Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Hijpo

gerryo777 wrote: »

Thank's H, it's a bit quiet around here lately, hasn't it?
I wonder is the penny starting to drop with our pro-tax buddies?

Nah they are a lost cause, the only thing they bring to the table is yarns from the paper that a politician has already spun trying to defend themselfs. Seen as a politician hasnt been able to defend themselfs much these days the pro side has nothing to copy.
The only ones left now are doesnotcompute who never really makes any points, just instantly thanks anything lugha or dv posts and then you have donal....

gerryo777

darkhorse wrote: »

They have a group, K-9, they are called the corrupt.:D

Sorry DH, had to fix that for you.
Elite can sometimes imply something positive....

gerryo777

Hijpo wrote: »

Nah they are a lost cause, the only thing they bring to the table is yarns from the paper that a politician has already spun trying to defend themselfs. Seen as a politician hasnt been able to defend themselfs much these days the pro side has nothing to copy.
The only ones left now are doesnotcompute who never really makes any points, just instantly thanks anything lugha or dv posts and then you have donal....

It's a sad state of affairs alright...

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

You say that up there ^^


Then continue to blather on about him here.

Yes, I am highlighting out the inconsistency in arguing that you are justified in breaking a law you think is unfair but condemn Sean Quinn for dong the very same. What is your point?

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm not getting paid several hundred thousand euro to do an inept politicians job for him.

So that would be no. You don’t have any idea as to how austerity might be avoided. :eek: Well kudos for honesty at least. Truth is, the half-wits behind next Saturday’s piss-up campaign against austerity don’t either IMO. :pac:

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

Nah they are a lost cause, the only thing they bring to the table is yarns from the paper that a politician has already spun trying to defend themselfs. Seen as a politician hasnt been able to defend themselfs much these days the pro side has nothing to copy.
The only ones left now are doesnotcompute who never really makes any points, just instantly thanks anything lugha or dv posts and then you have donal....

Care to elaborate on that one hijpo or you just trolling again.

Seems to me the anti side bring nothing to the debate other than nonsense and when you ask them for alternatives to austerity they say they don't get paid enough to make those decisions. Tbh they all just seem to want to stick their heads in the sand and not actually add anything to the debate at all.

I mean the anti side go from one crazy claim to another and constantly move the goalposts to suit their arguments and stop themselves looking silly.

gerryo777

donalg1 wrote: »

Care to elaborate on that one hijpo or you just trolling again.

Seems to me the anti side bring nothing to the debate other than nonsense and when you ask them for alternatives to austerity they say they don't get paid enough to make those decisions. Tbh they all just seem to want to stick their heads in the sand and not actually add anything to the debate at all.

I mean the anti side go from one crazy claim to another and constantly move the goalposts to suit their arguments and stop themselves looking silly.

That's because there may be more than one reason to oppose a tax on the family home Donal. Did you ever think of that?
It's never as simple as black and white, you know!

donalg1

lugha wrote: »

Yes, I am highlighting out the inconsistency in arguing that you are justified in breaking a law you think is unfair but condemn Sean Quinn for dong the very same. What is your point?

So that would be no. You don’t have any idea as to how austerity might be avoided. :eek: Well kudos for honesty at least. Truth is, the half-wits behind next Saturday’s piss-up campaign against austerity don’t either IMO. :pac:

Well its no surprise another question goes unanswered by the anti side just a lot of hot air without any actual input at least they are consistent on something anyway.

darkhorse

K-9 wrote: »

Be honest, if it wasn't bankers pensions, you'd just point to some other Government waste and be suitably outraged.

Well, K-9, if it was'nt there to point to(so easily, may I add, cause there is so much waste), there would be nothing to be outraged about=honesty, not too much to ask, would you agree.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Care to elaborate on that one hijpo or you just trolling again.

Seems to me the anti side bring nothing to the debate other than nonsense and when you ask them for alternatives to austerity they say they don't get paid enough to make those decisions. Tbh they all just seem to want to stick their heads in the sand and not actually add anything to the debate at all.

I mean the anti side go from one crazy claim to another and constantly move the goalposts to suit their arguments and stop themselves looking silly.

