Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Le_Dieux

Guess we'll all be on the streets come the New Year: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tougher-budget-on-way-as-growth-stalls-3281210.html

And linked into the comments above is THIS, which is VERY disturbing: http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2012/10/09/1199151/its-austerity-multiplier-failure/

Greece? Here we come!:(

lugha

mikom wrote: »

Feelings influence actions.
If your feelings don't influence your actions then you must be a robot.
I know Enda looks like an android, but...........

I wonder what feelings of pain Nelson Mandela experienced whilst locked up?
Probably similar to his people.
Did they influence what he went on to do?
Of course they did.

All this touchy, feely stuff is grand though I personally tend to be rather cynical (maybe unfairly) about any politician playing the empathy with the people card.

In any case, ultimately we are constrained by reality and the limits of what is possible. So I’ll ask you again: if you think there is a path out of the almighty hole we are in that will not require measures that will impact on ordinary people then I (and I’m sure Enda! would dearly love to hear them.

As a reminder of the fine mess we are in let me remind you that it would require of the order of a little less than €10,000 per worker per year, to completely eliminate our deficit. That’s about 20 property taxes!!!!

Moan about Enda all you want. He will eventually be replaced by someone else, long before we recover. And whoever the new kid is, they won’t have any magic solutions either.

lugha

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Guess we'll all be on the streets come the New Year: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tougher-budget-on-way-as-growth-stalls-3281210.html

And what problem will us all going on to the street fix? And how?

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

And what problem will us all going on to the street fix? And how?

For one Lugha, they can squeeze me all they want - I have nothing left to give...period!!! I am sure there are thousands exactly like me ( or perhaps worse off).

Can You PLEASE explain the logic to me whereby the economy is SCREAMING out for upliftment, and surely one of the most positive ways to put money in people's pockets so they MAY spend again. Nah, this bunch wouyld rather suck blood from a stone...us being that stone!!!

I do agree ( can't believe I am saying this;-)) with Your previous post where You make the following comment: Moan about Enda all you want. He will eventually be replaced by someone else, long before we recover. And whoever the new kid is, they won’t have any magic solutions either. For me, kenny would gain a LOT more respect if he had the balls to stand up to the higher echelons in the PS...and make some MEANINGFUL deductions on td's pay/perks etc. Also, if he ONLY acted on some of the 'promises' he made to get into power. But anyhow, now he has made his bed, let him lie on it! :mad:

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

And what problem will us all going on to the street fix? And how?

Apologies, I don't think I covered Your question enough.

It will show the pr1cks in DE that we have had enough. That we can't take anymore. They want more blood from the average bloke in the street, but they won't set an example by themselves making MEANINGFUL changes to their pay. It's a gravy train, that I think the people are FED UP funding!

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Renting from a local authority 129,033

I know a few of these people, dx , in fact one of them is a close friend of mine, earning three times more than what I do, and he is exempt. How laughable is that.

lugha

Le_Dieux wrote: »

...and make some MEANINGFUL deductions on td's pay/perks etc.

You cannot make meaningful cuts to TDs pay / perks because there simply is not enough of them. The total cost of them is certainly too high (over €100 million I think) but if you took every cent off that of them that would barely dent the deficit, which is about €13,000 million. (Which is not to say that their renumeration package should not be heavily adjusted BTW.)

To do something meaningful (as opposed to symbolic) in terms of cost cutting you would have to cut either social welfare and / or public sector pay. But when this happens, and it will, you are back to imposing hardship on ordinary people.

So my question remains. Is there a way out that will avoid impacting on ordinary people?

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Guess we'll all be on the streets come the New Year

Le_Dieux wrote: »

It will show the pr1cks in DE that we have had enough. That we can't take anymore.

If we've had enough and can't take anymore, then why are you waiting 'till the new year before taking to the streets?
Wouldn't it make more sense to take to the streets now (or at least before the budget)?

