Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Post 675, 676.

Are you claiming I support Fine Gael? Would love to see some evidence to back that one up because I have never once said I was a member of any political party and have also never said how I voted in any election. I can however tell you now that no member of FG has ever got a vote from me.

Am Chile

It seem the first household charge court case gets adjourned due to non appearance of the non payers in court-very little mention of the first court case in rest of the media.

THE
first-ever prosecutions in the country for the non-declaration of the household
charge came before Judge Mary Devins in Westport District Court today (Thursday).


Mayo County Council became is the first
local authority in the country to issue summonses against householders for the
non-declaration and payment of the controversial household charge. At today’s
sitting of the court, charges of non-declaration of the household charge were
brought against Peter Anthony Keegan of Belclare, Westport, Co Mayo, and husband
and wife, Liam and Barbara O’Malley of Clooneen, Rosbeg, Westport, Co
Mayo.



Summonses
were issued against Mr Keegan in relation to six units located at Crannog House,
The Quay, Westport, while Mr Liam O’Malley was issued with summonses for 12
units in Westport and Barbara O’Malley was issued with summonses in relation to
three units in Westport.



When
asked by Judge Devins if these were the first cases of their kind to appear
before a court in the country, Mr Ward McEllin, solicitor for Mayo County
Council, replied that he understood it was.



Mr
McEllin explained that householders are obliged to make a declaration of the
household charge and out of that declaration, the €100 payment is made. He said
the summonses in all cases were issued for failing to make a declaration of the
household charge.



Mr
Keegan was not present in court but had written to Mr McEllin stating that he
awaited his ‘invitation against proof of claim’. Mr McEllin stated that the
prosecution could go ahead in his absence, but Judge Devins said that because it
was the first case in the Republic she was not prepared to hear it in his
absence. She also said that she wanted to know what his ‘proof of claim’ is. She
asked Mr McEllin to ask Mayo County Council to write to Mr Keegan to advice him
that the case has been adjourned.



In
relation to the summonses against Mr and Mrs O’Malley, Mr McEllin said he was
informed the declarations have now been made but they have not ‘gone through the
system’ and asked for an adjournment.

Judge
Devins agreed and both cases should be adjourned, to appear before Westport
District Court on December 20.

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16455%3Acountrys-first-household-charge-cases-appear-before-westport-court&catid=23%3Anews&Itemid=46

Chips Lovell

So one case paid up prior to their court date and the other was adjourned?

I might be wrong, but the "proof of claim" thing sounds like Freeman stuff.

dvpower

No sign of the promised mass protests either.

The campaign has imploded - the CAHWT don't even have this on their website.

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

No sign of the promised mass protests either.

The campaign has imploded - the CAHWT don't even have this on their website.

Some of the statement from their facebook page yesterday-just wait till they bring court cases in Donegal you will see mass protests there.

We
condemn the issuing of summonses by Mayo County Council. The
campaign has not been contacted by any of those in receipt of the summons, but we
understand that all summonsed so far have been landlords. If ordinary householders, including
those in possession of more than one house, receive summonses, we would urge
them to contact the campaign immediately on 1890 989800.”

“The
Campaign is fully prepared to legally defend ordinary householders if they are
taken to court,

http://www.facebook.com/notes/campaign-against-household-and-water-taxes/campaign-fully-prepared-to-legally-defend-householders-is-they-are-taken-to-cour/429165567133027

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

No sign of the promised mass protests either.

The campaign has imploded - the CAHWT don't even have this on their website.

Landlords, dude.

Summonses were issued against Mr Keegan in relation to six units located at Crannog House, The Quay, Westport, while Mr Liam O’Malley was issued with summonses for 12 units in Westport and Barbara O’Malley was issued with summonses in relation to three units in Westport.

Interesting what this sort of thing does when you view it in relation to all the figures released of "households" who had registered.
21 "households" between three people there so far........

Chips Lovell

I don't think a sample size of 21 properties owned by 3 different people really tells us much. But if anything, it says more about the figures for "households" who haven't registered than the households who have.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't think a sample size of 21 properties owned by 3 different people really tells us much. But if anything, it says more about the figures for "households" who haven't registered than the households who have.

It also tells us that the only people they can find to summons, are ones on an existing database.

Not a great start to court cases in any way.

Another 800,000 to 'find' and summons to court (twice may I add) before they can forcibly gouge it.

greenpilot

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16455:countrys-first-household-charge-cases-appear-before-westport-court&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

.... and so it begins.:eek:

mikom

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't think a sample size of 21 properties owned by 3 different people really tells us much. But if anything, it says more about the figures for "households" who haven't registered than the households who have.

