Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

tayto lover

Big C wrote: »

property tax and septic tank, Feb 1 coming up fast, Thinking of reg septic tank. Like previous posts my septic was their for 20 yrs, it works but thats all I know about it, I live in very rural area, old council cottage third acre of land, septic tank is about 100yds from house. Reason I presume it works is because I havent been near it in years, problem is I am confined to a wheelchair (MS). I think if it is inspected it will not pass and will be the max cost to put right, maybe €15000, ok I will get €4000 grant but I dont have the balance. I have paid my taxes up to the MS takin over when I left work. I am not looking for sympathy but where do they think I will get €10,000 out of my disabilty pension The only reason I might register my tank is what they could do next ie if I ever tried to sell my house cud I have to pay an extra (what ever amount they come up with for registering after Feb 1st). So between new prop tax and septic tank sh*t I hope bertie and brian and the rest of the *********. I'l stopp here before I get really annoyed.

This is a cruel and uncaring shower we have in Government now unless of course if you are rich bondholder, banker or developer and if you have a German accent then you go to the top of their list.

spygirl

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The problem is that even if you succeed in evading the tax nobody can inherit your house until it is paid.

Not in a position to pay? I fail to see how someone can afford to run a private house and not have been able to pay €100 to cover 18 months, whatever about the future. You can refuse to co-operate but if you are trying to get others to do the same that is dangerous for them if they take your advice.

I'm not advocating what anyone else should or shouldn't do. Just what I'm doing and why.
My mother is someone who couldn't afford to pay the 100 euros over the 12 months. My father bought our home when we were children. Sadly he died many years ago. It was bought from the council/corporation and payments on it will last until my mother is in her seventies. Not that much longer in other words.

She gets a widows pension, thats it. She pays her home loan, bills etc from that. it's her only source of income. She never drank, doesn't smoke and never goes on holidays due to ill health. A few day trips away with a ladies group are about it. She couldn't afford it last year even if she wanted to.

She pays bin charges and everything else. Although tough on her when we were growing up, still not as tough as some others are having it now. We may not all want to hear it but some people will find this another bill they can't afford.

Not advising what people should or shouldn't do, each to their own. Sorry if that wasn't made clear at the start.

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are some deeply undemocratic forces at work in the country. Their pretence to represent the interests of the owners of private property is shockingly cynical. There are elements there who only want to disrupt the capitalist system and who would seize all private property for their utopian socialist workers republic. Seek answers means intimidate. Apart from closing down the opportunity for constituents to meet their TD's they have also threatened to disrupt court proceedings. As I say deeply undemocratic.

would you not consider that our own government have been attacking that same capitalist system by not letting private banks fail in the manner of capitalism? are they also not threatening our private property with their tax? with their threats of "we will prevent you pass on your house to your children"
private property that we have already been taxed on multiple times?

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

To my mind, the Property Tax is a better move than alternative measures, such as raising Income Tax.

Well, Vlad, we know that one of the issues in Enda Kenny's party election manifesto, was that he did'nt want to raise income tax.
Just for a moment, let me put this into the context that I think it more suited in respect of politicians, retired politicians etc.
There are in the dail at the moment 30 ministers, including 15 ministers of state.
We know from the indo that there are 116 former ministers.
There's more than likely a good deal of retired civil servants.
We do not know how many people are retired from quango's being paid pensions from the public purse.
So, just think about it. Do you think the reason that he would rather not rise income tax would be to benifit you, me and ordinary workers.
I don't think so. He's looking after his own future. So, please don't tell that politicians are looking after our welfare by not raising income tax.

K-9

spygirl wrote: »

It's not based on my ability to pay

There are provisions for those on low incomes in the budget. Those provisions mightn't be enough but there is help for hardship cases in the new tax.

I think those provisions should be wider and less strict but I'm kind of perplexed at the finger pointing at people in social housing. Generally they are people on low incomes, with exceptions, but I'd think the majority are low income households, most would be on welfare or low incomes and getting together a few grand for new windows would be a big ask. People who work and post on this thread would know how hard it is to get a few grand together for new windows, why finger point at people in social housing?

It isn't as if they become wealthier because the council paid for new windows!

Slick50

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The problem is that even if you succeed in evading the tax nobody can inherit your house until it is paid.

Things change. And even if they don't, it will be a cheap house for someone... I doubt they'd hold it against me.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Not in a position to pay? I fail to see how someone can afford to run a private house and not have been able to pay €100 to cover 18 months, whatever about the future. You can refuse to co-operate but if you are trying to get others to do the same that is dangerous for them if they take your advice.

You're not the only one with this failing

K-9

bgrizzley wrote: »

Just to add, Spygirl, this is only if the next government dont send this tax back to oblivion as was done with the last two. a likely scenario seeing as there is little popular support for this even in government, not to mind the opposition. Remember that FG can sometimes be away in their own world,(remember they put a tax on the feet of our children:()

What do you mean the last 2?