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

You cannot make meaningful cuts to TDs pay / perks because there simply is not enough of them. The total cost of them is certainly too high (over €100 million I think) but if you took every cent off that of them that would barely dent the deficit, which is about €13,000 million. (Which is not to say that their renumeration package should not be heavily adjusted BTW.)

To do something meaningful (as opposed to symbolic) in terms of cost cutting you would have to cut either social welfare and / or public sector pay. But when this happens, and it will, you are back to imposing hardship on ordinary people.

So my question remains. Is there a way out that will avoid impacting on ordinary people?

I have to sit down upon reading this................whew!!! You for real Lugha? I'll reply later if You don't mind. I'm the chef tonight, and need to digest what You just wrote.

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

You cannot make meaningful cuts to TDs pay / perks because there simply is not enough of them. The total cost of them is certainly too high (over €100 million I think) but if you took every cent off that of them that would barely dent the deficit, which is about €13,000 million. (Which is not to say that their renumeration package should not be heavily adjusted BTW.)

To do something meaningful (as opposed to symbolic) in terms of cost cutting you would have to cut either social welfare and / or public sector pay. But when this happens, and it will, you are back to imposing hardship on ordinary people.

So my question remains. Is there a way out that will avoid impacting on ordinary people?

WOW Lugha, what planet You on? So, the way I interpret your statement above ( You cannot make meaningful cuts to TDs pay / perks because there simply is not enough of them. ). IMHO, You say then let them screw us, let them pillage the ( DWINDELING )coffers??? FFS adopt that attitude we might as well let them write their own cheque - they are in any case.

For me, hold them to their PRE-election promises: drastically cut the quango's eliminate the seanad, reduce the number of td's ( which they are making noises about )also let them make their own way to DE...NOT US pay their fcuking fuel for them. They are WELL paid to adorn the chambers in Kildare street without us having to have our faces rubbed into the sh1te thats spewed all over the streets. AND cut the sh1te with the likes of that gobsh1te in Wexford. Sue the thief and lock him up. You ( the govt.) dragged your heels over getting your first ex-billionaire into jail, and only got him locked up for 9 weeks on a charge of CONTEMPT.

I am sure there are MANY other reasons for nailing them on their expenses and salaries, but none can come to my head right now.

Last night, I was at a 'farewell party' for a Nephew of mine. He, His wife and 3yo Daughter are leaving these shores on Wednesday for New Zealand. I am 56 I don't give a sh1t about myself, but HE & His Family are the future. He told me He cannot get out of this kip soon enough. He is a quantity surveyor, who is out of a job for 2 years now. Sadly He is everything that epitomises where our effing country is going in the future!!!

Le_Dieux

For Your amusement Lugha, later on I will try to google the cost of the quango'as to the state, the cost of that basstard in Wexford, what HE has cost the State, what the cost of ditching the seanad to the State, remember they are getting new tablet pc's which we are paying for, what the cost to the State is by not reducing the number of td's.

Nah, there ain't 'enough of them' to make a difference. I disagree, it ALL adds up..

BUT for me the BIGGEST gripe I have is that shower are milking the system dry, and are not prepared to make a stand and LEAD BY EXAMPLE!!!

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

If the property tax is abandoned, then the amount that would have been raised from the public in property tax will be raised using some other tax.
But of course you can’t make any such suggestion because there isn’t one.

“Sinn Féin’s Wealth Tax is a more equitable proposal which links ability to pay with a percentage tax on all property, physical, material and financial, over €1million.
“Our Wealth Tax allows 20% write-off of the value of the principal residence. It is estimated to bring in €800million in a full year.”
So there is an alternative to the Property Tax. It is fair and progressive. Why won’t the Fine Gael/Labour Government implement a Wealth Tax?

