Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You may think it is foolish to toe the line and obey the law but for the sake of €100 I think it is foolish not to.

Maybe nobody mentioned it to you, dx, but the €100 was just an incentive to allow us to register our place of abode. I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but

---

Ah, I hav'nt the bleedin heart to tell him, someone else tell him.

Slick50

lugha wrote: »

And of course, they may like me, have calculated that reforming the pay of a small number at the top was only going to have a symbolic rather than meaningful impact on any reform programme.

Every little helps!, and as it's only symbolic they wouldn't even notice.

lugha wrote: »

If people with a vested interest are likely to massage the figures as the media have apparently (don't worry, I'm not going to ask you to back that claim up! ) then shouldn't the same reasoning apply when ye lads tell us what the figures were? :pac:

So, by how much are ye over-egging the pudding?

Figures from gardai on the ground yesterday put the attendance at 18,000... untill word came down from above ( and I don't mean the chopper) that it was "10,000".

Le_Dieux

And PLEASE answer

The bus conundrum I asked on Friday - You still have been talking on and on about a lot of things, but You still haven't answered what I asked about the logic of upping fare to half fill a bus.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

He/she seems to think there is a lot of stupidity out there and that the wider populace does not have access to the knowledge that is in their posession.

Just when you mention this, would you not think that it is our government that seems to think there is a lot of stupidity out there among the people. And if our government respected us, the citizens(I think it is worth remembering that they work for us), can you explain to me why the following is withheld from us, the people who are paying these guys wages:

This is the ‘big one’ – the letter where Trichet is said to have threatened to pull ECB funding from Irish banks if Ireland did not enter a bailout. Unfortunately, it’s also the one guarded with the most secrecy.

I also want to ask you, dx, if you withheld information from an employer, that was relevant to the employers business, would the employer have the right to sack you?

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

Maybe nobody mentioned it to you, dx, but the €100 was just an incentive to allow us to register our place of abode. I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but

---

Ah, I hav'nt the bleedin heart to tell him, someone else tell him.

Not everyone is required to register, only property owners. I just thought I should break that to you in case you do not own your place of abode.

https://www.householdcharge.ie/Faq.aspx#fk1

The Household Charge is an annual charge introduced by the Local Government Household Charge Legislation which is payable by owners of residential property. It is a matter for owners of residential property to register and pay the household charge after the 1st of January.

gerryo777

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Not everyone is required to register, only property owners. I just thought I should break that to you in case you do not own your place of abode.

https://www.householdcharge.ie/Faq.aspx#fk1

The Household Charge is an annual charge introduced by the Local Government Household Charge Legislation which is payable by owners of residential property. It is a matter for owners of residential property to register and pay the household charge after the 1st of January.

How's that going for them? Over 600,000 won't register.

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

1.So, does that mean then that the people at the top should not have their salaries cut(its like you are constantly trying to make a case that they should not).
2.Well, I think it should matter, as, we the collective people of Europe, are paying these peoples salaries.
3.I think we, as a nation, we are beyond serenity prayers, but if you feel that strongly about it, here's a place that you can send your prayers:

Dublin Soup Kitchen Serves `New Poor' as Austerity Bites - YouTube


4.So what is the upside to austerity.
5.I certainly would not pretend it to be a no brainer, just passing on my, and I'm sure a lot of peoples sentiment that there should be growth advocated before austerity.

One upside of austerity is that some Irish people can afford to spend much more than other Europeans at Christmas. Which is a good thing in my opinion as the amount of money put away in savings and never spent is very high here.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025162.shtml

The survey, which was carried out in the second and third week in September, predicts that the average spend per household in Ireland will be €965.80, with an average of €499.60 spent on gifts, €288.30 spent on food and drink and €177.90 spent on socialising. The average figure in Europe overall is €590.90.


Another upside is that some Irish people can afford to throw away vast amounts of food.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/think-before-you-shop-the-message-as-1000--213311.html

Households are dumping up to €1,000 worth of food each year with families being urged to be less wasteful.

The most common foods binned are bread, apples, potatoes, salads, meat and fish, yoghurt and milk, and spreads and dips.

dxhound2005

gerryo777 wrote: »

How's that going for them? Over 600,000 won't register.

They may be happy enough that everyone registering now is putting an extra €27 into the coffers compared to what I paid. And our friends in the legal profession will pick up some nice money in future sorting out the legalities.

http://www.ohod.ie/index.php/property-conveyancing/property-law-news/104-pay-the-household-charge-or

Death and taxes

The Act provides that should a householder die with an outstanding Household Charge, the personal representatives shall pay it within three months of the grant of representation issuing. The interest and charges will be paused for three months after the grant, but after that the estate will have to bear the cost of additional late payment fees.


Burden on the Property

Again the Goverment has provided an elegant if infuriating way of ensuring the Household Charge is collected. The amount owing, complete with late payment fees and interest will be a burden on the property for a period of 12 years from the date it first became due and owing. So it becomes in essence a charge on your property, and will need to be removed come time to sell or remortgage with a Bank.

This is reinforced by section 10 which provides that before the completion of any sale all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest shall be paid. Failure to do this is a criminal offence and not only can the vendor be liable, but also the vendor’s Solicitor

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The Household Charge is an annual charge which is payable by owners of residential property. It is a matter for owners of residential property to register and pay the household charge after the 1st of January.

So I believe.

dvpower

I see there is a government plan to deduct property tax from source from social welfare payments. Pretty serious development if it goes ahead.
If people on the dole can't escape the tax I can't see much public support for working tax evaders remaining.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1125/property-tax-social-revenue.html

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One upside of austerity is that some Irish people can afford to spend much more than other Europeans at Christmas.

Thanks. I'll pass that on, there's probably a lot of people out there that dont know just how well off they are.

lugha

darkhorse wrote: »

1. So, does that mean then that the people at the top should not have their salaries cut(its like you are constantly trying to make a case that they should not).

No I am not saying that. I am saying such a measure will make close to no difference. Some seem to think that such a move will have a meaningful impact on solving our problems. It won’t. There are reasons to adjust the excessive remuneration of the political elite. That it would have an impact in terms of solving our problems is not one of them.

darkhorse wrote: »

2.Well, I think it should matter, as, we the collective people of Europe, are paying these peoples salaries.

You might want to go back and check why I say it doesn’t matter.

darkhorse wrote: »

3.I think we, as a nation, we are beyond serenity prayers

I agree. I prefer to contemplate options that are available to us. Prayer, if that is you thing, is appropriate for ones that are not. I am trying (and failing) to get some of the no side to appreciate the difference between the two.

(I notice an ad is popping up on boards as I type, encouraging us to pray to St Jude. Lost causes isn’t it?)

darkhorse wrote: »

4.So what is the upside to austerity.

One obvious “up” is that our deficit is now 13 billion and not 20 billion. And many on the no side fully appreciate this as they insist on using the better figure when if we were to follow there “no austerity” plan it would be the worse one.

darkhorse wrote: »

5.I certainly would not pretend it to be a no brainer, just passing on my, and I'm sure a lot of peoples sentiment that there should be growth advocated before austerity.

Well all you have to do is find someone who is prepared to lend to us if we refuse to reform boom level SW payment and PS salaries.

Le Dieux wrote: »

The bus conundrum I asked on Friday - You still have been talking on and on about a lot of things, but You still haven't answered what I asked about the logic of upping fare to half fill a bus.

I am not quite clear on what your question is. Perhaps, rather than talk about buses, you could tell me what your course of action would be for the Irish economy? And if it involves us borrowing money, while abandoning efforts to deal with our deficit, you will point out who exactly you have in mind to borrow the money from, won’t you?

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

Thanks. I'll pass that on, there's probably a lot of people out there that dont know just how well off they are.

Yes indeed, what is needed is people to spend more of the €87 billion held in personal deposits in the banks. Along with another €12 billion in State Savings. Although the Socialist Party in their proposal for a wealth tax said the overall total was €120 billion.

http://www.centralbank.ie/press-area/press-releases%5CPages%5CTrendsinPersonalCreditandDepositsQ12012.aspx

The total deposits held in resident credit institutions by Irish private households was €86.9 billion at end-March 2012, following a quarterly increase of 1.0 per cent and an annual decline of 0.7 per cent.

cosbloodymick

lugha wrote: »

Not so. The did a number of times threaten not to implement the reforms but ultimately the did, for the same reason we do, because funding would have been withdrawn if they / we do not. They did get a deal on the debt as we are likely to get too. But that is a separate issue to borrowing money for the day to day running of the country

Incorrect, Greece has been unable to implement the reforms demanded of them. Thats why they have gotten a debt write down of over 50% because they know they haven't a hope of getting all their money back no matter what reforms they make.Their debt is unsustainable as is ours. If we get a deal it will be a pittance compared to the debt write offs Greece has gotten. We are dragging our economy into the gutter in order to pay off debts that are not ours so as to be the good boy in the class and are not seeing any reward for it.
If your happy to see your government get its belly tickled by the eurocrats then keep handing over the money. Whats going on is immoral and I am not prepared to support it by voluntarily handing over whatever money the Government thinks it can squeeze out of me.

lugha

dvpower wrote: »

I see there is a government plan to deduct property tax from source from social welfare payments. Pretty serious development if it goes ahead.
If people on the dole can't escape the tax I can't see much public support for working tax evaders remaining.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1125/property-tax-social-revenue.html

That’s obviously a spoof story. Sure everybody knows that RTE are in the pocket of the government and reported the attendance figures at yesterday’s protest that they were told to.