The tax in the 90's with the famous Kenny quote was basically a Dublin tax, brought in little. It was scrapped and the attention then went on the introduction of bin collections in Dublin, Joe Higgins proved very popular in the Dublin Nort West bye election, the Castleknock Bourgeois with 2 cars in 1998 sympathised with Joe and his fight for the proletariat. Joe had no problem canavassing them and they had no problem voting for him to stave of the bin charges.

Meanwhile most of the other counties were already paying bin charges.

The HHC has been superceded by the new higher property tax.

darkhorse

tayto lover wrote: »

Some of us are losing our way on this thread.
I have been thinking of a way to keep it in focus and to generate debate that will not lead to insulting one another.

While I have a personal reason for not paying the HHC or the Property Tax I would like to ask posters if --

1. Would they still have a problem paying these taxes if they were convinced that the money was actually staying in the country to support and pay for services and not being used to pay for E.U. debts that are not ours?

2. Pay these taxes if the cuts started at the top and didn't hit the services we need like nurses, garda etc

3. The services actually were seen to improve the quality of life i.e. better roads, better water etc like in the U.K and included all the services the U.K. citizens receive.

4. If it was affordable and was guaranteed to remain so for the next number of years.

1. Yes, as I think it unjust and immoral to tax a family home.

2. No, as I think it unjust and immoral to tax a family home.

3. No, as I think it unjust and immoral to tax a family home.

4. Even if it was €1.00 a year, I would still think it unjust and immoral to tax
a family home.

bgrizzley

K-9 wrote: »

What do you mean the last 2?

im also counting the demise of domestic rates by lynch in 77 (as well as the rpt in 97)

spygirl

K-9 wrote: »

There are provisions for those on low incomes in the budget. Those provisions mightn't be enough but there is help for hardship cases in the new tax.

I think those provisions should be wider and less strict but I'm kind of perplexed at the finger pointing at people in social housing. Generally they are people on low incomes, with exceptions, but I'd think the majority are low income households, most would be on welfare or low incomes and getting together a few grand for new windows would be a big ask. People who work and post on this thread would know how hard it is to get a few grand together for new windows, why finger point at people in social housing?

It isn't as if they become wealthier because the council paid for new windows!

the post was not meant as finger pointing at anyone regardless of where they live. Sorry if you get that impression. It was in response to another post. Tenants pay to live in a house which is not their own. It should be up to a certain standard which would be the reason LA's replaced windows and updated heating etc.Same with landlords up and down the country who have to keep the houses they rent up to certain standards. As far I know why would anyone "get a few grand together to replace windows" in house that they didn't own?
I chose to buy my own home and absorbed these costs myself as does every other homeowner. Maybe I missed something in an earlier post but how is that finger pointing?
Also quite a number of people bought their council/social houses, have lost jobs since and are liable for the property tax. Like a lot of others don't have the income now but still the same overheads. Yes the council does these things for it's tenants, they were obliged to in most cases. Others bought their own homes and accepted to pay for these things themselves.Still fail to understand why thats finger pointing.

Bruthal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The problem is that even if you succeed in evading the tax nobody can inherit your house until it is paid.

Hardly a massive worry for either the beneficiary or benefactor of a house. For you though, it would probably be seen as a little victory for the pro side. Maybe you might even rest better in the final resting place, having lived the life of complete compliance.

Not in a position to pay? I fail to see how someone can afford to run a private house and not have been able to pay €100 to cover 18 months, whatever about the future.

Or how they might get into mortgage arrears, or lose their job so weekly outgoings are higher than incomes, leading to such arrears. That is indeed a failure to see.

You can refuse to co-operate but if you are trying to get others to do the same that is dangerous for them if they take your advice.

Bad and all as enda is, he is not stalin

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

but the Property Tax does. Generally speaking, the more valuable a house you own, the better off you are.

It does most certainly not take affordability into account.

Your second statement would be correct if, a) We had 100% employment in the country, b) If the housing market did'nt crash.

darkhorse

K-9 wrote: »

and NAMA and the banks owning the vast majority of them.

And the government, via the revenue, it would appear.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

So some money raised in Dublin, goes towards local services in Donegal

If you happen to be coming to Donegal in the future, I must give you my number, and we can arrange to show you around, dv. Oh, and you can pack a pair of swimming trunks, and you can take a wee dip in one or two of our potholes.

Chips Lovell

darkhorse wrote: »

I don't think so. He's looking after his own future. So, please don't tell that politicians are looking after our welfare by not raising income tax.

I'm not talking about why politicians think its a good idea. I'm talking about why I think it's a good idea.

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'm not talking about why politicians think its a good idea. I'm talking about why I think it's a good idea.

OK, thats fair enough. Your opinion regarding this tax seems to be firmly unmovable, as is mine. That said, would it be pertinent to ask if we could have a poll to see what kind of interest is there among posters as regards to whether they would vote for a rise in income tax versus a property tax. By the way, I think the term property tax sounds more like a business term, as in, just for example, in the past, before this whole fiasco of an idea came along, if someone mentioned property, I would have put more in the context of, that guy is a property developer, or, that guy is letting out a property. I mean, ya would not have in the past of one person paying NPPR on ten family home's, ya see where I'm coming from. But it would be interesting to see how people would either way, wha dia say.

K-9

bgrizzley wrote: »

im also counting the demise of domestic rates by lynch in 77 (as well as the rpt in 97)

Yeah it was terrible we didn't have a property tax during the boom, shocking.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are some deeply undemocratic forces at work in the country. Their pretence to represent the interests of the owners of private property is shockingly cynical. There are elements there who only want to seize all private property. Seek answers means intimidate.As I say deeply undemocratic.

Agreed. But I blame the niave voters who voted them in.

darkhorse

darkhorse wrote: »

OK, thats fair enough. Your opinion regarding this tax seems to be firmly unmovable, as is mine. That said, would it be pertinent to ask if we could have a poll to see what kind of interest is there among posters as regards to whether they would vote for a rise in income tax versus a property tax. By the way, I think the term property tax sounds more like a business term, as in, just for example, in the past, before this whole fiasco of an idea came along, if someone mentioned property, I would have put more in the context of, that guy is a property developer, or, that guy is letting out a property. I mean, ya would not have in the past of one person paying NPPR on ten family home's, ya see where I'm coming from. But it would be interesting to see how people would either way, wha dia say.

I take that as a no so. I have to go now.

K-9

darkhorse wrote: »

It does most certainly not take affordability into account.

Your second statement would be correct if, a) We had 100% employment in the country, b) If the housing market did'nt crash.

It does take affordability into account, there are provisions in the new law. You mightn't like the provisions but what darkhorse likes is irrelevant . Not to your liking but that's the world, tough life it is.

You make the best of what you have, not think well darkhorse will get everything she desires.

bgrizzley

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah it was terrible we didn't have a property tax during the boom, shocking.

im lost, what was terrible about that? this tax would not be any better just because people had money, maybe you mean it would just stick in the throat less?

By the way we had stamp duty, and VAT. and IIRC i remember my sister and a friend paying almost 4 grand each to the council for an environment impact fee(??) (or some such name like that) on top of thier planning fees

Both those houses cost in the region of 175k ea, thats E79,000 to the government in VAT alone plus 8k to the council not even starting with their tax take from employment given to local tradesmen.

And now they think they are going to shaft them for E2 pw?:rolleyes: straws and camels backs...


edit
one thing im really glad about is the fine low figure they started this tax on(price of a half pint blah blah blah). the term tax evader has been trolled around this thread willy nilly since day one(and to the letter of the law you may be correct), but you guys it using know damn well that someone who denies the government their half pint is far from tax evader.

Slick50

K-9 wrote: »

It does take affordability into account, there are provisions in the new law. You mightn't like the provisions but what darkhorse likes is irrelevant . Not to your liking but that's the world, tough life it is.

You make the best of what you have, not think well darkhorse will get everything she desires.

Is that you, grand master ?

darkhorse

K-9 wrote: »

You mightn't like the provisions but what darkhorse likes is irrelevant .

Yeah, that's about right, darkhorse got no say whatsoever. At least ya tell it like it is and I respect that.

Bruthal

K-9 wrote: »

It does take affordability into account, there are provisions in the new law. You mightn't like the provisions but what darkhorse likes is irrelevant . Not to your liking but that's the world, tough life it is.

No more irrelevant than what anyone else here likes or says.

You make the best of what you have

A pity that only applies to the lowly cash cow tax payers, and not the real beneficiaries of their ever increasing burden.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

This is just another story made up by the Independent.

It seem Minister Noonan did'nt just say it to the Independent.

The Irish Property Owners Association (IPOA) welcomed clarification from the Minister for Finance that the Local Property Tax, due to apply from the summer, will be a tax deductible expense from rental income.

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

It seem Minister Noonan did'nt just say it to the Independent.

The Irish Property Owners Association (IPOA) welcomed clarification from the Minister for Finance that the Local Property Tax, due to apply from the summer, will be a tax deductible expense from rental income.

It isn't in the legislation but it looks like it might happen. It won't be of any use though to the landlords who think paying tax on their rental income is unjust and unfair. But they are another group that will find themselves with questions to answer when the property register is established.

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/04/07/household-charge-database-to-be-used-to-target-landlords-donegal-tax-expert/

hju6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEKNs8yY0Y8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Real person law versus makey upey statutes,

darkhorse

MadYaker wrote: »

I can't believe he thinks that some ministers might actually be brought to court by some eejit in westport.

I just could'nt let this go. I had to come to come back to it.
OK, Yaker, I want you to be straight with me. I want you to explain to me here on this thread, why, in your opinion,(if it is indeed your opinion, it certainly reads that way) a citizen of this country has not got a right to take a minister to court, whatever the case is about. And are you saying the citizens have no rights.

dxhound2005

hju6 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEKNs8yY0Y8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Real person law versus makey upey statutes,

A real danger on the road. He has 24 previous convictions including no insurance. Freeman nonsense.

hju6

dxhound2005 wrote: »

A real danger on the road. He has 24 previous convictions including no insurance. Freeman nonsense.

Kerry license, :rolleyes: