Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

spygirl

Anybody else see this online petition doing the rounds regarding David MacWilliams comments on Pat Kenny show? Just wondering if anyone heard the actual piece or maybe has a link to it?

Geuze

The Beatles wrote a song about 95% MTR back in the 60s.

Both the UK and USA, and plenty other countries have generally moved away from too high MTRs.

The days of 60%-90% are long gone.

Better to have a broad tax base, with lower rates.

My suggestion: a max top MTR of 50%.

An average worker on 36k should face a MTR of no more than maybe 35-36%, that's plenty.

In Irl, after 32,800, a single person faces 52% MTR. That's crazy!!!!!

Better to broaden the tax base.

Don't tax jobs/work too much, as we want people to work.

Tax sugar, salt, saturated fats, fuel, etc. - as we want people to consume less of these things.

Geuze

Slick50,

you seem to be suggesting that labour supply and demand are not affected by ever higher MTRs.

There is lots of evidence around the world to the contrary.

Even in France this year, the proposed 75% MTR has led to some rich people planning on moving. OK, that is anecdotal evidence at the margin.

But nobody wants to go back to the 65% MTR of the 80s in Ireland, do they??

Slick50

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, high marginal income tax rates may well lead to less work done...

People affected by a higher tax band are usually on a salary, doing less work is probably not an option. If they are not, and are on an hourly rate, they are not refusing extra work because of a few pounds extra tax.

Geuze wrote: »

MNCs are now suggesting that even though our CT rate is low, our MTR is getting too high to attract mobile executive talent.

WAYS.... what are you saying! This sounds like the old mantra, "you have to pay these rates to attract the right people..." look where that got us.

Geuze wrote: »

We can collect more tax without the excessive damage caused by too high MTRs.

It worked before.???

Geuze

The UK reversed their 2010 increased top rate of 50% - back down to 45%

The UK tax authorities reviewed the impact of the increase and found that the higher rate was “a highly distortionary form of taxation” which elicited “a considerable behavioural response” among tax payers.

Revenue from the higher rate was much lower than anticipated and may actually have had a negative effect on tax revenues.

Geuze

It didn't work before.

Sure some of the biggest protests in Irl were the tax marches of the 80s, against high MTRs.

If we want to collect more tax, and especially off higher earners, then there are better ways to do it than impose very high MTRs.

Slick50

The FF/rainbow government increased our vat rate by a half of one percent, and found it had a negative affect, thus reversing it. They felt they had passed the point of diminishing returns.

Our current government increased it by two percent. How is that going?

We are constantly being told, by the people it would affect, that you can't be taxing the wealthy. They'll all up and leave, quit there jobs... and go where, we are also being told this is a global recession.

Slick50

Geuze wrote: »

It didn't work before.

Sure some of the biggest protests in Irl were the tax marches of the 80s, against high MTRs.

It seen us through the last recession... to the celtic tiger. Yes there were huge protests, mainly because people were being brought into the top tax bands at such a low wage.

Geuze wrote: »

If we want to collect more tax, and especially off higher earners, then there are better ways to do it than impose very high MTRs.

What are they?

Geuze

OK, reduce many of the tax reliefs, for a start.

The back page of a Form 12 lists loads of them.

That should save up to 2-4bn.

Seriously reduce pension tax reliefs that higher earners enjoy.



Also, I am for a 50% MTR, but only on high earners, not people on 32,800.

Geuze

Slick50 wrote: »

We are constantly being told, by the people it would affect, that you can't be taxing the wealthy. They'll all up and leave, quit there jobs... and go where, we are also being told this is a global recession.

We have increased taxes on high earners (PRSI ceiling abolished), but we could do more.

Don't allow tax exiles, take their passport and citizenship off them.

Abolish property and pension tax reliefs for high earners.

Abolish all tax relief schemes used by high earners.

Introduce a MINIMUM EFFECTIVE TAX rate on earnings, even if you use loads of reliefs (done already, but more could be done).


HOWEVER

to close the huge fiscal deficit, everybody will have to pay more tax, including a property tax.

Slick50

Geuze wrote: »

HOWEVER

to close the huge fiscal deficit, everybody will have to pay more tax, including a property tax.

We are not going to agree on this.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Or come down even more.

Or go up even more.:eek:

Am Chile

[PHP][/PHP]

Earlier tonight a protest took place outside the dail to coincide with a Clare Dalys X case bill-over

1,000 people were protesting outsise. the evening news reported from the opposite side of the building so as not to show protests-and some people say on here its just a conspiracy theory to accuse rte of playing down protests.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

I don't know exactly what qualifications are required to do a job that is pretty much unprecedented in Irish history, but he seems to be making a pretty good job of it.

I dont know either what qualifications one would need. Does anybody here on the thread happen to remember what qualifications did they look for when they advertised the position. As regards of him making a good job of it, I cant agree or disagree with you on that.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

After all your time on this thread, why do you need to ask that question!

After all your time on this thread, why do you still answer my question with another question.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

After all your time on this thread, why do you still answer my question with another question.

Mine, like yours, was rhetorical.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The only thing I don't see (surprisingly from a socialist analysis) is a wide ranging private property tax. This is the tried and tested model giving a guaranteed long term income stream not easily open to evasion in practically every other developed country.

Just as a matter of interest, and this is a genuine question, dx, but how many countries, that you know of, whose people pay property tax, without any return, or am i being naive in thinking that any impending property tax would cover bin services, etc.

darkhorse

Geuze wrote: »

If we want to collect more tax, and especially off higher earners, then there are better ways to do it than impose very high MTRs.

