Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

We know that.



We also know that the govt have to single out a non payer from the other 800,000 not on their (nrpp) database.

Then the judge must order the outstanding charge and fines be paid.



Then, you go home, refuse to pay fines, wait another few years, brought back to court again, and get the attachment.



Property taxes will be abandoned long before these chain of events happen though.

The countries courts cannot/could not cope with the scale of non compliance and civil disobedience shown so far.

You cling on to that fantasy.

Ghandee

Vizzy wrote: »

Yeah,I found this(post 9665 from the previous thread) can't quote it directly as it is from a closed thread:

"No, not me. I'm exempt.

Other folk who haven't heard of it (or received an invoice).

How could they party for something they were unaware of?

Remember, this is a court that the prosecution would have to have evidence of proving you were fully aware of."

Why did you go back to find that post?

I answered you, I said I did?

What's your point?

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

You cling on to that fantasy.

Is that your counter argument?

I think the line of events that have to take place both before you can be identified, and the first court case, then the second case needed to try to attach a fine etc to income would be factually correct, no?

Unless you know of another alternative line of events open to the authorities and courts?

Vizzy

Ghandee wrote: »

Why did you go back to find that post?

I answered you, I said yes?

What's your point?

Your reply,when I asked you was "I did?"

Thats not saying yes,thats doubting me !

My "point" is that it must be nice to be exempt from the charge and be on here urging everyone to "don't register,don't pay" and pontificaticing how difficult it will be to track people down if we stick together.
Well we know that they won't track you down anyway cos the're are not looking for you.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Is that your counter argument?

I think the line of events that have to take place both before you can be identified, and the first court case, then the second case needed to try to attach a fine etc to income would be factually correct, no?

Unless you know of another alternative line of events open to the authorities and courts?

There are court cases ongoing. It took just a couple of weeks between summons issued and court appearance. The adjournment was for just one month.


If you think

A) people can drag this out for years, or

the tax will be abolished and outstanding taxes, interest, penalties, fines and court costs will die with it


then that is fantasy, and there's little point in arguing with fantasy. I'll leave you to it.

bgrizzley

Vizzy wrote: »

Your reply,when I asked you was "I did?"

Thats not saying yes,thats doubting me !

My "point" is that it must be nice to be exempt from the charge and be on here urging everyone to "don't register,don't pay" and pontificaticing how difficult it will be to track people down if we stick together.
Well we know that they won't track you down anyway cos the're are not looking for you.

or you could look at it as a guy who this doesnt effect but is willing to speak out against it....

anyway i think he is liable if he doesnt apply for waiver (which he didnt afaik)

Ghandee

Vizzy wrote: »

Your reply,when I asked you was "I did?"

Thats not saying yes,thats doubting me !

My "point" is that it must be nice to be exempt from the charge and be on here urging everyone to "don't register,don't pay" and pontificaticing how difficult it will be to track people down if we stick together.
Well we know that they won't track you down anyway cos the're are not looking for you.

You tell that to the most prolific poster on this thread so.

According to a DV, I am in fact liable for the charge.
The onus is on me to register for the exemption, according to him.

Besides, this is a data base building exercise for the property tax, that I will most certainly be considered eligible for (in the govt's eyes).

i can show an objection in an unjust system regardless, can I not?

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

There are court cases ongoing. It took just a couple of weeks between summons issued and court appearance. The adjournment was for just one month.


If you think

A) people can drag this out for years, or

the tax will be abolished and outstanding taxes, interest, penalties, fines and court costs will die with it


then that is fantasy, and there's little point in arguing with fantasy. I'll leave you to it.

How were these people identified?

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

There are court cases ongoing. It took just a couple of weeks between summons issued and court appearance. The adjournment was for just one month.


If you think

A) people can drag this out for years, or

the tax will be abolished and outstanding taxes, interest, penalties, fines and court costs will die with it


then that is fantasy, and there's little point in arguing with fantasy. I'll leave you to it.

off the top of my head i can think of a few reasons why that case would be adjourned again next month (and i know very little about court).
A good solicitor could drag it out for years

lugha

mikom wrote: »

….and all the sycophants on these boards.

And it looked yesterday like there was a consensus to leave this kind of thing behind us. Oh well.

BTW, I am very curious as to how this sycophancy works, given that we are posting anonymously on an internet forum?

tayto lover wrote: »

But cutting pensions and salaries will also lead to less spending in the economy and even more job losses.
We need to pump money into the economy to re-energize it and create jobs

And from where do we get this money? The only people who will lend to us do so if we agree to address our deficit. Everyone knows that there is the negative impact if you remove money from the economy, in any shape or form. But what choice do we have?

