Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

K-9

I'm sure Germany have their own cases of the elderly and children treated poorly, no system is perfect and ever will be. I'm sure a country that practised wage restraint for over a decade are a bit miffed in helping other countries out. It mightn't be aid but they are staking their reputation as collateral.

As for rates or this tax, we aren't going to get anything extra for this tax, I think it's naieve to expect otherwise. Why would we given the budget?

Austerity hasn't worked internationally, that's the FT link posted earlier. It has worked to a certain extent here. Growth is negligble but the deficit is on target, its a balancing act. We can argue about where austerity is targeted but Ireland actually has a pretty low fiscal multiplier effect, to get all economical.

The problem isn't austerity and cuts here, they have to be done, it's how they are targeted. No SW rate cuts, no cuts to PS pay and on the tax side, no Income tax raises.

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

Their will be plenty of banners from any number of political parties and anti austerity groups LD.

You're not obliged to affiliate with, or march under any banner representing any group either.

(done let anyone stop you marching if you feel it is right to do so mate)

As I said a long time ago, I would march, but under NO political banner. In fairness to AC, He also pointed this out to me, there is no obligation to march under any part banner.

Just hope the sh1tstirrers are not out that day.

Le_Dieux

K-9 wrote: »

Actually we are far from Greece. While the FT piece is correct internationally, Ireland is actually an outlier when it comes to austerity, it does damage but not to the extent of Greece, Portugal, France etc.

France? Where do they come into the picture K9?

Le_Dieux

K-9 wrote: »

Snip.........

As for rates or this tax, we aren't going to get anything extra for this tax, I think it's naieve to expect otherwise. Why would we given the budget?

...............snip

Isn't that what is totally wrong with this HHC K9? We are being told to pay this charge/tax and get nothing for it. Then people look to foreign shores, and see ( in the UK's case) what they get for their fee. Bin collection/GP's etc.

I agree, we will get nothing extra, but then why must we, the hardpressed household owner, have to pay more for something we never caused?

lugha

K-9 wrote: »

I do think this is more emotional, Irish people and the gra for the ould plot, fuelled the boom and the crash after all. The social charge was unpopular but this has "the Field" element to it as well.

There is undoubtedly an element of this in play. But I would also say that there is conservative streak to resist the new and unfamiliar. There was a very similar emotive response when the smoking ban was introduced. There were all manner of dark mutterings about this “doing” for FF at the next election. And of course we know what happened, or rather didn’t happen.

Granted the smoking ban had a social rather than economic impact and in a neat symmetry, we were the first to introduce such a ban and will be one of the last to introduce a property tax. But anyone who remembers the smoking ban’s introduction will recognise familiar echoes here, with references to political suicide and the like.

Granted the property tax might well “do” for this government, though as Albert Reynolds (?) once said, it is as often as not some little thing that does for you. But equally well, it might be instantly accepted as the smoking ban was. I expect it will largely hinge on how the court cases play out.

K-9

Le_Dieux wrote: »

France? Where do they come into the picture K9?

They are referred to in the FT article you quoted.

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

There is undoubtedly an element of this in play. But I would also say that there is conservative streak to resist the new and unfamiliar. There was a very similar emotive response when the smoking ban was introduced. There were all manner of dark mutterings about this “doing” for FF at the next election. And of course we know what happened, or rather didn’t happen.

Granted the smoking ban had a social rather than economic impact and in a neat symmetry, we were the first to introduce such a ban and will be one of the last to introduce a property tax. But anyone who remembers the smoking ban’s introduction will recognise familiar echoes here, with references to political suicide and the like.

Granted the property tax might well “do” for this government, though as Albert Reynolds (?) once said, it is as often as not some little thing that does for you. But equally well, it might be instantly accepted as the smoking ban was. I expect it will largely hinge on how the court cases play out.

comparing to the smoking ban isnt like with like. when the ban came in i wasnt happy about it but at least i had a choice. i could stand out in the rain(rarely) or i could not go to the pub(more often than not). fair enough, i didnt like but i can accept that.

there is no choice here. you are backed into a corner with an implied threat on your home. yes the field comes into it here, but try and remember that if half of the country didnt have the passion for their homes that you see in the protest about this tax, we wouldnt even be a Republic now...

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

there is no choice here. you are backed into a corner with an implied threat on your home. yes the field comes into it here, but try and remember that if half of the country didnt have the passion for their homes that you see in the protest about this tax, we wouldnt even be a Republic now...

There is no threat to anybody's home - the only people implying the threat are you and other scaremongers on the anti property tax side.

Le_Dieux

K-9 wrote: »

They are referred to in the FT article you quoted.