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

“Sinn Féin’s Wealth Tax is a more equitable proposal which links ability to pay with a percentage tax on all property, physical, material and financial, over €1million.
“Our Wealth Tax allows 20% write-off of the value of the principal residence. It is estimated to bring in €800million in a full year.”
So there is an alternative to the Property Tax. It is fair and progressive. Why won’t the Fine Gael/Labour Government implement a Wealth Tax?

Do Sinn Fein do a wealth tax in the North? No.

Do they do a property tax? Yes

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-are-rates

What are rates?

Domestic rates are a property tax based on the valuation of your home


They will say one thing in opposition do the opposite in power.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

So there is an alternative to the Property Tax. It is fair and progressive. Why won’t the Fine Gael/Labour Government implement a Wealth Tax?

How do SF propose to prevent wealthy people from simply moving their assets to another jurisdiction if the SF wealth tax is introduced?

miftha

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But many vacant properties could be exempt. What is your actual figure for "small number"? Some of these could well be in "ghost estates" where the occupied properties are also exempt.

I can play the same game. What are your actual figures for many vacant properties could be exempt?

Let me guesstimate for those numbers for you....

Number in ghost estates probably small - let's say 15K (high for me)
Number owned by builders who for some reason don't want to sell them at cost (rather continue to have interest build up) or can't sell them no matter what the price (due to being in silly locations, etc) - let's say 25k (I think that's also high).
Anything classed as a holiday home must be owned by someone, therefore is not exempt. How else can it be determined to be a holiday home.

We have ~345K missing from your numbers, I doubt more than 45k could be classed as exempt for some reason. That's 300k missing from the magical 1.6m the government want to use. I think ~1.85m is closer to reality (based on what I have seen reported elsewhere) and for some reason is rarely ever mentioned in main stream media.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Exemptions

Residential properties are exempt from the Household Charge if they are:
•Part of the trading stock of a business and have not been sold or been the source of any income since construction.

I also find this statement very interesting, "been the source of any income since construction". That's how I classify my home. I will make €0 from my house when interest (mortgage) and upkeep are factored in, if I ever sold (ignoring negative equity and stamp duty - I bought to live in for life), unless we have another magical boom. My kids will make the money and they will be taxed on it.


Even if my numbers are inaccurate (very likely) I am sure you can admit the ~1.6m number is not accurate. Even if we went 50:50 on the missing number it is wrong. No doubt the government need to make the numbers seem like a huge majority have paid in order to in-still fear in the remaining non-payers to feel they must pay to be part of the crowd. As you are well aware, selective metrics can be used to make any agenda work :rolleyes:


P.S. (to all): I have no sympathy for those in Mayo being brought before the court. If you have multiple properties then I think you are greedy or wealthy. Therefore why should any ordinary tax payer/home owner be expected to protest for them. FF and or the current government should have imposed very high taxes/charges on those owning multiple properties as they do make money from it. Would also have had an impact on the property boom.

As we are on the topic of exemptions - you can be pretty sure they will not last long when there is easy money to be made (government wise - sure we all make money from our houses to pay for it).

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

And from where do we get this money? The only people who will lend to us do so if we agree to address our deficit. Everyone knows that there is the negative impact if you remove money from the economy, in any shape or form. But what choice do we have?

Possibly because they are reading the situation differently (and I would say more accurately) than you?

I know that I said it twice before on this forum and I dont like repeating myself, but if a poster asks a question pertaining to the discussion, I feel obliged to answer.
And from where do we get this money, you ask? Well, what would be so wrong with our govt. making a case to bondholders to wait for their money, at least until the economy is stronger. I mean, its not as if they are stuck for the money(I heard one economist say some time ago that the bondholders could'nt believe that that they were getting so much money from the irish govt., and them after gambling and losing), or that we are leaving the country with their money.
Regarding your other sentence, lugha, ya see the one with the man with one eye at the end of it, could you tell me, what situation are they reading differently, and accurately than anyone.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

A majority may not like the idea of paying ~ €500 per year (how surprising!).

You'll really have to explain this one to me. Do you mean that are people in the country that will like the idea of paying €500 per year (that would be suprising)

Le_Dieux

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do Sinn Fein do a wealth tax in the North? No.

Do they do a property tax? Yes

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-are-rates

What are rates?

Domestic rates are a property tax based on the valuation of your home


They will say one thing in opposition do the opposite in power.

No offence DH, but personally, I would prefer if SF were kept out of this discussion. There are too many unanswered questions when it comes to them for my liking.

Hate to say this, but give me a 'ahearnless' FF any day above SF.

lugha

Le_Dieux wrote: »

WOW Lugha, what planet You on? WOW Lugha,

A planet where savings of the order of €100 million (and even the most radical realistic reform of the political system would only yield a fraction of that in savings) do not make a meaningful difference when you are attempting to deal with a deficit of €1,300 million. It is less than 1%.

Make these changes if you wish. But you will still have to come back with a meaningful* plan (i.e. one that actually has an impact). And that (I contend) will in one form or another, involve a lot of tough medicine for ordinary people. I have asked a few times now (without reply), can anyone offer a comprehensive way of dealing with our deficit which will not in have an impact on ordinary people.

* Perhaps there is some confusion arising from what I mean by meaningful. By this I mean a measure or a collection of measures that will have a substantial (i.e. meaningful!) impact on our deficit. And if your big plan will only reduce the deficit by a fraction of 1%, then that is not meaningful in the sense I mean.

You allude to the notion that they might “lead by example”. Fine, if that’s your thing. But I would call this symbolic rather than meaningful, though I guess you favour the latter term.

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I will try to google the cost of the quangos to the state

Ah yes, the quangos! Lump them all in together as seems to be the fashion these days. So would you abolish them all? Enterprise Ireland? Bord Failte (or whatever they are called these days)? And there are plenty of others. (There are of course also plenty that we could do without).

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

So my question remains. Is there a way out that will avoid impacting on ordinary people?

Yeah. DONT REGISTER, DONT PAY.

miftha

lugha wrote: »

You cannot make meaningful cuts to TDs pay / perks because there simply is not enough of them. The total cost of them is certainly too high (over €100 million I think) but if you took every cent off that of them that would barely dent the deficit, which is about €13,000 million. (Which is not to say that their renumeration package should not be heavily adjusted BTW.)

To do something meaningful (as opposed to symbolic) in terms of cost cutting you would have to cut either social welfare and / or public sector pay. But when this happens, and it will, you are back to imposing hardship on ordinary people.

So my question remains. Is there a way out that will avoid impacting on ordinary people?

You think paying the HHC makes a meaningful difference?
Property tax will make a dent with 100% compliance of all properties (no exemptions) - better still land tax not value. 100% compliance is never going to happen.

So what's next? Increased income taxes?

As Mr Haughey said before "we need to live within our means". We need to cut the spending and waste and that needs to start at the top and be forced down quickly. Unfortunately politicians and the upper echelon of our PS are never going to do that without national unrest :mad

This government are just waiting for the 2 years for their bumper pensions (crazy) and will then walk away at some stage like the last bunch.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do Sinn Fein do a wealth tax in the North? No.
Do they do a property tax? Yes[/QUOTE]


But this is the South, dx. Why would the North come into this discussion?

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

How do SF propose to prevent wealthy people from simply moving their assets to another jurisdiction if the SF wealth tax is introduced?

Dont know. Ask Sinn Fein.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do Sinn Fein do a wealth tax in the North? No.

Do they do a property tax? Yes

Not a property tax but rates

Which I, and many (in fact I think all of us in the 'no' camp) have said all along would have no problem paying towards.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-are-rates

What are rates?

Domestic rates are a property tax based on the valuation of your home

Make sure and leave out the most important piece of the above copied and pasted text from above there now Dx, wont you.

Allow me.

What do your rates pay for?
Bin collections Your rates are made up of the district rate and the regional rate.
District rate
The district rate is fixed annually by each council and the rate will vary from council to council. Income from the district rate is used to meet the costs of providing a range of services.

We provide a range of council services such as:

bin collections and recycling
leisure centres
parks
events
council venues
street cleaning
economic indicatives
building control.

Find out what other services we provide
Regional rate
The regional rate is set by Central Government.

Income from the regional rate is used to meet the costs of providing services like:

education
health
personal social services
housing
roads
sewerage
water

Im sure we'd all agree that with:

• free health care and on average 4€ for any prescription
• free education, no book fees, free school transport
• refuse collection, which includes free removal of large white goods (cookers etc) removed from your property, for free
• Vastly lower motor tax with no tolled roads.

Would be a bargain at.... 700-800 per year.

Please list what services the HHC/Property tax will bring us?

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They will say one thing in opposition do the opposite in power.

indeed.

“It is morally [wrong,] unjust and unfair to tax a person’s home” Enda Kenny

Fine Gael Enterprise Spokesman Leo Varadkar TD has called on Taoiseach Brian Cowen to rule out the introduction of a property tax, following the controversial proposal from the National Economic and Social Council (NESC).

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=130

A year ago today Leo Varadkar said that not another red cent would be paid to the banks. Today, the Taoiseach has insisted we will not seek to impose any losses on bondholders.

http://www.thejournal.ie/not-another-red-cent/news/

Labours way or Frankfurts way

The below link is defintely worth checking out.

http://laboursway.com/

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

Dont know. Ask Sinn Fein.

A big hole in your alternative proposal so.

Am Chile

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Guess we'll all be on the streets come the New Year: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tougher-budget-on-way-as-growth-stalls-3281210.html

And linked into the comments above is THIS, which is VERY disturbing: http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2012/10/09/1199151/its-austerity-multiplier-failure/

Greece? Here we come!:(

dvpower wrote: »

If we've had enough and can't take anymore, then why are you waiting 'till the new year before taking to the streets?
Wouldn't it make more sense to take to the streets now (or at least before the budget)?

Reminder for all non payers-national anti susterity march to take place three weeks from now on November 24th-I hope all non payers will be able to make the march in three weeks time.

Ghandee

Am Chile wrote: »

Reminder for all non payers-national anti susterity march to take place three weeks from now on November 24th-I hope all non payers will be able to make the march in three weeks time.

I'll be there.

miftha

dvpower wrote: »

A big hole in your alternative proposal so.

Since we are in the business of caring what foreign parties do, lets bring in a religion tax like they do in Germany :P

Plenty of money to be made from the supposed 80%+ Catholics in this country. €100/year/person should suffice, no exemptions. Sure they are making money or wealth from their religion.

Am Chile

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do Sinn Fein do a wealth tax in the North? No.

Do they do a property tax? Yes

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-are-rates

What are rates?

Domestic rates are a property tax based on the valuation of your home


They will say one thing in opposition do the opposite in power.

I notice in a lot of your posts you often bring up Sinn Fein and Rates up North- The last time I looked, Peter Robinson was still the first minister, (Peter Robinson of the DUP when rates were applying at that time- Rates have existed in the north for decades-rates existed back in the day when Gerry Adams had his voice dubbed over on the news headlines. (long before Sinn Fein got into a power sharing executive-Sinn Fein have been operating a shared government with the DUP for less than a decade- rates aren,t something Sinn Fein brought in and Implemented when they started sharing power in 2007-rates were there long before hand.

dvpower

miftha wrote: »

Since we are in the business of caring what foreign parties do, lets bring in a religion tax like they do in Germany :P

Plenty of money to be made from the supposed 80%+ Catholics in this country. €100/year/person should suffice, no exemptions. Sure they are making money or wealth from their religion.

SF aren't a foreign party and church taxes go to the churches, not to the state.