Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

Chips Lovell

gerryo777 wrote: »

...the government will try the same and keep 40% to keep the PS gravy train, which you're on, trundling along...

Which I'm on? Am I reading that correctly

Ghandee wrote: »

Now, the latter to me, would be a true asset/wealth tax, as the developers are simply sitting on millions of euro worth of land, just awaiting things to improve so as they can build/flip it. And by collecting tax from land, and a property owner, you could reduce the burden on a home owner, while still collecting same (even more revenue)

I agree. I believe they should levy capital gains tax at a new, 80 per cent rate, on all windfall gains from the sale of rezoned land. It's something that was suggested by the aforementioned Commission on Taxation too.

The windfall gains arising from increases in land values due to rezoning decisions should be subject to an additional capital gains tax charge. This is often called ‘betterment’ or ‘value capture’ as the increase in property values as a consequence of: planning decisions made by local authorities, typically the rezoning of agricultural land for residential use; the provision of physical infrastructure by local authorities (and other agencies such as the Railway Procurement Agency and the National Roads Authority) and the provision of social infrastructure in an area

Le_Dieux

gerryo777 wrote: »

You answer a question. Where has austerity got us? See much improvement in our economy, do you?

Or put another way: Dublin Bus saw a drop off in their load factor - what did they do? UP the fares. To compensate for loss of earnings. Who thinks this up? One only has to ask WHY are there less bodies on a bus? Nah, not DB....

What's better? Run a bus from A to B half full or drop the price and ( hopefully, I admit ) fill it? Perish the thought. I mentioned before somewhere on Boards - back in the 80's Stockholm built a metro/tube ( whatever they call it there). They started running it, but the service was boycotted because the fares were too steep. What did they do? Cut the fares in half, and they ended up having to buy more carriages, the trains were so full.

Now I ask myself: WHY OH WHY can't people think along those lines in this Godforesaken country? We are a small nation, and these 'ministers' want to just pile misery on misery to satisfy the Troika. Of course they make SFA sacrifices themselves, nah, let the ordinary joe soap pay. Don't they realise that the more money they take out of the economy, the LESS people have to spend? And they haven't even tried to bring in the water tax yet.

I despair at where this country is going!!!

gerryo777

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Which I'm on? Am I reading that correctly

You are employed in the PS aren't you?

Have you noticed on this thread that the pro-taxers will never say what or where they work.
Us on the anti side are quite open about what we do for a living if asked.

I wonder why, vested interests again perhaps.

Chips Lovell

gerryo777 wrote: »

You are employed in the PS aren't you?

No. I work in the private sector.

gerryo777

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Or put another way: Dublin Bus saw a drop off in their load factor - what did they do? UP the fares. To compensate for loss of earnings. Who thinks this up? One only has to ask WHY are there less bodies on a bus? Nah, not DB....

What's better? Run a bus from A to B half full or drop the price and ( hopefully, I admit ) fill it? Perish the thought. I mentioned before somewhere on Boards - back in the 80's Stockholm built a metro/tube ( whatever they call it there). They started running it, but the service was boycotted because the fares were too steep. What did they do? Cut the fares in half, and they ended up having to buy more carriages, the trains were so full.

Now I ask myself: WHY OH WHY can't people think along those lines in this Godforesaken country? We are a small nation, and these 'ministers' want to just pile misery on misery to satisfy the Troika. Of course they make SFA sacrifices themselves, nah, let the ordinary joe soap pay. Don't they realise that the more money they take out of the economy, the LESS people have to spend? And they haven't even tried to bring in the water tax yet.

I despair at where this country is going!!!

It's an inability to think outside the box and to try something different.
We are seriously hampered in Ireland with our choice of politicians.
Decent people won't get into politics, the only type of people we get are the scummy types we see there every day.

gerryo777

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

No. I work in the private sector.

Sorry. I withdraw that so.

Cantona's Collars

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Or put another way: Dublin Bus saw a drop off in their load factor - what did they do? UP the fares. To compensate for loss of earnings. Who thinks this up? One only has to ask WHY are there less bodies on a bus? Nah, not DB....

What's better? Run a bus from A to B half full or drop the price and ( hopefully, I admit ) fill it? Perish the thought. I mentioned before somewhere on Boards - back in the 80's Stockholm built a metro/tube ( whatever they call it there). They started running it, but the service was boycotted because the fares were too steep. What did they do? Cut the fares in half, and they ended up having to buy more carriages, the trains were so full.

Now I ask myself: WHY OH WHY can't people think along those lines in this Godforesaken country? We are a small nation, and these 'ministers' want to just pile misery on misery to satisfy the Troika. Of course they make SFA sacrifices themselves, nah, let the ordinary joe soap pay. Don't they realise that the more money they take out of the economy, the LESS people have to spend? And they haven't even tried to bring in the water tax yet.

