Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

tayto lover

spygirl wrote: »

Here,here, also no property tax until the economy has stabilized and started to grow again.

Or a "Service Charge" of 650 euro per annum to include bin collection, water, drains, street lighting and cleaning etc then we would have no fight at all. Win/win situation and not an attack aimed at our homes.

donalg1

spygirl wrote: »

Here,here, also no property tax until the economy has stabilized and started to grow again.

That you Gerry!!!!!

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

Or a "Service Charge" of 650 euro per annum to include bin collection, water, drains, street lighting and cleaning etc then we would have no fight at all. Win/win situation and not an attack aimed at our homes.

Wouldn't be a bad idea but chances of getting it implemented would be slim to none id say especially when they sit down to draw up their usual list of exemptions.

spygirl

donalg1 wrote: »

That you Gerry!!!!!

No tis me, long time reading the thread but first time contributor:)

But if your referring to gerry 0007( sorry should have checked the name) enjoyed some of his posts and would support a march to lift his ban

darkhorse

Ghandee wrote: »

See they (FG) have now threatened to throw the dole on to the table for cuts if labour insist on trying to go after high earners.
Labour want to raise USC on folk making over €100k per annum, FG though say this is a breach of programme, as both parties had agreed no cuts to dole, and no tax increases during the lifetime of the coalition.

I was just singing to myself when I read you post, G. Ya know whats ironic, it was Chris De Burghs Spanish Train. We are the stakes.

donalg1

spygirl wrote: »

No tis me, long time reading the thread but first time contributor:)

But if your referring to gerry 0007( sorry should have checked the name) enjoyed some of his posts and would support a march to lift his ban

Ha ha good luck getting a decent sized protest going!

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

You original post that I responded to highlighted the difficulties that people are and will be facing because of the austerity measures that have been introduced and will be again next week. I asked if you had an alternative to these.

The only parts of your post that addressed this (i.e. cutting the cost of the political establishment etc.) would not come anywhere close to being enough to avoid the need for a very harsh budget next week.

I think that this budget should not be an austerity budget at all. We can't afford more cuts at this time and the Govt should inform the Germans of this fact. Too many austerity budgets too closely together. We need a lift.
I think that it would send out a message that is not being sent out i.e. that cutting in the same areas all the time is not working. Cutting the most vulnerable only effects the most vulnerable. Anything saved will be spent again on treating people for illnesses and depression brought on by cuts and poverty. Have you not seen the rise in suicide rates at all. The Mental Health Service and treatment centers will eat up the savings.The people at the lower end of society will suffer while the rich make more profits. 5 austerity budgets in a row is too much. We need more time.
This budget should be about generating jobs and using some of the pension funds to generate those jobs. Surely there were some good ideas from the Farmleigh think-in. We have got very poor feedback from that.

lugha

tayto lover wrote: »

I think that this budget should not be an austerity budget at all. We can't afford more cuts at this time and the Govt should inform the Germans of this fact.

Simple fact is that it doesn't really matter what we think. We have no real bargaining chips to allow us to dictate to the Troika the terms of the loans that they are giving to us.

And even if we did have the economic independence to suspend these measures, it is not at all clear to me that stacking up a massive public debt (which would be the cost of no-austerity) is a preferable outcome.

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

Simple fact is that it doesn't really matter what we think. We have no real bargaining chips to allow us to dictate to the Troika the terms of the loans that they are giving to us.

And even if we did have the economic independence to suspend these measures, it is not at all clear to me that stacking up a massive public debt (which would be the cost of no-austerity) is a preferable outcome.

If we generated employment then surely we would have more people paying taxes, happier people with a lighter weight around their necks. The Troika should be made accept that this is too much too soon. I think the Greeks and Spanish will let them know that in time too. They are also pushing to have their debt spread out. It makes sense.

lugha

tayto lover wrote: »

If we generated employment then surely we would have more people paying taxes, happier people with a lighter weight around their necks. The Troika should be made accept that this is too much too soon. I think the Greeks and Spanish will let them know that in time too. They are also pushing to have their debt spread out. It makes sense.

Our immediate problem is not our debt, it is out deficit.

darkhorse

paddy147 wrote: »

So why cant/wont the goverment politicians lead by example then???

Why dont they all take pay cuts,chop down their advisors salaries,stop with all these stupid and excessive perks/claims??

The goverment should lead by example and stop filling up their own pockets even more

Well, paddy, there is a poster or two on here who will probably asnwer that by telling you that it would'nt make any difference to the economy whatsoever, but dont take it to mean that he dos'ent think they should'nt take a cut. By the way, I also think that they should lead by example.

spygirl

lugha wrote: »

Simple fact is that it doesn't really matter what we think. We have no real bargaining chips to allow us to dictate to the Troika the terms of the loans that they are giving to us.

And even if we did have the economic independence to suspend these measures, it is not at all clear to me that stacking up a massive public debt (which would be the cost of no-austerity) is a preferable outcome.

But we do have the ability to negotiate for different terms. To delay or reduce the amounts to be paid to allow us the room to try and stimulate the economy, maybe even promote some growth. Small business going to the wall each week putting more on the dole jut means we are stacking up problems further down the road which may mean we can't afford to pay anyway.
We do have a bargaining chip by the way. Imagine if the protest last Saturday becomes a movement which grows, heaven forbid actually brings about another change of government. The next lot might just decide to tell them to get stuffed and they get nothing. Could be in their interest to renegotiate the terms.

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

Our immediate problem is not our debt, it is out deficit.

And that is mainly caused by the cost of the PS which is being dealt with and coming down steadily. They can't complain about us spreading it out a bit. A bit of a moratorium would give us breathing space. It's a race to the bottom as it is as we cannot sustain all these cuts with no employment being generated.

donalg1

paddy147 wrote: »

Mr Kenny told me on my telivision,that I was not to blame for all of this.

Thats great........(but the man is still making me pay for it,as if it was and is my fault)







So why cant/wont the goverment politicians lead by example then???

Why dont they all take pay cuts,chop down their advisors salaries,stop with all these stupid and excessive perks/claims??

The goverment should lead by example and stop filling up their own pockets even more

Even if they took a cut of ten grand people would say "sure they still get 80 plus the rest so they aren't really leading by example", and they sure as hell wont give themselves more of a cut than that so chances of them doing the right thing and leading by example are pretty slim.

Would you cut your own pay by ten plus grand if you could avoid it?

tayto lover

donalg1 wrote: »

Even if they took a cut of ten grand people would say "sure they still get 80 plus the rest so they aren't really leading by example", and they sure as hell wont give themselves more of a cut than that so chances of them doing the right thing and leading by example are pretty slim.

Would you cut your own pay by ten plus grand if you could avoid it?

Well if their not prepared to take cuts it's a bit bold expecting less well off people to take them. Some of them are creaming it with secretarial allowances, office allowances and huge mileage while filling the positions with family members.

darkhorse

bgrizzley wrote: »

it reminds me of that song where the Devil and Jesus are playing poker for the souls of the people, only there aint no Jesus...

Apparently you listened to Chris de Burgh too, bgrizzley.:)

lugha

spygirl wrote: »

But we do have the ability to negotiate for different terms.

Well yes, I suppose we do have the ability. I have the ability to ask my bank to write off my loans and my employer to double my salary! I don’t think my ability will be enough to do the trick though.

spygirl wrote: »

We do have a bargaining chip by the way. Imagine if the protest last Saturday becomes a movement which grows, heaven forbid actually brings about another change of government. The next lot might just decide to tell them to get stuffed and they get nothing.

They get nothing??? They??? You do realise that they are the ones lending us the 13 billion to cover out deficit at present? And if they did not lend it to us we would be looking to make a 13 billion budget adjustment next week rather than a 3 billion one. Now that really would bring about economic Armageddon!

And the Greeks did try the big protest thing but ultimately the accepted, more or less, the terms that were dictated to them. If they didn’t, they would not have been bailed out. And neither will we.

spygirl

I was happier when they did look they were leading by example, ministerial paycuts, capping of wages, nordic model of social welfare,promises to get rid of upwards only rent reviews etc. genuinely thought they were going to bring about change.All they have delivered so far is more of the same and in some cases worse

spygirl

lugha wrote: »

Well yes, I suppose we do have the ability. I have the ability to ask my bank to write off my loans and my employer to double my salary! I don’t think my ability will be enough to do the trick though.

No but if your not in a position to service the loans due to your circumstances it is sensible to renegotiate the terms with you.

They get nothing??? They??? You do realise that they are the ones lending us the 13 billion to cover out deficit at present? And if they did not lend it to us we would be looking to make a 13 billion budget adjustment next week rather than a 3 billion one. Now that really would bring about economic Armageddon

!

Fully aware of it. Also aware that some of the alternatives say they would quite happily go to that ledge and jump wholeheartedly.

And the Greeks did try the big protest thing but ultimately the accepted, more or less, the terms that were dictated to them. If they didn’t, they would not have been bailed out. And neither will we.

But they did get a write down on some of it and the terms were renegotiated, something we apparently won't get as our case is different according to Mr. Noonan.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

I’m guessing the answer to my question then is no, he doesn’t tell us who will continue to give us money with no strings attached.

Does it really matter at this point, what answer you get from any poster, cause you either dont want to read a lot of the posts, or in the case of a video clip, you get bored in the middle of it.

lugha

darkhorse wrote: »

Does it really matter at this point ....

No it doesn’t matter in the slightest. I know full well nobody in their right mind would lend money to us were we to decide that we were going to cheerfully ignore our massive deficit and just and wait and see if we can’t grow out way out of it.

Even if there was a policy change form the European power brokers (and continue to pretend if you wish that we might be able to exercise any real influence over them to move them in such a direction) I think they would still insist that we continue with efforts to close the gap.

spygirl

And the effort is being made to tackle it, but we also need some breathing space

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

You original post that I responded to highlighted the difficulties that people are and will be facing because of the austerity measures that have been introduced and will be again next week. I asked if you had an alternative to these.

The only parts of your post that addressed this (i.e. cutting the cost of the political establishment etc.) would not come anywhere close to being enough to avoid the need for a very harsh budget next week.

You know, lugha, anyone looking in at the debate would actually think that you are a proponent of austerity. Imagine, if you could channel all that enthusiasm into advocating the need for growth in the economy, we could nearly send you to the dail as part of a boards delegation. But, on the other hand, when the government dismisses one of their own party when they come up with good ideas. Ah well, it was just a thought.

paddy147

donalg1 wrote: »

Even if they took a cut of ten grand people would say "sure they still get 80 plus the rest so they aren't really leading by example", and they sure as hell wont give themselves more of a cut than that so chances of them doing the right thing and leading by example are pretty slim.

Would you cut your own pay by ten plus grand if you could avoid it?

Thing is that I didnt go on tele telling Ireland and its people that it wasnt their fault.

If we are all in this together,than why does Mr Kenny and the goverment not show leadership and lead by example and take some cuts,cut out all of these unbelievable TD allowences and expenses and stop breaking their own rules when it comes to advisors and salaries??


At the end of the day,are the people of Ireland not Enda Kennys boss???

Seen as "we as a country" elected him.


As another forum member pointed out a few pages back,the goverment politicians are lining their pockets even more now,than before.
But they are all on for taking as much as they can from the people of Ireland.



Oh and I allready took 2 big pay cuts from my employeers,but obviously thats not enough for Mr Kenny and Mr Noonan,and Mr Gilmore.


So when will the goverment minsiters take their BIG PAY CUTS????????

paddy147

And now to say that they will cut SW payments on budget day and also take property tax from whats left of the SW too.



I really dont understand the thinking or of any of the goverment ministers who think that this is perfectly ok to do.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Our immediate problem is not our debt, it is out deficit.

OK, it is our deficit which is the problem. Why have we got such a deficit, because there is not enough people paying tax. Why is there not enough people paying tax, because there is not enough people working. Why is there not enough people working, because there is no growth. Why is there no growth, because of austerity. Well thanks for clearing that one up for me.

paddy147

Didnt the IMF recently say that austerity was not working and was not the way forward anymore.

Yet the goverment are infatuated with austerity and ramming it down all our throats,while they keep on lining their own pockets,and at our expense

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

And even if we did have the economic independence to suspend these measures, it is not at all clear to me that stacking up a massive public debt (which would be the cost of no-austerity) is a preferable outcome.

lugha wrote: »

Our immediate problem is not our debt, it is out deficit.

On the one hand, you're saying ya would prefer us not to stack up massive public debt. Then on the other hand, you're saying that our immediate problem is our deficit. So, really, is'nt it a case of, damned if we do and damned if we dont. Therefore, would you agree, my learned friend, that our politicians should put a proposal to the troika and the germans, that we as a nation on it last legs, should defer austerity and debt and put the country bact to work, which would be in everyone's interest, because, you know as well as I do, lugha, this is not going to end well financially(as a matter of fact, my 11 year old grandson knows it).

Am Chile

Labour has lost a counciller in clonmel-his reasons outlined for leaving the labour party.

I have found my position as a Cllr to be untenable in a Party that has lost its traditions and values, Labour in Government has completely turned its back on the very people it claims to represent, the four founding principles of the Party, ‘freedom, equality, community and democracy’ have not been to the forefront of the parties mind whilst making decisions in Government, this is evident by the decisions it’s taking in Government.

Labour has forgotten its founders and birthplace. Every day I have families make contact with me worrying about how their loved ones are going to be cared for with the cut in home help hours; I have students in contact with me who have had to leave college and university because of costs and lack of payment of their grants; I have people in contact with me who are losing their jobs and in fear of losing their homes, I come from a working class background and know only too well the strains that are being placed upon families and, I can no longer be a member of a party that is placing huge burdens on homes.

I see at first-hand how ‘middle Ireland’ are continuously being asked to take the burden of the pain, just because two people are working in a house does not automatically mean that they have huge incomes, or are able to manage any further cuts to their salaries. Labour seem more interested in bailing out the banks than assisting the very people who held the belief that they would be different in Government.

http://clonmelonline.com/2012/11/cllr-darren-ryan-resigns-from-labour-party/

With local elections just over a year and half away I think its a very wise move by Darren to resign a member of the Labour party that have sold out and betrayed the working class voters they claim to represent-I suspect other labour councillers will follow suit before the local elections as Labour are gonna take a heavy hit in 2014 local elections-

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Now that really would bring about economic Armageddon!

I'm sorry to disturb you up there again, but in reality, there is a lot of people in this country not terribly far from economic armageddon, and thats before the budget in December. I can just picture two muppets, any two, (we have plenty in one big house), and one saying to the other, "I really did'nt believe that the people were that badly off financially, especially after all the surveys to find out how much everybody had saved up".