Ghandee wrote: »

With anti property tax sentiments running extremely high

But it isn’t. Where is your evidence that opposition to property tax runs deeper than any other austerity measures that have been introduced? No doubt you’ll point to the large number than have not paid.

But you assume that all or many of them have not paid the HHC because they oppose a property tax in principle. But I could equally assume that given the miniscule penalties for not paying, all or many of them are adopting a “wait and see” position.

There is no more credibility for your assumption than there is for mine. And given that the main government party is bouncing along nicely in the opinion polls, it rather undermines any suggestion that the electorate are especially unhappy with them for any particular reason. You obviously wish that this was the case, but there is no evidence that it actually is.

Ghandee wrote: »

I cannot for the life of me understand why they continue to commit political suicide by insisting they'll introduce it.

Possibly because they are reading the situation differently (and I would say more accurately) than you?

Vizzy

Ghandee wrote: »

i can show an objection in an unjust system regardless, can I not?

Absolutely !

It rings a bit hollow though when there is no implications for you.
(I'm off to urge the Govt to do away with LPA,Childerns allowance and to call for a 50% cut in Social Welfare as none of these affect me)

dttq

I love all these "I'm not paying the household tax", yeah sure you're not. If it comes in you'll have no bloody choice but to. Such false posturing.

Ghandee

Vizzy wrote: »

Absolutely !

It rings a bit hollow though when there is no implications for you.
(I'm off to urge the Govt to do away with LPA,Childerns allowance and to call for a 50% cut in Social Welfare as none of these affect me)

You've chosen to ignore where I pointed out that I'm expected to register to be exempt.



Why?

Vizzy

Ghandee wrote: »

You've chosen to ignore where I pointed out that I'm expected to register to be exempt.



Why?

If you are exempt,why have you a difficulty registering ?

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

But it isn’t. Where is your evidence that opposition to property tax runs deeper than any other austerity measures that have been introduced? No doubt you’ll point to the large number than have not paid.

But you assume that all or many of them have not paid the HHC because they oppose a property tax in principle. But I could equally assume that given the miniscule penalties for not paying, all or many of them are adopting a “wait and see” position.

There is no more credibility for your assumption than there is for mine. And given that the main government party is bouncing along nicely in the opinion polls, it rather undermines any suggestion that the electorate are especially unhappy with them for any particular reason.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1019/1224325459089.html

Ghandee

Vizzy wrote: »

If you are exempt,why have you a difficulty registering ?

Because I won't be enabling them to build a database for a property tax that.

A, gets us nothing that we can tie directly to services, indeed many believe the money previously used to fund local councils had been diverted to the banks and bondholders.

B, registering is consenting that you agree to be charged God knows how much, at a later date.


Why do you think the govt won't tell us anything about this tax until they have everyone signed up and on board?

It'll be no good whinging about it afterwards though, the time for bud nipping is now.

Incidentally, can I now take it that you understand why I'm urging others not to register or pay? It affects me as much as the next person.

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1019/1224325459089.html

Where is the evidence that opposition to property tax is any stronger than to any other austere measures, such as the USC or increased income tax (when it comes) or cuts to (as opposed to means-testing of) child benefit? The report also cites a majority who oppose direct water charges for example.

The impression you and others try to put out is that the electorate find something fundamentally objectionable about a property tax, that they might (reluctantly) accept any other harsh medicine, but draw the line at a property tax. A majority may not like the idea of paying ~ €500 per year (how surprising!), but the won't find the alternatives very palatable either.

Lennonist

I am interested in the validity of claims from some quarters that 70% have complied with the household charge, other claims say 60%, initial compliance after the deadline was less than 50% I think. Are there any concrete figures on actual compliance available?

darkhorse

Ghandee wrote: »

With anti property tax sentiments running extremely high, and every other political party opposing a property tax bar the coalition, I cannot for the life of me understand why they continue to commit political suicide by insisting they'll introduce it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1019/1224325457995.html[/QUOTE]


I think myself that if some of them read the newspapers and maybe they could get some idea whats goin on in the country. Really, this government are so far removed from the reality of peoples sufferings, its unbelievable. Now, maybe I'm berating them in the wrong. Maybe they hav'nt got an expense account for newspapers in D.E.

darkhorse

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

When you die the person that gets your house in a will has to pay it before they can receive the house.Is that true

I'll fcuking burning it to the ground a few minutes before I die.

lugha

darkhorse wrote: »

I think myself that if some of them read the newspapers and maybe they could get some idea whats goin on in the country. Really, this government are so far removed from the reality of peoples sufferings, its unbelievable.

You are deluded if you think the choice is between a property tax and nothing. If the property tax is abandoned, and there is no indication that it will be, then the amount that would have been raised from the public in property tax will be raised using some other tax, ........ from the public.