I despair at where this country is going!!!

In Ireland it's called the Vintner Phenomenon: Custom falls so hike prices,it's the Irish solution.Tried & trusted for the pub trade,we can all see how that's working.

BTW: Pre-Budget protest rally in Enniscorthy tomorrow at 10am & Wexford Town @ 2pm.

donalg1

Brilliant.

They should get experts to do a report on the best way to reform Ireland's fcuked up tax system.


That's a great idea.

Oh wait look they did get a report and the commission recommended the introduction of a property tax.


Actually I take it back its a crap idea they don't know what they are talking about.

Hilarious.

Le_Dieux

donalg1 wrote: »

You asked me to show you where it was said and I did or are you denying it was said by someone on the anti side.

Apologies for responding so late...had to work.

You generalised classifying ALL the NO brigade. I don't expect you to apologise - seems to be beyond your remit - but just please do NOT paint everyone with the same brush.

gerryo777

See the council boy is back from golf. LOL.

donalg1

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Apologies for responding so late...had to work.

You generalised classifying ALL the NO brigade. I don't expect you to apologise - seems to be beyond your remit - but just please do NOT paint everyone with the same brush.

I'm sorry for generalising you then I won't do it again. But you did say you don't remember anyone saying it and I showed you it was said. My phrasing originally may not have been the best but I just said the anti side say this and say that and used that one post as an example of the stuff they cone out with I will try not be so general in future.

donalg1

Excuse me Gerry council worker are you ghandee too

K-9

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Oh wait....


... they did. http://www.commissionontaxation.ie/Report.asp

The one from 10 or 12 years would make far more interesting reading.

gerryo777 wrote: »

There's probably not much point really, it's Ireland and it's another report, one of thousands. The government's mates sitting on land banks won't be touched.
Everyone can see the path this shower have taken, screw the middle classes to protect the 'top' and the 'bottom'. I don't need any reports to show me that.

The earlier ones recommended scrapping the First Time Buyers grant (which they did) and scrapping mortgage interest relief, which they doubled, tripled and God knows what else. In 08 a FTB could have had a €1 Million mortgage and got full interest relief on it, €20,000 a year from the tax payer.

They'd loads of other recommendations which all the parties ignored, SF and Labour, supposedly high tax parties included.

K-9

Ghandee wrote: »

Tell me this Vlad.

If, as we're constantly reminded, the countries stone broke, and badly (urgently) even in need of a stable, reliable, predictable revenue income, and if all the signs pointed that property was the way forward, why then leave potentially billions out by not making any such tax a site valued one?

Site valued property gives a potential double whammy, you get to tax the value of the house, and the site (plot of land) the house sits on.

If you simply own a plot of land, without a house on it, you're still liable for a tax.

Now, the latter to me, would be a true asset/wealth tax, as the developers are simply sitting on millions of euro worth of land, just awaiting things to improve so as they can build/flip it. And by collecting tax from land, and a property owner, you could reduce the burden on a home owner, while still collecting same (even more revenue)

Yet, they get away scott free.

Something fishy about that, no?

I thought that was one of the plans discussed.

Wish they'd stop discussing it and just get on with it, they make FF and the Greens look decisive.

Chips Lovell

They actually have introduced a tax on developers:

The National Assets Management Agency Act introduced a “windfall gains tax” in certain capital gains. This tax is charged at a rate of 80% in respect of a disposal of development land where both a rezoning and a disposal took place on or after 30 October 2009. Finance Act 2010 widened the scope of the provision by introducing a Relevant Planning Decision, which includes both a rezoning and a material contravention of a development plan. This change applies to decisions made on or after 4 February 2010.

gerryo777

donalg1 wrote: »

Excuse me Gerry council worker are you ghandee too

19th hole?

gerryo777

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

They actually have introduced a tax on developers:

That's on disposal of land, like there's a lot of that happening!
What about sitting on land banks until the good times roll for them again?
You would agree that land banks are assets, wouldn't you?

donalg1

You lost me Gerry

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why, if you think the government had a choice between upsetting a relatively small number of high earners and upsetting a much larger number of low to medium earners they would opt for the latter, given that their currency is votes?

Very aptly put, given that their currency is votes. So given that their currency is votes, it would have to be said that their false promises were the motives for the procurement of said currency. Make sense, if you are a politician.

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If it were a tax on homes, then people in rented accommodation and local authority housing would be liable as well.