You could also say it says a lot about those who have selected the landlords to be the ones hauled before the courts first.
Not exactly a cross-section of those resisting the charge really.
Playing politics with the courts............... a slippery slope.

El Weirdo

greenpilot wrote: »

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16455:countrys-first-household-charge-cases-appear-before-westport-court&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

.... and so it begins.:eek:

Merged with existing Household Charge thread. Best to keep it all in the one place.

Chips Lovell

The first people they went after with reminder letters were landlords and owners of second homes. So it stands to reason that the first people being summonsed would be those.

BTW, that 800,000 has fallen to 545,000 according to the most recent figures.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The first people they went after with reminder letters were landlords and owners of second homes. So it stands to reason that the first people being summonsed would be those.

BTW, that 800,000 has fallen to 545,000 according to the most recent figures.

I'm talking about the real figures.

1.8 million homes.;)

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

Landlords, dude.

That's a qualification that the campaign weren't making up to this week.


As I predicted, the initial tranche of prosecutions would be against landlords.
As I predicted, the CAHWT wouldn't be seen.
I predict that as these go through the courts and fines are handed out we will see the remaining evaders pay up in large numbers.

The campaign is dead!

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

Playing politics with the courts............... a slippery slope.

Strategic enforcement ........... common sense.

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

Strategic enforcement ........... common sense.

Nah, common sense is sending threatening letters demanding money from long dead householders.........

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm talking about the real figures.

1.8 million homes.;)

I suppose the census is wrong.

dvpower

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose the census is wrong.

Ghandee doesn't accept any official figures.
To get the true figure, you need to look into your heart.

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

I asked you to explain it you clearly cant so you can retract it if you want, otherwise I suggest you stop calling others immature.

dvpower wrote: »

Not this nonsense again.

I cant retract something thats true. It seems that we were here before. And it did happen a couple of times that you wanted something explained a couple of times and it did'nt matter how many times that you were told the same thing, you did'nt want to believe it anyway. Just read all the posts in full, donalg1. Here is just one small example--the quote from dvpower, above--you see, this particular forum is about a Household Charge--there is no property tax until next year, but if a poster rightly informs you people what the letters HHC mean, all we hear from any of you is "not this nonsense again".

tayto lover

Ghandee wrote: »

It also tells us that the only people they can find to summons, are ones on an existing database.

Not a great start to court cases in any way.

Another 800,000 to 'find' and summons to court (twice may I add) before they can forcibly gouge it.

A good many adjournments due to "illness" and the courts will be in a heap.
Add a few challenges to the ownership requirements and the courts will be tied up for many years.
Then add the "I have no money left to pay" excuses and the whole thing falls.
Then General Election promises to do away with the charge makes it history.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I suppose the census is wrong.

dvpower wrote: »

Ghandee doesn't accept any official figures.
To get the true figure, you need to look into your heart.

One of many sources. (moneyguideireland is certainly not biassed mind you.)

Firstly, an answer for Vlad.

Has anyone actually said that the Household Charge was intended solely to finance the creation of a database?

October 31, 2012 |PostedbyMoney Expert

The Household Charge of €100 per property came into force in Ireland in January 2012 – but this is only in place until a full Irish Property Tax system is set up. The household charge system is being used to build up a database of home owners in Ireland. With only around 60% compliance – there is a long way to go.

And, while not 1.8 million. They do estimate 1.76 million.

Update : October 25th 2012..

Thousands of letters about non payment of the household charge have been sent out on behalf of local authorities in recent weeks . Apparently – many people who have already paid have received these reminders . The Household Charge was introduced in order to build a national property database in preparation for a Property Tax

Latest figures on Household Charge registration. The latest figures were given by Phil Hogan on 16th October and are the figures as at 12th October 2012

Nationally 1,071,642 have registered for the household charge (with 20861 of those having waivers).

We estimate there are about 1.76 million properties that could be liable for the Household Charge - (See our calculations here) so if the figure of 1,071,642 is correct – that works out at just under 61% of liable properties that have been registered.

With the Property Tax system expected to kick in during 2013 – it is going to get very messy trying to find out who actually owns all the unregistered properties.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/category/household-charge

One of many, many sources guys.

Budget on the way, expect very high anti govt sentiments soon after.

+

FF now opposing a property tax, (God help us)

Abolition of this is inevitable guys.

lugha

tayto lover wrote: »

A good many adjournments due to "illness" and the courts will be in a heap.
Add a few challenges to the ownership requirements and the courts will be tied up for many years.
Then add the "I have no money left to pay" excuses and the whole thing falls.

We have a judicial system which has been refined and improved, not over years, but centuries. There have been not books, or volumes, but libraries of tomes written about all aspects of its workings. And what ever failings and shortcomings we may think it has, it has evolved to anticipate and address virtually any scenario that might arise that could frustrate its workings.