The idea that they would initiate a FOI request to see what their controllers are up to is hardly plausible now, is it? :P

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The survey, which was carried out in the second and third week in September, predicts that the average spend per household in Ireland will be €965.80, with an average of €499.60 spent on gifts, €288.30 spent on food and drink and €177.90 spent on socialising. The average figure in Europe overall is €590.90.

thanks to the government, the last 2 years we did Secret Santa limiting budgets to E50 ea(sorry local businesses:()
this year however thanks to the boys(and before we ever heard the budget) Secret Santa has been cut out completely(sorry again Local business:(, Mrs is knitting me a wolly cap:D)

So well done Enda, you've almost managed to cancel Christmas.
Wonder how you'll get on when the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present and Future visit you on xmas eve(the Festive Troika, so to speak!:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:)

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

I see there is a government plan to deduct property tax from source from social welfare payments. Pretty serious development if it goes ahead.
If people on the dole can't escape the tax I can't see much public support for working tax evaders remaining.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1125/property-tax-social-revenue.html

Welcome back DV, good news as ever!;)

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

I am not quite clear on what your question is. Perhaps, rather than talk about buses, you could tell me what your course of action would be for the Irish economy? And if it involves us borrowing money, while abandoning efforts to deal with our deficit, you will point out who exactly you have in mind to borrow the money from, won’t you?

You expecrt me to answer Your question? Sorry Lugha, I asked You 2 days ago. If You can't be arséd to answer my question, I'm certainly not going to say anything about Yours.

gerryo777

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One upside of austerity is that some Irish people can afford to spend much more than other Europeans at Christmas. Which is a good thing in my opinion as the amount of money put away in savings and never spent is very high here.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025162.shtml

The survey, which was carried out in the second and third week in September, predicts that the average spend per household in Ireland will be €965.80, with an average of €499.60 spent on gifts, €288.30 spent on food and drink and €177.90 spent on socialising. The average figure in Europe overall is €590.90.


Another upside is that some Irish people can afford to throw away vast amounts of food.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/think-before-you-shop-the-message-as-1000--213311.html

Households are dumping up to €1,000 worth of food each year with families being urged to be less wasteful.

The most common foods binned are bread, apples, potatoes, salads, meat and fish, yoghurt and milk, and spreads and dips.

You seem to be very hung up on people throwing out bits of leftover food and what they'll spend on loved ones over christmas.

Are you The Grinch by any chance?

gerryo777

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They may be happy enough that everyone registering now is putting an extra €27 into the coffers compared to what I paid. And our friends in the legal profession will pick up some nice money in future sorting out the legalities.

http://www.ohod.ie/index.php/property-conveyancing/property-law-news/104-pay-the-household-charge-or

Death and taxes

The Act provides that should a householder die with an outstanding Household Charge, the personal representatives shall pay it within three months of the grant of representation issuing. The interest and charges will be paused for three months after the grant, but after that the estate will have to bear the cost of additional late payment fees.


Burden on the Property

Again the Goverment has provided an elegant if infuriating way of ensuring the Household Charge is collected. The amount owing, complete with late payment fees and interest will be a burden on the property for a period of 12 years from the date it first became due and owing. So it becomes in essence a charge on your property, and will need to be removed come time to sell or remortgage with a Bank.

This is reinforced by section 10 which provides that before the completion of any sale all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest shall be paid. Failure to do this is a criminal offence and not only can the vendor be liable, but also the vendor’s Solicitor

You see, I won't be selling my house and when I die, hopefully not for another 40 years or so from now, it will be left to my kids.
Now, they can put off changing the title for as long as they like, it won't bother me.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

I see there is a government plan to deduct property tax from source from social welfare payments. Pretty serious development if it goes ahead.
If people on the dole can't escape the tax I can't see much public support for working tax evaders remaining.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1125/property-tax-social-revenue.html

I thought anyone on SW was exempt this tax?
Even if not I can't see this method of collection going ahead as it would put 88% of Senior citizens into serious poverty according to that article. The "grey vote" is very important.

Ghandee

bgrizzley wrote: »

Welcome back DV, good news as ever!;)

I'm just hoping he follows up by explaining that no one absolutely no one can deduct money from your pay (social/otherwise) without a court order authorising then to do so

Can dv/dx/Lugha please break it down (in simpelton terms) how an employer/ss/ an.other will deduct anything, from any ones income without said court order?