I dont think it needs to be elaborated on, i was saying whos left trying to defend us paying more taxes while a government gravey train is chugging full steam ahead.

My reasons seemed to qualify for you when you asked, you liked the post and didnt oppose any of them.

gerryo777

lugha wrote: »

Yes, I am highlighting out the inconsistency in arguing that you are justified in breaking a law you think is unfair but condemn Sean Quinn for dong the very same. What is your point?

Sean Quinn not only broke the law, he also defied a high court order.
This was to do with him trying to put assets beyond the reach of IBRC.
He still owes us, the Irish people, €2.8 billion.

Slight difference to not paying a registration charge of €100 so the junta can raid your bank account for an undisclosed sum, don't you think?

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

Yes, I am highlighting out the inconsistency in arguing that you are justified in breaking a law you think is unfair but condemn Sean Quinn for dong the very same. What is your point?

Now, hang on a minute.
I don't agree with how Sean Quinn swindled his own companies of money that they never actually had, then went on to engage in dodgy dealings with Anglo, and when things went sour, he put his assets beyond reach, from the govt (that'd be tax payers) and also left us to pay a Levy on insurance to cover his gambling.

Then scenario two, I don't support the hhc because I feel the money will be diverted (or the previous lgma budget has been diverted) in order to pay back the bankers and bondholders who gambled and lost.

I don't support Sean Quinn for robbing the government and his own companies
I don't support the govt trying to rob its citizens.

Where is the inconsistency

lugha wrote: »

So that would be no. You don’t have any idea as to how austerity might be avoided. :eek: Well kudos for honesty at least. Truth is, the half-wits behind next Saturday’s piss-up campaign against austerity don’t either IMO. :pac:

I gave plenty of alternative revenue raising methods before which you dismissed (lughas law again)

Go back through this thread, second thread and first thread and you'll find them.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

I dont think it needs to be elaborated on, i was saying whos left trying to defend us paying more taxes while a government gravey train is chugging full steam ahead.

My reasons seemed to qualify for you when you asked, you liked the post and didnt oppose any of them.

I think you do need to elaborate on the part about me thanks.

I thanked it because you at least made an effort to answer a question and made some decent points without ant of the usual nonsense. Like the remarks that need elaboration.

Ghandee

I see father stack has been 'careless' with his financial affairs again.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/department-of-health-to-get-bailout-as-hse-deficit-heads-towards-400m-3301919.html

Department of Health to get bailout as HSE deficit heads towards €400m

THE Department of Health is to receive an emergency bailout as the Government scrambles to tackle overspending by minister Dr James Reilly.

Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin has confirmed he will meet with Dr Reilly this evening. It comes as the HSE heads towards a deficit of €400m by the end of the year - there are no details yet as to how big the bailout will be. But Mr Howlin said it will be “a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction” of the annual €13.5bn budget for health.

The supplementary budget will be separate to any new measures announced in December. “I can confirm it is likely there will be a supplementary budget for health,” Mr Howlin told the Dail this afternoon. “I’m actually having a bilateral meeting with the Minister for Health after this session.”

Tiny, tiny, tiny fraction?

Its more than 3 x times the amount they hoped to collect from the hhc lol.

Does that mean the hhc is only a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, amount then? :pac:

darkhorse

K-9 wrote: »

It pays for bankers pensions as much as it pays for a childs operation in Crumlin, roadworks, garda overtime, quangos, your child going to school, it goes into the general taxation pool in a roundabout way.

From everything that I read, it actually pays more for bankers pensions.

Number on hospital waiting lists up 20,000 - The Irish Times - Wed ...

By the way, you wont read about bankers waiting this long for their salary and perks.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

I think you do need to elaborate on the part about me thanks.

I thanked it because you at least made an effort to answer a question and made some decent points without ant of the usual nonsense. Like the remarks that need elaboration.

I just said the only ones left are doesnotcompute who does nothing but like pro posts and you. Like i said i dont think it needs elaboration

gerryo777

At the start, the pro-taxers were stating categorically that the HHC was to be used for LA services.
Then, that changed to, it all goes to central funds and hogan will decide how it's
spent.
Now it's almost universally accepted that all tax income goes to the one pot and divvied out to the various departments as well as paying our debts.
Even Noonan can't say that taxpayers money doesn't go directly to bankers pay/pensions and bonuses.

So, now you pro-taxers have been shown that your money is being given to bankers and that LA funding will be cut again, I hope that you all are very happy with the stance you've taken.

Take another bow lads, and while your down there get the ky jelly out!

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

I don't support Sean Quinn for robbing the government and his own companies
I don't support the govt trying to rob its citizens.

Where is the inconsistency

But it doesn’t matter if you support Sean Quinn or not. Sean Quinn thinks he is being treated unfairly and according to the paradigm been advanced by the no side here, it is just to break a law that you, (not anybody else) think unfair. You are trying to have it both ways. SQ must abide by the law, even if he feels it is unfair but that rule doesn’t apply to you.

Ghandee wrote: »

I gave plenty of alternative revenue raising methods before

You suggested measures as alternatives to the HHC / property tax. You did not propose alternatives that would collectively avoid the need for austerity (i.e. higher taxes, spending cuts or both). And you didn’t and won’t because it can’t be done.

So the question remains, what is the point in campaigning against austerity if you can’t propose an alternative?

darkhorse

Ghandee wrote: »

Noonan claims he can't touch the pensions......
Why FG continue to sit on their hands and not curtail the wastage at the banks, (like they promised pre-election is beyond me.

Ironically enough, G, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy on a public service pension, which has seen a fixed monthly reduction from Jan. 2011. It would raise the question, are people who are on pensions from state owned banks subject to a reduction.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Protesting against austerity is not against the law. It is about as silly as protesting against the bad weather IMO.

We are all entitled to our opinion. My opinion, which is the same opinion I've always had is that austerity does not work. In fact, you dont have to be an economist to see that austerity is anti-growth.

This guy explains it better.


Column: 4 myths about austerity… busted · TheJournal.ie

I hope the link works, as I am not very lucky with links, actually I'm not very lucky. (To be honest, I'm that unlucky that if I won a cruise, I'm sure I would be cruising with the onedin line)

gerryo777

lugha wrote: »

You suggested measures as alternatives to the HHC / property tax. You did not propose alternatives that would collectively avoid the need for austerity (i.e. higher taxes, spending cuts or both). And you didn’t and won’t because it can’t be done.

So the question remains, what is the point in campaigning against austerity if you can’t propose an alternative?

We go back to the troika and we tell them that is is impossible, with no growth in our domestic economy, to reach the impossible targets regarding the 3% of GDP they have required of us.
We tell them that we have to invest in our country, to stimulate the economy.
We tell them that there is no point in flogging the horse to death.

I'll ask you again lugha, where do you think the last 4 years of austerity have got us? Are we in a better place? Are things improving?
Unless you work in the PS, unless your a TD or a cronie, unless your a banker, the resounding answer is no.

We seem to be a country that is taking some perverted pleasure in self flagellation.

gerryo777

lugha wrote: »

But it doesn’t matter if you support Sean Quinn or not. Sean Quinn thinks he is being treated unfairly and according to the paradigm been advanced by the no side here, it is just to break a law that you, (not anybody else) think unfair. You are trying to have it both ways. SQ must abide by the law, even if he feels it is unfair but that rule doesn’t apply to you.


You suggested measures as alternatives to the HHC / property tax. You did not propose alternatives that would collectively avoid the need for austerity (i.e. higher taxes, spending cuts or both). And you didn’t and won’t because it can’t be done.

So the question remains, what is the point in campaigning against austerity if you can’t propose an alternative?

You can only campaign for austerity because you can't propose any other alternative.

gerryo777

darkhorse wrote: »

Ironically enough, G, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy on a public service pension, which has seen a fixed monthly reduction from Jan. 2011. It would raise the question, are people who are on pensions from state owned banks subject to a reduction.

I'm sure you'll find that bankers pensions are subject to a 'contract' and won't be touched.
Of course Noonan could tax bankers pensions at 99% to get around that but I won't hold my breath. Much easier to attack the middle classes.

lugha

darkhorse wrote: »

We are all entitled to our opinion. My opinion, which is the same opinion I've always had is that austerity does not work.