Do you really think some lad cracking on that he is sick or playing the “I haven’t a bob to me name m’lord” card will be enough to hoodwink them?

If you really are prepared to have your day in court I suggest you put a small bit more thought in to your plan, which is seriously deficient in cunningness!

Ghandee wrote: »

Abolition of this is inevitable guys.

I can’t remember? It denial the second last or third last stage before acceptance?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

One of many sources. (moneyguideireland is certainly not biassed mind you.)

And, while not 1.8 million. They do estimate 1.76 million.



http://www.moneyguideireland.com/category/household-charge

Gotcha. Rather than the official figures, you are going with the figures compiled by some website/blog, whose figures for the 334000 empty properties that are exempt they put at 100000, without any explanation at all.

Confirmation bias again, Ghandee.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Gotcha. Rather than the official figures, you are going with the figures compiled by some website/blog, whose figures for the 334000 empty properties that are exempt they put at 100000, without any explanation at all.

Confirmation bias again, Ghandee.

(Updated March 30th with latest Census Figures )

According to the final Census 2011 figures – there were 1,994,845 dwellings in Ireland in May 2011. (Of those – 334,374 were vacant.) Vacant houses are not exempt – but it is possible that some of these vacant dwellings may be exempt because they form part of the trading stock of a business and they have never being lived in. Many NAMA owned properties may fall into this exemption – but the total figure involved is not known. Let’s estimate that 100,000 of these vacant properties are exempt.

All Local Authority owned housing is exempt – and that is about 108,000 homes. Also exempt are houses owned by approved non-profit housing bodies (housing associations and housing co-operatives) which is about 25,000 dwellings. So – that’s 133,000 exempt rented dwellings That brings the total estimated exempt properties to 233,000 and therefore the estimated liable properties to 1.76 million

Remind me why I don't trust the govt with their constant regurgitated shyte?

donalg1

darkhorse wrote: »

I cant retract something thats true. It seems that we were here before. And it did happen a couple of times that you wanted something explained a couple of times and it did'nt matter how many times that you were told the same thing, you did'nt want to believe it anyway. Just read all the posts in full, donalg1. Here is just one small example--the quote from dvpower, above--you see, this particular forum is about a Household Charge--there is no property tax until next year, but if a poster rightly informs you people what the letters HHC mean, all we hear from any of you is "not this nonsense again".

I'm not talking about anything dv said I'm asking why my you believe my post to be the stupidest thing you ever read have asked you umpteen times now yet you respond with nonsense and I really couldn't care less anymore tbh. Sick of your nonsense.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Remind me why I don't trust the govt with their constant regurgitated shyte?

So, as that article says, certain vacant properties are exempt. And they put the figure at 100000, a figure seemingly pulled out of the air with no reference whatsoever given for it.

If theyre willing to be that sloppy with the maths, why would anyone accept their figures ahead of the official ones? Unless the figures suited your own bias?

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

We have a judicial system which has been refined and improved, not over years, but centuries.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/198354-sexually-assault-girls-pay-15-000-avoid-jail-print.html

lmao refined and improved

dvpower

Hijpo wrote: »

http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/198354-sexually-assault-girls-pay-15-000-avoid-jail-print.html

lmao refined and improved

Both of those cases resulted in convictions.

lugha

Hijpo wrote: »

http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/198354-sexually-assault-girls-pay-15-000-avoid-jail-print.html

lmao refined and improved

If you plan to take Tayto’s er, legal advise and ignore those fancy dan, over-paid solicitors and barristers be sure to let us know when you turn comes. I might go along to the court for a laugh. :pac:

What's the plan? Snuffle a few times to convince them you're sick. And demand an adjournment? :pac::pac::pac:

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

We have a judicial system which has been refined and improved, not over years, but centuries. There have been not books, or volumes, but libraries of tomes written about all aspects of its workings. And what ever failings and shortcomings we may think it has, it has evolved to anticipate and address virtually any scenario that might arise that could frustrate its workings.

Do you really think some lad cracking on that he is sick or playing the “I haven’t a bob to me name m’lord” card will be enough to hoodwink them?

If you really are prepared to have your day in court I suggest you put a small bit more thought in to your plan, which is seriously deficient in cunningness!

I can’t remember? It denial the second last or third last stage before acceptance?

Yes I have.
Honesty is always the best policy so I will use the old " judge, I have hardly any money left to feed my family. I would love to be able to pay this tax and I could just about manage 1 euro a week".
Things like this are happening in the District Courts around the country on a daily basis.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/26951-debtor-gets-400-years-pay-bill-price-pint-week