So tell me, what is your opinion of a home owner on a minimum wage, who is expected to pay €100 HHC v a home owner who earns €100,000, but because his/her house is in an unfinished estate, is exempt payment.

darkhorse

Geuze wrote: »

We have increased taxes on high earners (PRSI ceiling abolished), but we could do more.

Don't allow tax exiles, take their passport and citizenship off them.

Abolish property and pension tax reliefs for high earners.

Abolish all tax relief schemes used by high earners.

Introduce a MINIMUM EFFECTIVE TAX rate on earnings, even if you use loads of reliefs (done already, but more could be done).


HOWEVER

to close the huge fiscal deficit, everybody will have to pay more tax, including a property tax.

Ya had a great post there, till ya came to the HOWEVER.
Even if I wanted to pay a property tax, on top of a mortage, on top of building and content insurance, on top of maintainence and repair costs, would you agree that it is definitely the wrong time economically. To use a harsh analogy, I think it would be like having a gang of thugs beat up homeless people, just for the sake of making their plight much worse than it already is.

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, and this is a genuine question, dx, but how many countries, that you know of, whose people pay property tax, without any return, or am i being naive in thinking that any impending property tax would cover bin services, etc.

I will tell you about England where property tax brings in something like £25 billion annually. Even though the charge is £1200 on average this does not even cover water/sewerage and when you add those charges you are getting on for the equivalent of €2000. But then that only covers about one quarter of the services, most of the other three quarters people pay for through their taxes to central government which distributes grants to local authorities. And central government grants are sometimes not enough. So €2000 for them €380 for me (bins and HHC) who is worse off, you decide?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-20424898

What do you mean "without any return", do you literally mean without any return?

Are you being naive? Depends on your reason for thinking bin services would be paid for in the property tax, I haven't heard anything about it either way. I would say you are being naive if you think you can continue to break the law and that it will not end up costing you more. And you would be particularly naive to believe anyone who tells you that HHC will be defeated.

Tell me about some other country with no property tax and how badly off we are in comparison, genuine question.

dvpower

Appears to be some leaking on the details of the new property tax.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/property-tax-why-city-dwellers-will-pay-more-3309796.html

donalg1

I see they are drawing up a list of exemptions too, why cant everyone be liable why the need for exemptions, absolute sh1te, anyone solely dependent on social welfare will be exempt, dont see how that is fair to have a blanket exemption such as that I know of people on social welfare better off than I am.

Bullseye1

Interesting. Self assessment on a market that no one knows what their house is worth as there is little or no movement in house sales. With the treat of penalties if you get the figure wrong people will be scared into employing auctioneers and valuers to make their declaration. Guess what Phil Hogan is?

Also interesting that local Authorites will be allowed set their own rates. Expect your bill to increase substantially in the coming years as the price of airline tickets increase for those nice holidays the councillors and county manager take.

In the coming years, though, this urban-rural imbalance may be alleviated when councils set their own rates as services are cheaper to provide in cities.

Bullseye1

donalg1 wrote: »

I see they are drawing up a list of exemptions too, why cant everyone be liable why the need for exemptions, absolute sh1te, anyone solely dependent on social welfare will be exempt, dont see how that is fair to have a blanket exemption such as that I know of people on social welfare better off than I am.

There will always be exemptions in this country when you have socialists running the show. Socialism breeds a level of entitlement.

donalg1

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There will always be exemptions in this country when you have socialists running the show. Socialism breeds a level of entitlement.

Too right and nothing worse than a Socialist in charge.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Interesting. Self assessment on a market that no one knows what their house is worth as there is little or no movement in house sales. With the treat of penalties if you get the figure wrong people will be scared into employing auctioneers and valuers to make their declaration. Guess what Phil Hogan is?

What kind of warped logic is that!!!

If they went with an external assessment system, that would involve a huge boom for auctioneers and valuers and you'd be on here making exactly the same point.

digzy

I know this wont be popular!
While none of us like paying tax i'd be much happier with a property tax than having to pay more income tax. It's so frustrating seeing the people who have 'qualified' for med cards. I presume they've set things so they dont pay too much income tax either.

I met an accountant last week. He drives a new merc-leased tbf- has an investment property along with his own house and is a town councillor...The fcker got a med card last month:rolleyes: At least the likes of him cant dodge a property tax as they can do others.

dvpower

donalg1 wrote: »

I see they are drawing up a list of exemptions too, why cant everyone be liable why the need for exemptions, absolute sh1te, anyone solely dependent on social welfare will be exempt, dont see how that is fair to have a blanket exemption such as that I know of people on social welfare better off than I am.

Not quite.

Few exemptions will be available -- but homeowners who are unable to pay will be able to apply for a deferral, under plans to be announced in next week's Budget.

People will be able to apply to defer the tax (after a means test), a very different thing.

tayto lover

Will the Government ministers who are availing of Tax Breaks for owning second homes in Dublin be exempt the Property Tax? I heard the end of a discussion on LMFM Radio this morning which stated that they would be exempt. If so then it's nothing short of a disgrace especially when they got cheap loans to buy the houses in the first place.

Do not as I do, do as I say.

There should be an end to many of the "suit ourselves" tax breaks too.

Just found a link to the Govt Minister's Tax Breaks. Apparently SF asked a Dail Question on it.
I vaguely remember Enda Kenny criticising the FF Govt over the same thing years ago and now his own crowd are doing likewise. 6,500 euro a year saved --- nice if you can get away with it. We don't know the half of it. Perks everywhere for themselves.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ministers-tax-breaks-dublin-homes-692938-Nov2012/

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

Not quite.


People will be able to apply to defer the tax (after a means test), a very different thing.

Oh, a means test.
A means test like the one FG were unable to put in place for the childrens allowance......