Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

bgrizzley

i notice the pro guys dont ever include Iceland when they are saying we should follow other countries example. Why not? They also have a property tax!!

It would be worth paying it just to see them putting bars over the windows of the Dail!!!

tayto lover

emo72 wrote: »

i knew youd say that. heres why i think it does belong here. irish people are being hung out to dry by our government, europe, and the bankers who created this mess. the media is not reporting whats happening in Iceland.

The HHC is a tax thats being foisted on us so we can pay back the money they are lending us, soon to be followed by water tax. is this not obvious?

The Germans left 4.5 million Irish people to bail out 70 million Germans.
But sure Enda gets wee pats on the back and he is allowed to kiss Angela on both cheeks, then she pulls them back up.

emo72

also when Iceland was being portrayed as a basket case it was in the news non-stop. now that they are getting themselves back together, not a whimper.

wall to wall media blitz.........then.........not a whisper. why?

i heard some prick from bord gais on the radio telling us about the plans to tax water this morning. are they ****ing serious?

bgrizzley

tayto lover wrote: »

The Germans left 4.5 million Irish people to bail out 70 million Germans.
But sure Enda gets wee pats on the back and he is allowed to kiss Angela on both cheeks, then she pulls them back up.

Jaysus Tayto, if he has to do that he's worth every penny of his wages.:D

Ghandee

tayto lover wrote: »

The Germans left 4.5 million Irish people to bail out 70 million Germans.
But sure Enda gets wee pats on the back and he is allowed to kiss Angela on both cheeks, then she pulls them back up.

Lol :pac:

K-9

dvpower wrote: »

No it doesn't.
This thread is supposed to be a discussion about the HHC / Property Tax.
That blog post has nothing to do with this thread topic at all. Mind you, the thread has become a dumping ground for almost any topic at all.

Government/Anglo go after Quinn, moan, let Quinn off, moan.

Ghandee

K-9 wrote: »

Government/Anglo go after Quinn, moan, let Quinn off, moan.

I don't get the mentality of some folk that support Quinn.

Stop going on about 'robbing bankers' 'corrupt politicians' and millionaire bondholders, then stand up and support these clowns?

Quinn spent his money, his companies money, and then money he didn't even have, when the shiite hit, he put assets beyond the reach of the govt (yeah, ghandee supports the govt in this case lol).

I know this doesn't apply to anyone on this thread (I don't think anyway) but the 'rebels' that support the biggest hood of them all, (Quinn) really need their heads seen to.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

You had no problem discussing Iceland's situation earlier in this thread. Why so sensitive now.

I can't recall discussing Iceland's situation on this thread at all. Are you sure you're not just making stuff up?

dvpower

emo72 wrote: »

i knew youd say that.

Are you that bloke off that late night TV3 show full of clueless idiots trying to predict the future? You know the one, its on just before the psychics live show.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

I can't recall discussing Iceland's situation on this thread at all. Are you sure you're not just making stuff up?

Well I could be mixing you up with another poster(s), but I don't think so. But if I am, I don't remember you ruling it "off topic" when it was widely discussed.

dvpower

Slick50 wrote: »

Well I could be mixing you up with another poster(s), but I don't think so. But if I am, I don't remember you ruling it "off topic" when it was widely discussed.

You could be both mixed up and have a bad memory. Maybe you should check before you post.

Slick50

dvpower wrote: »

You could be both mixed up and have a bad memory. Maybe you should check before you post.

You're having memory problems yourself if you don't remember the merits or otherwise of how Iceland dealt with their problems, being discussed in this thread. So, do you remember?, and if so, are you claiming to have ruled it "off topic"?

lugha

emo72 wrote: »

i knew youd say that. heres why i think it does belong here. irish people are being hung out to dry by our government, europe, and the bankers who created this mess. the media is not reporting whats happening in Iceland.

The HHC is a tax thats being foisted on us so we can pay back the money they are lending us, soon to be followed by water tax. is this not obvious?

The various austerity measures are necessary to get out deficit under control. We haven’t yet had to endure the effects of our debt burden, that will be a delight for our children and grandchildren (now there is something that really is immoral!)

We are borrowing money (from the only ones who will lend it to us) because we are not raising enough in tax income. And yes, the rotters are actually expecting us to pay them back!

Do you have a solution to our current problem, taken from Iceland or anywhere else, that will eliminate the need for austere measures? (bear in mind that if you say no to challenging austere measures, no one will lend to us, and we will then have no option but to implement devastating austere measures.)

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

The various austerity measures are necessary to get out deficit under control. We haven’t yet had to endure the effects of our debt burden, that will be a delight for our children and grandchildren (now there is something that really is immoral!)

We are borrowing money (from the only ones who will lend it to us) because we are not raising enough in tax income. And yes, the rotters are actually expecting us to pay them back!

Do you have a solution to our current problem, taken from Iceland or anywhere else, that will eliminate the need for austere measures? (bear in mind that if you say no to challenging austere measures, no one will lend to us, and we will then have no option but to implement devastating austere measures.)

You wouldnt need to raise as much bloody tax if the government wasnt so bloody filthy to the core, grabbing all they can and more.
I dont see any TD's worried about stopping there golf club membership or coming out in the media about how austerity messures are crippling them or even effecting them in anyway for that matter.
unvouched allowances of up to 60k??

Tax the homeowners!!!!!! Whatever they have left, take it! keep the peasants down!!!

View

Hijpo wrote: »

You wouldnt need to raise as much bloody tax if the government wasnt so bloody filthy to the core, grabbing all they can and more.
I dont see any TD's worried about stopping there golf club membership or coming out in the media about how austerity messures are crippling them or even effecting them in anyway for that matter.
unvouched allowances of up to 60k??

Tax the homeowners!!!!!! Whatever they have left, take it! keep the peasants down!!!

So that's a "No, I don't have a solution to our current problem, taken from Iceland or anywhere else, that will eliminate the need for austere measures", is it?

View

tayto lover wrote: »

The Germans left 4.5 million Irish people to bail out 70 million Germans.

You might want to take a look at the Central Bank's figures on that.

Their figures in "Table A.4.2 - Liabilities" show that in September '08 - just before the bank guarantee - the breakdown of Debt Securities (mainly Bonds) issued by our credit institutions as being:

• Irish Resident - 23.5 Billion
• Eurozone - 14.3 Billion
• Rest of World - 59.2 Billion

In other words, Germany didn't leave Ireland to bail them out since their exposure to the mess we were in was a minor fraction of the the total bill.

We on the other hand most certainly did need a bailout from the rest of the Eurozone because our budget math hasn't added up since roughly Summer '07 - a full year and a quarter before the whole banking guarantee was given.

Hijpo

View wrote: »

So that's a "No, I don't have a solution to our current problem, taken from Iceland or anywhere else, that will eliminate the need for austere measures", is it?

There have been a number of suggestions made for raising extra income for the country without the need to make living extremely difficult and uncomfortable for alot of peope in this country. But the pros just wont have any of it, i presume its because it will effect them more than the people that are already struggeling, we cant have that now can we.

I am all for these points that happend in icelands revolution:
1. resignation of the entire corrupt government of the country
2. referendum enabling the people to determine their own economic system
3. incarceration of responsible parties, and
4. a rewriting of the Iceland Constitution by its people
5. nationalization of the bank
To many dodgy dealings being done by members of the Dail with banks, developers and civil servants. They are all afraid to piss the other one off because of the secrets they might let slip.

Clear the whole lot out, without the massive pay offs and pensions. A modest pension will do them without the allowances and expenses they can keep when they retire. The negative equity home owner with 3 kids and a 39 hour a week job has to manage with it, they can to.
The entire country needs to be taken down a peg or two, most are already on the bottom rung with nowhere else to go.

lugha

Hijpo wrote: »

There have been a number of suggestions made for raising extra income for the country without the need to make living extremely difficult and uncomfortable for alot of peope in this country.

No there have not.

There have been some suggestions made that may be sensible, there have been some suggestions made that are completely daft (abolish all quangos!)

But even if you take every suggestion made here, daft ones included, you will still come up a long way short. Once again, the "no" side here completely fail to appreciate the magnitude of the problem we have.

So unfortunately, there will be a need to make living extremely difficult and uncomfortable for a lot of people in this country.

Ghandee

View wrote: »

You might want to take a look at the Central Bank's figures on that.

Their figures in "Table A.4.2 - Liabilities" show that in September '08 - just before the bank guarantee - the breakdown of Debt Securities (mainly Bonds) issued by our credit institutions as being:

• Irish Resident - 23.5 Billion
• Eurozone - 14.3 Billion
• Rest of World - 59.2 Billion

In other words, Germany didn't leave Ireland to bail them out since their exposure to the mess we were in was a minor fraction of the the total bill.

We on the other hand most certainly did need a bailout from the rest of the Eurozone because our budget math hasn't added up since roughly Summer '07 - a full year and a quarter before the whole banking guarantee was given.

What have the politicians, bankers, etc given up?

For Christs sake, D.E just 'awarded' themselves an extra four million of tax payers money to be paid to themselves next year (and an extra week off), weeks before they inflict 3.5 billion in cuts to the rest of us, paying their goddam wages!

Then we have bankers, almost 100% responsible for the crisis (govt had a helping hand) who, after receiving tax payers money to bail them out:

Hike up mortgage rates
Break pay caps
Award themselves half a million euro salaries.

The countries rotten to the core, and of you're on here defending it, I can only assume you're stupid, one of them, or in some other way 'worried about' your own salary/pension, that any incoming govt/changes will threaten. (selfish)

We're only 'pissing in the one pot' when it comes to debt sharing in this country, likewise austerity measures.

The sooner we do an 'Iceland' an start again, from bottom up, will any meaningful change happen in this corrupt island.

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

No there have not.

There have been some suggestions made that may be sensible, there have been some suggestions made that are completely daft (abolish all quangos!)

But even if you take every suggestion made here, daft ones included, you will still come up a long way short. Once again, the "no" side here completely fail to appreciate the magnitude of the problem we have.

So unfortunately, there will be a need to make living extremely difficult and uncomfortable for a lot of people in this country.

too late, the rest of us are already there...

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

No there have not.

There have been some suggestions made that may be sensible, there have been some suggestions made that are completely daft (abolish all quangos!)

But even if you take every suggestion made here, daft ones included, you will still come up a long way short. Once again, the "no" side here completely fail to appreciate the magnitude of the problem we have.

So unfortunately, there will be a need to make living extremely difficult and uncomfortable for a lot of people in this country.

And if all suggestions where accepted and most implemented then the we the people would see that
1. The problem has to be dealt with extremely
2. It the being harboured by everybody
3. The working homeowner isnt being singled out
4. There is some kind of decent reform to public spending
5. Austerity measures might not need to be so extreme for the middle to low earners. Even if its only a little bit, atleast if the burden is shared amongst everyone i would know that we are not the only ones being charged for the entire bill.

The list goes on and on of what could be achieved by doing this the right way.
from what im seeing going on with the governments implementations is:
Lets tax the **** out of the middle and lower earners, cut essential public services to them aswell and see how we get on. Keep our pensions and salaries high and leave the allowances and benefits alone, that way if it doesnt work and the country gets worse well be grand because our pensions are huge and even if they cut the pensions sure well have loads in the bank from our salaries seen as we didnt have to spend much of them because our allowances and benefits coverd the majority of big expenses.

View

Hijpo wrote: »

There have been a number of suggestions made for raising extra income for the country without the need to make living extremely difficult and uncomfortable for alot of peope in this country. But the pros just wont have any of it, i presume its because it will effect them more than the people that are already struggeling, we cant have that now can we.

I am all for these points that happend in icelands revolution:
1. resignation of the entire corrupt government of the country
2. referendum enabling the people to determine their own economic system
3. incarceration of responsible parties, and
4. a rewriting of the Iceland Constitution by its people
5. nationalization of the bank
To many dodgy dealings being done by members of the Dail with banks, developers and civil servants. They are all afraid to piss the other one off because of the secrets they might let slip.

Clear the whole lot out, without the massive pay offs and pensions. A modest pension will do them without the allowances and expenses they can keep when they retire. The negative equity home owner with 3 kids and a 39 hour a week job has to manage with it, they can to.
The entire country needs to be taken down a peg or two, most are already on the bottom rung with nowhere else to go.

That all sounds good but it scarcely alters the budget math we face, does it?

Iceland's budget was basically balanced when they went into their crisis. Ours was not and is not. You might as well compare our budgetary situation to that of Saudi Arabia for all the similarity our's has with Iceland's.

Hijpo

View wrote: »

That all sounds good but it scarcely alters the budget math we face, does it?

Iceland's budget was basically balanced when they went into their crisis. Ours was not and is not. You might as well compare our budgetary situation to that of Saudi Arabia for all the similarity our's has with Iceland's.

1. getting gangsters and there dodgy deals and back scratching out
2. getting rid of all the hidden expenses and top ups all the grey areas in the public sector spending
3. Dealing with the people who put this country in the state its in
4. Letting the people have a referendum on there own economic system
5. Even bringing in an independant body from iceland OR norway (or some country where the people are put first instead of stoke politics and individual agendas) to alter our economic system would do


That should put us on the path to balancing our budget. See what we can save by cutting non essentials first and make up the shortfall in taxes or whatever. Doing it the way the government is doing it is funding a broken system, even the pros accept that its broken. Its like running the tap continuously into a bath with no plug because you want to have a bath.
Madness

View

Ghandee wrote: »

What have the politicians, bankers, etc given up?

For Christs sake, D.E just 'awarded' themselves an extra four million of tax payers money to be paid to themselves next year (and an extra week off), weeks before they inflict 3.5 billion in cuts to the rest of us, paying their goddam wages!

Then we have bankers, almost 100% responsible for the crisis (govt had a helping hand) who, after receiving tax payers money to bail them out:

Hike up mortgage rates
Break pay caps
Award themselves half a million euro salaries.

The countries rotten to the core, and of you're on here defending it, I can only assume you're stupid, one of them, or in some other way 'worried about' your own salary/pension, that any incoming govt/changes will threaten. (selfish)

We're only 'pissing in the one pot' when it comes to debt sharing in this country, likewise austerity measures.

The sooner we do an 'Iceland' an start again, from bottom up, will any meaningful change happen in this corrupt island.

Personal attacks are a poor substitute for reasoned argument.

You are welcome to point out the error in the Central Banks's figures that I posted - if you can. If not, what will you do? Ignore them because reality doesn't conform to your theory?

Chips Lovell

emo72 wrote: »

also when Iceland was being portrayed as a basket case it was in the news non-stop. now that they are getting themselves back together, not a whimper.

wall to wall media blitz.........then.........not a whisper. why?

Indeed, I haven't heard a thing in the Irish media about Iceland's recovery. Must be a conspiracy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0820/1224322498419.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0702/1224319179077.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1211/1224285281256.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1210/1224285184975.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1208/1224285027449.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1207/breaking29.html
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/thomas-molloy-iceland-offers-a-fascinating-riposte-to-bailout-defenders-3201606.html
http://www.independent.ie/business/world/icelanders-shun-financial-wizardry-and-return-to-what-they-do-best-3097593.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/iceland-shows-the-way-on-bailout-recovery-204080.html

What that has to do with an Irish property tax, I'm not sure. Unless you're arguing for the introduction of Icelandic style taxation?

Hijpo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Indeed, I haven't heard a thing in the Irish media about Iceland's recovery. Must be a conspiracy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0820/1224322498419.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0702/1224319179077.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1211/1224285281256.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1210/1224285184975.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1208/1224285027449.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1207/breaking29.html
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/thomas-molloy-iceland-offers-a-fascinating-riposte-to-bailout-defenders-3201606.html
http://www.independent.ie/business/world/icelanders-shun-financial-wizardry-and-return-to-what-they-do-best-3097593.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/iceland-shows-the-way-on-bailout-recovery-204080.html

What that has to do with an Irish property tax, I'm not sure. Unless you're arguing for the introduction of Icelandic style taxation?

So far all they are talking about is taxing houses and water and more than likely raising income tax. On the back of slashing services that the people recieve and most depend on. If these measures dont bridge the gap what do they do then? how confident are they that this gap can be closed?
how much of an increase in taxes will be needed to bridge the gap, how high will property tax need to go and how expensive does water have to be to bridge the gap??

Chips Lovell

Well if you look to Iceland, they have higher income tax than us, plus local authority rates of 14% of your income, a property tax, water charges and domestic waste charges.

Hijpo

Are the people of iceland happy that they are not getting screwed over by gamblers, liars and scammers?
Are the people of iceland benefiting from the taxes paid by them?
Are the people of iceland confident that the people that ruined there country are getting what they deserved instead of a big pay off and bloated pension?
Are the people of iceland in control of there country and not just there to be milked dry by the fat cats looking out for themselfs?

Get a clue of what life is about will you.

Ghandee

View wrote: »

Personal attacks are a poor substitute for reasoned argument.

You are welcome to point out the error in the Central Banks's figures that I posted - if you can. If not, what will you do? Ignore them because reality doesn't conform to your theory?

Didn't even look at the cb's figures.

I pointed out that the ordinary home owner, middle-low earning tax payer are continuously being screwed to 'bridge this deficit' while our politicians and bankers fatten themselves with pay rises, pensions etc.

You did not/have not addressed this problem though.

DJpaudie

laughing at the radio yesterday... people getting letters to pay household charge with dead relatives addresses on the envelope! guess if college dont work out i can always work for the council!!!!