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

I see there is a government plan to deduct property tax from source from social welfare payments. Pretty serious development if it goes ahead.
If people on the dole can't escape the tax I can't see much public support for working tax evaders remaining.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1125/property-tax-social-revenue.html

Welfare payments including the OAP.
Do you remember what happened the last time a government fcuked around with the grey brigade?

lugha

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Incorrect, Greece has been unable to implement the reforms demanded of them.

JC Junker does not agree with you!

Indo wrote: »

Pressure for the euro zone to come up with a solution is high not just because Greece is running out of money and financial markets want a dependable solution, but because Greece has taken virtually all the steps demanded of it to cut spending, raise taxes and overhaul its economy.
"It is clear that Greece has delivered," Juncker said.

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Thats why they have gotten a debt write down of over 50% because they know they haven't a hope of getting all their money back no matter what reforms they make.Their debt is unsustainable as is ours. If we get a deal it will be a pittance compared to the debt write offs Greece has gotten. We are dragging our economy into the gutter in order to pay off debts that are not ours so as to be the good boy in the class and are not seeing any reward for it.

You are talking about debt. And we have yet to see what kind of a deal we will get on debt. The austerity that people were protesting against yesterday is because we are closing our deficit as a condition of getting money from the Troika. If we say no to any more austerity then they will simply not lend to us and we will be looking to make a 13 billion budget adjustment next week rather than a 3 billion one.
Can you do what no one else here can do and find someone who will lend to us to if we continue spending on social welfare and public sector wages at levels set during an unprecedented boom?
And even if you could, do you really think it would be a good idea to rack up 10s of billions of public debt every year? (And unlike the bank stuff, that most definitely would be our debt!)

cosbloodymick wrote: »

If your happy to see your government get its belly tickled by the eurocrats then keep handing over the money.

I think their strategy, like that of the previous government, is basically to stay on-side with Europe. It will be a long time before we know if this approach has worked but if you want to try a different approach you need to have, well, a different approach.

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Whats going on is immoral and I am not prepared to support it by voluntarily handing over whatever money the Government thinks it can squeeze out of me.

Certainly, getting lumbered with the bank debt can be described as immoral. But us crippling our children and grandchildren with public debt levels is even more immoral would you not say?

gerryo777

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm just hoping he follows up by explaining that no one absolutely no one can deduct Monday from your pay (social/otherwise) without a court order authorising then to do so

Can dv/dx/Lugha please break it down (in simpelton terms) how an employer/ss/ an.other will deduct anything, from any ones income without said court order?

I told you last night Ghandee, mention the name and it's back. Must have got the laptop back on good behaviour!

bgrizzley

tayto lover wrote: »

I thought anyone on SW was exempt this tax?
Even if not I can't see this method of collection going ahead as it would put 88% of Senior citizens into serious poverty according to that article. The "grey vote" is very important.

remember how fast they rolled back with the "Senior citizen Medical Card debacle"

this is what Kenny had to say to the old people at that protest...


Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny, addressing the mass protest meeting organised by Age Action in Dublin this morning, said that Fianna Fail in Government had made the 'biggest blunder in Irish political history' with the over 70s medical card cutback.

Wonder does he remember that, lol

Le_Dieux

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm just hoping he follows up by explaining that no one absolutely no one can deduct Monday from your pay (social/otherwise) without a court order authorising then to do so

Can dv/dx/Lugha please break it down (in simpelton terms) how an employer/ss/ an.other will deduct anything, from any ones income without said court order?

Re Lugha, join the queue Ghandee. I asked Him a question 2 days ago, He hasn't got the decency to answer me, but then retorts by expecting me to answer Him?:mad::mad::mad:

Somehow, I think You might be waiting Ghandee.

Anyhow, I'm off to bed, good night all!

Ghandee

gerryo777 wrote: »

I told you last night Ghandee, mention the name and it's back. Must have got the laptop back on good behaviour!

Like beetle juice :pac:

lugha

Le_Dieux wrote: »

You expecrt me to answer Your question? Sorry Lugha, I asked You 2 days ago. If You can't be arséd to answer my question, I'm certainly not going to say anything about Yours.

I assume there is some lesson to be learnt from your bus parable that is relevant to what we might do as a country? Wouldn't be just better to park the bus and tell me what your actual idea is?

Or perhaps you really just want to have a chat about a bus?

Le_Dieux

gerryo777 wrote: »

I told you last night Ghandee, mention the name and it's back. Must have got the laptop back on good behaviour!

He's back, now the other half of him disappears:pac: