Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So by your logic, if someone thinks a policy is a good idea, they are automatically a supporter of a party who endorses it?

No but to be on here day and night constantly spouting it without even contemplating the views of the opposition is just too much.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc etc.

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

Now if only Ghandee could clarify who he was referring to we could put the whole thing to bed.

This will be the third and final time I'll plead with you Donal.

If you think I have accused you of being affiliated with any political party, fg/ff/sf/lab or otherwise, kindly point me towards the post.

If you won't or can't, kindly stop trying to derail the thread on petty assumptions and accusations.

Now let this be the end of it, please grow up.

Chips Lovell

tayto lover wrote: »

No but to be on here day and night constantly spouting it without even contemplating the views of the opposition is just too much.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc etc.

Do you know what Tayto? I think I've treated you respectfully throughout. Yes, we disagree, but I've engaged with your points, tried to see your point of view and given you mine.

I've never engaged in name calling. I've never alleged you're a Sinn Feiner or an FFer or a member of the CAWHT. Because I've no idea of what your political affiliations are. I would have expected the same courtesy from you.

lugha

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So by your logic, if someone thinks a policy is a good idea, they are automatically a supporter of a party who endorses it?

And of course as his view on property tax is close enough to Sinn Fein's view, it follows that he is a Shinner.

tayto lover wrote: »

No but to be on here day and night constantly spouting it without even contemplating the views of the opposition is just too much.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc etc.

Can you reference any of your own posts where you conceded an argument in favour of a property tax?

I don't think so. So it seems you are a Sinn Fein duck. :pac:

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

This will be the third and final time I'll plead with you Donal.

If you think I have accused you of being affiliated with any political party, fg/ff/sf/lab or otherwise, kindly point me towards the post.

If you won't or can't, kindly stop trying to derail the thread on petty assumptions and accusations.

Now let this be the end of it, please grow up.

I put a link of the post up for you, so I really dont know what the above is about.

You want me to grow up, well why dont you grow up and answer the questions you have been asked a hundred times now. It would be very easy for you to put the argument to bed, you only have to answer two simple questions and that will be the end of it. Why wont you do this Ghandee?

Who were you referring to?

Why did you refer Vlad to my post?

Answer these and that will be the end of it.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

And of course as his view on property tax is close enough to Sinn Fein's view, it follows that he is a Shinner.


Can you reference any of your own posts where you conceded an argument in favour of a property tax?

I don't think so. So it seems you are a Sinn Fein duck. :pac:

You do realise Lugha, SF are only one of every political party in Ireland bar the coalition that oppose a property tax?

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Do you know what Tayto? I think I've treated you respectfully throughout. Yes, we disagree, but I've engaged with your points, tried to see your point of view and given you mine.

I've never engaged in name calling. I've never alleged you're a Sinn Feiner or an FFer or a member of the CAWHT. Because I've no idea of what your political affiliations are. I would have expected the same courtesy from you.

No need to get huffy about it.
I just said that I think you and others are F.G. supporters. Where is the insult in that?
It's an opinion, that's all. Unless of course people are members and are ashamed of it which I really can't believe.

As for me I have never voted S.F. I have voted F.F., Labour and the last time I voted F.G. because I thought they stood for change, anti-corruption and cronyism. I didn't even know that they were pro Property Tax to my shame. So I was wrong on many things about them.

K-9

donalg1 wrote: »

I put a link of the post up for you, so I really dont know what the above is about.

You want me to grow up, well why dont you grow up and answer the questions you have been asked a hundred times now. It would be very easy for you to put the argument to bed, you only have to answer two simple questions and that will be the end of it. Why wont you do this Ghandee?

Who were you referring to?

Why did you refer Vlad to my post?

Answer these and that will be the end of it.

Quote the post in full or stop going on about it.

Everybody else cut out the sniping.

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

And of course as his view on property tax is close enough to Sinn Fein's view, it follows that he is a Shinner.


Can you reference any of your own posts where you conceded an argument in favour of a property tax?

I don't think so. So it seems you are a Sinn Fein duck. :pac:

I have always been consistent in saying I would agree to pay more Income Tax as opposed to a Property Tax which I see as being an attack on my home and unfair as not every home owner is being asked to pay it.
I wasn't even aware that the only people against the Property Tax were Shinners either. Have you a link to that?

Chips Lovell

tayto lover wrote: »

No need to get huffy about it.
I just said that I think you and others are F.G. supporters. Where is the insult in that?
It's an opinion, that's all. Unless of course people are members and are ashamed of it which I really can't believe.

As for me I have never voted S.F. I have voted F.F., Labour and the last time I voted F.G. because I thought they stood for change, anti-corruption and cronyism. I didn't even know that they were pro Property Tax to my shame. So I was wrong on many things about them.

In fairness, it is a bit insulting to characterise someone's position as support for a party they've never voted for nor ever will. I've never indulged in name calling or labelling of you.

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

You do realise Lugha, SF are only one of every political party in Ireland bar the coalition that oppose a property tax?

Fianna Fail DO favour a property tax. They are currently engaging in a bit of political opportunism, which lamentably, some of you are failing for.

Anyway, my substantial points remains. To suggest that if you share a policy view with any political party then you must necessarily be a member of that party is plainly daft.

donalg1

K-9 wrote: »

Quote the post in full or stop going on about it.

Everybody else cut out the sniping.

I did quote his post in full and I also gave him the link he wanted. So I dont understand the above at all. I only want him to answer a couple of questions I have asked him or at the very least acknowledge them and tell me why he is refusing to answer them.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

In fairness, it is a bit insulting to characterise someone's position as support for a party they've never voted for nor ever will. I've never indulged in name calling or labelling of you.

I believe that it is no harm at all for people here to state if they support a particular party. Why not? Why should being a member or supporter of any party be an insult? All a poster has to say is that they never voted for that party. Me, i have voted for F.F. Labour and F.G. in my time. Nobody sorrier this time though.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So instead you'd like to spend public money on building a database when most of the information could have been gathered much more cheaply?

More cheaply to whom?

Certainly not the already hard hit homeowner.

As I've already asked, why don't they charge at census time, that database seems to Get created without a charge attached to it ok.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

I believe that it is no harm at all for people here to state if they support a particular party. Why not? Why should being a member or supporter of any party be an insult? All a poster has to say is that they never voted for that party.

Clearly that wouldn't be enough for you.

dvpower wrote: »

I think he was implying that I'm a FG member. He would be wrong (unsurprisingly).

tayto lover wrote: »

I would be in agreement with him on that.
I believe you, lugha and Vlad are F.G. men.
Now I could be wrong but don't think so. You are all too consistent on spinning the party line. Donalg1 may not be as sometimes he can actually see the flipside of the argument.

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

More cheaply to whom?

Certainly not the already hard hit homeowner.

As I've already asked, why don't they charge at census time, that database seems to Get created without a charge attached to it ok.

The tax payer, who is ultimately funding the creation of a database.

And you just agreed that the €100 is a tax, not a registration charge for setting up the database?

You do realise you can register without paying by the way?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

As I've already asked, why don't they charge at census time, that database seems to Get created without a charge attached to it ok.

Just like the census, there was no charge to register for the HHC.
And just like the census, the state relies on law abiding people to complete it.

You'd expect the state to employ census people to go around counting people, follow people around to see how they commute to work, follow them to their place of worship on a Sunday to complete the religion section, and trawl through the collage registration database to complete the education section.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Clearly that wouldn't be enough for you.

I don't get your point Dv.
If you didn't vote for a party all you have to do is say that. Be honest about it. I voted for F.G. last G.E. to my shame now, so i'm admitting it. I am not a member of that or any other party though. Why can't everyone else tell the truth?

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

Fianna Fail DO favour a property tax. They are currently engaging in a bit of political opportunism, which lamentably, some of you are failing for.

Anyway, my substantial points remains. To suggest that if you share a policy view with any political party then you must necessarily be a member of that party is plainly daft.

Wrong tax, wrong time, is currently their slogan towards a property tax.

I believe, (and i strongly despise the party btw) that even they, if promising to abolish this tax if voted into power again (coalition or otherwise) wouldn't be foolish enough to renege on that promise.

I think they've been out in the cold too long (for them) to risk upsetting the masses.

I (as dv will testify) could and have been wrong before.

I do, and I'll stick to this, see an FF/SF coalition before 2014, voted into power over a property tax that's proven highly controversial, and that FG and labour refuse to back down on, even after the troika saying they couldn't care less about it.

They're committing political suicide IMO.

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't get your point Dv.
If you didn't vote for a party all you have to do is say that. Be honest about it. I voted for F.G. last G.E. to my shame now, so i'm admitting it. I am not a member of that or any other party though. Why can't everyone else tell the truth?

You've already said that you were in agreement with Ghandee in implying that I'm a FG member, despite my saying that I am not.

Anyway, there is no requirement on anyone to state who they did or didn't vote for. This is a thread about the HHC / property tax, not party affiliation (even if some still can't make the distinction).
I wish people could stick to the topic.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

I do, and I'll stick to this, see an FF/SF coalition before 2014, voted into power over a property tax that's proven highly controversial, and that FG and labour refuse to back down on, even after the troika saying they couldn't care less about it.

Fantasy.

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

More cheaply to whom?

Certainly not the already hard hit homeowner.

As I've already asked, why don't they charge at census time, that database seems to Get created without a charge attached to it ok.

The HHC is in effect, a preliminary property tax. If we had introduced it in more economically favorable times there may well be no tax/charge levied in the first year.

But giving that we have such a massive deficit it would seem only prudent that the government would seek to generate some revenue from it from the off, rather than postpone it for a year.

Ghandee wrote: »

They're committing political suicide IMO.

The opinion polls don't support that view. It might well be the case that the property tax will bring down this government. But I see no evidence yet of any momentum building in that direction.

I think the Irish are a moderately sophisticated electorate. They know that they are going to have to endure a lot of hardship for the foreseeable future. If a property tax is not contributing to that pain, something else will be, and to the same extent.

And most of them know that there isn't a real alternative from any other potential government.

bgrizzley

Ghandee wrote: »

You do realise Lugha, SF are only one of every political party in Ireland bar the coalition that oppose a property tax?

and if we are to believe the protaxers on here, only one of the coalition is in favour and the other conceded to get their grubby mitts into power.

Ghandee

bgrizzley wrote: »

and if we are to believe the protaxers on here, only one of the coalition is in favour and the other conceded to get their grubby mitts into power.

That's correct.

It was only in labours manifesto.

(though, theirs was site valued)

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Fantasy.

If its a lie, I'm only the lie teller, not the lie maker.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/198489-troika-would-accept-property-tax-alternative.html

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

You've already said that you were in agreement with Ghandee in implying that I'm a FG member, despite my saying that I am not.

Anyway, there is no requirement on anyone to state who they did or didn't vote for. This is a thread about the HHC / property tax, not party affiliation (even if some still can't make the distinction).
I wish people could stick to the topic.

It is very much part of the topic if people are defending the party line just because it is the party line though and their own opinion is taking a back seat because of it.
It might actually add to the debate if people would admit as much and explain why "we" are doing this as a party.

lugha

tayto lover wrote: »

It is very much part of the topic if people are defending the party line just because it is the party line though and their own opinion is taking a back seat because of it.
It might actually add to the debate if people would admit as much and explain why "we" are doing this as a party.

Well let me bare my chest.

I am not a member of any political party and never have been a member of any political party. I have never attended a political party meeting or campaigned in any way for any party.

And in the past I have voted, at different times, for FF, FG, Lab, the Greens, the PDs and the odd independent.

Now for the love of Allah, can this be the end of this?

I am in favour of a property tax because I can see a number of advantages it has over other taxes and IMO, those making the argument against a property tax have failed to make any kind of a reasoned argument against the notion of a property tax in principle. An argument that does not apply equally well to other taxes, ones that are widely acceptable.

The undoubtedly strong views against "taxing the home" have IMO, as their source, the heart and not the head.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

If its a lie, I'm only the lie teller, not the lie maker.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/198489-troika-would-accept-property-tax-alternative.html

It seems you can be both at the same time.

Nobody (especially the troika) has said they 'couldn't care less' about the property tax.
Michael McGrath says they are 'not wedded' to it, which is a different thing altogether.
The troika have said they would consider a substitute measure with similar qualities (and they described those qualities in terms of broading the tax base and predictability).

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

Well let me bare my chest.

I am not a member of any political party and never have been a member of any political party. I have never attended a political party meeting or campaigned in any way for any party.

And in the past I have voted, at different times, for FF, FG, Lab, the Greens, the PDs and the odd independent.

Now for the love of Allah, can this be the end of this?

I am in favour of a property tax because I can see a number of advantages it has over other taxes and IMO, those making the argument against a property tax have failed to make any kind of a reasoned argument against the notion of a property tax in principle. An argument that does not apply equally well to other taxes, ones that are widely acceptable.

The undoubtedly strong views against "taxing the home" have IMO, as their source, the heart and not the head.

Now. Aren't you glad you cleared that up
Are you a home owner yourself though?

dvpower

tayto lover wrote: »

It is very much part of the topic if people are defending the party line just because it is the party line though and their own opinion is taking a back seat because of it.

Where are you constructing this from?

tayto lover wrote: »

It might actually add to the debate if people would admit as much and explain why "we" are doing this as a party.

No point in this discussion if you can't accept that someone can support a property tax without necessarily supporting a particular party.