Apologies K9, the only reference to France I can find ( I know my sight ain't the best:-)) is this:

And the IMF is urging that countries who have ‘room to maneuvre’ such as the UK, France and the Netherlands, should “smooth their planned adjustment over 2013 and beyond” if growth falls significantly below the IMF’s increasingly gloomy forecasts.

dxhound2005

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Isn't that what is totally wrong with this HHC K9? We are being told to pay this charge/tax and get nothing for it. Then people look to foreign shores, and see ( in the UK's case) what they get for their fee. Bin collection/GP's etc.

I agree, we will get nothing extra, but then why must we, the hardpressed household owner, have to pay more for something we never caused?

In the case England and Wales Council Tax only pays for about 25% of local spending. So the big long lists of everything people get for property tax in the GB and NI is not really correct is it? Three quarters is being paid for by income tax etc passed on in central government grants much like this country. I am still better off paying €100 HHC and €280 for bins compared to an average £1200 Council Tax. And in England and Wales they have to pay for water separately from the Council Tax.

http://www.council-tax.com/localservices.html

Council Tax is used to contribute to the funding of local services. It generates about 25 billion pounds a year and makes up about a quarter of local authority financing with the rest of the money provided by central government grants and redistributed national non domestic rates.

Le_Dieux

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In the case England and Wales Council Tax only pays for about 25% of local spending. So the big long lists of everything people get for property tax in the GB and NI is not really correct is it? Three quarters is being paid for by income tax etc passed on in central government grants much like this country. I am still better off paying €100 HHC and €280 for bins compared to an average £1200 Council Tax. And in England and Wales they have to pay for water separately from the Council Tax.

http://www.council-tax.com/localservices.html

Council Tax is used to contribute to the funding of local services. It generates about 25 billion pounds a year and makes up about a quarter of local authority financing with the rest of the money provided by central government grants and redistributed national non domestic rates.

Using Your figures here DX, the UK uses £100million on a population of (what?) 50 million? Our lot want €160m for a population of ( what?) 4.5Million? Based on those figures each person in the UK equates to £2/person while here it is €35.5. Why is there such a difference?

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Using Your figures here DX, the UK uses £100million on a population of (what?) 50 million? Our lot want €160m for a population of ( what?) 4.5Million? Based on those figures each person in the UK equates to £2/person while here it is €35.5. Why is there such a difference?

You're only out by a factor of 1000

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

UK, population 62.6 million
100,000,000 / 62,000,000 = £1.66

Ireland, population 4.7 million
160,000,000 / 4 ,000,000 = €40.

Nearly fifty times more. :eek:

Kills me to say this but dv is right, it's BILLION, not million in the UK's case Ghandee.

Sorry

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

In the case England and Wales Council Tax only pays for about 25% of local spending. So the big long lists of everything people get for property tax in the GB and NI is not really correct is it? Three quarters is being paid for by income tax etc passed on in central government grants much like this country. I am still better off paying €100 HHC and €280 for bins compared to an average £1200 Council Tax. And in England and Wales they have to pay for water separately from the Council Tax.

http://www.council-tax.com/localservices.html

Council Tax is used to contribute to the funding of local services. It generates about 25 billion pounds a year and makes up about a quarter of local authority financing with the rest of the money provided by central government grants and redistributed national non domestic rates.

Where's our income tax going to so?

What's it being spent on, seeing as how we already pay for refuse/health/education separately, and in some cases to private companies.

Then they expect a property tax to pay for local services on top of everything else.

So, in the UK.

Income tax/council tax pays for services.

Ireland, income tax/pay privately for refuse/health/education, them a property tax to pay for local services too.

What does our income tax get spent on so?

mikom

Ghandee wrote: »

Where's our income tax going to so?

What's it being spent on, seeing as how we already pay for refuse/health/education separately, and in some cases to private companies.

Then they expect a property tax to pay for local services on top of everything else.

So, in the UK.

Income tax/council tax pays for services.

Ireland, income tax/pay privately for refuse/health/education, them a property tax to pay for local services too.

What does our income tax get spent on so?

Add in the ould vehicle registration tax and the universal social charge on top of that.
Another two those in the UK need not worry about being pissed away.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

What does our income tax get spent on so?

Hope this helps in your research.
http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2637

K-9

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Apologies K9, the only reference to France I can find ( I know my sight ain't the best:-)) is this:

And the IMF is urging that countries who have ‘room to maneuvre’ such as the UK, France and the Netherlands, should “smooth their planned adjustment over 2013 and beyond” if growth falls significantly below the IMF’s increasingly gloomy forecasts.

The study was on 28 different economies, I'm kind of assuming France was one of them.

Le_Dieux

mikom wrote: »

Add in the ould vehicle registration tax and the universal social charge on top of that.
Another two those in the UK need not worry about being pissed away.

Not to mention tax payers paying for the td's fuel to attend parliament. Free membership of the AA is another I heard on the radio on Friday. And now FINALLY, it seems there is some head crunching among the aloof tds:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cuts-to-td-and-senator-perks-now-on-the-table-3281807.html

The mind boggles here: Those nearest to DE get 12G's while those from Donegal ( never heard a whisper from doherty about this) 35 G's???