Why, then, are they not liable.

gerryo777

donalg1 wrote: »

You lost me Gerry

A long time ago Donal, unfortunately.:( We could always do with someone as passionate as you are about a cause on our side. Pity.

gerryo777

darkhorse wrote: »

Why, then, are they not liable.

Because then they would be pissing off even more of the electorate.
More games, divide and conquer!

Le_Dieux

BEST of luck to everyone today for the march.

How I wish I could be there!

lugha

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Or put another way: Dublin Bus saw a drop off in their load factor - what did they do? UP the fares. To compensate for loss of earnings. Who thinks this up? One only has to ask WHY are there less bodies on a bus? Nah, not DB....

What's better? Run a bus from A to B half full or drop the price and ( hopefully, I admit ) fill it? Perish the thought. I mentioned before somewhere on Boards - back in the 80's Stockholm built a metro/tube ( whatever they call it there). They started running it, but the service was boycotted because the fares were too steep. What did they do? Cut the fares in half, and they ended up having to buy more carriages, the trains were so full.

Now I ask myself: WHY OH WHY can't people think along those lines in this Godforesaken country? We are a small nation, and these 'ministers' want to just pile misery on misery to satisfy the Troika. Of course they make SFA sacrifices themselves, nah, let the ordinary joe soap pay. Don't they realise that the more money they take out of the economy, the LESS people have to spend? And they haven't even tried to bring in the water tax yet.

I despair at where this country is going!!!

So we all agree that austerity is not working and maintain a deficit at 13 billion until things pick up a bit. All we have to do is find a lender who is prepared to throw money away lend to those who insist on spending more than they earn.

I have a nagging notion in my head that there is a small flaw in that plan somewhere.

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

So we all agree that austerity is not working and maintain a deficit at 13 billion until things pick up a bit. All we have to do is find a lender who is prepared to throw money away lend to those who insist on spending more than they earn.

I have a nagging notion in my head that there is a small flaw in that plan somewhere.

What are you saying Lugha? Let the bus run around half full ( bus takes 80 passengers, €1 per trip) IE €40 or drop the price of a fare 25% and take in €60???

lugha

Le_Dieux wrote: »

What are you saying Lugha? Let the bus run around half full ( bus takes 80 passengers, €1 per trip) IE €40 or drop the price of a fare 25% and take in €60???

I am saying we do not have a choice between austerity and no austerity, unless there is someone who will lend us 13 billion a year without us implementing any reforms. Have you any ideas as to where we would get this money from?

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

I am saying we do not have a choice between austerity and no austerity, unless there is someone who will lend us 13 billion a year without us implementing any reforms. Have you any ideas as to where we would get this money from?

WHY so much emphasis on this €13.5b billion? There are Greeks, Portuguese, and Spaniards in FAR worse a scenario than we are, and they aren't as worried about kissing Frau Merkels árse as we are.

Take your time replying Lugha, I am going out. Have to attend a Christmas Fair in Dublin 14, but am planning on doing a bunk ( while the OH makes the bread selling goodies:rolleyes: ) and I catch a #11 to get to Parnell Square...hopefully.

lugha

Le_Dieux wrote: »

WHY so much emphasis on this €13.5b billion?

Are you serious? :eek:

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Have to attend a Christmas Fair in Dublin 14, but am planning on doing a bunk ( while the OH makes the bread selling goodies:rolleyes: ) and I catch a #11 to get to Parnell Square...hopefully.

When you are there you might ask a few of the lads if anyone has an ideas as to how this “no austerity” thing is going to work. And how are we going to plug this 13 billion hole (which you seem to think is a trifling detail!)?

For all the protesting and ranting and raving and going to the edge that other Europeans, the Greeks in particular did, in the end they went away with their tails between their legs (as you lads will do today!). Unless of course any of you have a plan, that doesn’t have a flaw the size of Offaly in it? :pac:

gerryo777

lugha wrote: »

I am saying we do not have a choice between austerity and no austerity, unless there is someone who will lend us 13 billion a year without us implementing any reforms. Have you any ideas as to where we would get this money from?

Until we get our domestic economy growing, we are always going to need €13 billion or something like it.
So the best thing to do is slash and burn more and more and destroy what's left of our domestic economy.
Genius thinking by clueless people.

lugha

gerryo777 wrote: »

Until we get our domestic economy growing, we are always going to need €13 billion or something like it.
So the best thing to do is slash and burn more and more and destroy what's left of our domestic economy.
Genius thinking by clueless people.

Go on Gerry, you have an ‘aul go at answering the question. The rest of the lads have come up with squat so far.

Our lenders give us they money they do on the condition that we implement austere measures. If we decide (even if we are right) to renege on these conditions, we need to find a new lender.

Who is that going to be?