How in tune the government are or are not with peoples suffering is irrelevant. If you could suggest a course of action that they could take that could seriously address our deficit without increasing the suffering of the people then you would certainly be justified in berating them for not taking it. But of course you can’t make any such suggestion because there isn’t one.

mikom

lugha wrote: »

How in tune the government are or are not with peoples suffering is irrelevant.

Let them eat cake.

That ended well for the last leader that uttered it.

dvpower

Lennonist wrote: »

I am interested in the validity of claims from some quarters that 70% have complied with the household charge, other claims say 60%, initial compliance after the deadline was less than 50% I think. Are there any concrete figures on actual compliance available?

Last figures I'm aware of are 66% (linky)

lugha

mikom wrote: »

Let them eat cake.

That ended well for the last leader that uttered it.

Politicians feeling the pain of the people (genuine or faux) doesn’t put bread (or cake) on their tables. It makes for good, or bad, PR. Nothing more. What they do, and not what they feel is what counts.

So is there something that this, or any alternative government, could do that will not cause considerable hardship for many people? Well I am all ears if you have a meaningful proposal.

darkhorse

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't see why a property tax would be any more unpopular than any other tax that raises the same revenue in the same period of time. And don't try and tell me its the principle of having to pay a tax on your home that you and all the others disagree with, the reason there is such opposition is because people don't want to, or can't pay any more tax regardless of what form it comes in.

And I haven't seen any opposition parties or anyone in this thread come up with practical alternatives to a property tax that would somehow be more palatable to the electorate.

It would be more unpopular for several reasons, which I am not going to go into every time someone joins the thread. But what I will tell you, is, that from my own perspective, whether the mortgage is paid off or not, having this charge/future tax imposed on my family home, without any services in return, would be akin to being burgled again and again and again.

Its true, a lot of people dont want to pay, also true that a lot of people can't pay, whether they want to or not.

As regards practical alternatives, if you dont watch current affairs programmes or read newspapers, may I suggest that you google some information of this. There has been alternatives offered, (not least by one FG TD, who, incidently, I have the greatest respect for, although I would not be either advocate or vote FG, but this government dont want to listen to alternative suggestions.

dxhound2005

Lennonist wrote: »

I am interested in the validity of claims from some quarters that 70% have complied with the household charge, other claims say 60%, initial compliance after the deadline was less than 50% I think. Are there any concrete figures on actual compliance available?

The estimate set by government last year was that there were approx 1.61 million properties liable which if there was full compliance would produce a return of €161 m. That is still their target. To date approx 66% of that amount has been collected. All the original predictions and arguments were based on the 1.61 m estimate and for my own part I am sticking to my prediction of 10 months ago that 75% of the €161 m will be collected by year end

The estimate was made before the census figures of 2011 were published. That is what has left the percentage of compliance open to argument. They are very detailed figures but summarised here so you can interpret them however you like.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=172055

owner occupied and mortgage free 566,776
owner occupied with a mortgage 583,148
Renting from a private landlord or housing body 320,319
Renting from a local authority 129,033
Living rent-free and not stated 50,132
Total households 1,649,408
And total housing units:

Total households 1,649,408
Vacant homes 230 ,056
Vacant holiday homes 59,395
Difference not explained 55,986
Total housing stock 1,994,845

miftha

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Vacant homes 230 ,056
Vacant holiday homes 59,395
Difference not explained 55,986

And vacant homes are not exempt!

A small number of unsold homes (still with builders) are.

Figures are not 66% paid, but of course the governement need to spin it that the vast majority agree with this plan. How many next year who did pay the HHC will refuse to pay the property tax?

dxhound2005

miftha wrote: »

And vacant homes are not exempt!

A small number of unsold homes (still with builders) are.

Figures are not 66% paid, but of course the governement need to spin it that the vast majority agree with this plan. How many next year who did pay the HHC will refuse to pay the property tax?

But many vacant properties could be exempt. What is your actual figure for "small number"? Some of these could well be in "ghost estates" where the occupied properties are also exempt.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/household_charge.html

Exemptions

Residential properties are exempt from the Household Charge if they are:
•Part of the trading stock of a business and have not been sold or been the source of any income since construction.

mikom

lugha wrote: »

Politicians feeling the pain of the people (genuine or faux) doesn’t put bread (or cake) on their tables. It makes for good, or bad, PR. Nothing more. What they do, and not what they feel is what counts.

So is there something that this, or any alternative government, could do that will not cause considerable hardship for many people? Well I am all ears if you have a meaningful proposal.

Feelings influence actions.
If your feelings don't influence your actions then you must be a robot.
I know Enda looks like an android, but...........

I wonder what feelings of pain Nelson Mandela experienced whilst locked up?
Probably similar to his people.
Did they influence what he went on to do?
Of course they did.

sam1970

its all mad ted