Ok. So no more austerity. No more taxes and no more spending cuts.
Which means we need about €13,000,000,000 a year every year just to keep going.

Simple question. Who is going to lend us that money?

Reloc8

Why does anyone think not paying the HHC will actually change anything ?

That's your protest ?

Yikes. The establishment must be quaking in their boots.

(for the record, I paid it. I'm lucky enough that I could afford it, and its the law, so there you go).

gerryo777

Reloc8 wrote: »

Why does anyone think not paying the HHC will actually change anything ?

That's your protest ?

Yikes. The establishment must be quaking in their boots.

(for the record, I paid it. I could afford it, and its the law, so there you go).

Do you think then that paying the HHC will change anything?
Apart from creating another divide between people (renters and owners)?
The protest hasn't even started yet, we're just putting down a marker.

Slick50

lugha wrote: »

But it doesn’t matter if you support Sean Quinn or not. Sean Quinn thinks he is being treated unfairly and according to the paradigm been advanced by the no side here, it is just to break a law that you, (not anybody else) think unfair. You are trying to have it both ways. SQ must abide by the law, even if he feels it is unfair but that rule doesn’t apply to you.

There is one glaringly obvious difference, SQ is being asked to repay monies that he borowed. He entered into a contract to do so. I for one did not.

lugha wrote: »

You suggested measures as alternatives to the HHC / property tax.

That is what this thread is about.

lugha wrote: »

You did not propose alternatives that would collectively avoid the need for austerity (i.e. higher taxes, spending cuts or both). And you didn’t and won’t because it can’t be done.

So the question remains, what is the point in campaigning against austerity if you can’t propose an alternative?

The protest is against the way austerity is being unfairly imposed.

gerryo777

lugha wrote: »

Ok. So no more austerity. No more taxes and no more spending cuts.
Which means we need about €13,000,000,000 a year every year just to keep going.

Simple question. Who is going to lend us that money?

Aren't we back to the markets at 4.6%?
If there's no growth for the next 10 years, what happens?
If we completely destroy the domestic economy, what happens then?
Should everyone just emigrate, except for the PS staff and the government?

What we are doing now, quite simply, isn't working.
Another way will have to be found.

K-9

darkhorse wrote: »

Why do ya say that. It seems to me that if we dont answer a post, there is someone complaining, then if we do answer a post, we are spinning.

Saying this tax is going to pay bankers pay and pensions is great spin. It isn't a criticism at all.

darkhorse wrote: »

How can you possibly equate into logic the fact that there can be any cuts to the health service and education(cause its no point in bringing up hospitals and schools, without mentioning cuts), while at the same time some bank pers. and some bank pensioners(from banks that we apparently own) are paid what most ordinary people would perceive to be akin to lottery payouts. No spin, just truth.

Even the Government thinks they are over paid, FF thought they were over paid. Money went into the banks, bankers get paid huge money, I don't see what it really has to do with the Household charge, sure your VAT, Income tax, USC and PRSI goes towards bankers pay as well.

darkhorse wrote:

Well, K-9, if it was'nt there to point to(so easily, may I add, cause there is so much waste), there would be nothing to be outraged about=honesty, not too much to ask, would you agree.

Well bankers pay is there for all to see, honestly doesn't really come into it, just extravagance and brazeness. There'll always some waste to point to, always, you could be just a whinger who'll always find some excuse to avoid paying this tax or moan about any increase in taxes, there is plenty of them about and always was plenty of them. They whinged a bit less when tax rates were cut and welfare and pay was going up.

gerryo777

K-9 wrote: »

Saying this tax is going to pay bankers pay and pensions is great spin. It isn't a criticism at all.

Noonan himself has said that taxpayers money is going to pay bankers.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Not paying the HHC charge is. But of course you knew full well that this is what Vizzy was referring to.

If you were following the posts in sequence, you would know that the line of posts that Vizzy was replying to actually started with post no. 1466, by Am Chile, and it was pertaining to the demonstration on the 24th November:

National Pre Budget Demonstration
Bocott Property Tax - Fight Austerity

in which Am Chile was giving details of the demonstration