But STILL nothing about their grossly over inflated pensions. And what about Wallace??

Le_Dieux

Hope I'm not overstepping any rule here? Brilliant comment on that Independent link, which am pinching and pasting. If the author is reading this, Sincere apologies:

Let's be clear current Taoiseach and his ministers DID NOT take pay cuts on taking up their positions in Government. The respective ministerial pay rate was cut from that paid to the former Government but current ministers moving from pay levels of a TD c€92,000 pa to That of a minister all enjoyed huge salary increases. The language used to say that current ministers took pay cuts to date is disingeneous to say the least. Do these ministers take the rest of us as fools in making such misleading statements. We all know that our politicians at all levels are grossly over paid/rewarded when compared to their peers worldwide and it is high time for them to cop on and reduce their salaries and limitless unvouched benefits. The greatest scam of all is the new car arrangements for ministers but nobody has bothered to enquire into it's workings believing that FG has reduced the transport costs when in fact the respective ministers are on a real earner with this imaginative scheme. To think that a former teacher like Enda Kenny is paid a salary of €200,000 plus limitless expenses is galling in the extreme particularly as clearly he is not up to the job of Taoiseach under almost any heading. God help Ireland.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Hope this helps in your research.
http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2637

Not as informative as this was.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1031/1224325936119.html?via=mr

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

There is no threat to anybody's home - the only people implying the threat are you and other scaremongers on the anti property tax side.

if phil hogan says i cant transfer my house to my child or sell it without permission from the government thats a threat.

are you foolish enough to trust future governements not to do this?

http://www.elderlawanswers.com/Resources/Article.asp?ID=9956


whats the opposite to a scaremongerer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_goat

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

if phil hogan says i cant transfer my house to my child or sell it without permission from the government thats a threat.

are you foolish enough to trust future governements not to do this?

Nobody needs permission from the government to transfer property. That is just scaremongering.

Edit: That link is from the United States, not this jurisdiction. Putting forward some practice in a foreign jurisdiction and wondering if a future government here might introduce that measure is just about a perfect example of scaremongering that you could come up with. Well done you.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Nobody needs permission from the government to transfer property. That is just scaremongering.

dress it up what ever way you want, but a certificate of discharge if you want to sell/transfer/whatever is permission from the government to do that.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Nobody needs permission from the government to transfer property. That is just scaremongering.

Edit: That link is from the United States, not this jurisdiction. Putting forward some practice in a foreign jurisdiction and wondering if a future government here might introduce that measure is just about a perfect example of scaremongering that you could come up with. Well done you.

Permission? No.

Certificate of discharge? Yes.

What happens if I don't pay?

A person who does not pay the Household Charge by the payment date leaves themselves open to a late payment fee plus interest. Furthermore, the Household Charge and any accumulated late payment fee plus interest will be a charge against the property concerned and will continue to be such for twelve years after the charge or late payment fees plus interest concerned became due. Any Household Charges or late payment fees plus interest due on a residential property will have to be discharged, in full, before a transfer or sale of the property can be completed.

Big fib there dv.

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

dress it up what ever way you want, but a certificate of discharge if you want to sell/transfer/whatever is permission from the government to do that.

Its you that is doing the dressing up. A few posts ago you were saying that the HHC introduced a threat to a persons property. It does not.
Now you've rowed back a bit and recognize that all you need to do is discharge your debts before you choose to sell your property. Which of course does not mean that you need permission, no matter how you want to dress it up.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Edit: That link is from the United States, not this jurisdiction. Putting forward some practice in a foreign jurisdiction and wondering if a future government here might introduce that measure is just about a perfect example of scaremongering that you could come up with. Well done you.

I never implied it was Irish.

you, however, never answered my question. Are you foolish enough to trust an Irish government in the future not to follow that practice in the States?

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Its you that is doing the dressing up. A few posts ago you were saying that the HHC introduced a threat to a persons property. It does not.
Now you've rowed back a bit and recognize that all you need to do is discharge your debts before you choose to sell your property. Which of course does not mean that you need permission, no matter how you want to dress it up.

im not rowing back on anything. getting a c o d is asking permission from the government to sell your property

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

I never implied it was Irish.

you, however, never answered my question. Are you foolish enough to trust an Irish government in the future not to follow that practice in the States?

Why are you continuing to scaremonger? There is no proposal at all, by anyone, to introduce any of the measures contained in your link. The only possible reason for you to introduce it to this discussion is to scaremonger.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Why are you continuing to scaremonger? There is no proposal at all, by anyone, to introduce any of the measures contained in your link. The only possible reason for you to introduce it to this discussion is to scaremonger.

still not an answer

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

still not an answer

Still scaremongering.