is more effective than cutting spending (salaries etc) or increasing income taxes. If people have a smaller pay cheques they will spend less money, and our economy needs more people spending money to get our GDP back up and increase government revenue through VAT etc.

In response to the rest of your post you called the government gutless and you seem to suggest they are afraid to make hard choices, cutting the carers grant was a pretty tough thing to do. I guess the irony is that you would critisise them for doing that while also critisising them for not making any hard choices....

As regards to mass protest and civil disobedience, this is Ireland. The majority of the electorate are gullible, as demonstrated by the last election, and lazy so I doubt we will be seeing any real large scale protest.

1. Demand a write-down. Get firm with this shower who placed the debts of Europe on the Irish people.
2. Demand a much longer time to pay or offer a default.
3. Start representing and looking after their own people instead of ingratiating themselves to the likes of Merkel.
4. Grow a pair.

Ghandee

MadYaker wrote: »

A lot of stuff by economists I've read suggests that increasing and introducing charges is more effective than cutting spending (salaries etc) or increasing income taxes. If people have a smaller pay cheques they will spend less money, and our economy needs more people spending money to get our GDP back up and increase government revenue through VAT etc.

Are you serious?

A euro taken from a wage cheque is a euro that individual will have less, in that week/month to spend in the local economy.

A euro needed to go towards a property tax, (surprisingly enough) will have to be taken from that exact same wage/salary after all.

pitkan

So, just to recap on my position.

I did not fall for the best Irish joke ever: Tell us who you are, throw in 100 euro and we'll get up on your back later.

I did not scramble to any deadlines.

The threats of ESB etc databases never materialised.

I will ignore Revenues estimate. Since when did they become Estate Agents.

They dont know if I am liable or not.

If they do suceed in the end and deduct from my salary then, I will have less to spend in the community (this is a race to the bottom) and will do a lot of sourcing from the black economy.

Bring it on.

MadYaker

Ghandee wrote: »

Are you serious?

A euro taken from a wage cheque is a euro that individual will have less, in that week/month to spend in the local economy.

A euro needed to go towards a property tax, (surprisingly enough) will have to be taken from that exact same wage/salary after all.

I know their net income is the same regardless. €50 less in pay = €50 for some new tax but physically having a smaller paycheck has a psychological effect on people causing them to spend less money than they could. This isn't the case when you introduce a new tax/charge unrelated to peoples pay. Its totally illogical I know but I was talking to a friend earlier who is studying economics and he was going about this and how there were loads of studies published in journals to support it. I'm reading a bit about it myself now. The psychology of economics is interesting.

dxhound2005

pitkan wrote: »

You really have it all summed up then.
You missed the point completely. 1.2million people (my estimate) is based on that one or the other of the named mortgagees are liable for the charge but as neither of them have paid....well, that's 1.2 million votes as well.

Incidentally, there is a lot up disruption coming down the line soon from the PS. The non paying HHC people are a thorn in this Governments side, the money from which is going to the upkeep of the PS lifestyle.

I have attended 6 HHC protests in the past 12 months including the Gardai gaffe one when the FG Ard Fheis was on. And, I hope there will be many more this year.
Dont be put off by the 'small' turnouts at these protests. There is a groundswell of support from the non attendees.

Tell me more. I don't mind if you want to provide links as evidence.

pitkan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Tell me more. I don't mind if you want to provide links as evidence.

Trust me. I'm on the inside.

Le_Dieux

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Now only 65% of the intake will be spent locally, according to this piece in the Indo:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-insists-65pc-of-property-tax-will-be-spent-locally-3358378.html

Do these folk in DE have ANY idea where the money is going? One day ( we are told ) all to local authorities, now we have this???

Is it any wonder there is such resentment to a) The HHC/PT & b) The bunch masquerading as a government?

Something struck me during the day:

Kenny said back in 1994: it is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home

The same 'human' says in 2013: It's fair in the sense that those with more, pay more

This excuse for a TD has absolutly NO morals. Can't even honour his own word. What a shambles!!!

MadYaker

Its only struck you now eh? I hate to ruin your eureka moment but that must be the 500th time somebody has used those quotes in this series of threads. Its really losing its effectiveness at this stage. Can you not come up with something new?

Ghandee

MadYaker wrote: »

I know their net income is the same regardless. €50 less in pay = €50 for some new tax but physically having a smaller paycheck has a psychological effect on people causing them to spend less money than they could. This isn't the case when you introduce a new tax/charge unrelated to peoples pay. Its totally illogical I know but I was talking to a friend earlier who is studying economics and he was going about this and how there were loads of studies published in journals to support it. I'm reading a bit about it myself now. The psychology of economics is interesting.

So by your logic, people will still spend the same in a week/month regardless of what 'bills' have gotta be paid in the year?

And when they find themselves with a property tax they didn't factor in what happens?

Bearing in mind the recent credit union report said that approx 1.6 million wage earners have €50 or less to spend per month after essential bills get paid, when they realise they're unable to find the cash needed to live in their own Home, may find themselves in trouble with revenue/risk losing their homes?

Waaaay better idea than a minimum increase in income tax alright.

Le_Dieux

MadYaker wrote: »

Its only struck you now eh? I hate to ruin your eureka moment but that must be the 500th time somebody has used those quotes in this series of threads. Its really losing its effectiveness at this stage. Can you not come up with something new?

OMG, I said during the day........You say 'only now'. Don't mean to be picky, but what part of the english language do you not understand?

FYI: I am self employed, am driving all day, so only get a chance to get to my pc when i get home.

Le_Dieux

MadYaker wrote: »

Its only struck you now eh? I hate to ruin your eureka moment but that must be the 500th time somebody has used those quotes in this series of threads. Its really losing its effectiveness at this stage. Can you not come up with something new?

I didn't make the effing statements, that gobshíte of a Taoiseach did.

Slick50

MadYaker wrote: »

I hate to ruin your eureka moment but

When will it dawn on you that a euro less in your pay pack is a euro less, wether it is called HHC, LPT, or PAYE.

I see tonights Scannal, on RTE1, was a very apt reminder of the metal of the current bunch in power.

darkhorse

flutered wrote: »

add to the above, under the cloud of the knacker burgers, joan burton brought in lrglistation to allow her department to deduct the house hold charge from the dole and all other social welfare payments, now we have the senario where a homeowner in negitave liquity, unable to pay their morgage while unemployed having the household charge deducted from their dole money, also the disabled probaply the hardest hit by the last few budgets having their household charge deducted from their megre living allowance, what happened outside the dail will be replicated all over the country.

I've been practicing my drawing:

MadYaker

Ghandee wrote: »

So by your logic, people will still spend the same in a week/month regardless of what 'bills' have gotta be paid in the year?

And when they find themselves with a property tax they didn't factor in what happens?

Bearing in mind the recent credit union report said that approx 1.6 million wage earners have €50 or less to spend power month after essential bills get paid, when they realise they're unable to find the cash needed to live in their own Home, may find themselves in trouble with revenue/risk losing their homes?

Waaaay better idea than a minimum increase in income tax alright.

Its not my logic, and I never said that people will spend the same regardless of what bills they have to pay. My point was that increasing income taxes leads to a sharper decline in consumer spending when compared to introducing new charges that don't directly affect peoples net pay, even if disposable income is the same either way.

darkhorse

Ghandee wrote: »

Admit it DX, Hogan and Co don't know the difference in their arse and their elbow.

This sums it up:

Ghandee

MadYaker wrote: »

Its not my logic, and I never said that people will spend the same regardless of what bills they have to pay.

Yes you did

I know their net income is the same regardless. €50 less in pay = €50 for some new tax but physically having a smaller paycheck has a psychological effect on people causing them to spend less money than they could. This isn't the case when you introduce a new tax/charge unrelated to peoples pay

Which is it?

It will or it won't?

MadYaker wrote: »

My point was that increasing income taxes leads to a sharper decline in consumer spending when compared to introducing new charges that don't directly affect peoples net pay, even if disposable income is the same either way.

Here's your eureka moment.

A bucket with a gallon of water will still have a gallon less in it regardless if its leaking a litre a day, a litre a week, or a litre a month, exactly the same as if the bucket gets turned upside down and emptied in one go.

The end result is the same, a bucket without water.

You don't need to read a book on economics to understand that simple fact.

MadYaker

I give up. Its not as simple as you are trying to make it and I don't think I can explain what I'm trying to say any better than I already did so I'm giving up.

darkhorse

MadYaker wrote: »

This isn't the case when you introduce a new tax/charge unrelated to peoples pay.

No, Yaker, THIS IS THE CASE:

MadYaker

Hahaha that a great photo but unfortunately its not really relevant to anything I'm trying (and failing) to say.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Like anyone else I can only go with what is published. This is from a newspaper report at the end of December.

A total of 1.126 million properties registered for the charge - including 22,334 waivers - which saw €113.35m collected in revenue for local authorities.


Your figures will be good news for the government as all of the evaders will have to pay €200 each.

Is this the same newspaper report I wonder?

http://m.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local/over-1-1-million-have-paid-household-charge-1-4664876

Reading it, I can only assume Phil did the write up himself personally, because the accountancy skills contained in the report certainly leave a lot to be desired.

To date 1.126m properties have been registered and this includes 22,334 waivers. €113.35m has been collected and reallocated to local authorities through the Local Government Fund.

Ok, simple so far 1.126 million, minus the 22,334 waivers.....

So how many people actually paid? Well, let's (just for a minute) forget about the stories of single landlords registering up to, and over 300 properties.

I make the grand total to be 1,103,666 (open to correction, no calculator handy) now, its safe to assume that if you took all the multiple properties registered that have been counted as single tax payers, you prob could deduct a further 50-100,000 from this figure, bit to keep things simple for now, we'll leave them in.

The 'report' then goes on to say this.

“In the last few years Irish people have had a tough time of it and, in spite of that, over 1.2million people have paid the household charge.

1.2million.... Or in Layman's terms 1,200,000

Lol:pac:

dxhound2005

Some possible good news for landlords on the property tax front, since they have been abandoned by the CAHWT. (We will not be defending landlords with portfolios of properties).

(http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/buytolet-investors-will-be-allowed-to-file-property-tax-as-expense-3357475.html

Also I see the United Left Alliance may be becoming a bit less united. Remember the time when Clare and Joe were the headline speakers at CAHWT functions up and down the country?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0121/1224329103851.html

darkhorse

MadYaker wrote: »

I'm reading a bit about it myself now. The psychology of economics is interesting.

Could ya perhaps loan it to mr noonan when yer finished reading it.

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Some possible good news for landlords on the property tax front, since they have been abandoned by the CAHWT. (We will not be defending landlords with portfolios of properties).

(http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/buytolet-investors-will-be-allowed-to-file-property-tax-as-expense-3357475.html

Also I see the United Left Alliance may be becoming a bit less united. Remember the time when Clare and Joe were the headline speakers at CAHWT functions up and down the country?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0121/1224329103851.html

fcuking hell, they sure know how to add insult to injury to us ordinary folk